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3:00 PM
zend_int64_t_only_on_64_bit_platforms_otherwise_32_bit_t
 
Perfect; ship it.
 
@ircmaxell that sounds acceptable
 
zend_i64too64bpo32b_t
 
@ircmaxell zend_int_sometimes64_t
zend_leaky_abstraction_t
 
zend_this_is_why_we_cant_have_nice_things_since_we_cant_have_architecture_indepe‌​ndent_abstractions_t
 
3:02 PM
zend_maybe_int64_t
 
> C
 
eh
 
:-P
 
Real question: is there a way to download a pull request from github as a patch?
 
We should just call it type. Nice and neutral.
 
3:04 PM
@NikiC zend_natural_number_t
 
@ircmaxell natural numbers are non-negative
 
@LeviMorrison you can merge
@NikiC eih, what's another inconcistency in PHP :-P
 
@NikiC In hindsight I was wrong on a detail or two. Sorry for the noise. I still think the quoted statement should at least be reworded to include something like sizeof(int) <= sizeof(long)
 
haha ... the last 10 minutes would be funny ... if it weren't actually happening ...
 
(ILP64 systems are common in HPC but there are still a fair number of LP64 systems too)
 
3:06 PM
zend_integer_t
 
zend_int_fast32_t
 
zint_t because looks cool
2
 
zend_sometimes_maybe_ehh_not_sure_probably_but_not_always_quite_64_t
@DaveRandom best I've seen :P
 
something_t
 
not descriptive enough ...
 
3:09 PM
in seriousness though, zend_integer would seem most appropriate, since long is not descriptive (really). And change zend_int to zend_int32...
 
Though, wait, what's the point of int64 anyway?
Microsoft Azure?
 
@JoeWatkins sorry, zend_something_t
 
@NikiC So to clarify: zend_int is always 32 bit, and zend_long is architecture defined (but not OS defined)?
 
better
 
@AndreaFaulds M$ in general I think
even 64-bit builds on Win have 32 bit ints
 
3:11 PM
I think 64bit string length this is all about, right ?
it started out as 64bit all the things iirc ...
 
64-bit will be a pain for me when implementing bigints, gmp doesn't support long long
 
Not sure 64 bit string length has much practical usefulness, wasn't that more about consistency/correctness?
No-one loads >2GB data into memory as a single string
 
@DaveRandom size_t is the correct C type for string lengths, yes
 
I don't know tbh ...
 
@DaveRandom well, and you could have (and do) situations where a string crosses the 2gb threshold, and becomes unaddressable (the size overflows)
 
3:14 PM
btw, I wonder if we really need zend_size_t. Any reason to not just use size_t instead?
 
@NikiC That I know of, no.
Err, I do not see any value of zend_size_t
Or zend_int as things currently stand. If it's guaranteed to be 32 bits then use int32_t.
 
@NikiC no
 
@LeviMorrison I think zend_int could also be 64bit if you run php on an ilp64 system
 
@LeviMorrison IIRC, int32_t isn't provided by every compiler php supports...
 
@ircmaxell Like MSVC... :<
 
3:16 PM
@ircmaxell Respectfully, I don't think we should care about those compilers.
 
isn't uint32_t supported by MSVC?
 
@AndreaFaulds They have it now (I think; checking now).
 
@LeviMorrison Since how long? Which version?
 
probably 14
 
They didn't as recently as 2010.
 
3:17 PM
msvc stopped being dicks only very, very recently
maybe in ten years php can start using c99, who knows?
 
@LeviMorrison for a large project, unfortunately, that's not really in the question
@NikiC I watched a presentation recently about completing adoption of C++14... which isn't even ratified...
and not from microsoft
 
@ircmaxell C++14 is ratified
 
@ircmaxell Any vendor who can't update their compiler to a popular standard that is 15 years old can probably be ignored fairly soon.
 
@NikiC it wasn't ratified at the time that the presentation was made
 
And the newest msvc build support one or two features for c++14. but they still don't have complete c++11 support and obviously nowhere near complete c99 / c11 support
 
3:18 PM
@LeviMorrison Oh god I wish ;_;
 
@LeviMorrison easier said then done, especially when you have embedded platforms
 
@NikiC I believe they have better support in their CTP releases (I think that's what they are called).
 
@LeviMorrison that's what I'm referring to
 
(I've had a hard time with spelling and grammar today >.<)
As a follow up, I believe an update to MSVC 2010 has stdint.h
Can't seem to find an official statement, just boatloads of people saying an update to MSVC 2010 has it.
 
zend_this_is_why_we_cant_have_nice_things_since_we_cant_have_architecture_inde‌​pe‌​ndent_abstractions_t looks acceptable … no, really. I think zend_(u)long is perfectly fine now
 
3:25 PM
:-)
 
So zend_int is equivalent to sizeof(int) and on 64 bit machines a zend_long is 64 bits and on a 32 bit machine it is 32 bits, regardless of OS? /cc @NikiC
 
And why do we always use the _t suffix? … Finally, it's not int_t, long_t in the standard………
 
@LeviMorrison I think the first 32 is wrong
@LeviMorrison that looks right
 
(was just a typo)
So what's the motivation for guaranteeing 64 long on 64 bit platform?
 
though if zend_int is already 64bit (which it presumably can be on ILP64), then of course zend_long would be 64bit as well
@LeviMorrison so that the poor windows users don't get 32bit numbers?
 
3:29 PM
I guess I'm just confused as to why we are doing this instead of using 32 bit everywhere or 64 bit everywhere.
Or just simply sticking to OS provided stuff.
 
@bwoebi it is for fixed size types: int32_t, int64_t, size_t, etc...
only the core int, long, double types don't have _t suffix
 
@ircmaxell size_t isn't fixed?
 
Anyone know of a tl;dr on the Flash Shockwave Player license? Use case: embedding it via COM in an intranet desktop application for use as a GUI.
 
@LeviMorrison I would prefer zend_int to be int32_t, to always be 32 bit...
@bwoebi that should have said "for built in types added within the past 20 years"
 
I've got this: adobe.com/products/players/… but not sure if exactly what I'm after.
 
3:31 PM
Btw @NikiC, 100% on your sane names for int64 RFC
 
@AndreaFaulds write it to the list ;)
 
and then duck, because pierre will be firing unrelated nonsense at you ...
 
@AndreaFaulds if you missed it, we're setting up a constructive channel on Freenode, #phpinternals
 
@ircmaxell Ooh, neat. Will join...
@ircmaxell However, 'constructive internals channel' is an oxymoron
 
@AndreaFaulds I have op power and will use it as needed
 
3:33 PM
the police just rang ... they were waiting for me to get better ... so they could fucking charge me with poxy crap like not having a stupid learner plate on the bike ...
 
@ircmaxell Still, what's the point of marking these explicitly with _t suffix? I never missed that suffix where it wasn't present…
 
@JoeWatkins I know I really shouldn't laugh, but.... :)
 
@bwoebi Sometimes _t is useful, e.g. GMP's mpz_t but I'd agree it's rarely useful.
 
@ircmaxell No wonder it is so quiet, since it is constructive :D
 
@AndreaFaulds why even there?
@ircmaxell is room 11 not good enough?
 
3:35 PM
@bwoebi Fits a pattern. mpz_ is the prefix for the type and the function set, I like that.
 
@bwoebi distinguish types from variables...?
@LeviMorrison :-P
 
@ircmaxell That too.
 
@JoeWatkins :-(
 
@ircmaxell You see what it is, type or variable, already before you even look at the suffixes…
 
@rdlowrey it is, predictably, not as simple as one would like it to be. You can't just change the readpos/writepos because other routines then think there is data there when there isn't and you get either garbage or segfault
It's also non-trivial to just hydrate the buffer because the abstraction just doesn't account for this possibility
 
3:38 PM
@AndreaFaulds :-P
 
Question! Who "peer reviews" the edit we make to questions?
 
@MoshMage Other StackOverflow users.
 
@MoshMage Whoever is going through the review queues
 
Oh god. Click onto a page, see LANGUAGE="VBSCRIPT" CODEPAGE="1252"%> in top left...
 
@bwoebi sometimes...
 
3:41 PM
And where are the review queues? (just so I can join in on the fun :x)
 
@AndreaFaulds just AWESOME!!!! \o/
 
@ircmaxell more like in 99% of cases. And if the identifier is chosen wisely, you can infer if it should be a variable or a type name…
 
@bwoebi sure, but there's no harm in being explicit... I'm nto saying we need to, just that there is some reason to... it's not completely useless
 
@bwoebi @ircmaxell aren't thing_t types supposed to be reserved by the specs anyway? Sure I read that somewhere
 
well in that case...
 
3:45 PM
nah, don't think so ...
 
@ircmaxell _t is very close to going hungarian tho
CFoo, IBar, TBaz in PHP ^^
 
@NikiC Valóban, ez elég nyugtalanító. El kell kerülni minden áron.
 
@NikiC well, not really, because it's a separate table (where as hungarian distinguishes within the same lookup table)
 
oh it apparently is ... but we can safely ignore it ... I always have/will ...
 
it would be closer to prefixing all functions with "f", classes with "c" and constants with something else
 
3:47 PM
I think it's conceptually very similar, or at least similarly useless ^^
 
@ircmaxell not in sizeof()?
 
@JoeWatkins what is?
 
@ircmaxell Let's follow the PHP convention and prefix our variables with $!
However, we don't have $ in C...
 
yay!
 
24
Q: If I do a `typedef` in C or C++, when should I add `_t` at the end of typedef'ed type?

bodacydoI am confused when should I add the trailing _t to typedef'ed types? For example, should I do this: typedef struct image image_t; or this: typedef struct image image; What are the general rules? Another example, should I do this: typdef enum { ARRAY_CLOSED, ARRAY_OPEN, ARRAY_HALFOPEN } a...

 
3:47 PM
So we'll use USD_
 
top answer says reserved for posix ...
 
Indeed it does. No more _t, then :)
 
Identifiers that end in _t are reserved in POSIX: opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/V2_chap02.html. Not that I pay much attention to that (I typedef to names ending in _t pretty often). — Michael Burr Jul 12 '10 at 1:50
 
@JoeWatkins wow, never know that
 
3:49 PM
Quick! Inform krakjoe_t!
 
@LeviMorrison hahahaha
 
@PeeHaa I feel like answering "We could, but we wont" but that'd be so bitchy xD
 
didn't know it either ... I'm a rebel ... I like it ... and so will keep doing it ... and think we should too ...
 
:-)
 
HMM GUYS
I THINK _T ISN'T OBVIOUS ENOUGH
ZEND_TYPE_TYPEDEF_STRUCT_ZEND_STRING_TYPE_T
 
3:50 PM
@AndreaFaulds yeah, we need _TYPE, in Caps. ^ see above
 
49 mins ago, by ircmaxell
zend_this_is_why_we_cant_have_nice_things_since_we_cant_have_architecture_indepe‌​ndent_abstractions_t
^^ simple enough
 
wasn't the use of long architecture independent ?
 
@JoeWatkins Yes but not independent enough for our liking. All abstractions are architecture-independent, but some are more architecture-independent than others.
 
in that we have used it forever and it causes no problems ... I like simple, I like _t too, but I don't really see why we're not using the proper names for stuff, if the thing we want to use is size_t, why on earth not just use size_t, if we want a ulong why not use ulong ?
 
3:53 PM
@JoeWatkins Because Microsoft did The Right Thing™ but sadly most other platforms did The Wrong Thing™
 
@JoeWatkins because the spec is garbage around those core types...
 
@AndreaFaulds you mean that the other way around?
 
@NikiC Not at all. I think the MS approach is correct, long should be 32-bit IMO.
 
what ?
no, it shouldn't ...
 
IMO, types should be their minimums: char should always be 8-bit, short should always be 16-bit, long should always be 32-bit and long long should always be 64-bit.
 
3:55 PM
you are being crazy ...
 
@AndreaFaulds no, it shouldn't
 
@AndreaFaulds I hate long long
 
@DaveRandom Ditto, I'd prefer huge or something
 
fuck, I ended the previous sentence with a semicolon
 
I do like being able to write private long long parts; though
 
3:56 PM
are you doing that intentionally ?
 
@AndreaFaulds disagree, those should be architecture dependent (so long should always be the word size for integer operations on the platform), and if you want fixed sizes, use int64_t
 
@ircmaxell Wouldn't word make more sense for that, though?
 
I have an observation ... it doesn't really make 64bit patch any less of a headache if we do this, whatever the name it still seems pointless to me ...
 
@DaveRandom That.
You know, the other approach to 64-bit is just forget it and use bigints ;)
 
@JoeWatkins what I find insane is that we still have platforms that use 32 bit integers... in 2014...
 
3:58 PM
> My job prospects require MVC (varying from Lavarel, Symfony, Zend, etc...), so I'm wanting to stick with MVC, plus its easier for me to work with than try and figure out how to separate the logic otherwise. reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/2e8oy3/…
 
@ircmaxell Shouldn't we be onto 128-bit by now? It's been 2 decades since the Nintendo 64!
 
.. I won't even try
 
Naming is hard.
4
 
this isn't a problem in my world ... I don't remember how windows works ... and am glad about it ...
 
The 70s were 8-bit, 80s were 16-bit, the 90s were 32-bit, the 2000s were 64-bit, the 2010s are still 64-bit...
 
4:00 PM
@AndreaFaulds we have that, SIMD... It turns out that we don't usually need primitives larger than 64 bit today, but we can operate on larger data sets at once...
 
@AndreaFaulds we already have the xmm registers, they just need to get more efficient.
 
SIMD is pretty old tho right ?
 
@ircmaxell Surely we just need 32-bit with SIMD then?
@JoeWatkins As old as time itself. Maybe.
 
as old as the 70's at least ...
 
@JoeWatkins yeah, but it's still quite efficient to parallelize operations
 
4:01 PM
I love the Mill's design, I want them to hurry up with it...
Having SIMD and SISD be the same instruction is awesome
 
hell, that's basically how GPUs work, they are HUGE SIMD processors... with up to 7k threads of data... per instruction
 
very clever stuff yeah ... I played with it a while ... I only learned about it a while ago to be honest ... I just remember reading it was older than the hills and wondering why I was only just reading about it that day ...
Single instruction, multiple data (SIMD), is a class of parallel computers in Flynn's taxonomy. It describes computers with multiple processing elements that perform the same operation on multiple data points simultaneously. Thus, such machines exploit data level parallelism, but not concurrency: there are simultaneous (parallel) computations, but only a single process (instruction) at a given moment. SIMD is particularly applicable to common tasks like adjusting the contrast in a digital image or adjusting the volume of digital audio. Most modern CPU designs include SIMD instructions in order...
I done it for the second time, sometime in 2014 when someone told me about it in this room ...
 
I need to start my newest project... a new language atop the Zend Engine. Not actually PHP-related.
 
you can't polish a turd ...
 
@AndreaFaulds why? I have certain doubts that the ZE is a good basis for a language...
 
4:05 PM
if you're going to write a new language, write a new language :D
 
if you're going to write a new language, target llvm...
speaking of which, @JoeWatkins :-P
 
@NikiC Because I'm only familiar with Zend and I need to port an existing project to something.
 
posted on August 22, 2014 by kbironneau

/* by Vooodoo */

 
Morning.
 
@ircmaxell yeah, llvm is on me list ... it's mucho more complex than libjit ... but I read more backends were possible in your dox, so I'll obviously be doing that at some point ...
 
4:07 PM
@JoeWatkins :-D
@AndreaFaulds if the only tool you know is a hammer...
 
@ircmaxell I could write my own interpreter, the thing is I don't have the time. Also, PHP isn't the worst fit for this language...
 
fair enough :-D
 
I'd wager if you have time to reuse zend, to pick it apart from php and actually make it useful, and work around the last 20 years of "decisions", then you have time to write an interpreter ...
 
hell, write it in PHP, and use @JoeWatkins's JitFU as the backend
 
I wouldn't need to pick Zend apart from PHP. The less I do, the better, actually (extension compatibility)
 
4:11 PM
can you C++ ?
 
@JoeWatkins D
 
@AndreaFaulds does it have similar behavioral semantics?
 
@DaveRandom 1 internet point for you, sir ...
 
If you don't want PHP's array semantics I recommend that you don't use Zend Engine.
 
@ircmaxell Depends...
 
4:12 PM
I may go troll the lounge with that in a bit
 
I think about a new language all the time ... or I was, about a year ago ... I think the thing making me think about it was solved ... by something I can't talk about ...
 
@JoeWatkins It's @ircmaxell's secret project isn't it?
 
I know nothing ..
 
:-)
 
I forget every detail, but if you're looking to play around with a new language ... github.com/clever-lang/clever this is written by felipe ... he's very quiet ... he's also extremely smart guy, he doesn't need to talk ... I worked on it a while ... worth a poke around maybe @AndreaFaulds
if you're seeking to make zend faster, we got that ... or maybe we haven't ... who knows ...
 
4:16 PM
I'm seeking to port an existing, dead language to Zend to try and keep a project alive :P
Well not dead
More abandoned by its creators
 
@JoeWatkins website's domain expired
@AndreaFaulds which dead language is that, if you can share?
 
yeah which ?
@ircmaxell you're not missing much, unfinished documentation and what not ...
 
GameMaker: Studio (originally named Animo and later Game Maker) is a proprietary game creation system created by Mark Overmars in the Delphi programming language. GameMaker accommodates the creation of cross-platform video games using drag and drop or a scripting language known as Game Maker Language, which can be used to develop more advanced games that could not be created just by using the drag and drop features. GameMaker was designed to allow novice computer programmers to be able to make computer games without much programming knowledge by use of these actions. == Development histor...
 
@AndreaFaulds have you considered PHP?
 
@tereško Trying to port the project to a new language is a dead end
 
4:17 PM
@JoeWatkins much?
 
hi all
 
okay anything ... you're not missing anything ...
 
@AndreaFaulds it looks to be already llvm based...?
@JoeWatkins the only docs I see are "getting involved"
 
@ircmaxell Not GameMaker Studio's GML, but GM 8. Now, yes, strictly speaking, the language is not dead, as Studio exists. However: 1) Studio removed all the dynamic features of the language (no compatibility), 2) Breaks binary strings and strings in general horribly, 3) Commercial product
 
a quick question, what is wrong in this query?
select name,type, count(name) AS name_count, sum(count(name)) AS type_sum from my_table group by name;
 
4:19 PM
Is it just me or does anyone else hate when people put the opening and closing curly braces below the statement?
 
So much so that we gave up porting to the new version of Game Maker
 
@AndreaFaulds ah, fair enough
 
@MoshMage just you
 
It seriously makes me twitch; Why spend a whole line for just one char? :x
 
I don't see any commits since last November either ... I wonder why ... it was a cool project, I wrote a few modules for it ... C++, AST based compiler, nice standard library, it was shaping up real tidy but I ran outa time and stopped watching closely ...
 
4:21 PM
@MoshMage what does annoy me is when people do not stick to one style
 
@tereško oh, yes. that's actually worse x)
 
@MoshMage I hate it.
 
@MoshMage You mean K&R Style? I don't like it at all, I'm a 1TBS man all the way.
If I see K&R-style braces in code that I have to work on for more than just a spot fix, I'll change the braces.
 
I <3 K&R
 
Buuuh. Looks broken to me.
 
4:23 PM
1TBS is the only syntax that's actually provable why it's better (logically that is)
 
K&R puts while and if curlies at the end of the line. That's good. I don't mind the newline for functions as much.
 
That Wiki page does a bad job, what's the difference between 1TBS and K&R?
 
Yeah, I think I picked the wrong one.
K&R is like 1TBS but for a few exceptions
 
No brace omission at all? Myself, I never omit braces.
 
4:25 PM
if (true)
{ // this right here is an abomination

}
 
an entire chapter on indentation and brace placemnet ^^ boom
 
yeah, the K&R Style. and loling and "one true brace style" xD
but I agree with @AndreaFaulds - there's not much difference;

I'm referring to (this)[http://pastebin.com/9seh2bQY]

*hate that reddit and SO has dif markup*
 
dat markup.
 
aaaaahhhscrewit
 
4:27 PM
@AndreaFaulds I have been fighting this lately at work
 
I hate PSR-2
It MIXES STYLES
class
{
    function
    {
        conditional () {
            // PSR-4 sucks
        }
    }
}
 
I use PSR4 for my Composer libs, but I have a composer lib which lets me do highly customizable and case-insensitive autoloads
 
You're talking about putting any brace on a line by itself, ever, for any reaseon, and yeah... it is a crime against codemanity.
4
 
@AndreaFaulds you are referring to PSR1/2
 
@Chris yes.
 
4:28 PM
@AndreaFaulds that's K&R
 
@AndreaFaulds I actually like that
sorry
 
dude ...
 
@DaveRandom It has a certain logic to it, I'm not sure I completely hate it
 
Bro....
 
Zend (PHP?) use the same style internally, I think...
 
4:29 PM
hahaha ... style ...
 
We do have a fairly consistent internal coding style
From what I've seen, anyway
 
consistent = everyone does as it pleases him/her? XD
 
Braces on newlines tax my gig hardcore.
 
it's so unimportant, I hadn't noticed ... but yeah /Zend at least seems to stick to that ...
 
@Chris far out, you be trippin
 
4:32 PM
"Better" type names. We're all having a good laugh here at #hhvm. http://wiki.php.net/rfc/better_type_names_for_int64 http://t.co/DwROLd9S9i
 
/Zend is full of lies ...
here's one I just found ...
that happens nowhere
 
Z_STRLEN is changed to Z_STRSIZE <- lol;
 
@MoshMage should be Z_STRSIZE_T_NOT
 
"string size" is usually 1em
 
4:35 PM
@tereško Depends...
 
@tereško unless you add support for large strings, then it's 1.6 em... Or tiny ones at 0.2em...
 
=)
.. I should actually used the "Strings come in various sizes: S, M, L, XL, XXL and MURICAN"
4
 
:-)
 
I hope that doesn't happen ...
 
@JoeWatkins I like Pierre's bluntness
"no"
 
4:40 PM
he pisses me off ...
good dev, works real hard and that ... but pisses me off ...
 
@JoeWatkins eih, it's not a bad thing...
 
he keeps tagging me in nonsense on twitter ... it's very hard to keep cool ...
 
@ircmaxell Well 64-bit ones can reach sizes of 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF em
 
:-)
@JoeWatkins it's easy, just add him to your block list
 
However PHP can only address 0x7FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
 
4:44 PM
that seems disrespectful, and I don't want to be that ...
 
@JoeWatkins it's not disrespectful, it's healthy
what's worse? blocking someone? Or constantly being frustrated and getting driven crazy?
 
I can see that ... but then can't he continue to tag me in nonsense on twitter and I won't even be aware of it ??
@PierreJoye I don't need convincing of that !!!
 
I talked with Elizabeth about that earlier
 
I spent about an hour in private messages in irc the other day, trying to convince him that bundling ustring into intl for use in intl, might be a mistake, it would be better imo to introduce an api ... and then he says I need convincing of the thing I spent ages trying to convince him of ...
 
10:23 <auroraeosrose> ah, joe still working on the ustring/intl one?  he needs to ignore loud pierre on that
10:23 — auroraeosrose grumbles
 
4:49 PM
I know this is true, but he talks at me, tweets patches for the things I'm working on, questions what I'm doing ... he just rubs me up the wrong way, I don't know why ...
 
@JoeWatkins Dude: Chillax and flip him off, do the thing and then politely tell him "see? This way is way better: have a look at it" ;x
 
@JoeWatkins don't get bogged down by that though
 
It's what I did last time "that situation" happened to me and it worked great
 
09:38 <@ircmaxell> my point was, an RFC should concisely represent what's proposed. RFCs with conflicting options (not just timing, but changing concepts) are confusing and are not effective
09:39 <@Pierre> effectiveness. not sure if i should laugh or cry when I read this word in the context of team work in php....
09:39 <@Pierre> ircmaxell, forgot what you left? or move out, or whatever you use to define your move :)
09:39 <@Pierre> *why
09:40 <@ircmaxell> It was because of things like what you are doing... So no, I didn't forget
 
hi everyone i am very new to stack overflow
 
4:52 PM
I will just crack on ... the folder isn't important, if it ends up in intl then whatever, what was important is that other extensions not being able to use it doesn't make sense, it's not dependent on intl, at all and he kept talking about code duplication and sharing (there is none) ... intl could be improved if it existed, but if it exists with an exported api then so can everything else ...
so he's difficult with everyone then ...
@MoshMage I already done it ... github.com/krakjoe/ustring/blob/master/api.h
 
That's the spirit! :) now just shove it on his face (LOL, don't. xD)
 
@JoeWatkins pop into #phpinternals on freenode at some point to discuss it :-D
 
Well, fellas, I'm off. Have a nice weekend and all
 
lata @MoshMage
@ircmaxell I totally arrived ...
> This is not the mailing list, we don't argue over stuff here.
 
:-)
 

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