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LoL, some people take everything too seriously :)
 
True that
 
It reminds me of a meme I've seen a few days ago. It went like this: "The world has gone so crazy that I think in the event of a zombie apocalypse there will be zombie right activists."
4
 
Laugh all you want guys, but stack exchange positions itself as serious.
You can't ask this, you can't ask that this way et cetera.
No wonder people feel a bit trapped.
 
@CMate lol
 
9:15 PM
Trapped beneath a mountain of bad questions higher than the Everest?
 
See? Told ya.
 
@CMate That ... rings true
 
You can't have it both ways.
 
Anonymous
9:30 PM
hmm, goodbye window10, welcome back windows 7.
 
Anonymous
I don't think windows10 is meant to run on older platforms.
 
Unsupported drivers?
 
Anonymous
Nah, browser-freez-fest.
 
you know, the fact there's already two questions about the removal of mysql_ shows it is working
all the E_DEPRECATEDs in the world didn't get through to a lot of people
ext/mysql disappearing WILL
and it'll make half of the garbage PHP tutorials out there useless straight away
at least until someone makes a post telling people to just install it from PECL
sigh
 
Good afternoon
 
Anonymous
9:36 PM
@Andrea yeah, you guys finally won the mysql_ war
 
I want to spell check a web page I built how do i do that, dreamweaver doesnt like it at all
 
@ircmaxell Good evening!
 
Anonymous
@JustinKaz you mean the site or the source
 
Anonymous
If you want to check the source while developing, any decent IDE will do
 
well its just an html file, so no data... but i need it to go through spellcheck
 
9:38 PM
@Andrea MySQLi still remains as far as I know, so it will still be pretty easy to write shitty code for beginners and lame tutorials.
 
Anonymous
@JustinKaz I'm pretty sure dreamweaver has that option
 
it wasn't working till i turned off live mode
 
@CMate MySQL isn't the problem and this doesn't stop you writing new, bad tutorials. But it does make many of the existing ones useless.
 
@Andrea Hope so! Still have to wait until the majority of host providers update to achieve that...
 
Yeah, but it's a start.
@CMate Maybe PHP beginners will have 7 on their own machines, so mysql_ won't work on their computer
Even though it might on their host
 
9:43 PM
@ircmaxell Good morning
@Andrea The good thing is that a PHP newbie (who is obviously using Windows) is not capable of installing a PECL extension.
 
So unless *AMP ships PHP 7 with that extension, it's not a problem
 
@NikiC yes, but XAMPP probably will include it
cries
 
It will?
 
@NikiC people who write terrible code use XAMPP, so probably
:p
 
9:46 PM
So only speculation?
 
Yes
I didn't realise what you meant by *AMP until I posted saying XAMPP
 
@Andrea Hey, I used XAMPP!
 
@NikiC Me too, but I never used it
Instead I uploaded my code directly to the production server
 
(Though of course back then I did write code that's more terrible than usual)
 
For hobby projects it's often easier to develop on local I think. So XAMPP is good to have, it's just misused; or misconfigured if it will include mysql extension.
 
9:48 PM
In 2012 when I had started to write slightly better code, I tried to patch up one of my 2010 codebases
I gave up
 
@CMate I had so many problems with XAMPP
Nowadays things are much easier, you just download PHP zip archive and run php -S
 
php -S is great except it doesn't do directory redirection
maybe I could get that fixed in 7.1
> PHP 7 basically copies a lot of the stuff HHVM did and innovated
How true is this?
 
Source?
 
from Anthony's talk (see sidebar)
 
I see
 
9:53 PM
Wow, 247 people contributed to PHP 7?! That's amazing
> to things like PHPClasses
Is this about that PHPClasses?
 
@Andrea What's that?
@Andrea Relatively accurate
I mean, I can't say as to whether it's copied, but we now often have similar optimizations and data structures
 
PHPClasses a prehistorical way to share code phpclasses.org
 
@NikiC If you have a directory named foo, /foo won't redirect to /foo/ so if you had an index.php there, going to /foo won't show it
@NikiC Were they directly inspired?
 
@NikiC how are you?
 
@Andrea You'll have to ask Dmitry ;-)
 
10:02 PM
@Andrea not what I said
 
@ircmaxell direct quote from the talk, but I guess that might not be what you intended
 
I said HHVM drove some of the innovation that 7 benefited from (and I specified around arrays)
 
@ircmaxell uh… really? arrays?
 
re: OOP "winning", the first thing that comes to mind for me is the lack of function autoloading... functions don't fit nicely into the brave new world of Composer
I have a library that uses a class with static methods instead :/
 
@Andrea ah yeah, that's bad
 
10:05 PM
@Andrea Anthony just needs to get some free time…
 
@bwoebi yes, the bucket structure is fairly similar IIRC
 
@ircmaxell Hmm… well, might be then…
 
@ircmaxell I'm fine. But too busy :/
 
@bwoebi or @JoeWatkins to write the patch ;-)
 
I wouldn't be surprised if after the failed Zend JIT experiment they looked at HHVM and concluded the performance difference was due to the data structures
 
10:07 PM
@ircmaxell It's similar, yet different
 
@bwoebi he was working on it for 7, but I think maybe 7 changed too much since then
 
@NikiC inspired by...
 
I can't recall why
 
@ircmaxell with these things the patch is sometimes easier than the RFC…
 
@ircmaxell Yeah, just saying that HHVM is a few steps ahead ;)
 
10:08 PM
@bwoebi the rfc is done
@NikiC sure :-)
 
@ircmaxell is it final version already? thought you were still in review stage
 
They use open adressing and virtually dispatch to different array impls, so they have more compact packed arrays and can also avoid the INDIRECT crap
 
@bwoebi I am waiting on an implementation
 
@NikiC though… is the INDIRECT crap really that crappy?
 
@bwoebi I don't like it
And I think it has many latent bugs
It kinda sucks that things like count($array) are no longer reliable
count($array) is now an upper estimate of the count, not the actual count
 
10:11 PM
what the hell?!
 
;)
 
count() has changed?!
is that documented?
 
@NikiC s/not/now/ ?
 
@ircmaxell ya
 
this isn't in the manual?
 
10:12 PM
what situations is it wrong in?
 
I'm guessing it now behaves like JS's .length
but that's rather worrying
 
@Andrea that means?
 
@bwoebi a[0] = 1; a[100] = 1; a.length // 101
 
no ^^
 
noooo.....
 
10:14 PM
@ircmaxell count($GLOBALS) can be wrong
 
that'd be catastrophic …
 
count((array) $object) can be wrong
 
$ php -r '$a = []; $a[0] = 1; $a[100] = 1; var_dump(count($a));'
int(2)
oh that's relieving
 
@NikiC again, can you elaborate upon the situation that results from
 
@NikiC why?
 
10:14 PM
@NikiC that's worrying
 
@ircmaxell sure
 
and I'm not sure making count() be inaccurate without a big fat incompatibility notice is justifiable
that's going to break things
 
$a = 1;
unset($a);
var_dump(count($GLOBALS)); // off by one
The problem are INDIRECTs to UNDEFs
 
Ah
 
We account for it during serialization, because it's a real issue there. But everywhere else it's simply ignored
 
10:16 PM
uhm… when you unset() a (defined) property, is it set to UNDEF or NULL?
 
@bwoebi UNDEF
 
is it the count that's wrong? Or is it right in that context?
 
@NikiC uh… why?
 
@bwoebi that removes the property...
(alas)
 
@bwoebi Why would it be NULL? unset($o->p) is not the same as $o->p = null
@ircmaxell The count is wrong
It will be one larger than the array is
 
10:18 PM
@NikiC but a property is also NULL when you just initialize a class without setting it.
 
If you do a var_dump of it and compare the count at the top with the number of elements you'll see, it won't match
 
$ php -r 'class Foo { public $x; public $y; } $foo = new Foo; unset($foo->x); $fooArr = (array)$foo; var_dump(count($fooArr));'
int(1)
Why doesn't the bug occur here?
 
@bwoebi Well, PHP allows unsetting properties. It might be stupid, but it's allowed...
 
@NikiC you miss my point. I'm saying that maybe the array should be larger
 
@ircmaxell how? why?
 
10:20 PM
unset() shouldn't be dishonest. If it doesn't remove, it should throw a big fat error
 
you have an "a" element, that simply points to an undefined variable. I could see an argument made that it's a "null" value and hence should appear in the list.
$a = ['a' => 1]; unset($a['a']); would still result in count(0), because it's not an INDIRECT element
 
@ircmaxell So you are saying that INDIRECT elements must not be UNDEF?
That just wouldn't line up with current PHP semantics
 
@NikiC or, that we should treat INDIRECT to UNDEF as INDIRECT to NULL.
again, not saying that we should, just thinking out loud
 
on a completely unrelated matter
someday I think it'd be cool to make NikiC's How to add new (syntactic) features to PHP blog post into a talk
 
I don't agree with that. I hate that you can unset plain variables and I don't think that should be supported in the first place, but if we do support it, then unset should properly unset things, everywhere
 
10:22 PM
Bobs-MacBook-Pro-2:php-src-X bob$ ./sapi/cli/php -r 'var_dump(new class { private $a = "foo"; function __construct() { unset($this->a); $this->a = "bar"; } });'
object(class@anonymous)#1 (1) {
  ["a":"class@anonymous":private]=>
  string(3) "bar"
}
unset, but it remains private?
 
@NikiC well, in the globals case, why can't you unset the INDRECT variable as well?
 
@NikiC that's not deleting of the property…
 
@bwoebi ooh, interesting
 
@ircmaxell Because we wouldn't be able to (efficiently) keep the CV table and the symtable in sync
 
it deletes the instance property
but not the definition of it, so if you recreate it, well
 
10:24 PM
Say you unset, the INDIRECT gets dropped (which is fine - unset performance is irrelevant). Then you assign to the var again - but it's already gone from the symtable
 
@NikiC this is a case of over-optimization
 
@ircmaxell No, definitely not
 
@Andrea yeah, which is why I think it's absurd to allow IS_UNDEF here.
 
@bwoebi being able to unset such properties is absurd, yes
just make it an error or something
 
@ircmaxell If working on normal CVs required also syncing with the symtable all the time, that would have a significant effect
What HHVM does is simply have another special array implementation for $GLOBALS
Which works on a ref to the variable table
 
10:26 PM
What is INDIRECT? Is that a flag saying "my zvals are actually *zvals" or something?
 
@Andrea yeah basically
 
@NikiC Makes sense :)
 
@bwoebi This is kind of PHP, you know :P
 
@NikiC :-(
 
@NikiC then another solution should be found
 
10:27 PM
I kinda wanna lolphp this
 
@ircmaxell The solution for serialization is to do a proper count of the array (by iterating through it) if a certain flag is set
 
@Andrea I'll watch the vote count.
 
That's a bit...
@NikiC so count($a) is not always count(array_keys($a))
in this case, you should iterate if the array contains indirect elements
 
which may be horribly inefficient ;-)
 
WHO CARES
 
10:31 PM
HEHE
 
this obsession with efficiency is fine until you sacrifice consistency. Which we have done here
 
@ircmaxell yes
 
phpversion() >= "7.0.0" or die();
 
@Andrea version_compare
 
@NikiC which is batshit insane
 
10:32 PM
@ircmaxell oh, I agree. I just disagree about the way you wanted to fix that (iterate...)
 
@bwoebi my point is it should be fixed
 
@bwoebi It would mostly only apply to $GLOBALS
Which is no big loss ;)
 
and my suggestion there was only to iterate if it contained INDIRECT elements
 
I wonder why it doesn't work for (array) $object
 
10:34 PM
@Andrea correct subreddit :-P
 
@NikiC (array)$object doesn't return an object's hashtable
If it did, you'd get a segfault if you accessed one of the hashtable's INDIRECTs after the object was freed, presumably?
 
@Andrea well… in this case we could properly HANDLE_NUMERIC() too, if we anyway get a copy…?
 
@bwoebi we probably should, but that would slow (array) down
sobs
 
@Andrea did you really expect the visibility information to disappear?
 
@marcio Not really
 
10:37 PM
@Andrea ah, if object has default_properties_count we duplicate the HT instead of increfing it
 
But it's amusing
 
@Andrea so?
 
@NikiC that makes sense
 
@Andrea Yeah, that makes sense, didn't think of that
 
@ircmaxell not my objection, I think I might have heard someone say it before
might have imagined it
 
10:39 PM
we should NEVER trade FUBAR behavior for more speed. That's up to people building on top of PHP to decide. The language MUST behave consistently and sanely
 
@ircmaxell I agree
 
@bwoebi yeah, I think we should do that
 
it's not like it has to be ultrafast anyway
 
I'm going to mail internals about this
 
@ircmaxell Do!
 
10:42 PM
@ircmaxell I don't think it would be a big problem making count() use the real count
 
@NikiC wouldn't that make count() O(n)?
 
@Andrea Only if it's SYMBOLTABLE or HAS_EMPTY_IND.
 
@NikiC there's a specific flag for SYMBOLTABLE???
 
@Andrea In the type flags, yes
 
sent
 
10:48 PM
@NikiC why do we need it?
 
@Andrea I'm not quite sure if we really still need it
Z_SYMBOLTABLE_P doesn't seem to be used in any critical paths right now, so just comparing to EG(symbol_table) should be fine
 
Is this due to cache locality or something?
 
@Andrea Originally maybe. I don't quite remember in what context it was added
 
@ircmaxell someone once said "it doesn't matter how fast you can compute the wrong result, it is still wrong."
:-P
 
That's the big difference between humans and computers when doing mathematics
Computers make the same mistakes as mathematicians, but a thousand million times per second
 
10:55 PM
And then the mathematician pores over his proof for the next two hours to find the sign error
 
computers don't make mistakes (generally at least). They allow human mistakes to be made with great scale
 
Anyone else get emailed this bullshit? Namecheap sent it in their holiday email, only to twist the facts and make LetsEncrypt look like a bad thing. SSL profiteers are feeling threatened. I know for a fact NameCheap doesn't do their "validation" for basic certs as they claim, as I've used bogus info and still got issued one. Their breakdown on what LetsEncrypt offers is wrong and grossly biased as well.
 
And then he realizes that the the covariant and the contravariant field tensors are not the same
:(
Signs are the enemy
Signs and other constant factors
 
@crypticツ This bit is awesome:
> Limited flexibility – To use free SSL, you must have root access to your servers and install and run code as a super-user.
 
@crypticツ no words …
 
10:58 PM
Why on earth would I install an SSL certificate that someone else had root access to ?
 
well, installing and running code as super-user is potentially an issue there
 
@ircmaxell you don't need to?
not even with the free certs
 
> Free certificates secure single domains only. They cannot secure multiple subdomains of a domain.
O.o
 
LetsEncrypt has support or it's WIP, but they have multiple tickets open for wildcards.
 
it's WIP.
 
11:00 PM
@crypticツ what the hell this is bullshit
 
@PeeHaa so? get a separate cert per subdomain
 
There's AFAIK no current free provider exposing wildcard certs
 
they are free
 
> Though all SSL provides encryption of data as it passes between websites, free certs provide encryption only.
...
@bwoebi they don't need to, you can get a cert per domain
 
@ircmaxell Uhhhm you know you are preaching to the wrong person right?
:P
 
11:01 PM
:-P
 
Someone famous who cares about security *cough* ircmaxell *cough* should maybe write a blog post about LetsEncrypt type services? Separating fact from lies, considering the service will launch in a few weeks. Just a thought. =oP
 
@Andrea precisely.
 
automating wildcard certs would be difficult, too
 
@crypticツ that's a good idea
 
@Andrea that's the point, why it's still WIP.
 
11:02 PM
@Andrea why...?
@crypticツ also, I'm not famous
 
@ircmaxell validating that someone owns a domain and all subdomains is hard
 
@ircmaxell you have to verify that you're in control of the whole zone and not just specific domains
 
@ircmaxell you're only famous in the PHP community, to be specific
 
@Andrea if you show control over a domain, I think it's normal to assert that you can control all sub-zones
 
@Andrea Yeah but CAs only "validate" ;)
In many cases postmaster@domain.com is sufficient
 
11:03 PM
for the paid ones, yes
 
@ircmaxell yeah, it'd be a bit pointless because, if you want to listen to traffic, you'd just have to switch your DNS entry…
 
"When it comes to building trust, validation is crucial. Customers know your site is trustworthy when they see an SSL site seal indicating that, in addition to providing encryption, your business has been validated by a respected paid provider using multiple avenues of validation." They must mean their snakeoil "Trust logo" they give out with each cert. Because having a logo must mean you're secure.
 
namecheap are clearly desparate
 
@ircmaxell but the point is… DNS might point to your server, but you don't control the zone …
 
I think most of them are / should be
 
11:04 PM
@bwoebi then simply don't validate by server. Validate by dns entry.
 
Wasn't there an announcement some days ago that a number of major CAs will make DVs free?
 
@ircmaxell ooh, if you do, please post link in room and star so I can check it out. =o)
 
@ircmaxell yup, but validating DNS zones AFAIK isn't trivial?
 
:-)
@bwoebi you don't need to. Simply check for a TXT record. Like Google apps does
 
well, that requires manual action, so LetsEncrypt won't use it :)
 
11:07 PM
uhhhh
 
@Andrea it just needs one-time action, no permanent.
 
right. As long as the record exists, assume control still exists
 
@bwoebi yes, but it's not the lovely instant process that normal Let's Encrypt is :)
 
But Let's Encrypt doesn't offer wildcard certs, and the recommended 60-day renewal is a pain, even if it can be automated
 
@MarkBaker Why is it a pain?
 
11:15 PM
"Free certs have 90-day lifetimes, standard. Though future automation may eliminate the need to renew every 90 days, short lifetimes will always mean more potential points of failure." Isn't that more of a deployment issue than a free cert issue?
 
It's a pain because I can't figure a way of automating loading those renewed certs onto our AWS load balancers
That means I can automate the cert renewals, but still have to manually install them on the LBs
 
Aren't those just kinda like vpses?
Or don't you get access to those boxes?
 
Don't get direct access.... the certs are loaded through the EC2 management console
 
k
 
It's like the RDS databases, no direct access to the RDS boxes
 
11:19 PM
I'm sure it will get proper support for it though once enough people complain
 
Wildcards have been an "Issue" for the best part of a year, with no real comment back from Let's Encrypt, other than simply closing the issue last month
And that's despite the sheer number of people begging them to offer wildcards on that issue
 
@ircmaxell That's our CEO's account. What makes you think it's not? Would we share it if it isn't? That was a subsequent conversation.
 
@MarkBaker IIRC it already supports san
 
LOL. Read that convo, it is comical
@crypticツ yet short lifetimes increase security and reduce the risk of compromised certificates (of at least the impact of them)
@ircmaxell Yes, and no one typically knows the CEOs of "smaller" companies. @NamecheapCEO is legit. And I'll let him speak to the post.
Wow. Just wow.
 
to be fair, it compares to PHP's CEO...
WE’RE MORE OF AN MPE SHOP THAN AN MVP SHOP MINIMUM PASSABLE EFFORT WHATEVER’S THE LEAST AMOUNT WE CAN DO WITHOUT BEING OUTRIGHT SUED
 
11:24 PM
:P
 
lol
 
I almost want to link to that
 
CHECK OUT THIS FUNNY APRIL FOOL SITE IT’S LIKE A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE… BUT BACKWARDS! https://HASKELL.ORG
3
 
hehehe
 
lol
 
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