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00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

12:08 AM
@Someone XY problem
You have a problem so you are spending time digging deeper to "solve" the problem. Making your code worse by monkey patching it. You will end up with one big clusterfuck if you do that
@Someone I didn't ask about the third param. I asked about the WHERE as a whole
 
12:46 AM
@Someone why would you do that? that's an empty clause (it's a tautology)
 
Huh
Oh man, oh man
I was thinking of making my language I'd hypothetically write compile to JS, right.
But why not PHP? :D
 
It's late... so I present you a failed cat jump gif.
2
 
No, wait, PHP is a horrible target. Alas.
@TheodoreBrown I don't want to have multiple exception types. And I don't think, in 90% of cases, you need to know why it failed anyway.
 
1:02 AM
@AndreaFaulds
 
Original Star Trek is good. Did people have bluer eyes back then? :P
 
@NikiC It has, it's true. On the other hand, it just seems weird to me to allow + somehow. It's unnecessary, all numbers are implicitly positive. But since it doesn't add anything, there's no data loss if we allow it, except that the string won't round-trip.
No wait, I could COMBINE ALL THE PARADIGMS: Pure dynamic strict static weakly-typed procedural imperative functional object-oriented Haskellian C-like Ruby-esque BASIC dialect stack machine intermediate compiles-to-JavaScript language!
 
1:18 AM
Is there a simple way to set the timezone in PHP when using strtotime in combination with a dt row?
 
1:32 AM
@AndreaFaulds How do other languages handle "010"?
 
@TheodoreBrown Either treat it as a leading zero, or treat it as octal.
@TheodoreBrown Because of the octal issue, I think it's best to prohibit it, as some systems might treat "010" as 8 if you pass that to them, and others will treat it as 10. Plus, what if people expect to_int to allow octal? Also, you can just strip off leading zeros with ltrim.
 
@AndreaFaulds parseInt in JavaScript appears to ignore leading zeros.
I really don't care either way about accepting a leading +. There's a case to be made that it should be accepted for consistency with other languages, but on the other hand I can't think of a circumstance when I would actually need it. Accepting it doesn't really hurt anything, though.
 
@TheodoreBrown It doesn't ignore leading zeros. Before ECMAScript 5 it would interpret the string as octal in some browsers, leading to people always specifying base 10.
 
@AndreaFaulds Fortunately I don't have to support IE8 anymore so I don't have to think about this :)
 
@TheodoreBrown It's still best practise to specify base 10, as it otherwise permits hex.
 
1:40 AM
@AndreaFaulds Yep. I don't think anyone has complained about not accepting leading zeros, have they?
 
@TheodoreBrown I can think of one person: @AndreaFaulds
 
@AndreaFaulds lol
 
(I used to want it to explicitly support leading zeros... but I changed my mind)
 
So do we want to accept a leading +?
 
How to accidentally find solutions to problems… use chown instead of chmod and it begins to work (yes, really.) Somehow we cannot set group permissions on a private key generally (ssh command will fail). But when setting an invalid owner (in this case 060 because I wanted to try with chmod 060 (which btw. wouldn't work) and accidentally used chown 060 id_rsa), ssh command suddenly allows private keys having group permissions...
 
 
2 hours later…
4:10 AM
ping @rdlowrey in Arya middleware I am setting HTTP headers based on UA. I have the following code, which produces "exception 'DomainException' with message 'Unknown header field: HTTP_USER_AGENT'"
if (false !== strpos($request->getHeader('HTTP_USER_AGENT'), 'MSIE')) {
if I echo $_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'] outside the function call it outputs the UA. This is all done via CLI server btw.
 
4:34 AM
Common Runtime Library (CRL)
Common Core Library (CCL)
 
@rdlowrey also doing $request->getHeader('HTTP_USER_AGENT') in the if() is returning true so it still runs the getHeader() which still errors.
 
Naming is hard.
 
5:35 AM
@rdlowrey sorry the last message was suppose to be $request->hasHeader('HTTP_USER_AGENT') paste wrong here.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:04 AM
morning!
 
@crypticツ Headers are accessed as User-Agent etc (case insensitive, but with - not _ and without HTTP_ prefix), are you sure about that hasHeader() result?
mornings
 
9:33 AM
mornin'
 
mornihnžh
 
 
1 hour later…
10:53 AM
Mornigin
 
11:09 AM
Replace a semicolon (;) with a greek question mark (;) in your friend's JavaScript and watch them pull their hair out over the syntax error.
2
 
lol, cold
 
11:31 AM
I am bored.... :(
 
Watch Peep Show
 
Neh I want to code something I think
Maybe the feed aggregator thing is a fun way to waste the sunday
 
Room 11 blog
Blog + aggregator
 
I already made up my mind about writing a blog system / platform / thingy -> don't wanna :P
Aggregator it is. Now to find me steal a design from somewhere
 
Unacceptable.
 
11:36 AM
Works for me :D
Now lets see whether the design survives raping by me :P
{inserts peter griffin css gif}
 
Having LESS files included is nice
 
@Fabien I indeed see them. But I have no idea what to do with them? Do I need them?
 
Yes
LESS is a css pre-processor. It allows you to have things like variables.
+ much more
 
Which is useful because?
 
11:40 AM
God I miss the times where css was just that...
 
You can split up your css code in to files to make it a lot more manageable.
I know more about SASS but it's equivocal.
Some LESS stuff in there.
 
mixins are nice
 
Ultimately it means you use less code and it's a lot easier to make changes. Mostly for us the separation of css is nice.
The nesting is nice too. So you can nest stuff declaring it's a child of the parent.
#header {
    a { color: $red; }
    h1 { color: $blue; }
}
 
Damn I need more tools to write css than I use to build an entire php application backend :P
 
You'll need to install LESS. Set it to watch for changes then anytime you save the file it'll auto create the CSS.
It'll be worth it. I wish it was SASS but really there's not a huge difference :P
 
11:47 AM
I'll just start dicking around and see what happens
 
Yes. Just look at a bunch of examples.
 
@PeeHaa hence why I use blogger
 
The last thing I need is this project taking longer then today for the first working project
@ircmaxell Yeah blogger seems to be a sane choice. Multiple people pointed out that solution
 
SASS can come with compass, which give you a LOAD of pre-built functions H'yar
 
sass, less, compass, grunt, npm. Defuck happened to the webdesign community :P
 
11:50 AM
@PeeHaa It's about the investment in knowledge more than the completion of the project. :P
By all means if you don't do much CSS day-to-day or even week-to-week skip it. But if you do, learn it.
 
@Fabien In my normal day to day routine I would hire somebody for this stuff :P
 
@PeeHaa heh. SASS/LESS is pretty cool. From my front-end catchup this year, it's the thing I liked the most.
 
user3949359
12:42 PM
I have a question to anyone interested. So I inspect a landing page with Chrome and there's plenty of HTML evident. However, when I download it/look at the source with Chrome I see home.php which has probably around 50 lines of PHP and no HTML whatsoever. I would like to paste a HTML snippet in the landing page.
 
@nosille Look for xhr requests in the network tab
 
user3949359
@PeeHaa I got 3 items in there.
 
user3949359
All of them using GET methods
 
Doesn't that answer your question?
 
user3949359
@PeeHaa Nope. I still haven't gotten the names of the HTML files.
 
12:52 PM
@nosille Find some unique string in there and search the project
 
user3949359
One small detail: I've never written PHP
 
One small detail: I never intended to even write a single line of code for you :)
 
user3949359
One thing I don't get is how does several lines of PHP result in massive amounts of HTML?
 
I gave up on all that magic @Fabien :P
 
user3949359
1:25 PM
The site uses x-cart, which means that a .php homepage is getting the HTML from templates.
 
@nosille hire a developer...
 
user3949359
@Patrick It's urgent. I have to find the main HTML file. I'm in the FTP root right now and there's zillion files, many of them are HTML, it looks all scattered and confusing.
 
@nosille then hire a developer and pay him extra for the urgency
 
user3949359
There's no time fir this right now.
 
user3949359
not in the mood for your sarcasm either.
 
1:32 PM
@nosille Oh in that case, let me just write some code for you for free on a Sunday afternoon.
 
@Fabien s/equivocal/equivalent
 
@Danack Morning :)
 
@PeeHaa mronings.
 
1:48 PM
hm
anyone with enough knowledge of ZEND_IS_EQUAL?
I'd like to know how it compares objects
(trying to work on bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=68406)
 
@FlorianMargaine return array_rand (['equal', 'not equal']); :P
 
@PeeHaa tss :P
3v4l.org is really dead :/
hey...
this bug is really a case for phpdbg
 
2:04 PM
Oh - add that as a comment on the bug.
 
Derick is Mr Xdebug, and he's also the same person who implemented the crappy datetime stuff. And he doesn't like phpdbg or see a point in it.
 
I'm not especially in favor of free flaming...
 
So, /r/PHP is toxic as usual, why do I keep going there. Reddit is shit.
 
In fact, he's been actively undermining it.
 
2:07 PM
(Pardon my French, but Reddit is shit.)
 
@Danack I'll point out this usage if I get to see the issue with it :)
 
@AndreaFaulds I know - I keep blocking it in /etc/hosts as it just doesn't provide anything of value.
 
@Danack Let me guess: without reading the backlog, is this about Derick Rethans mocking PHPDBG?
 
@AndreaFaulds Actually not quite: bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=68406 +
7 mins ago, by Florian Margaine
this bug is really a case for phpdbg
/cc @bwoebi ^^
 
2:24 PM
damn, actually doesn't help
I thought I could see internal information of the objects...
but no :(
all I can see is this
L10     0x7f983ce48a60 ZEND_IS_EQUAL                  $tz2
@0                   @1
not helpful enough...
 
@FlorianMargaine ah, why are you looking at is_equal?
shouldn't you be interested in the var_dump? That's what causing the modification
the equality just fails due to additional properties that were created there
what you want to do is add a get_debug_info handler for the date object
which should provide the same info as get_properties, just without modifying the object itself
You'd still have the same issue with serialization tho. fixing that would require implementing C serialization
however with the new restrictions introduced in php 5.6 this will prevent supporting the old format, so you have a bc issue
(which is a reason why the new restriction may not actually be a good idea, prevents changing the format)
@AndreaFaulds the blueberry thread?
@FlorianMargaine tl;dr implement a get_debug_info handler to fix that particular issue. serialization should be dealt with later, so we can get rid of get_properties and fix this altogether.
 
@NikiC Yes...
 
@FlorianMargaine well, all we can get via phpdbg is a pointer. But we have no idea what it does cast to… so we can't show the internal state…
 
 
1 hour later…
3:38 PM
0
Q: Rock paper scissors php and multiplayer

Robin van der NoordSo I made this game in javascript: http://jsfiddle.net/robinvandernoord/L9u298br/ I know it isn't very proper js but deal with it.. Now I'd like it if user1 could be on like 'device 1' and user2 could be on another device. I guess if I wanted to do this, I'd have to use a DB right? And I'd have t...

morning
 
Morning @obiNullPoiиteяkenobi
 
Nothing much. Dicking around in a fun sunday project
you?
 
busy in election campaigning ...
 
What do you do for that?
 
3:43 PM
diplomacy ;)
 
Prompt term (type JOIN ) for this request. SELECT * FROM ims,pr WHERE pr.id>80 AND ims.id<3; AND this SELECT * FROM ims,pr WHERE pr.id>80 AND ims.id<3;
 
assign task to other people and make them busy :) my main work is to handle legal issue and :) i am damn politician :D
 
@JoeWatkins lol
 
some people aye @PeeHaa
@obiNullPoiиteяkenobi
Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock is an expansion of the classic selection method game rock-paper-scissors. It operates on the same basic principle, but includes two additional weapons: the lizard (formed by the hand as a sock-puppet-like mouth) and Spock (formed by the Star Trek Vulcan salute). This reduces the chances of a round ending in a tie (from 1/3 to 1/5). The game was invented by Sam Kass with Karen Bryla, as "Rock Paper Scissors Spock Lizard". The game was mentioned in four episodes of The Big Bang Theory. According to an interview with Kass, the series producers did not ask for permission...
 
3:47 PM
@JoeWatkins lol ask him to add .mp4 also :D
 
extremely horrible ...
the whole thing is horrible ... I don't get it ...
I wouldn't learn Japanese, and then hire a translator and take that translator everywhere with me so I can speak to English people, just fucking speak English in the first place, no problem is being solved with these things ...
 
Good morning
 
@JoeWatkins Yeah not sure what all that talk is about
 
@JoeWatkins I think more than anything else it's a side-effect of people starting off in languages that don't use braces - they have a massive productivity loss when they are forced to use languages that have braces....and so they're looking for a way to get back to their comfort zone, rather than getting used to the braces.
 
@AlmaDo Morning
 
4:01 PM
And yeah......braces 4 life.
 
brofist
 
moin @AlmaDo
all that for braces seems mad ...
braces and the removal of terminating semi-colon ...
 
And then not being able to debug stuff in the language it was written - \o/
 
totally stupid
 
4:27 PM
@JoeWatkins Well, I haven't looked but having a language that compiles to language X can be useful.
Depends what's different ^^
 
5:15 PM
All I can say is yuck at the syntax
 
dropping parentheses is okay, dropping braces and semicolons isn't :)
 
Not sold on parenthesis in most cases.
If you mean from function calls, -1. If you mean from if and for, +1
 
Morning
 
@ircmaxell the latter
 
Ok, figured but have seen some languages do the former, and no thanks
 
5:25 PM
@ircmaxell unless haskell, of course :)
i.e. it's okay to drop the parens for fcalls only if it makes sense, e.g. if args are applied individually
 
Going to go back to the hotel and write a blog post "Are we designing programming languages wrong?"
 
morning
 
@ircmaxell I'll read it happily…
 
5:40 PM
user image
4
 
@Danack Fiddling with CSS for 3 hours skews your perception towards thinking that it looks better :)
 
Nah....usually I fiddle with stuff and it definitely looks worse. For example on the last code deploy for a personal site, it seems I broke something and half the CSS isn't being loaded. The site looks way better now so I left it.
 
Are you a LESS expert yet @PeeHaa
 
Nope I gave up on all that shit :P
I only needed to do a couple of overwrites either way so meh
 
:P. SlackHaa
 
5:49 PM
yeap. At least I have made some progress :P
 
Sass is quite nice. I avoid less tho
 
I avoid any client side work.
 
@ircmaxell Aye. I prefer SASS too but @PeeHaa's template came with LESS.
Pretty sure @DaveRandom has to learn it :D
 
-1
 
Someone's been spending too much time on reddit.
 
6:13 PM
?
 
@LeviMorrison Suggestion on return types: If fixing covariance is too much work, just make it invariant and add static and put the RFC to a vote. After all, covariance could be added later.
 
So... we have invariance... but then static...
It's not so much that fixing it is too much work; I think there is no way to do it that will make everyone happy.
That's where the hard part is: making people happy.
But yes, we could initially make it invariant.
 
Having static would cover a large proportion of the use cases for the variant return type.
 
My worry is that if we start with invariant return types we may use that as grounds for not adding covariance: make sense?
 
6:20 PM
You modified it quite a bit aye? :) Looks nice and clean.
 
Basically the only thing that (sort of) works is adding feeds
 
@LeviMorrison Yeah - that was my initial fear as well. But if it's not technically possible at the moment, then the choice between no return types and invariant only is probably clear...
 
It is possible, just with some known limitations.
Ones that some people (notably NikiC) are happy to accept.
 
@Fabien Neh. Just removed the sidebar and that's about it :P
 
@PeeHaa +1
 
6:21 PM
@LeviMorrison Has anyone given an actual example of real-world code that would be affected by the circular class reference problem?
 
No, but in any case it is a known issue. Proceeding without a clear way to handle it would be foolish.
Perhaps it is known and we say: restructure your code to use autoloading.
 
6:46 PM
Invariance with static would still make things an awful lot simpler, though.
Plus, since PHP is dynamically-typed, covariance isn't necessary to the same degree:
if you have Bar which extends Foo, and a function with the return type Foo, you can return a Bar and it won't be typecast to Foo
So covariance is only needed from a documentation perspective: To make things clearer to the user
 
@AndreaFaulds Since classes use virtual inheritance you don't have to typecast at all.
That has nothing to do with variance in method inheritance.
 
@LeviMorrison In languages like C# doesn't it lose its type and become a Foo, though?
 
If you map a PHP class A to C++ world it would be an A* which means it would use virtual inheritance. The compiler wouldn't allow you to use anything from B*, but that's different than casting, per say.
 
Like: function foo(): Foo { return new Bar; }
@LeviMorrison Yes, I suppose so.
 
Because if you stored A& instead of A* then it would truncate.
 
6:54 PM
While PHP would never do that
 
Anyway, this week I'll write up the state of variance in return types and try to go forward.
It's basically those three options we talked about earlier.
Do we accept the known limitations with covariance? Do we do runtime variance checks? Do we do invariant return types?
Static return type is orthogonal to any of those.
 
"Proceeding without a clear way to handle it would be foolish."
That's not obviously true. There's two possibilities: i) You never find a way to solve the circular reference problem, then having invariant + static is better than nothing.
ii) You do eventually find either a workaround, or possibly a just a completely different way of implementing return types. Unless that other method requires a syntax change for how return types are specified, then there shouldn't be a problem with having invariant + static for now, and adding the variance later.
Obviously, the fact that getting variance past internals becomes not certain, is a different matter.
 
@LeviMorrison static makes invariance more palatable
 
static is never palatable for me ^^
 
@Danack My thoughts exactly
 
6:57 PM
Also, s/per say/per se
 
@Danack I don't agree with this part:
> Unless that other method requires a syntax change for how return types are specified, then there shouldn't be a problem with having invariant + static for now, and adding the variance later.
There will be side effects that are observable in user-land.
Well...
 
Ok - I wasn't aware of that. I thought it would be transparent to users.
 
I guess that's not quite true.
I think in every case that is supported by invariance you wouldn't introduce any new side effects to support them if you switch to covariance.
 
That's what I would have hoped.
 
Well, I need to implement smarter invariance checks regardless (right now there isn't anything special going on to optimize this case)
So I'll work on that.
 
Bas
7:07 PM
Evening guys :)
 
Okay... I think someone screwed up master
Time to figure out who last touched the iconv stuff.
Actually...
I guess it could be my OS.
I did update Mac OS X.
Indeed, it is my OS. Sock monkey.
 
7:24 PM
when you once know what a OS update all screws up, it's easy to write some tiny shell script which moves things back to the right place for next update…
 
I think I just need to enable some stuff in Xcode in this case; I'm still updating xcode so we'll see.
Yep, that did it.
 
7:48 PM
Xcode: the biggest joke since OS9
2
 
Everyone, I need a help in javascript
 
@klaudia welcome to the php room
 
@klaudia header('Location: http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/17/javascript');
 
wrong room? but this javascript is for php too
 
which javascript is for php?
oh, you mean that javascript? because this javascript is just a language
exit(1);
 
7:57 PM
4 messages moved to JavaScript
 
hm.. better use /dev/null
 
@ircmaxell well, what definitely is a joke is that we need xcode to download standard unix tools…
 
exactly
hence the statement
 
hehe, the alien in this Star Trek episode is super cute :P
 
8:43 PM
@bwoebi You mean the C compiler?
 
for example.
also autotools, other binaries etc.
 
@Fabien My plan is to get other people to deal with all that crap
 
Lackeys
 
At the moment everything is default bootstrap theme, and that's the way it's staying until someone else comes along who care enough to change it
I don't mind the default bootstrap theme anyway, it's got an air of familiarity about it
Is @m6w6 about?
Guess not
Anyone played with pecl/pq?
 
@DaveRandom he apparently got annoyed by something in here. Try twitter "_m6w6".
 
8:59 PM
@Danack He's still lurking though, I'm sure he'd be up for an actual chat about something he knows about, he's probably just afk
I'm just about to start a project with postgres and pecl/pq looks pretty sexy, I just want to understand exactly what the difference between that and ext/postgres is and how stable it is
 
9:19 PM
 
@ircmaxell Big fan of react, big fan of kicking the crap out of it to see what it can do, but the fact that doesn't say "this is not for production usage" in huge fat red text at the top of the page is slightly worrying.
Intrigued that I don't know who that guy is as well
 
yup
 
let the man dream
 
Also, if there's one thing the world does not need right now it's another schemaless DB engine
 
I'm considering growing my hair out
 
9:29 PM
Don't, I've made that mistake
 
It requires perseverance, that's all
 
> Where applicable the Standard PHP Library (SPL) is used to build on a solid foundation and increase performance.
Uhm...
 
You can't chicken out after a year and cut it, you have to stick it out about 18mths-2yrs until it gets long enough to stay out of your face
@LeviMorrison I also enjoyed:
 
I can do whatever I like
 
> An attempt to memory management is done with the Memory Manager which holds the only reference to memory intense object's (especially Database instances) and allows them to be freed (calling unset() followed by gc_collect_cycles()).
 
9:31 PM
if I want to chicken out after 6 months, I will
@DaveRandom yes, that's quite.... fubar
 
:-P
 
Uhm...
I'm not going to look at the github repository.
Yeah, I've decided I won't do that to myself.
 
@ircmaxell No I meant more the people who say "having long hair is very annoying" haven't stuck it out for long enough
 
ah
 
It's now over 11 years since my last haircut, and it is if nothing else a much cheaper way to live
 
9:33 PM
@LeviMorrison just look at the repo name
it's extremely apt
 
@ircmaxell lol
 
…is it "pos"?
Really?
 
yup
I nearly lost it when I noticed
overall, not a bad day. Sitting in the lobby, enjoying a meat plat, drinking some beer. Going to leave for the airport in 30 mins... Did a TON of walking, almost got mugged, saw some cool things, did some cool shopping. All in all, not a bad day
 
One of those things is not like the others.
 
I gotta be honest, "almost got mugged" is not in my list of things I want in a day
 
9:36 PM
Well played @LEGO_Group http://t.co/9sywBNeBKI
 
@LeviMorrison Are you interpreting it as an acronym for p.o.<expletive>?
 
@DaveRandom still isn't on mine.
 
I suppose the almost makes it non-bad but still... not awesome
 
less bad
I went into fight mode, and took me a while to come down from it
 
Where are you currently, sorry?
 
9:40 PM
Buenos Aires
 
Oooh interesting. Generally nice (aside from the obvious downside of nearly being mugged)?
 
the city itself is a south american city
big, not clean, and not safe. But has its charm
Patagonia was beautiful, but not like Europe
Bariloche and the mountains were twice as beautiful as the Alps, but with half the charm
and again with the safety
the only area I felt really safe in was with the Penguins
 
You're not selling it to me, tbh
I always thought Argentina was more like "just another" western state
 
Isn't Stil Phurgeon currently also in South America?
 
that's what I thought
and no
@AndreaFaulds no, he left a week ago
 
9:46 PM
@ircmaxell Oh, alright.
 
@DaveRandom I'm not selling it to myself... It was worth a visit, but I won't be back soon. Lots of other places to visit
 
Shame. Although as a Brit I'm probably not hugely welcome in Argentine atm, we seem to have got into another argument over the Faulklands :-/
 
lol
Phil almost got in trouble a few times
 
I can imagine. I also don't actually know enough about the subject matter to make a useful comment, I was not actually born when round 1 happened and like every other part of the old empire I just think we should generally "give it back" but (I'm told) it's more complicated than that
Apparently we need that strategic sheep-farming outpost in the south Altantic
The oil reserves underneath have nothing to do with it, oh no
 
I have no idea about it
I didn't even realize how recent it was
 
9:56 PM
So yeah, I found this little CoffeeScript-esque compile-to-PHP language called Blueberry and I'm playing with it
 
Yeh it's kinda bizarre to me that it's not just ancient history like the rest of the colonial nonsense
 
@AndreaFaulds yup, we were talking about that earlier
and yuck
 
@ircmaxell Oh?
@ircmaxell Aw :(
 
@DaveRandom Short version, Argentina controlled the islands for a couple of years a century after they were discovered, and after they'd been controlled by either Spain or Britain the whole time, but haven't controlled them since them. And the real value is control of the surrounding seas.....
 
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