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1:00 PM
@GamesBrainiac Good for you :)
 
@ThW Yeh but when you are flicking back and forth between namespaces it gets hard to track/impractical (I have found). Hence the reason I prefer to just set the xmlns attrs on the root element and then just use createElement with the prefix in the tag name, which always produces a correct succinct result.
 
ThW
flicking back and forth?
 
@LeviMorrison I now get what you were saying about not being able to check the implicit return at the end at compile time.
it probably still makes sense to check the other cases at compile time, otherwise you'll probably get issues with generators
 
@ThW As in, when building a complex document where various namespaces are used at various levels throughout
 
HAPPY LIQUOR STORE DAY!
 
1:15 PM
\o/ @DanLugg!
 
Oh wait, it's cached. And now it's rum. I guess everyone is drinking rum then.
 
user895378
morning
 
@DanLugg 5.5.what?
 
user895378
ping @DaveRandom
 
pong
 
1:20 PM
@DaveRandom 5.5.*
 
@DanLugg Seem to be drinking a shitmix of rum, whiskey and gin then
 
@NikiC At present I'm replacing ZEND_VERIFY_RETURN_TYPE with ZEND_NOP in pass_two if the function is a generator.
How's that sound?
 
For the record, openSUSE is a shit OS
 
user895378
@DaveRandom So this bug got a new comment this morning and I've reopened it. It's really tough to test this one for reasons you've covered before. When you have a free minute could you read the new comment and look briefly at the first and second commits so I can run a fix by you?
 
@DaveRandom F5 until they all agree
 
1:25 PM
@rdlowrey kk, in an hour or so
Did you see my ping before?
 
user895378
@DaveRandom Yeah I know it's an imposition. Whenever you have time I'd be grateful.
 
user895378
@DaveRandom No?
 
moment
4 hours ago, by DaveRandom
@rdlowrey so... 5.5.17 was released with the regressive behaviour for SSL stream buffers :-/ just spoke to jpauli, he said he needs to be told explicitly about things like that (which is fair enough)
So... yeh. Shit. We broke PHP :-/
 
@LeviMorrison Not good
 
user895378
1:27 PM
@DaveRandom well, all we can do is apologize I guess. On the other hand, it was already broken and that's what we were trying to fix.
 
@LeviMorrison Shouldn't you never generate that in the first place?
 
user895378
It was just broken for one use case and now it's broken for a different use case because we fixed the original one :)
 
@NikiC I guess I'll have to modify more code than I'd like to then. Currently pass_two is in zend_opcode.c (I think) and doesn't have access to many function I'd need to implement it properly there.
 
Hello All
https://github.com/kamranahmedse/PHP-URLShortener
The repository was created a "long time ago". So there are a few things that I'd say, that they should have been done i.e.

1. Use Composer
2. Namespaces
3. Some Design pattern.

Other than that, can any one please critique what are the "bad things" about this repository?
 
@LeviMorrison I don't get what the implementational problem is
 
1:28 PM
@rdlowrey True. Unfortunately the use case we broke is probably the more common one (blocking) and... we broke Horde...
 
@NikiC I can't generate return type check opcodes until I know if the function is a generator or not.
It's much easier to always generate them and retroactively make them no-ops.
 
user895378
@DaveRandom I might just start refusing requests to fix 5.4/5.5 things for this reason.
 
@LeviMorrison hm, okay, do that for now. maybe we can early detect generators in the future - not sure if it's worthwhile
 
Right now the bigger issue for me is getting the inheritance checks to always run.
That part of our code is downright nasty.
 
user895378
Who knows what fingers are in the dam that might come out when trying to plug other holes.
 
1:31 PM
Whoever came up with early binding should be shot.
/ducks
 
@rdlowrey I would argue that before anything else gets touched in streams and/or openssl, a full test suite needs to be written
 
@NikiC Early detection of generators should be easy peasy
Assuming we use the AST for functions
 
@AndreaFaulds it's a question of performance. I.e., does it make sense to do a full AST traversation just to determine whether it's a generator (especially as it usually isn't)
 
user895378
@DaveRandom Well, streams has zero tests.
 
Instead of the bits-and-bobs we have atm
 
user895378
1:32 PM
And about 40% of the openssl test suite you and I added.
 
@NikiC Good point.
 
user895378
The people who wrote those things in the first place created a crap API and no tests.
 
@rdlowrey #php
 
user895378
Which is another reason why the whole streams API should be junked. It's terrible and doesn't have any tests.
 
Good morning
 
user895378
1:33 PM
So a complete refactor is no more likely to cause bugs than trying to "fix" the existing API.
 
We also already take a pass over all the function's opcodes for various reasons, so hooking in there to make them no-ops doesn't add extra passes or anything.
Just adds another case in the switch statement.
 
@LeviMorrison yeah, it just requires an extra instruction on every execution.
 
@DaveRandom I meant 5.5.PickOne
 
@rdlowrey In fairness, it is hard to test sanely because of the requirement for creating both endpoints. That's the reason there still aren't any tests - we can't add any
 
@NikiC can you think of any smarter way of handling OOB array key access rather than a branch before every single access?
 
1:35 PM
I can.
 
@DanLugg then you may as well have just given me the list and told me to pick one, since 5.5 provides all 3 options anyway
 
Are the arrays laid out sequentially with no missing indices?
 
@LeviMorrison yes
 
user895378
@DaveRandom Well that problem exists because all of php's tests are integration tests and not unit tests.
 
@DaveRandom 5.5.1, choose 5.5.1.
 
1:36 PM
@ircmaxell not in general. but practically you can likely determine that the variable will always be in range
 
user895378
You can't test any of PHP's component parts without using the whole system.
 
how, when we don't know the size of the array upfront?
 
@DanLugg None of the options are "beer" so I won't be choosing any of them anyway (I don't do spirits, it ends badly)
 
@DaveRandom Beer is implied; this is in addition.
 
Ah, actually my idea doesn't work.
It was to use mins/maxes to coerce out of bounds accesses to always be the same index
It would still need a branch.
 
1:38 PM
@ircmaxell I'm thinking about code like for ($i = 0, $c = count($a); $i < $c; ++$i)
 
well, that's still branching (2 in fact :-)
 
@ircmaxell mins and maxes can be implemented without branching.
 
@NikiC yeah, that's possible... Really specific, but possible...
I wonder if it's possible to generalize that
@LeviMorrison example?
 
@ircmaxell Just search integer min max without branching; I need to get ready for work.
 
Ok
 
1:43 PM
If I remember correctly compilers will often do branchless min/max for you.
 
r = y + ((x - y) & ((x - y) >> (sizeof(int) * CHAR_BIT - 1))); // min(x, y)
r = x - ((x - y) & ((x - y) >> (sizeof(int) * CHAR_BIT - 1))); // max(x, y)
or:
r = y ^ ((x ^ y) & -(x < y)); // min(x, y)
which may still branch
 
@ircmaxell arrrrrrrrgh
Also xkcd.com/541 but mostly that ^
 
user895378
@DaveRandom Actually, I think I know how to resolve that issue. Will ask for your review of changes on my php-src fork at some point.
 
@rdlowrey I've not fully understood the issue yet due to the fact that openSUSE is FUCKING STUPID AND I HATE IT ARRRRRGH
 
user895378
The issue is basically this ...
 
1:55 PM
That people should use sane operating systems? I agree
 
user895378
That too. But the other issue is ...
 
user895378
We poll for readability with a timeout on blocking sockets so that a read call can't hang indefinitely to fix a seven-year-old bug that could act as a DoS vector because the read call on an encrypted socket stream would never return.
 
user895378
But that polling operation doesn't properly check for an EOF.
 
user895378
So if the socket connection goes away stream->eof never gets set to 1.
 
user895378
So I need to set the underlying socket to non-blocking and call SSL_peek() to find out if the socket is EOF before doing the poll operation to catch that potential problem before setting the socket back to blocking mode and doing the poll.
 
2:01 PM
Good morning
huh, they made it (: They gave me visa
 
user895378
@AlmaDo nice :)
 
@rdlowrey OK I think I follow that. Although can't yopu just modify the poll to catch the eof? (or is that what you are effectively doing?)
 
So, moving next week. Finally.
 
Congrats @AlmaDo!
 
user895378
@DaveRandom that's basically what I'm doing.
 
2:03 PM
What was the salary again?
 
@webarto €54.000/year
 
user895378
The polling operation won't hang forever as it will eventually timeout, but the read operation should report EOF immediately instead of blocking for 30 or 60 or 90 seconds until the timeout expires.
 
thanks, @webarto (:
 
user895378
@DaveRandom It would be helpful if the people reporting the problems would actually test the patches once applied since these conditions are impossible to reproduce in a test.
 
user895378
 
user895378
2:05 PM
But they don't, so these things end up in a release.
 
@AlmaDo Awesome... how did you find the job?
 
@webarto just posted my profile in the web.. that's it. One agency from UK found within 3 days and offered my 3 places in Germany
 
posted on September 19, 2014 by nlecointre

/* by SlashBib */

 
2:06 PM
@AlmaDo Cool. I've never had any luck with agencies ^^
 
I passed 2 of them and just canceled 3-rd, so my choice was from 2 places
@webarto well, that guy was rrreeally helpful. He even gave me tips of how to impress my interviewer
 
@rdlowrey Testing is so passé
 
btw, he said that if I have good professionals that I know and who want to move - I can give his contacts
so, @webarto I can give his contacts to you if you wish
 
I'm flattered ^^ Assuming this is the position you've filled?
 
I didn't
 
2:10 PM
So, does PHP6 have support for IPv5?
 
@DaveRandom how NSFW?
 
they sent it to me
 
@ircmaxell Rude words in fairly big fonts. No bare flesh or anything though.
 
eih
 
user895378
@ircmaxell it only has lots of cursing in images. Not even text :) no objectionable images or anything.
 
2:11 PM
@DanLugg lol
 
> I nutted the gobshite.
^^ Lost it right about there.
That and "douchecanoe"
 
rotfl :-)
 
user895378
@DanLugg I love attaching nouns to "douche" to form a compound insult!
 
@rdlowrey "canoe" works spectacularly well.
 
user895378
douche-nozzle and douche-nugget are especially fun.
 
user895378
2:13 PM
Really highbrow convo in room 11 today. Sorry :)
 
@rdlowrey your dream... was a preminition
 
user895378
@Leigh meh, my dream was way worse than this. This issue is a PITA but not security vulnerability, at least.
 
:)
 
@AlmaDo let me clear up with the current employer and maybe we could slack together in Berlin ^^
 
hehe
 
user895378
2:16 PM
@Leigh And to be clear: PHP was already broken. These changes just pulled a finger out of one hole in the dam to plug another which sprung the leak.
 
9/12
 
I'll go there next week, so.. I doubt I'll be able to slack at least first few month
 
:foreverunderpaid:
 
user895378
There was a DoS vulnerability we were trying to fix that had been chilling out for 7 damn years.
 
@AlmaDo Have you got a place to stay sorted out?
 
2:17 PM
@webarto no, this question I'm resolving right now with my employer. They won't be able to help me directly, but they offer good accomodation program
Of course, later on, I should find my permanent location. And that should be nice place (:
 
It can be a be a PITA because renting apartment sometimes looks like getting a loan from bank. But something temporary should be easy to find.
 
@DanLugg I enjoyed "cockwomble"
 
user895378
@webarto I agree. I understand people don't want to lease their place to someone who won't pay, but the whole point of renting is that you can't or don't want to buy something.
 
user895378
When renting requirements are the same as purchasing requirements the landlords can screw off.
 
@rdlowrey + Most of them want to bind you to 3 year contract, if you have stable income, you're better of buying the property (if that's the goal)... but for me, renting = temporary (up to 1 year).
It's better to take loan and buy property than rent for 5+ years.
 
user895378
2:22 PM
@webarto agree.
 
Thanks, Sir.
 
Finally a new What If, but it's disappointingly short...
 
finally? they happen every week
 
@ircmaxell Did you ever submit one in the end?
 
yup
 
2:24 PM
@ircmaxell Yea, but he's been touring so it's been on hold
@ircmaxell Answered?
 
> What if you had a dime for every time x happened? I wonder, what are the reasonable (and unreasonable) limits on this sort of thing. What if someone had a dime for every time their heart beat? What if someone had a dime for every time one of their cells divided? What about every time there was a DNA transcription error?
 
@ircmaxell did you know you were here? youtube.com/watch?v=tqHIGFb7jnQ#t=355
 
Neat; surely that plays off the recent "All The Money" one too :-)
 
yes
 
:) ok
 
2:25 PM
I tried to forget about that tho :-)
I sent that in on May 1
 
@DaveRandom who's that? :D youtube.com/watch?v=tqHIGFb7jnQ#t=397
 
hmmm, I need to work on my Keynote
 
@Leigh lhs of preview frame conference.phpnw.org.uk/phpnw14 :-P
 
I know, that's why I was watching
 
lol
 
2:32 PM
 
@Leigh Despite how far off it might be, it might be responsible to defer certain features to a time when present-day issues won't impede or cripple them .
 
2:58 PM
I still need 3 more votes: wiki.php.net/rfc/integer_semantics#vote
Or to get someone to remove their no vote, and then there's just be 1 more vote needed
 
user895378
@AndreaFaulds Done. Meant to do it yesterday, got sidetracked.
 
@AndreaFaulds Convince salathe
 
user895378
A new major is the appropriate time for that kind of thing, IMO.
 
@rdlowrey Thank you :)
 
user895378
BC is super important, yes. But majors are when you standardize things like that and make the language more uniform.
 
3:02 PM
@salathe Would you mind retracting your integer_semantics RFC vote, maybe? I'm not saying vote for, just abstain. That makes my life easier.
@PeeHaa you just voted? :D
 
@AndreaFaulds that's not cool...
 
user895378
@salathe this is so awesome ... AND TERRIBLE!
 
I'm not going to harrass them.
 
@rdlowrey There are practically two things I want from PHP "7"
 
2/3 votes are so difficult...
 
3:05 PM
mysql_* to die, and named parameteres
 
With 50%+1, if one person is in favour, and another against, it's a draw. With 2/3, it's a fail.
 
user895378
I kind of think all RFC votes should be 2/3 and none 50% ... is that a bad idea?
 
@rdlowrey no, that's a very good idea
 
@rdlowrey I did propose that once
 
@rdlowrey Because it's not cumbersome enough to pass an RFC?
 
3:06 PM
2/3 isn't a bad system, it just causes me trouble getting this RFC passed :p
 
@rdlowrey +infinity
@AndreaFaulds then perhaps that's a sign
 
(Not out of sarcasm, I honestly don't know the process much)
 
user895378
I also think there should be a minimum number of votes. Like minimum ten people who care enough to vote or this can't go through.
 
user895378
It should be the RFC author's job to drum up interest (also a minor incentive not to try to push things through over holidays or something when people aren't around).
 
@ircmaxell Yes, it is a sign. There are a number strongly opposed and a few weakly in favour.
 
3:07 PM
@AndreaFaulds no, more a sign that either it shouldn't be done, or it needs to be re-thought...
 
*voting process needs to be rethought
 
To be honest, our voting process just now isn't really that broken
I'd say it works quite well
 
yea ok, those portugese translators and non-contributing non-updating pecl authors should be able to decide whether your idea is fit for the language
 
I'd rather too many people be able to vote than too few
 
^, I agree with @ircmaxell here.
 
3:13 PM
Is it really just me that values "quality of vote"?
 
@ircmaxell Do you want bikeshedding? Because that's how you get bikeshedding.
 
sure, more is better, but would you let random Joe off the street vote?
 
I value quality as well
but I'd much rather have lower average value than risk missing someone of value
 
@ircmaxell I don't think that's how votes work ;)
 
It'd also be unfair if only people who can write C code could vote
 
3:15 PM
If you analyse this particular RFC, many of the top contributors have voted yes, many no-names have voted no
 
Userland matters
 
@NikiC I know... But the alternative is worse
 
@ircmaxell What's the alternative?
 
@Leigh laruence is a no-name?
@Leigh salathe is a no-name?
 
I used "many" to not include everyone
 
3:16 PM
derick is a no-name?
 
I count 4 on each side that I wouldn't consider top contributors...
 
@AndreaFaulds We like to ignore derick altogether around here ;)
 
@Leigh I am allowed to vote ...
 
@NikiC limiting voting to those with commit karma, or something like that
 
3:17 PM
Hmm
 
brianlmoon (+), demon (-), jedibc (+), neeke (-), yumin1985 (-), zhangzhenyu (-)
 
You could limit this one to only Zend karma :p
8 (effective, 2/3 majority values No votes 2x Yes votes) No votes from non-namers, 2 Yes votes
 
I actually did search the lists to find out who these people were
docs, and internals
 
@AndreaFaulds why? it affects the language, and the specification... So thats completely not fair. HHVM people should have the ability to vote as well. As should I, since I maintain an alternative implementation.
 
3:20 PM
So, I should mail the list and ask for karma, because I need to vote?
 
@ircmaxell Oh sure, I wasn't saying it was a good idea to do that
 
I was waiting until I felt like I deserve to vote (which is why I have a problem with these other guys)
 
At least two of these people have no karma at all...
How the hell do you get a karma-less php.net account?!
 
then ask that on list
and it's easy to get a karma-less php.net account
 
3:22 PM
Actually, I have an RFC that will need voting in a week, so I guess I should be allowed to vote on my own RFC
 
Oh yeah, you can't without karma...
er
without a php.net acc I mean... I think?
Can normal wiki users vote? I forgot.
 
nope
I am a normal wiki user
 
Apply for an account then, I'm sure you shall succeed
Oh man
the ?? RFC will be eligible to be put to vote tomorrow
However I'd like to add ??= first if I can.
 
@AndreaFaulds I was wondering about that ... C# doesn't seem to have that and we don't have ?:= either
 
??= and ?:= look ridiculous
 
3:30 PM
Good point. It may be tricky to implement.
I keep wishing/imagining JS had/has a ||= operator though
 
perl has //= though
 
@NikiC Whether it's a good idea or not, how would you implement it and avoid double-evaluation? Can that BP_VAR_IS trick work for writes too?
 
nop
 
Figured as much.
So: 1) ??= looks silly, 2) We don't have ?:= nor does C# have ??=, 3) Not sure how to implement it =====> Let's not do it?
 
grunting from within vs, \o/
 
3:33 PM
@Leigh ??= doesn't. $a = $a ?? $b ~> $a ??= $b is a perfectly sensible course of reason (IMO)
 
I mean you can always do $foobar = $foobar ?? $blah;
 
@DanLugg I hope if $a exists it doesn't actually follow through with the assignment
 
@Leigh "$a = isset($a) ? $a : $b" --> "$a = $a ?? $b" --> "$a ??= $b"
 
@Leigh Oh shit, yeah. We'd have to assign conditionally
I am not implementing this
 
I'm going back to C#.
 
3:36 PM
@AndreaFaulds I just meant that it would be a pointless assignment to make $a = $a if $a didn't exist ...
 
user895378
Hmm ... is the internals list lagging? Sent a mail a few minutes ago that doesn't seem to be showing up. Anybody see a message from me yet?
 
or maybe Dan confused me..
 
@Leigh It's not pointless, it's problematic
 
@Leigh $a = $a should nop anyway, really it's just if !isset($a) then assign $b to $a.
 
Say I do $a = []; $a[0] ??= 3; - if $a[0] didn't exist, the array is now [NULL]
@DanLugg It shouldn't and won't nop because default values
$a[0] = $a[0]; adds a NULL first element if none exists and raises an E_NOTICE
 
3:38 PM
aaand back to where I say thats kind of ridiculous looking, would much rather have that behaviour written expressively
 
@AndreaFaulds $a[0] = isset($a[0]) ? $a[0] : 3
 
@DanLugg ...
headdesk
 
thats, insane
 
lol
 
3:39 PM
Seriously?
 
` $a[0] = isset($a[0]) ? $a[0]` this part is insane, why would you ever want this
unless you're doing something ridiculous with an object implementing array access
 
@rdlowrey I got it
 
@Leigh filling in default values in incoming user data (for example)
 
@Leigh It's not insane, it's the expanded form.
 
user895378
@NikiC yeah, just showed up for me too. Thanks.
 
3:41 PM
@AndreaFaulds no, it's saying, if I am set, then set me to myself
 
@Leigh Which is why I thought nop, but meh.
Er go; if I am set, do nothing.
 
user895378
Just wanted to make sure it sent :)
 
@Leigh which isn't a problem
 
which is a stupid thing to do :)
 
in fact
this is what compilers optimise conditional assignments to, to avoid branching
Except on the Mill because it has Nones and is awesome and has zero-cycle ternary operator :D
 
3:42 PM
zee goggles. anywho, later.
 
@AndreaFaulds However a write fetch also doesn't throw notices, so it might be made to work. but probably somewhat more complicated if you really want to avoid double eval
 
the best bit about the Mill is the guy who looks like a wizard
 
@NikiC Can a write fetch be read?
@Leigh He is a wizard.
:18987622 Is this why & doesn't cause an E_NOTICE?
 
@AndreaFaulds yes
 
@Leigh Watch ALL THE TALKS!!
 
Functional programming suffers from the owl problem: Step 1. map a function over a list Step 2. build the rest of your fucking app
 
@Danack I usually use step 1 as part of step 2. Functional programming constructs are insanely useful.
 
@AndreaFaulds I have watched most of them
 
user895378
3:46 PM
@Danack this is amazing :)
 
Thanks
 
Java Forever And Ever Movie (JAVA vs Windows .Net), this movie is real?:)
Trailer look good.
 
@philip_roberts @borkdude did you know this is one of Twilio's nine values? https://www.twilio.com/company/nine-values
Oddly the "owl rule" is #8, but read the tele-text on #1
 
a dash of FP is good. going whole-hog with it? not so much.
 

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