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9:00 PM
@SunilK purple
 
@tereško What purple?
 
user895378
@bwoebi I said that when I was 18 years old too. Now I'm 31 and I just want to get a project to the point where I can make lots of money from it :)
 
user895378
Computers aren't the thing. They're the thing that gets you to the thing.
 
I consider the phpdbg_watch + phpdbg_btree the most complicate thing I've ever done.
 
@SunilK the correct answer is : purple
 
9:01 PM
@SunilK what L n T or Cognizant?
 
^ see, webarto also agrees
 
Which is a better company?
for a fresher
 
@webfarto knows where it's at.
 
Fresher? Definitely lnt: lnt.com
 
are you sure tht you got the right chat room ?
 
9:02 PM
So fresh.
 
@rdlowrey So, how do you plan to make lots of money with Aerys?
 
Zend is really trying to get their hands back deeply into PHP core. If they do any attempts to do so we really, really need to oppose.
Notably with PHPNG.
 
@Chris it's no exaggeration to say that 80% of the internet, the vast majority of the PHP code that exists, does as a matter of fact demand that we retain some level of compatibility with the past ..
 
@rdlowrey's plan last I knew was 'build cool shit, and hopefully it pays off'.
 
user895378
^ That
 
9:02 PM
It is not good for PHP to have Zend (the company) so integrated with PHP.
 
First thing to do… Remove the copyright © Zend in the source files...
 
user895378
At this point I just want to finish it so that I can do the next thing. And right now PHP's limitations make that impossible in userland. So I'm having to move to C where the things I need can actually be accomplished.
 
@JoeWatkins Or they are stuck in a dead-end branch and the burden of progress shifts to them. I refer you to Microsoft and Windows XP. It was a big deal to move, and people are still trying to figure out how to deal with it. But the point is, it is their problem, not Microsoft's.
 
user895378
@Chris Yeah but you're fooling yourself if you don't think lots of businesses will now migrate from XP to something like RHEL in large part to avoid the problem of being "abandoned."
 
MS evaluated the cost/benefit, and decided that it was more valuable to just move on. The people will catch up, or they can keep using XP if they really need to.
 
9:04 PM
@JoeWatkins thing is: most of the sites with unmaintained or outdated code have not been updated the server software since PHP 5.1
 
^ this
 
user895378
At the very least the XP situation will cause a lot of people who never would've considered other options to see what else is out there besides M$.
 
At some point, you're extending more work to keep old code working than the original developers do!
 
and we really shouldn't care about them.
 
if microsoft write a new operating system, and nobody cares (note,happens all the time), then nothing really bad happens, if we put time and effort into the production of a new version and nobody uses it, you have demoralized the thing pushing it forward at all ... not same ...
 
user895378
9:05 PM
Yeah, the programmers who worked on the failed MS operating system got paid.
 
user895378
PHP runs on volunteer contributions.
 
user895378
If tons of volunteer work hours go up in smoke there are a lot of people who lose out.
 
Had to speak to a printer tech guy on the phone today at work while he remote controlled one of our Macs. It painfully evident he wasn't familiar with OSX heh. I empathised. So we switched him on to Windows. Unfortunately for him he was also unfamiliar with windows 8 and ended up back on OSX heh.
 
Do you really think, if you said: Hey world! We've eliminated a bunch of crap from PHP that we only had in there so a handful of shitty sites that can't be asked to update from PHP 3.0 will still work. PHP is now a better language, and you can shove all that phpsucks.net stuff where the sun doesn't shine -- if you said that, and had a product to back it up, that the whole internet would stop using PHP in a fit of slighted feelings?
 
user895378
9:07 PM
Was it me? I'm totally useless on Mac and Win8 :)
 
@LeviMorrison classic fail if array has no elements
 
@ircmaxell No. 8 still standing huh? :)
 
@rdlowrey lol no. I am the same. Which is why I felt so bad for him. :P
 
yup
 
@AlmaDo Pretty sure it still runs, actually.
I'll double check.
Ah, nope, it's a syntax error.
 
user895378
9:08 PM
@Chris I think you're severely underestimate the percentage of PHP users who don't give a crap about language quality and believe WordPress is the pinnacle of software achievement. That's PHP's largest user base; not serious programmers who want an elegant language.
 
Good riddance?
 
user895378
Not if PHP is to remain relevant.
 
@ircmaxell though i rmb you left a different hint here than the one currently under the Hint.
 
@AlmaDo Made a note in the body of the answer.
 
@Chris you just said yourself people are still debating if they should upgrade from 5.1
 
user895378
9:09 PM
Sadly, BC is PHP's single most important feature IMO. Does that suck for people who want the best language possible? Kind of.
 
@rdlowrey they do run the latest PHP. They do not run even any PHP version from past 5 years
 
@rdlowrey We could end up like Python 3 ;-)
 
user895378
@tereško Eventually their VPS service will force an upgrade. That's when it happens.
 
@Jack or Perl 6.
 
Although Perl 6 is not officially released.
 
9:11 PM
@JoeWatkins My boss won't go from 5.4 to 5.6, even though there is no risk. I get it. But what if he had to go? Would we drop PHP? Absolutely not. We have so much invested, both in software assets and staff training/experience. We're committed, I think most other places are too. If they aren't, they're holding everyone else back. Why pander to them?
 
there is considerable risk, that's beta software
 
user895378
Too large a BC shift has a non-zero probability of killing the language. Is it likely? Probably not, but it is possible.
 
NB: I am playing devil's advocate to a degree. I know the culture/conclusions of PHP at the moment is to favor absolute BC
 
user895378
Yeah, under no circumstance should 5.6 be in a serious mission critical environment at this time.
 
@Chris We are updating to 5.5 this friday, because everyone was shocked to discover that Facebook SDK now requires at least 5.4+
 
9:12 PM
Hence the beta label ;-)
 
@tereško Good for them.
 
user895378
Anything less than 5.4 is irresponsible as far as I'm concerned ...
 
I'd like to know what really accounts for the vast majority of users, is it shared hosting/managed hosting, or dev studios, or sersious managed hosting or what ... I suspect though, that it's shared hosting or setups like it ...
 
The thing about BC is if you stop the trend and break, you aren't leaving people with nothing. They still have the version that they are running, which works. They aren't left out to dry completely.
 
user895378
No, but now everyone developing software in the ecosystem has to support two major paradigms.
 
user895378
9:14 PM
You're totally dumping on your developers at that point.
 
So - they started voting on the 64 bit branch, but it still include all those renamed of macros, zpp etc
 
I think you'd see something a lot like the Microsoft XP situation. People would grumble, and update to 7 or 8 and move on with life.
 
@Chris we break very little, still adoption rates are slow, I don't think we can afford therefore to break more than a little ...
 
So many people have complained about that, and they still don't change it, dammit
 
did you complain again @NikiC ?
 
user895378
9:15 PM
@Chris I think you're underestimating the cost of BC breaks in large scale operations with hundreds of servers ...
 
@JoeWatkins no, I complained back in (one of the numerous) discussions
 
@JoeWatkins It still seems like there is a fear of becoming obsolete or irrelevant that is driving the decision, and I think it is more insecurity rather than practicality.
 
@JoeWatkins backwards incomparability has nothing to do with adoption rates. Adoption rates are a "marketing problem".
 
@NikiC I'm actually having a surprisingly cordial conversation with Pierre in a private IRC room.
 
Why does that surprise you?
 
user895378
9:17 PM
Pierre is very friendly in chat settings in my experience. Sometimes he sounds combative on list, but in general he's quite congenial as far as I can tell.
 
also he gave me a ms license for things
which was nice of him
I totally used it and everything ...
 
On list Pierre says a lot of really stupid things, that's why I am surprised.
 
user895378
Doesn't change how I feel about having to develop for windows environments :)
 
@rdlowrey Large-scale operations aren't going to blindly update to a breaking version. They'd either go through the growing pains of updating, or they'd stick with the working version. Just like large-scale corporate domains do with Windows. Some huge corporations still have Windows 95 running on mission-critical boxes because they have some ancient dead-end hardware running their $20m widget press. They don't upgrade, they can't. Meanwhile, another corporation can upgrade, so they do.
 
user895378
@Chris Right. It's expensive. Which is why things like this aren't as simple as saying, "screw em, break BC."
 
9:19 PM
Or, according to Lester, need some 32 bit driver.
 
user895378
If you start alienating corporate users your technology is in real peril.
 
@Chris I'm not sure that it's a fear if we can statistically see that the more we change the slower to adopt people are, we can see those facts looking at history ... we can see the massive effort that was put into getting people to adopt php5 over 4, and the kinds of changes we would have to make would be a much much bigger change than that ...
 
@LeviMorrison Stupid things are said on the list, not necessarily by a single person ;-)
 
@webarto Did you go Ubuntu?
 
But Pierre is usually stupid on list, I would say.
 
user895378
9:20 PM
hehehe
 
none of this matters because we can solve these problems and leave most of the core and everything else as it is ... it's a matter of identifying the problems and finding good solutions, we don't have to care what the rest of the core is doing ...
 
It isn't "screw em, break BC", it is "Hey, we're breaking. Come along if you can, otherwise, enjoy 5.9x. It works."
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins this is true ...
 
user895378
@Chris They are the same thing.
 
@LeviMorrison Maybe he becomes a different persona on list :)
 
9:21 PM
ok , here is the deal: we are focusing on the wrong thing here
 
Well, at the end of the day, who's burden is it? Yours, or there's? They are making money off it, you aren't. Why should you lift all the weight?
 
BC breaks are not the problem
it's the adoption rates
 
@JoeWatkins can you pop over to the other room?
 
I'm totally there ...
 
let's say we have the old-stable, stable and current releases with 1 year period
if adoption rates were normal, 2+ years are good enough timeframe to prepare for some BC breaks
it's not like the magically materialize on mid-sumer night
 
user895378
9:25 PM
I agree ... the problem is people not upgrading for years and years. 5.6 is about to be released. There is no excuse for people to still use < 5.3
 
some BC breaks just summarize over versions...
 
@rdlowrey :( I had to upgrade a 5.2 to 5.3 last week.
 
user895378
lol
 
And am a frequent user of 5.3 (not through choice).
 
@rdlowrey in past month I have seen two boxes with 5.1
 
9:27 PM
@rdlowrey Yet it is for these people that PHP seems to bend backward to support. Natch, enable.
 
... marketing issue
 
I should be happy to not work yet ^^
 
user895378
@Chris No, it's not for those people ... it's that you can't break BC in a minor release. That's just good versioning.
 
@webarto If you do go Ubuntu you might have an easier time with cinnamon though I don't know much about this stuff. It might appeal considering the switch/dual.
 
user895378
@tereško I definitely agree. You have to sell people who don't really know better on why they need to upgrade.
 
user895378
9:28 PM
"Hey look! Shiny new PHP with all this new shiny!"
 
Microsoft can barely get people to update IE, it takes the Department of Homeland Security to get them to even notice there might be something going on.
 
user895378
Or scare them with "Your old PHP is slow and dangerously unsafe. If you don't upgrade your server will explode."
 
They have millions for marketting
 
@rdlowrey Or, every time you run PHP < 5.4 God kills a kitten :O
 
@Chris and we have millions of people visiting the php.net
 
9:30 PM
And, I understand that adoption would be even more difficult to sell if the proposition was: "Your old PHP is slow and dangerously unsafe, you need to upgrade to the next version, which will not work with your code"
 
basically, what we need are "internal advertising banners in php.net" ... and agreement with adblock developers
 
Yes finally!
/me fixed all the bugs!
 
ok .. I am off to sleep
 
lucky you
night
 
user895378
@tereško 'night
 
9:33 PM
mornings
 
user895378
@DaveRandom morning :)
 
ok people /me is going home and read back the room 11 masacre
 
user895378
E_TOO_MANY_PINNED_MESSAGES
 
On a crappy screen, can't see most of the starred message board
lol, caps-lock fail
 
I see exactly one starred msg :)
 
9:40 PM
I have 8 here, at home I get 2 or 3
One of my co-workers has one of those dinner-table sized Mac monitors... the thing is kind of stupid
One of his screens is like both of mine combined, and he has two of those.
 
@DaveRandom Console-> $('#roomdesc').hide();$('#info').hide();
 
@Chris idk, I kind of get the point, I often find myself wanting a 3rd monitor at work (usually IDE, db admin sw and browser), if I had a monitor that had enough horizontal pixels to fit two on one screen I'd totally use it
 
@rdlowrey unpin some, you have the power :-)
 
Big ass Mac monitors are noice
 
hehe @Jack
 
9:45 PM
@DaveRandom i find myself freq splitting one of the monitors too, 3rd would be ossm (code, docs, other stuff - maybe youtube :P )
 
Hmm, dedicated YouTube monitor ...
 
prolly most of the time
 
@bwoebi Yeh but what? ircmaxell's both need to stay at least until the affected parties have seen them (~48hrs), Shog's "break up this q" request needs to stay until it's been actioned, and the other two are the standard stickies
 
but diff+diff+code/docs
 
Actually I might open an issue on Github for breaking up the PDO q
 
9:47 PM
@DaveRandom actually nothing. Didn't look at the list first
 
@DaveRandom Is he expecting us to synthesise questions around those answers?
 
@DaveRandom I'd rather have a third monitor though. 90% of websites he visits look like garbage. Like a sad piece of garbage floating in a white sea of failed considerations.
 
@CSᵠ I have 3. Thoroughly recommended.
 
@Jack I guess so? /cc @Shog9
 
I've tried 4 before too. Useful but not as significantly so.
 
9:49 PM
@Fabien i'd say 2, one of them 'Full-HD' and the other 1600+
 
@Fabien Did you do 4 in a row, or 2 stacks of 2?
 
@Chris Yeh that would annoy me I admit. tbh if I had two of those things I'd probably have them portrait, I'd feel less weird about using half of one of them that way.
 
@DaveRandom got a better idea?
 
in a row. 3 landscape one portrait.
 
Would like the questions in that list to show up in the title search that happens when folks are asking a question.
 
9:50 PM
2 * 2560x1600 would be nice too.
 
I think 4 would be cool if you had 2 stacks of 2. Like an upper deck. That is where Firebug would live.
 
@Shog9 Doesn't that currently happen?
 
I rotate one sometimes, interesting reading on a 1050x1650, loooong pages
 
@Shog9 No, just wasn't sure what you were asking. I'm not sure how different it is to the rest of the general ref questions tbh - are you generally against those?
 
@Jack try it
@DaveRandom I'm not against this one - I really like it. Just hoping to make the individual topics easier to find
 
9:52 PM
Strange, because the bold parts of each answer are also in the question body ...
 
For the record: Contravariance is a bitch...
 
user895378
Hmm ... anybody know of a quick/easy http proxy I can install to work on a php-src openssl bug when a proxy is used with the http stream wrapper?
 
only searches titles
 
Maybe if we break it up into separate questions but keep the original as a sort of index... would be difficult to do in a way that would keep the index in an proper Q&A format though
 
That's kind of ... disappointing :) @Shog9
 
9:54 PM
@Shog9 yeah, search really does leave a lot to be desired
 
@Chris Not tried. Probably would be pretty cool. Only thing I wouldn't like is that it'd feel like a big tv with lines going through the middle.
 
 
user895378
I'll go one step further and say "search isn't very helpful and could probably benefit from more heuristic analysis" ...
 
Often titles are made up in a way that they're never similar to existing questions :-/
 
To be fair, Google did not come up with the reference question when I searched for the exact same thing.
 
9:55 PM
@rdlowrey Yeah, I agree.
 
@Jack it's what we have to work with right now; ain't the best, but if we can catch a few folks before they type out their question and we have to close it as a duplicate...
And yeah, keep the existing question as a directory
at least until everything is done
there's a ton of stuff pointing at it
 
@Chris actually, we could here do more specific analysis than google…
 
user895378
(I know it's easy for me to say ... extracting meaning from natural language isn't the easiest thing in the world).
 
I can move individual answers between questions if it'll help.
 
searching post and answer bodies should be natural...
 
9:56 PM
That is a situation where a) the search should be better, b) the proposed (by me and several others) ask-a-question wizard could show the answers from some of the top matching questions and still fail to come up with the one we'd like it to.
Meaning, again, that the search should be better, but also that there is value in splitting the reference question into specific, individual questions.
 
@Shog9 If we create those new questions, wouldn't those get cv'ed pretty soon after? :)
 
Protect the question?
 
Well, at least they would show up (unless deleted) heh
 
@Jack probably. Easier to use the self-answer feature then.
 
@rdlowrey charlesproxy.com is easy, though has a stupid name. So you'll probably like it.
 
user895378
9:59 PM
@Danack Just installed :)
 
And maybe leave a comment explaining that it is part of an effort to break up a directory-style reference question .
 
yeah... Create a plan first, then get a few people involved, then make it happen fast. Doesn't have to happen today, but probably good to make it happen before there are 500 questions linking to that one and we're still stuck with no one asking having a shot at finding it.
 
I don't think that's necessary, we have mods that can clear it up later.
 
In case you guys haven't seen this yet:
 

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