« first day (1471 days earlier)      last day (3477 days later) » 

2:06 PM
@bwoebi ping
 
@JoeWatkins pong
 
come in phpdbg irc room a minute
please
 
there
 
@JoeWatkins @bwoebi did you get some docs written up last night?
 
@JoeWatkins I agree with @nikic on that one...
 
2:17 PM
yeah everyone does ... I think I'll drop it ...
 
I see your point, and I get it
but it's in internals now, making it at least a bit internals business...
 
I'm not developing phpdbg using the internals process, if that's the way it's going, I am out
 
that's the price to pay for having it in core
 
it's not what we agreed to, at all ...
 
:-(
 
2:21 PM
it was even discussed that we require a different development cycle, at least at first, because new software and software as mature as php just aren't compatible, trying to work by internals rules is impossible at this stage, if everyone else thinks it's possible then they can have at it, but I am done, the first time anything that looks like an RFC is put up ...
 
@JoeWatkins we have a different development cycle. Just like we pushed XML protocol into 5.6.3 … If we'd adhere to normal cycle, it only would go into a 5.x or 7.
 
internals process makes some sense for software that has existed for twenty years, software that holds up multi billion dollar companies, it does not make sense for a debugger included in two dot releases, I realize a time might come, and hope it does, when phpdbg is integral to php, but it isn't that now, and I'm not up for pretending ...
 
and that thing also nobody complained about.
@JoeWatkins But, I think, we should drop a note if we ever have major things for phpdbg again and then if no complaints come, merge 2 days later.
 
what I find ironic, is that the person who complains about the process the most, is complaining that it's not being followed when he doesn't like it...
@bwoebi that I think is wise
05:18 <ppetermann> ahoy. I just read your blog, and while i don't know who you mean by the friends you are talking to in your post, i'd like to comment in ligh of our recent conversation. Well maybe commenting is the wrong word, I'd like to give you some small feedback
05:19 <ppetermann> You speak about being a rock, and about people that you have seen as a rock, and honestly, our conversation last week felt like talking to a rock. Maybe you should give some thought about
05:21 <ppetermann> if being a rock is a positive thing. Especially when talking about subjects where a compromise is req
 
Means, give at least a few devs a chance to quickly step in, if there are then no issues, just merge.
A RFC definitely is exaggerated.
And for normal improvements, just push.
@JoeWatkins I think this we can live with?
 
2:27 PM
@ircmaxell he and I read "rock" in very different ways...
 
@bwoebi I doubt it'll go down that way, I'm just going to back away, there's a bunch of other stuff I could be doing, I don't like being that involved in internals, I have serious problem with Derick, this isn't going to work ...
 
@salathe me as well
 
@JoeWatkins don't let internals politics stop you from getting shit done. The latter is what we're here for, the former is an unpleasant distraction.
 
@JoeWatkins do what you've been doing (which has worked). Keep doing awesome stuff, and let others help and worry about the politics
 
internals is it's own worst enemy, I like code, that is all ... I'm obviously done writing code, it's going to get handed over to internals because "that's the price you pay" ... fine, but I don't have the energy ...
 
2:32 PM
@JoeWatkins I didn't say it was 100% bound to that process. I said "at least a bit internals business". meaning that @bwoebi's idea of "dropping a note for major things" is good. If people want an RFC for a specific thing, then great, whip one up quickly. If not, just push ahead. It's respecting others, which is what that whole thread is about...
I am off for the day, catch ya all later
 
@ircmaxell lata
you see it very differently to me, I never agreed to any of this, I specifically didn't want it, I wouldn't have started writing if I had thought this is where the project would end, and it is an end, in my view ...
 
user895378
Hmm ... Derrick is being a jerk. Reinventing an XML protocol wouldn't be necessary if his original protocol weren't so stupid.
 
user895378
Anyone who's ever dealt with client/server communication protocols knows the xdebug protocol is stupid. It shifts the server burden onto clients because its authors clearly knew/know nothing about servers.
 
user895378
Which in turn makes it absolutely unusable in the real world.
 
user895378
Perhaps instead of being obstructionist about new things Derrick could fix his own thing.
 
user895378
2:40 PM
It's not unexpected -- he has a vested interest in phpdbg not succeeding. Still, it's annoying.
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins phpdbg should just be its own separate thing from php. It can be perfectly awesome on its own ... then you don't have to deal with Derrick's whiny BS.
 
user895378
Xdebug is awful.
 
user895378
This is why I rarely read internals anymore ...
 
user895378
Because it's almost all petty and useless. Give me an RSS feed of RFC updates on the wiki and a chat room and I'm all set.
 
@rdlowrey Well, the other way like xdebug (and Zend Studio) do it also makes some sense.
 
2:45 PM
@rdlowrey I don't see why that is the case, none of us care if xdebug exists or not, or how many people use it ...
 
user895378
@bwoebi The protocol is fine. But forcing clients to be servers is idiotic.
 
@rdlowrey You don't get any collisions on ports etc. Has also minor advantages. While having major disadvantages at the same time
 
user895378
@bwoebi Those advantages are non-existent.
 
user895378
Every server on planet earth allows you to optionally change the port number while using a sensible default.
 
user895378
Port collisions are NOT a real problem.
 
2:46 PM
A more concrete advantage is when you don't have a shell.
 
user895378
@bwoebi That has nothing to do with the protocol.
 
(Well, you should always have a shell, but such things also exist.)
 
user895378
Basically all of Derrick's justifications for the inverted client architecture are stupid and make no sense if you understand how clients and servers work.
 
@rdlowrey without shell you cannot invoke phpdbg at all.
but that already were all advantages.
as said, they're just minor.
 
user895378
"You might not have a shell" is another pointless argument -- it treats php like a kindergarten web templating thing. If you're programming you have a shell. Period.
 
user895378
2:48 PM
And if you're not programming you don't need a debugger.
 
that ignores all shared hosting, php's primary domain ...
 
@rdlowrey in theory yes. But if you're deploying on a server sysadmin might not want to guarantee you a shell.
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins who is legitimately debugging shared hosting applications
 
user895378
Shared hosting is PHP's main concern, but it's not phpdbg's or xdebug's
 
@rdlowrey someone who has an issue he cannot reproduce in his local environment.
 
user895378
2:50 PM
@bwoebi It's such a niche case that it's not worth considering when making decisions.
 
it's not phpdbg's, but it's a concern for xdebug, for whatever reason ... then you have to think of all the php developers who are scared of a console, I'm sure we're all aware they are pretty thick on the ground ...
 
I don't have any numbers, but I have a gut feeling that many (most?) shared providers do allow shell access... not sudo but still.
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins Yeah, and if you actually had a usable protocol those developers wouldn't need a console because you could use browser or GUI frontends.
 
@rdlowrey yes. That's what we have xdebug for and now I let xdebug be xdebug.
 
@salathe I don't have numbers but hell no
 
2:51 PM
it's been a long time since I even used it
 
You shitty envs you need shitty tools :-D
 
Shared hosting means 99% of the time no shell access
 
@PeeHaa I could very well be that I've only had experience with shared providers that do provide it... and not by accident. :)
 
And yes I totally pulled that number out of my ass, but I am sure it is pretty close
:)
 
@PeeHaa I've seen enough shared hostings with chroot jail
 
user895378
2:52 PM
The shared hosting is an argument FOR phpdbg. Because PHPDBG has a sane protocol shared hosts could then use graphical/browser frontends without exposing shell access.
 
^ that
 
In either case, the number of people who wouldn't know what to do with a shell if it slapped them in the face... is much higher. :)
 
user895378
Derrick saying that "you don't debug in a browser" only demonstrates his own ignorance and tunnel vision on the matter.
 
:P
 
@rdlowrey you just need to be allowed to use shell_exec etc.
enough dumb shared host who disable it.
 
user895378
2:53 PM
@bwoebi No, the host could actually expose it and you wouldn't need that. Just like how hosts expose a web interface to phpmyadmin but users can't use the shell to execute mysql commands.
 
user895378
^ that's what I mean.
 
@salathe this is probably the main problem ...
that's quite a scary thought, we haven't given any attention to security ...
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins This is my whole point, though. Xdebug is actually the much worse solution for shared environments because it prevents usable non-shell interfaces.
 
@rdlowrey Sure. just do your great phpdbg-ws application.
 
running a phpdbg remote console on a publically accessible port would be terrible ...
 
user895378
2:55 PM
@bwoebi working on it.
 
@rdlowrey on websockets or on phpdbg-ws?
 
user895378
@bwoebi well, one, then the other.
 
@JoeWatkins time for moar great docs?
@rdlowrey You'll finish the former today?
 
user895378
@bwoebi That's the plan, but you never know when E_WEEKEND will strike ;)
 
@bwoebi you intend some kind of authorization mechanism for remote protocol ?
 
user895378
2:58 PM
@JoeWatkins I don't think that's something in the domain of phpdbg.
 
@rdlowrey hehe ;-)
@JoeWatkins that's not phpdbgs responsability.
 
user895378
That's the GUI's responsibility.
 
user895378
Anyway, I'll eventually build that into the websocket thing ...
 
Someone might build a proxy which does that, but that's not important.
 
okay, if you're sure ...
 
2:59 PM
@rdlowrey definitely needed.
@JoeWatkins yes.
2 mins ago, by bwoebi
@JoeWatkins time for moar great docs?
 
I'll do some work on docs later on ... once calm ... still very angry ...
 
then just write a bit code, that help you calm down :-)
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins I think your anger is justified, but try not to let it bother you.
 
can't concentrate ... it'll go away ...
 
user895378
Also known as the "reddit effect"
 
3:00 PM
@JoeWatkins Just ping me when you're ready
@rdlowrey reddit?
 
user895378
@bwoebi Usually when I get so annoyed I can't concentrate on code it's because of reddit (I get that it's not the culprit this time).
 
reddit is rage inducing? :)
 
@JoeWatkins do you plan/want to have the docs in the manual, or just point people to phpdbg.com?
 
in the manual yeah
we're working in markdown right now while we lay everything out and organize it
then we'll stick it in manual in docbook form ...
hopefully we'll get help
:)
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaand another developer (yeah it is me...) is bitten by DST:
Failed asserting that two strings are identical.
--- Expected
+++ Actual
@@ @@
-1 month 3 hours and 5 minutes
+1 month 4 hours and 5 minutes
 
3:03 PM
*blindly ignores hint*
:P
 
:-)
 
@PeeHaa Why does your avatar look like a CSI crime scene?
 
Because halloween
 
@salathe :)
 
@JoeWatkins I was thinking we could just add a new chapter, in the same vein as php.net/commandline
 
3:05 PM
@PeeHaa Ah, hallogeenween for me ;-)
 
holy crap that page as a lot of notes
 
@salathe yes, we got an overview for index, github.com/bwoebi/phpdbg-docs/blob/master/overview.md
and we're just writing the other stuff ...
 
ah cool
 
@rdlowrey reddit never had that effect on me… only internals.
 
user895378
Reddit is like internals except worse because the belligerent folks on reddit believe themselves experts on everything even though they only know PHP. All their opinions about good development revolve around things like framework architecture. It's brutal.
 
3:09 PM
@salathe there clearly was a hint, nothing there one could ever ignore.
 
@bwoebi *la la la la*
 
@rdlowrey but they can't block what you do.
@rdlowrey you just can ignore what they say, it's irrelevant what they say on reddit.
 
user895378
@bwoebi yup. like FIG.
 
user895378
r/php/ is really just a php-fig echo chamber.
 
3:11 PM
@rdlowrey I don't really care about FIG. It's a nice thing to rant about :-D
but nothing else.^^
 
user895378
@bwoebi Nobody cares about fig except fig.
 
the only good thing they've ever done was PSR-4. and well…
… for that we don't need FIG.
 
fig could be valuable, they are to a degree ...
the product of their fucking about is PSR's, they have value, the product of our fucking about is PHP, it has value, fucking about doesn't have value in itself, but evidently results in value, sometimes ...
 
user895378
I agree, they could be. But they're doing it wrong, so it's harmful.
 
@JoeWatkins Yeah, they make us recognize how misinformed normal PHP devs are :-D
 
user895378
3:13 PM
I just chafe when people who clearly know less about what makes a good standard than I do are telling me what to do. Blow me.
 
they have over stepped the mark a little, but, maybe after some (considerable) time, the message in anthony's recent interaction will sink in ... it was never really about the cache psr, it became about that because anthony had to defend his position but in the beginning, it was really about refocusing ...
he opened with a bit about solving the 50% problem, then somehow interactions that followed all became about whether the cache psr was bad or not ... loosing the message I think, but he had to defend his position somehow ...
also the cache psr isn't actually a thing, it's been in the making for three years, it is not a standard ... maybe it won't ever be ...
 
@JoeWatkins please don't read internals now.
Nor reply. Please.
(you've been seriously warned)
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins that's always been the problem with fig -- arbitrary standards.
 
user895378
When you "standardize" things that shouldn't be standardized you're only doing harm.
 
user895378
If they want to do that nonsense they should call them "Framework Recommendations," not "PHP Standard Recommendations."
 
3:25 PM
I'm supposed to ignore that ?
 
@JoeWatkins Yes. He has just shown himself to be a massive knob. Just ignoring him leaves the conversation with just himself looking like a cock. If you reply it will be a case of both sides looking bad.
Just get on and write some code.....and if he asks why you aren't responding literally write back "Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were just ranting - I couldn't see a question in your diatribe".
 
@JoeWatkins I'll reply and hope to make him shut up. Just ignore it.
@Danack + ∞
 
He's just lost the argument - there's no point continuing it.
 
@JoeWatkins at least, don't reply immediately…
 
3:43 PM
I've replied to Derick, accusing him of not wanting to co-operate and not seeming friendly to us.
And invited him to work with me on giving a more positive talk about phpdbg :-D
 
4:11 PM
Hello Good afternoon
What a wonderfull day xD ^^
 
Is scrutinizer (the styles seem to be broken) broken for everyone or just me?
 
4:28 PM
Hello All.
 
Hello.
 
I have a question. I have a session array and i need to add new sub-array inside it. And for that i do $_SESSION['offers'][]['id_product'] = $_POST['test'];
 
okay....
 
and after that the page refresh. And when i try to add a new one is overwrite last one
 
@PeeHaa Seems ok - still horribly designed and misaligned, but nothing obviously wrong.
 
4:29 PM
why ['offers'][]['id_product']?
 
Have any ideea ?
i have allready other sub-arrays. and i whant to add new one in the end
 
Ye but I am talking about the empty [] in the middle...
 
['offers'][] new sub-array and ['id_product'] is the element inside
this is for next sub-array
right?
 
@Danack :(
 
therefor if you set the session ['offers'][]['id_product'] at the beginning of the page, and you refresh it. then it sets that session again with the new value.
 
4:32 PM
@PeeHaa \o/ -
that's definitely not what I'm seeing, make your window smaller?
 
:P
 
ok, can you please advice how to add elements at the end ?
 
Nope utterly broken :(
 
and after refresh to remain there
 
@Essteffan provide some us with your script in for E.G pastebin. So we can take a look to what you have and give you advice on it.
 
4:33 PM
right away
 
I never real like processings in the same script as the requestor, but show it :)
 
ok it is ABP :|
 
in the first place i put all products on $_SESSION['offers'] using $_SESSION['offers'] = $products;
 
That what you get when serving files from people who's businessmodel is tracking people
 
4:36 PM
and this one $html->select_produits_facture_fourn_jquery('','idprod','',''); is give me a select of all products, and after select one it should add it to session
 
every refresh it does this: $_SESSION['offers'][]['id_product'] = $_POST['ascuns'];
following your provided script.
 
so it's a edit page. I get all products from database, i insert them into Session and if i need to add new products..it should add it also in session
yes
there was my problem
 
Just a question, I can't really help you further because I can't get the logic out of this maybe someone else can. but Why do you do POST processing in the same file?
 
it's an old script and i try to mentenance it. the post is used becouse there is a form there
 
hmmm. maybe someone else can help here, I can't find the logic in it.
 
4:41 PM
thanks. i think i've got an ideea
Thanks Mike
 
I did nothing, so don't thank me ^^
 
Thanks Mike!
 
Thanks Mike!
 
Thanks Mike!
 
Thanks Mike!
 
4:46 PM
Thanks Mike!
 
spammahs xD
 

We aren't the thankless bunch we've been made out to be.

4 mins ago, 3 minutes total – 6 messages, 6 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 8 secs ago by Dan Lugg

8
Immortalized.
 
:)
 
Note to myself: never mess around with phpdbg_interactive, phpdbg_clean and main functions. You'll just break everything. \cc @JoeWatkins
 
good mornings
 
4:48 PM
Morning @iroegbu
 
Good Morning @iroegbu
 
If a class implements an interface twice, is that a "code smell"? Specifically, if through extending a class and implementing interfaces, a common base interface appears twice in the graph... Sorta like the diamond problem.
 
That sounds like something dumb....as most class extending seems to be.
 
I could use a trait, but meh.
        MessageInterface
              /  \
        impl /    \ extends
            /      \
  MessageBase      RequestMessageInterface
            \      /
     extends \    / impl
              \  /
          RequestMessage
MessageBase could easily be MessageTrait, which RequestMessage uses, but as mentioned ^^ "meh"
@Danack I don't entirely buy into "inheritance is the tool of the devil" -- composition is better, but not always applicable.
 
> /dev/null likes to listen to your complaints why we should have voted on it.
That's my reply on internals to those who'd like a vote.
 
4:59 PM
Certain things are better represented ontologically.
 
(though not just that lione, but yea…)
 
Extending classes seems to be necessary almost solely due to deficiencies in (most) programming languages e.g. if I want to decorate an class to have some logging around a particular set of calls. But actually implementing entities seems to almost never need extending classes...
 
@bwoebi I think we should just drop it ... this isn't going to go away ...
 
@JoeWatkins as said, give it two days to calm down.
We had just the same drama when phpng was introduced.
And like experience shows, it'll go away.
 
5:00 PM
@Danack Agree; although I do like the hierarchical categorization that inheritance offers.
 
But this is much smaller drama than phpng.
 
Behaviourally, it may not be necessary (deficiencies notwithstanding)
 
@bwoebi that probably won't help matters ... the only real choice I have here is to walk away, we can't remove it from php-src without causing another argument, I am unwilling to be a target, I am unwilling to burden software that existed for less than a year with the internals process, there's nothing left for me to do here ...
 
@JoeWatkins please. Give it two days. Please.
Or do you want to give Derick what he'd like?
 
me and felipe wrote the first version of phpdbg in that long, it's a waste of my time ...
 
5:09 PM
@JoeWatkins That's why… don't bother with internals.
 
I don't care what he likes ...
 
Just do damn code and docs on phpdbg and don't care about internals.
 
@Danack Inheritance aside, do you see anything fundamentally wrong about ^^ that relationship?
 
@JoeWatkins other thing. I have some phpdbg problem, can you help me debugging it?
 
I have a bunch of other stuff waiting for my time, any time we put into properly improving phpdbg is going to be sucked up by internals process, it won't be long before someone from zend pipes up that we have to follow the rules, seriously, you can kick and scream but this is a loosing battle ...
 
5:11 PM
@JoeWatkins Hmm. I've maybe wasted one hour on internals today, and worked for 6 hours on phpdbg today.
And Joe, stop seeing it so negatively :-)
 
every single person that has spoken, bar andrea, has said we need to have an internals like process, there is no getting away from it ...
it is negative, we didn't even get to finish the damn thing ...
 
@DanLugg It's not clear why RequestMessageInterface extends MessageInterface - why not just have RequestMessage implement two interfaces.
 
@Danack Because RequestMessageInterface is a MessageInterface; in places where a RequestMessageInterface is required, it is also reasoned that a MessageInterface is needed; common behavior.
They aren't disparate interfaces, as would maybe be the case for implements ArrayAccess, Iterator
 
@JoeWatkins same thing for phpng…
 
and it got an rfc, and it got a vote, and it wasn't a recurring thing ...
I'm not doing this every time we want to make changes
 
5:15 PM
@JoeWatkins You know what I'm doing just now? code.
because I don't bother about internals.
 
but you have, it's taken your time up ... this is impossible to deal with and move forward
 
If they want a RFC, they can scream the seas full with tears, I don't bother.
 
that's not exactly healthy way to go about our business ...
 
It's the only thing I can do.
 
if everyone is saying it has to work a particular way, then that's the way it needs to work ...
 
5:17 PM
@JoeWatkins but it's not everyone. We two aren't saying so. And then it won't.
Basta.
 
everyone else is ...
 
Don't bother. Because not everyone else is. Also, there are two nuances. The ones want a RFC, the others just want to be aware of changes.
I can agree with the latter category.
Not with the former.
There also are enough which just are in the latter category.
 
5:37 PM
@LeviMorrison I like how anyone can say php.net sucks and propose a rewrite but offers so little to actually rewrite it.
 
@JoeWatkins blog +1
 
5:54 PM
How to comment i.imgur.com/zIQIDMB.png
 
@VeeeneX your comments suck, remove them
 
@FlorianMargaine :(
 
@VeeeneX Also, you have "Aris" and "Aeris" used in the same code; I dunno if they're supposed to be different, but they sure don't look like they are.
 
@DanLugg Yes, thanks I've already repaired it
 
You're stating the obvious.
 
6:04 PM
// start the application
$application->start();
 
Don't comment for the sake of it.
/** I have no idea what I'm doing */
This is the kind of comments I write.
 
Oh, that was a bad idea to share it
 
I can't see why it was a bad idea.
 
I'm just joking
 
@webarto I have written // sorry more times than I can count
 
6:09 PM
@VeeeneX Why is there still code after the return?
 
@bwoebi I'm repairing the code
Someone made mistake
 
@DanLugg based on my experience, whenever you have a $application variable in codebase, it's a bad sign
 
@PeeHaa nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope
 
@tereško public static function main()
 
6:17 PM
@DaveRandom that's a red flag too, yes
... hell, even without the static
 
One of the things that bugs me about event loop driven things is that the last line of the entry point script is usually $loop->run()
There isn't really another sane way to do it though
 
^softcore
:-P
nn
 
@DaveRandom You could create a register_shutdown_function which runs it :-)
 
@bwoebi Is that the very first thing called in shutdown, always?
 
6:19 PM
correct
 
Then yes, you could. But still seems kinda weird and pointless...
I might start wrapping all my application entry point scripts in register_shutdown_function(function() { /* entire application here */ })
 
6:39 PM
hahahaha
@JoeWatkins what's your current mood?
 
@DaveRandom 1) write a quick lib which does that 2) put it on reddit 3) ? 4) profit!
 
I think that probably belongs in boostrap /cc @webarto
 
True
PR that shit
 
No time, doing real work atm
for once
 
@DaveRandom rite work...
 
6:47 PM
No really. Involves money and everything.
 
yay. I like monies
 
7:04 PM
php.net/manual/en/function.compact.php - not sure if awesome or evil.
 
I would opt for stupid
:P
 
@Danack ossm for php4, sometimes useful now
 
yay three magic downvotes \o/ It's been a while
 
7:31 PM
Argh, I hate 5.6 HashTable API
 
7:57 PM
@CSᵠ Or index
Or impotent
 
that needs to be unlocked
 
@CSᵠ Why?
 
@SecondRikudo because lot of answers are comments, pruned then maybe lock again for 'historic reasons' :)
 
@CSᵠ Ping a mod janitor in chat to clean that mess up or flag the question asking for a cleanup
2
But imho that entire question should be burninated
 
lol mod-jan
 
8:06 PM
@PeeHaa Impossible to flag a locked question.
 
@SecondRikudo Ah wow. Damn
 
pinged my own msg here ^^^
lol
true, can't do anyhing on a locked q
 
To the meta mobile?
Summon @shog?
 
hmm
@Gordon maybe?
 
@thiefmaster?
 
8:08 PM
Let my ping reach someeone first
 
:P
 
If you see nothing's done in a few hours meta
 
yeah, yeah...
 
Although Gordon or ThiefMaster might help here as well, sure.
 
what about @animundson
 
8:09 PM
I feel naked without mods in the room :D
 
did i get that right ^ ?
 
@CSᵠ Nope
 
@oded ?
 
animuson IIRC
@CSᵠ He's a dev
 
@animuson then, sorry
this is styrange
 

« first day (1471 days earlier)      last day (3477 days later) »