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09:00 - 14:0015:00 - 18:00

3:38 PM
@Derick StackOverflows content is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0, I don't understand how they can even do this...
I mean, it's probably just the same as GH Copilot. Nobody is big enough to fight Microsoft.
 
Exactly.
As long as LLMs don't adhere to the licenses of works, it's all copyright infringement.
But that needs to be tested legally.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:59 PM
@Derick I suppose it's ultimately not much different from companies just using the quarterly SO dump and illicitly feeding it into their models…
And I would expect it's rather a stack overflow integration somehow than the data directly… but well, I don't have the details.
 
I can see see it now... user asks ChatGPT a question, ChatGPT, trained on SO content, immediately terminates the conversation as a duplicate question
 
Yes, that I also find apprehensible.
LLM training is highly anti-ethical. RESPECT licenses
 
I think LLMs are a good thing. I think Kagi has an interesting approach here, where the LLM is trained to match results, then summarize the best matching results, with references.
 
They can be good, but just like everybody else on the planet they should respect copyright and licenses.
I have to do that.
Companies need to do that.
And if you violate any of the big LLM companies' license, they will sue you.
How is that okay?
 
5:18 PM
I think it's sort of okay that they have some initial rights on their content, what they produced with their GPUs, just given the investment. However given that the LLM is generated by the content of whatever humanity produced, it should also be made available to humanity freely at some point not too far in future.
I think here it's also important to recognize that it's virtually impossible to attribute given the technology itself. And that it's also important that licences do not impede progress by themselves.
Now, the instances where copyrighted content is regurgiated with a very high matching rate without attribution … that's a different story.
I do also agree that they should be required to invest some effort into attributing this.
It should be definitely possible to do a fuzzy matching serach over all their training set data with the generated responses to attribute.
 
"virtually impossible to attribute given the technology itself" that's an excuse.
LLMs trained on cc-by, or GPL code, most definitely should respect the licenses. Co Pilot or Chat GPT does not. They can fuck right off.
 
yes, but a good enough one ... temporaily.
 
I very much disagree.
If you can't play by the rules, you can't do what you want to do.
I can't just do that, so why should mega corps be able too? It's ffing bullshit.
 
you should be able to do the same than the mega corps.
 
I can't violate the GPL
Or attributed-required content.
 
5:26 PM
Yes, I mean you should be able to just train your LLM with the GPL or attributed-required content, when mega corps can. It's bullshit that you cannot, I agree.
 
No, I shouldn't be able. As it would violate the GPL.
 
What does it mean in this context? If the LLM is "learning" from SO, does that mean that a user has to attribute SO whenever they use an answer from SO in their code? In their comments, on a publicly available text file etc?
 
@MarkR First step is that the LLM needs to provide what the source is - that's what attribution means. If it can't do that, it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
 
@bwoebi I don't contribute much to SO anymore, but a major motivator in my junior years was reputation. It's a dumb metric already, but if you don't even get recognition anymore, motivation to contribute becomes 0. Once everybody uses LLMs, where will they get new information from?
 
So if I learn something from SO, and then use that knowledge to teach one of my colleagues, do I need to disclose I learnt it on SO? I think it's a far more complex question than you're making it out to be
 
5:29 PM
@IluTov for me there was a time where contributing to SO was simply fun.
 
@bwoebi Yes, but will it still be fun if you know your content will never be seen directly by a human, and instead recycled by AI with no attribution?
 
I cared about the on-site interactions, not about the users in future. I'm always mildly amused when people upvote some generic question for the 50th time.
I would myself actually just put my SO contributions into public domain if I could.
But I agree that not everyone sees it that way.
 
You can, you own the copyright.
 
@Derick I mean, with a single click somehow. I believe I would have to add a note to the answer text on every single answer or something to do that?
 
By "can" I mean: legally allowed to do it.
 
5:35 PM
Yeah that I know :-)
 
@IluTov It has already gotten much worse in the past years, even without the AI garbage.
Most questions are answered by now :-D
 
Yeah, that's why it's no longer fun. I need an AI which picks me the fun questions :-D
 
@TimWolla It sounds like PHP internals should do its part by introducing new bugs and overly complicated logic for people to ask questions about.
 
I also find that I rely on SO much less in the recent years. Not sure if that is because my knowledge increased or if the documentation of the stuff I use got better.
 
@MarkR Yeah, we missed an opportunity with property hooks to introduce many more semantic details :-D
@TimWolla The former I think. Started doing rust like a year ago, I've been visiting SO all the time. Now that I got better at it, visiting more docs and less SO.
 
5:45 PM
@MarkR We've been doing our part for 30 years!
 
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