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12:00 PM
@HaskellCamargo so everyone that isn't an academic is a codemonkey?
 
Purely functional languages like Haskell, operate on a totally different playing field than languages like say C++ and Java where safety and purity isn't exactly conducive to productivity.
 
I see, and I would never use a pure language to achieve computations with side effects, such as a GUI. I'm not crazy enough, guy!
 
theory <-- good developers --> pragma
 
@HaskellCamargo another buttheart vomit emission post?
 
12:01 PM
If you judge it before reading it, maybe yes.
 
dude, you made 1 commit and added like 12 lines.
 
no, I'm currently reading it
 
@r3wt Saw your web socket question - you looked into that yet? It was like a year ago - what was your decision?
 
@Jimbo which question?
 
I'm contributor on it, not the owner.
https://github.com/haskellcamargo/ExtendedZPL
And I'm currently rewriting this in Haskell, generating the AST by Haskell's algebraic data types.
 
12:03 PM
@r3wt Actually the ones I know work at Microsoft.
 
the world is wrong, let's fix it
 
I don't know any serious Haskell guys at facebook, but that's not to say that there aren't any. Just that I haven't met any of them.
 
@r3wt Your web socket one on programmers
 
Haskell guys are incomprehensible and depressive attic guys, and I confirm that.
 
@Jimbo ended up writing something in node. kind of sucks though. i'm currently looking at primus/sockjs like libraries.
 
12:05 PM
@HaskellCamargo well reading it I see there's more against prototype base OOP then against OOP itself
 
one thing i can't get right in the implementation is TLS. it drops alot of frames
 
@HaskellCamargo I don't find them to be incomprehensible at all, actually. Most of them are very accomplished Computer Scientists holding impressive patents and working at prestigious companies and can hold very lengthy intellectual conversations, which I find to be quite enjoyable. Not depressing at all.
 
the best thing to do when you find yourself in a 12 foot hole is to stop digging
 
That was sarcasm (about haskellers, not about OO, take the truth), but...
 
@r3wt Or just keep digging until you reach the bottom?
The hole must have a bottom, right?
 
12:08 PM
well if you only have 32 bit dirt eventually you can dig yourself to the top right?
 
What you can't wrap-around a 64-bit integer?
 
you can it just takes longer. about twice as long, or so ive heard
 
OK, enough for me, skipped to the last three paragraphs and what I think this is what I called it earlier with the addition of 'from the looking through the prism of functional programming fanboy'
 
I dig, you dig, he digs... This is not beautiful, but it's deep.
 
You want beautiful close the blinds, shut the door, and hide under the covers. The real world is ugly.
Deal with it.
 
12:11 PM
We can try to make it better.
Or at least not so bad.
 
Thats kind of why were here right?
 
Uhhh, I don't know about you guys, but I'm here because I have nothing better to do on a Tuesday morning.
 
One of my objectives is to make PHP better, seriously.
 
Hey hey
 
12:13 PM
OMG, look who it is
 
ahoy hoy
 
legend in the house, what what
 
Don't you believe monads are useful enough?
 
i don't even understand what a monad is, and i feel like i can admit that
 
Well, if you don't do a lot of functional programming you probably don't care.
 
12:15 PM
Haskell, how do you propose we make PHP better?
 
It is an easy concept, but most of academics take it harder.
 
IMO: OOP does sell as it's efficient. functional programming - occasionally. If you use that as a hobby or for academic purposes - nice & have fun it's all that matters, but will you make as much profit from it? I doubt. Use it in real world apps? I doubledoubt
 
we've all got our own wishlists, curious what yours contains
 
Please, read the section "Introduction": rawr.readthedocs.org
I'm not saying to kill OOP!
I'm just saying it is not well designed enough, I also work with it!
 
then clarify what you are saying
yeah, we all know that dude
 
12:16 PM
@SergeyTelshevsky I don't know man, the Math guys and Data Scientists seem to be all about the functional stuff.
 
i wouldn't mind optional type safety
 
Functional and OOP are extremely similar. What most people write tho is not "OOP"
 
@r3wt It's a feed which adds github releases of the people in here to this room
 
Then again, they're just about the only ones I've ever worked with that take functional paradigms seriously.
 
@r3wt Where do you get that?
 
12:17 PM
I take it seriously in academic purposes.
But fp is not ready for most part of the market.
 
@Sherif that's what I meant with the word 'occasionally'
 
Although it has beautiful and useful concepts.
 
@PeeHaa i was trying to see if my release from last night showed up in your app and browsed to a page. let me find the url.
 
@HaskellCamargo lol
 
Believe, theses concepts are useful when designing a programming language.
 
12:18 PM
someone post that knowledge infographic again
 
@HaskellCamargo sorry, but why do you promote functional programming at all if we started this discussion on prototype based programming?
 
What the hell are you talking about?! How exactly javascript is not ready for market?
 
That's the truth! I also discussed with another haskeller who said that Haste was ready to replace LiveScript in a compile-to-js environment.
Because we took on it.
By FP, I mean (almost) pure FP, Teresko.
 
@PeeHaa when you go to the feedr page, click the second row of the table. the one with no title. feedr.pieterhordijk.com/feeds/26/n-a
 
JS is beautiful, although LiveScript corrects some issues.
 
12:20 PM
nevermind, it occurs no matter what table is clicked.
 
Pure FP lives in books
 
JS is beautiful?
 
By LiveScript, I mean: livescript.net
Is beautiful for the market.
Yeah, it has several issues yet, most of language does.
 
@tereško THIS.
 
@ircmaxell care to clarify that comment?
 
12:21 PM
Was ignoring these type of concepts in compiler design that PHP became a mess in its core implementation, that's the truth.
[/sarcasm]
 
@r3wt ?
 
"what most people write is not OOP tho"
 
@r3wt People use functional programming a lot the time....they just aren't zealots about it, and try to force functional programming where it's not useful.
2
 
That's true. They think they write OOP. The internal concepts with FP are a few similar.
 
@HaskellCamargo PHP is a mess, but it's a mess that's gained critical mass. That's a lot more than you can say for non-messy languages that nobody really uses.
 
12:23 PM
@r3wt OO is about messages, not objects. It's about polymorphic dispatch, which you can do completely without the concept of an object. People have bastardized the term over the years to imply that it's somehow about creating object abstractions and classes that's important. It's not.
2
 
I believe "ignorance is bliss" is a fitting proverb here.
 
Do you justify a good design by that, Sherif?
 
No, but who cares about good design when you can get shit done.
That's, sadly, how the real world works some times. Not always, but more often than not.
 
@ircmaxell Thanks, having reading to do.
 
Big projects care about good design. Facebook did care about that when had to write Hack.
We are not getting to the point.
 
12:24 PM
That's almost amusing.
 
Quality !== Mass Usage nor GetShitDone.
 
You do realize that facebook's mantra is "break shit and move fast", right?
That literally means they don't care about design at all.
They actually care about getting things done.
 
Keep in mind that in real world your code will have aspects of procedural, functional and object-oriented paradigms
 
@Sherif do you think that the effort to maintain backward compatibility is a factor in keeping it from evolving at the rate most of us would desire?
 
But real world doesn't mean it has to be bad code, guys.
 
12:26 PM
No, but sometimes that is the consequence of getting something done.
 
Why exactly are you here?
 
"done is better than perfect"
 
@tereško Only if he compromises his beliefs....
 
Gotta chime in here guys, I hear far too often that the real world gets in the way of good code... gotta hit deadlines etc
 
12:27 PM
@r3wt You mean PHP?
 
yes sir**
 
@r3wt I cannot see your feeds :) You are the admin when you create a feed
 
It's our jobs, as professionals, to strive to get that perfection, and to say "no" when something is going to be half-assed.
4
 
Because I believe PHP can have mass usage and yet have a good solution, a good design.
 
@r3wt Probably. BC is always a bottleneck of innovation.
 
12:27 PM
Was your intention to spread light to PHP peasants?
 
@PeeHaa how can i create a feed?
 
No, my intention is to help PHP community, as much as I love it (not its design).
 
@ircmaxell Man, where'd you find that little gem.
 
It's our job. Not just get shit done, but get good shit done.
That's a nice aritcle, @ircmaxell.
 
12:29 PM
our job?
 
@HaskellCamargo PHP is a language made exactly for one reason: get shit done fast.
 
It doesn't mean that fast should be synonim of "in any way".
 
@ircmaxell thanks
 
@HaskellCamargo fast means
 
@r3wt Login -> Go to "Add feed" (under actions) -> give it a name and add repos -> click save
 
12:31 PM
5 mins ago, by Sherif
"done is better than perfect"
 
@Sherif c2 is a really good place for reading about design shit
 
No, it doesn't.
I get shit done fast in LiveScript, but secure and useful.
 
But if you want your repo added to the room 11 regulars feed in here you have to give me the repo name / url and I will add it @r3wt
 
You are really ignoring all technical concepts.
 
@HaskellCamargo go and troll javascript room instead, please
 
12:33 PM
@PeeHaa should i send you a pm as not to link bomb/self promote
 
I'm not here to troll, but PHP community must not be so ignorant to ignore what is in its face!
 
Meh you only have 3 repos right?
 
@HaskellCamargo Are you suggesting that PHP doesn't get shit done fast in a secure and useful way?
 
In a secure way, definetivaly not.
PHP isn't secure and its type system is an acident.
 
I see. If the hammer doesn't hit the nail on the head, blame the hammer...
 
12:34 PM
let's not feed the trolls ...
 
Will you hide that?
I'm really trying to solve this, I code for that, but you hide the problems.
 
Hail the Prophet
2
 
You're trying to solve PHP's insecurities?
 
Don't keep in "if it works, don't touch".
 
Want to solve something, make an RFC, or stfu
 
12:36 PM
Prophpet. Might make a good project name.
 
You really didn't understand what I mean.
 
Last I check PHP powered some of the world's largest web sites and I don't recall the world exploding due to PHP's security problems. So... do you think maybe you're exaggerating the scope of the problem just a smidgen?
 
Are you negating PHP has big security issues? Really?
You work on core of the language and hides that?
 
@HaskellCamargo PHP has big security issues that you know of and are not in the progress of being fixed??
 
Wordpress
 
12:38 PM
ping @PeeHaa
 
@HaskellCamargo Name some?
 
@DaveRandom Yo homeboy
 
Room owner can now kick users
 
Oh no
 
you can build reasonably secure php websites with basic common sense
 
12:39 PM
... just saying
 
@PeeHaa yo dawg, I heard you like not putting DB schemas in repos, so I had to ask you where the DB schema for Feedr is
 
/kick PeeHaa
 
\kick PeeHaa
 
> The user has been kicked and cannot return for 1 minute.
@Fabor :D
 
Name some!? Do I need? phpsadness.com
 
12:39 PM
Couldn't refuse :P
 
It leads you to make workaround.
 
@DaveRandom Let me grab it
 
Sorry, but that's true.
 
@HaskellCamargo Everyone has security issues. PHP is the least of our BIG security issues. You have far more serious problems out there like social engineering, government attacks, and shit like heartbleed which puts a much broader circumference around security than anything you can pin directly on PHP.
 
> Spend a bit of time reading what others are talking about before speaking up yourself - try not to interrupt active conversations!
 
12:40 PM
hehehehhe
 
You get a nice 1 minute ban after being kicked too :P
Wonder if it increments.
 
:D
 
What a user excuse, @Sherif.
 
@HaskellCamargo really... really? That's all you can come up with?
 
We all design languages. Why do we really ignore that?
 
12:40 PM
Ah what now?
 
@Fabor How bad do you want to know it? ;)
 
Let's go for it.
 
Neh I'm afraid it will be long
 
posted on May 26, 2015 by r3wt

first stable release. using it in production :-)

posted on May 26, 2015 by r3wt

release had some problems i had to work out. 1.0.1 is stable.

 
@HaskellCamargo how many commercial projects did you design and made?
 
12:41 PM
How much longer could it be? 1 minute to 1 day seems drastic.
 
whoa thats pretty neat @PeeHaa
 
Are you sure I can kick you again @Fabor?
 
Hmmm, maybe we should just read where it says rather than testing :P
 
@PeeHaa You sound like windows
 
12:42 PM
lol
 
@Fabor Agreed :)
 
I'm currently working in a preprocessor for PHP to get shit done with a good syntactic and semantic design on user level.
 
@Patrick :P
@tereško lol!
 
ok, off to catch an airplane
later
 
@tereško Where did you read about room owners being able to kick?
Later @ircmaxell
 
12:43 PM
@ircmaxell Laters
 
Somewhere
 
@HaskellCamargo tell you what, people in this room are stubborn, but you may try explaining that stuff here
 
@HaskellCamargo instead of getting shit done during that time? there's an xkcd for that...
 
:)
 
@HaskellCamargo Mean while people are out there doing practical things with PHP and not paying attention to your unperfected toy that you'll probably be tweaking and streamlining in a lab for years and the others will have come up with more pragmatic technologies that render your "syntactic sugar" moot and uninteresting.
... just saying...
 
12:45 PM
Now I see why PHP keeps thus.
 
Because it works?
 
@PeeHaa I vote we kick @tereško twice to find out :P
 
22 hours ago, by Danack
> I'm really disappointed that more programmers don't get actively involved in reading endless threads about how to subvert Haskell's type system to accomplish basic shit you can do in other languages. But I guess that's the lazy, ignorant, careless world we live in: the so-called 'real' world."
 
If you want a pre-processor for PHP, just use the CPP. It would work just as well with PHP and you wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.
 
12:46 PM
I know most users of PHP defend the language without knowing its design, but I didn't expect these things of you.
Ah, for sure. I'll use C++ for web.
I can do it, but it's not the correct technology for it, in the moment, pure.
 
@HaskellCamargo Go do your unproductive things and let us talk about productive stuff instead. Thanks
 
You can keep good design and productivity: github.com/haskellcamargo/rawrlang
 
i enjoy smelling my own farts too
 
@HaskellCamargo please search "php sucks" in logs of this chat room, you presumptuous arse
 
I'm improductive, but just because I'm a procrastinator, yay.
 
12:48 PM
@HaskellCamargo Woah, I can see laravel rewritten in this
 
@HaskellCamargo show me something big built with it... oh wait
 
google "Haxl"
 
In pré-alpha stage? No, it's not ready for production yet.
 
even rebranding, Lawlavel
 
... writing from phone is hard
 
12:48 PM
@Fabor yes it does
 
@ircmaxell Ah mystery solved thanks.
 
@HaskellCamargo it also has a very ugly syntax
 
Thanks, broh. Wasn't we talking about bad designs just now?
 
@Patrick but it artistic \m/
 
@HaskellCamargo Not C++, the CPP
 
12:51 PM
@tereško for artisans
 
> Yes. We expect community members to treat each other with respect … even when they don't deserve it. - Chat FAQ
 
I though you were all grown enough to understand that.
I don't know what to say, just feel.
 
@SergeyTelshevsky You misread it, it's actually pronounced "Art-is-anal".
 
As a sidenote, there was 18-wheeler in a ditch on it's roof just now
 
@SergeyTelshevsky I think you meant lawawful
 
12:52 PM
/me is on bus
 
@tereško where?
 
@ircmaxell, you have a nice monads library too.
I'm writing a PHP preprocessor with basis on xBase proglangs, such as Harbour or Foxpro: github.com/vszakats/harbour-core/blob/master/doc/pp.txt
 
@SergeyTelshevsky do you know A9 Road?
 
Why do these pure functional proponent bastards come in here and stir the pot while we're trying to write guestbooks and visitor counters?
9
 
12:54 PM
Just curious, what's so awful about Laravel? I've used it before on a project about 2 years ago and honestly, I didn't see anything worse than what I've seen the 400 trillion other awful PHP frameworks I've used before that.
 
@tereško Liepaja I guess?
 
@Sherif That's what's wrong with it: it's just as bad as the 400 trillion other awful PHP frameworks.
 
@Sherif ^ this and that a lot of people use it and think it's the right way
 
and Taylor is a dick
 
@Dan Lugg, slim 2.6.x is the best framework ever made for php
 
12:55 PM
Yea, but that applies to just about every PHP framework I know. So ... it's well within the standard deviation.
 
@r3wt Vanilla is the best framework ever made for php
 
and now it will be destroyed and made into a mindless PSR-7 zombie framework
 
In my book that just makes it normal. Not awful.
 
I would talk about design patterns awfullness, but this would make me be banned, for sure.
 
@Sherif bad design hidden by marketing tricks like convincing people that is the real way to go
 
12:57 PM
With composer, does anyone even really care about the framework that much anymore? I just take from the framework what I need and leave the rest. Plug the holes with composer packages.
 
that's the way to go
 
Yes. The 18-wheeler was near where A9 is crossing P98.. that takes you to Talsi, @SergeyTelshevsky
 
@FlorianMargaine I flit back and forth on whether this is a good idea. There have been times when I've thought about creating a bunch of wrappers so you can do things like #if PHP_VERSION > 050600 or #if HAVE_EXT(mysqli) etc etc, but then I usually end up thinking that unless you can persuade everyone that it's a good idea to make it a standard tool then it's probably not a good idea to use it at all.
 
@SergeyTelshevsky You can't call a framework awful because people are naive.
 
slim + twig + redbean + immutable data layer = heaven
 
12:58 PM
@Sherif bad framework is awful if it promotes shit
 
@r3wt redbean? haha... good joke
 
Macros are not just #define or #if. They are so much more powerful than you think they are.
143
Q: What makes lisp macros so special

mintyReading Paul Graham's essays on programming languages one would think that lisp macros are the only way to go. As a busy developer working on other platforms, I have not had the privilege of using lisp macros. As someone who wants to understand the buzz, please explain what makes this feature so ...

 
@tereško have you heard about that accident with a school bus and a truck?
 
@Patrick whats wrong with redbean?
 
@tereško oh.. that's most likely what you have seen
 
12:58 PM
@SergeyTelshevsky Yea, but again, that applies to just about every PHP framework ever invented.
 
Yeah, it actually might
 
They all lose traction at some point.
 
@r3wt static for a start
 
@tereško this
 
@r3wt i mean... really? $book = R::find( 'book', ' rating > 4 ');
 
12:59 PM
@r3wt active record, to continue
 

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