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Ven
9:00 AM
you're thinking of genderless
 
remind me to pay for parking in 20 minutes
 
Ven
!RemindMe 20min bartek's parking
 
is a reminder chatbot running here
 
user1804599
Yeah, it's called @BartekBanachewicz.
 
9:13 AM
@ThePhD Jesus
 
user1804599
There is no reason to make for loops a language feature other than "my type system is too primitive to express general looping constructs in a library."
 
> 2016 Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

This document is intended to show my process with getting an Amazon interview this year. So far, it has been a terrible experience, and I have refused to continue with the next step due to strong privacy considerations. https://rajk.me/amazon-interview-experience/
 
@rightfold that being said fuck Clojure
 
user1804599
;p
 
user1804599
Well Clojure has a type system so weak that it can express loops in the library.
 
user1804599
9:16 AM
Type systems are kind of funny.
 
I did run hprof on my program yesterday
 
user1804599
If it's very weak, you can do a lot. If it's very strong, you can do a lot. If it's in between, you can't do very much at all.
 
Java.lang.reflect was the hot path
well, in terms of call count at least because obviously hprof is kinda shitty
 
user1804599
Use *warn-on-reflection*.
 
user1804599
It will make the compiler emit warnings when it wants to use reflection.
 
9:18 AM
@AlexM. Holy shit
 
@rightfold that doesn't help me get rid of it
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I would've noped the fuck out at the "disconnect monitors" part, leaving the security thing aside
 
I mean, I don't know what to do to get rid of it
 
no company making me mess with my hardware is worth the trouble
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz A few things you can do. One is to use type hints: clojure.org/reference/java_interop#typehints
 
9:19 AM
what do you gain by working at amazon anyway
the chance to write a HN post about how bad it is to work at amazon
3
 
"You will not be allowed to right click the exam"
Seriously?
 
user1804599
lol
 
Who comes up with this bullshit?
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz ring! ring! ring! 20 minutes elapsed.
 
@Ven thanks
@rightfold oh
@AlexM. basically
 
9:23 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes HR, of course.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah I had that happen to me before, it was super annoying
I was taking a sort of online exam and I pressed Ctrl
NOW YOU AREN'T TRYING TO CHEAT ARE YOU
(I was)
but that's clearly besides the point
 
what if
amazon only hires those guys who are able to bypass the restrictions
:O :O :O
 
@BartekBanachewicz They had me at "online exam".
I'm out.
 
user1804599
F12.
 
A test I can do on my own, offline, even if there are strict deadlines, I'm ok with. If I need to do some online bullshit, I'll look for a job elsewhere.
 
9:27 AM
yeah that's much better
I was taking a CodementorX test recently and they gave you two options, do it online or just upload the solution
but that Proctorio thing is just beyond reason
 
user1804599
\varnothing is so much better than \emptyset.
 
Procterio
the test your test could smell like
 
Oh, especially out if I have to install any specific software for the test.
 
@rightfold so will that fast? I need fast.
 
nwp
@AlexM. Maybe the point is to test commitment, not to test skill.
 
9:29 AM
@nwp I won't commit to BS though.
 
I only commit to trusted repos
 
> However these are infeasible for most non-technical people, so I don't think it's a real solution.
but that was an interview for technical people
I'd also simply run in VM
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah that stood out too
 
nwp
@MarkGarcia then you are clearly not desperate enough to work for amazon
 
but these tests are also given to non-tech people
in other domains
 
9:30 AM
yeah, that sucks
OTOH it's a funny assumption that you have a camera
 
I don't
how could I resist showing the world wide web my middle finger 24/24
 
Well the one in my desktop can be easily disconnected
also I'm finally getting a haircut :O
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz No idea.
 
nwp
> WE FOUND A DRIVER FOR A WEBCAM ON YOUR COMPUTER. YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO BYPASS EXAM RULES, ARE YOU?
 
Well I think they're "eye tracking" technology could simply mean HR people watching you. Block the camera and they'll know.
 
user1804599
9:32 AM
Write it in Java if you want it fast.
7
 
'cks sake
 
user1804599
You will get neither downcasts nor reflection.
 
now I have to star it
@nwp we found porn on your computer as well
and your credit card picture
 
"hmmm it seems you've been watching a lot of Omas.Uber.70.XXX.P0RN0LAT!0N.HD.720p.mkv.torrent"
"WHEN CAN YOU START?"
 
also heck BMW is building car charging network in europe
I was thinking that I could really use an electric car recently
 
Ven
9:34 AM
  std::unique_ptr<char *[]> a = std::make_unique<char *[]>(s);
> you make me sad
 
user1804599
I'm so confused.
 
Ven
you are you
 
you do you
 
Ven
yes, often.
 
that's not what I... forget it
 
Ven
9:35 AM
:)
 
25 minutes until hairdresser appointment
why isn't it called haircutter
 
user1804599
git bald
 
user1804599
go full Andy
 
nah I just want to make it more manageable
 
I'm lost in this web of callbacks and observers and nothing is ever making sense I don't even know if this thing I have is a string or number I don't know anything
 
Ven
9:36 AM
Andy Browltek
 
I just write crap and then Ctrl + J in the browser to see if I was right
most efficient development 2016
 
nwp
@BartekBanachewicz maybe the same reason why a software developer isn't called a typist
 
@AlexM. and the funniest thing is that it actually is pretty efficient
 
compared to what, not doing anything?
 
doing full-blown static typing
 
9:37 AM
or having a compiled language with proper typing
 
it's more efficient at times
 
dynamic typing feels dumb, but when you measure speed of development for small-sized codebases...
 
not now, when I need to move data around and it takes various shapes
 
Just the feeling dumb itself is pretty shitty though
 
Ven
9:37 AM
it's more efficient if it's a PoC you're gonna throw away in 1-3 months.
 
@nwp "coder" eh
@Ven IOW most of development (except it's not thrown away)
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz no
 
ember also makes me use strings for property names
not even the editor can help me there or the linter
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz some people like it that way, some others...
 
"watch our bro you're setting shit that doesn't exist"
 
user1804599
9:38 AM
Dynamic typing is a stupid idea for small code bases.
 
user1804599
It's absolutely dumb and retarded.
 
Ven
like everything you say
 
@AlexM. I'm sure some guy made a VS Code extension for that. :)
 
Ven
One of my costudent just signed for a company where they promised him he wouldn't work on the smae project for more than 3 months.
I find that utterly stupid.
 
user1804599
A bit like lack of parametricity and referential transparency.
 
9:39 AM
@rightfold one can dream
 
user1804599
Not having those and types in a small code base is an implementation and maintenance nightmare.
 
@Ven yeah, kinda
@rightfold sufficiently small code is manageable regardless of bullshit
 
there's only so much idiocy you can put in n bytes of source code
 
my latest bug was me forgetting to change one of those names
it was referring to a prop that didn't exist anymore
 
9:40 AM
@AlexM. can't you make some constants?
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz where sufficiently = 0
 
@AlexM. Configurability!
 
@MarkGarcia I don't think so, no
the ember extension has no checks for this
 
user1804599
With sufficient proficiency, types have zero mental overhead.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you mean I should have
 
9:41 AM
last time I checked you could do const VisualConfiguration = 'visualConfiguration';
@rightfold the former being key
 
@AlexM. Make a medium post about your problem, submit to HN, ???, profit!
 
`myPropertyName: "myProperty",
myProperty: null`
for each property
nah that'd be inconsistent with the rest of the codebase
 
that's better than magic values I guess
Also
 
everything about this language and framework
stinks of workarounds and patching
 
global[myPropertyName] = null;
@AlexM. JS was made in two weeks, what did you expect
 
Ven
9:42 AM
@AlexM. I think TypeScript has string unions for that kind of stuff
 
I also know TypeScript is superior
 
Yeah, why no TS?
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz In two weeks, I'd expect a compile-to-js language. :P
 
> the rest of the codebase
there is a codebase
it's written in ember + JS
 
9:43 AM
why?
 
@AlexM. Then propose adding TS and gradually add typings
 
I can't propose adding TS lmao it's a project well into development and I have no say
 
I wouldn't work in a project where I have no say
That's basically being a code monkey
 
ok
 
user1804599
Propose rewriting the whole thing in PureScript with Halogen HEAD. It'll be like 0.001% the total development and maintenance cost.
 
9:45 AM
nothing stops me from proposing TS
 
but I have:
 
if you have sufficient arguments I don't see why it shouldn't be picked up
 
Hi guise
 
0 influence over any of the people who actually chose this and maintain it
 
9:45 AM
Sup?
 
@AlexM. proposing things to them is influence
making a rational argument is
 
a broad idea about why TypeScript is better and nothing else
 
> Ember.js is built for productivity. Designed with developer ergonomics in mind, its friendly APIs help you get your job done—fast.
Sue them for this claim.
 
user1804599
btw Yoneda embedding is cool.
 
@AlexM. then change it from a broad idea to a concrete improvement plan
 
9:46 AM
I'm not going to propose a platform change, forget it
 
just ranting about how the codebase sucks isn't gonna make it better
 
Ven
@rightfold why wouldn't you Yoneda
actually Coyoneda is superior.
 
@AlexM. I can give you a rewrite story from my company where we did a full JS->TS move
 
being the guy who says "hey I just joined the project, LET'S CHANGE EVERYTHING!"
 
There are many blog posts about incrementally turning your codebase to TS.
 
9:47 AM
is also not gonna make it better
 
@AlexM. :)
 
Ven
@rightfold wow you're great at imagining figures
but it turns out rewriting it to purescript would make it 234802984978234% slower as well.
 
user1804599
@Ven they are different things
 
@AlexM. you're putting in fresh perspective btw
that's a good thing
 
user1804599
@Ven Coñoneda.
 
9:48 AM
I'm done with the topic
 
Ven
@rightfold o_rly
 
Don't blame others for the state of the codebase you own is my work motto.
If you own it, own it.
 
Social media website Reddit, known for its commitment to free speech, will crack down on online harassment by banning or suspending users who target others, starting with those who have directed abuse at CEO.
almost tempted ...
then I remembered that my ambition is not trolling all internet sites
 
user1804599
Is there a decent graphing tool for Windows? Like Grapher that ships with OS X?
 
MS paint
your buddy on Window OS
 
9:51 AM
Excel.
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
Wolfram Alpha :[
 
wolfram alpha doesn't even let you zoom in
 
user1804599
4
Q: Is there something like Grapher.app for Windows?

Albert ArmeaOn a Mac, there is a Grapher.app which has many functions like: ordinary graphing, polar graphing, lin-log and log-log graphing, 3d graphing, derivatives, integrals, implicitly defined functions, equation solvers and much much more. Is there anything similar (and preferably cheap/free) on Window...

 
user1804599
Nice.
 
9:53 AM
unless you pay
 
Ven
I really wouldn't like being the one to maintain Word, Excel or whatnot.
 
those apps are still widely used
 
Hey lads I'm rather confused of an error I'm getting. "no matching function for call to 'stat'" however I have included sys/stat.h, so I shouldn't be getting this error.
 
Ven
yes and that's totally irrelevant to what I said

C++ Questions and Answers

Solve problems and approach solutions. Just ask and lurkers wi...
 
9:56 AM
Not sure why you're linking my the main page Mark
 
poor guy is now confused
stop sending him in two diff places
 
@Paludan 3 cents betting on your got signature wrong
 
Ven
holy hell
 
@AlexM. he might split in two
 
twice the fun
 
9:57 AM
Wesh bro @Ven. Any maintenance stuff on a mature app is hellish
 
split into two? that's how some single cell organism reproduce
 
So I assume this was the wrong place to ask for advice
 
yep, the chatroom mentioned above
 
Ven
@Paludan yup, this is a lounge to chat :)
 
is the place to ask questions
 
Ven
9:57 AM
@Rerito yeah but if you never fail you never learn
 
I'll check that out.
 
Ven
you need to make mistakes to learn from 'em
 
Sure but no need to make me feel like an idiot for asking :)
 
GOD DAMNIT MARK
don't listen to mark
he's the resident asshole
 
A simply "Oh dude wrong chat" instead of linking to the page.. Like honestly that's ridiculous.
 
9:58 AM
@Paludan Basic questions that can be answered by reading the compiler error messages are not welcome
 
@Paludan You should feel bad, the answer can found after a cursory Google search
 
Ven
@Paludan I linked you the correct chat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Rerito are you assuming I haven't read the compilers message? Also Mikhail all answers I already found are telling me to include the header I've already included. Yeah Ven thanks man I wasn't referring to you ;)
 
@Paludan but ... if a user is an idiot, should we lie to make him/her feel better?
 
@Paludan And he linked you the chatroom dedicated to asking C++ question... So you can go there and ask your question. No need to act like such a fragile snoflek
@Paludan And he linked you the chatroom dedicated to asking C++ questions... So you can go there and ask your question. No need to act like such a fragile snoflek
 
9:59 AM
Telkitty I doubt you can judge wether someone is an idiot from one message.
8
 
is there still room in that bikebunker
I feel like I need to run for cover
 
@Paludan Read again, but carefully this time
 
@Paludan I never said I infer someone is an idiot base on one message
 
I guess it's room owner-less time right now.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Virtualization can be detected.
 
Ven
10:02 AM
robot was here just a minute ago
 
less than that ...
 
Ven
:P
 
@AlexM. Ouch. I've only been back for a short time and...
 
I'm just trolling nw :P
 
Ven
10:10 AM
@Rerito ça sert à rien ce que tu fais frr
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
Unlike escodegen won't ever generate syntax errors.
 
Ven
yup michael ficarra worked on it
 
user1804599
Who is that?
 
Ven
A guy I know from Coffee.
He also does PureScript nowadays :).
 
user1804599
10:20 AM
Nice.
 
user1804599
10:30 AM
Nice, Airbnb pwned by Amsterdam for advertising illegal accommodations.
 
user1804599
It's not legal to rent a place for more than 60 days per year without a proper license.
 
I find this track soothing while coding
 
user1804599
10:47 AM
compileReactor (Where condition : subsequentClauses) =
    compileReactor subsequentClauses <#> \subsequentReactor ->
        evaluate condition
        <#> (_ == Boolean true)
        >>= when `flip` subsequentReactor
 
user1804599
So beautiful. <3
 
Ven
(_ == Boolean true) is pretty ugly
 
user1804599
eq (Boolean true)
 
user1804599
@Ven how about tacit
 
user1804599
compileReactor (Where condition : subsequentClauses) =
    (when <<< eq (Boolean true) <=< evaluate condition) <$>
        compileReactor subsequentClauses
 
user1804599
10:52 AM
:3
 
user1804599
That's actually pretty nice.
 
Ven
yup yup
 
nwp
@rightfold Why is it necessary to write Boolean? Doesn't the language know that true is a Boolean?
 
Ven
it's from an AST
 
user1804599
Boolean is a data constructor that takes a Boolean and returns a Value.
 
nwp
10:57 AM
so true is not a value?
 
user1804599
true is a Boolean, not a Value.
 
user1804599
Boolean true is a value. Boolean is a function takes a Boolean and returns a Value.
 
Ven
:D
 
user1804599
data Value
    = Boolean Boolean
    | String String
    | Array (Array Value)
 
Ven
array of array
 
user1804599
11:00 AM
Compare with:
 
user1804599
struct Boolean { bool b; };
struct String { string s; };
struct Array { vector<Value /* C++ is retarded */> v; };
using Array = variant<Boolean, String, Array>;
 
Ven
qualifications tho
 
Hey. I'm quoting Bjarne's book here:

The representation can be private (as it is for Vector ; §2.3.2) and accessible only through the mem-
ber functions, but it is present. Therefore, if the representation changes in any significant way, a
user must recompile. This is the price to pay for having concrete types behave exactly like built-in types.
Is this not kinda bullshit?
 
user1804599
No.
 
@EnnMichael No?
 
11:02 AM
"This is the price to pay for having concrete types behave exactly like built-in types"
That's the part that bothers me
 
user1804599
Why?
 
Because, you know what rust did?
 
nwp
@rightfold what would be the definition of true there?
 
user1804599
If you change the private data members, the size and alignment of the value may change.
 
user1804599
Rust has the same problem.
 
11:02 AM
With the struct and impl keyword?
 
user1804599
If you have a private field in a Rust struct, and you change its size/alignment, you must recompile everything that uses it.
 
Yeah, but you would only have to recompile the implementation file
Not all files that include the header
 
user1804599
Rust only has implementation files.
 
@EnnMichael No, you must recompile everything that uses it
 
@EnnMichael In C++, that "file" should be plural. Many, many files. That's what you pay.
 
user1804599
11:03 AM
Yes, you have to recompile all files that include the header if the class is defined in the header.
 
good morning vietnam
 
@EnnMichael Unless you do pimpl.
 
it is painful to say this but rightfold is correct
4
 
user1804599
You need a level of indirection to avoid this. For example, pointer to implementation (PIMPL).
 
Wait, but if I have a pimpl, I change the pimpl struct, I don't have to recompile
Hmm. Okay.
 
11:05 AM
@EnnMichael Yes that's the point of pimpl
 
user1804599
The same is true for Rust.
 
user1804599
But nobody minds recompiling Rust code because Rust has parametricity and thus compiling a simple program doesn't take decades.
 
that and the fact that nobody really writes Rust anyway
 
And if I didn't have a pimpl, or an indirection, but C++ did somehow let me declare class representation in implementation files (let's just imagine it somehow does), upon changing that representation, why would all source files using its interface (the interface of this class, i.e., the header file) also have to recompile?
Like, my brain fails to realize why this is so
 
@EnnMichael Blame 70's style linking model
well, actually the linkers are smarter now but they still have to behave as-if they're dumb
 
11:12 AM
@EnnMichael Because changing an int to char would change operations in assembly.
 
Well that's what I thought, but people here said I would have to use a Pimpl
Yes, Mark, but it wouldn't change the interface
So it's only a relink of a function, no?
 
the ABI is the interface as far as linker is concerned
 
unless you change the function signatures to use an opaque pointer free functions (aka revert to a C-style api)
 
@EnnMichael You are saying the size of a type is not part of its interface
 
I didn't say that.
 
11:13 AM
but pimpl does just about that with a bit nicer syntax and RAII
 
> a bit nicer syntax
 
@EnnMichael Then, you are contradicting yourself
 
Okay, I get it now. Thanks @GundolfGundelfinger
@milleniumbug I like the as-if reference there, good work
 
nwp
@EnnMichael To put objects on the stack you have to know its size, including private members. If you are willing to give that up you just store pointers to stuff and don't care how big objects are, at the price that you need more memory and break your cache. Both can be useful.
 
@nwp Got it
Thanks
Also, does anyone here ever use the inline keyword?
Or write member functions inside classes
 
11:22 AM
I feel like we need a canonical "You CANT overwrite string literals" answer somewhere.
It's the cause of so many runtime errors I see on questions
 
@GillBates lol people using C++03
 
@milleniumbug Even C++11 compliant compilers still compile it, although with a warning.
 
fairly sure no
ok, it actually emits a warning, not an error
 
in that case we need a canonical "stop being a retard and don't ignore warnings, especially if you don't understand them" answer
 
11:25 AM
+1
 
nwp
@EnnMichael Yes, it is super useful for putting function definitions into headers. Will be using it more when C++17 allows inline on variables.
 
Ven
Wow we're in the lounge
I thought this was the Q&A chat..
 
@nwp Well, it's the only proper way.
 
@nwp But do you measure first?
I'm particularly scared of the inline keyword and run as far from it as I can
 
Ven
@GundolfGundelfinger unlike @Griwes
 
11:28 AM
@EnnMichael Nah, I think the consensus here is that you do it to appease ODR (One Definition Rule).
 
nwp
@EnnMichael measure what? I suppose you could call compiling "measuring if it is proper C++", but that is a bit strange.
 
Well, functions defined within classes are automatically inlined
 
@EnnMichael lolno, they're inlined not inlined
 
You're trying to say it's only a hint?
 
that's a difference
not even a hint, it's blatantly ignored
 
11:30 AM
it's not even a hint it's purely a linker directive
it means "if you see another definition of this function don't give an error"
that's all it means
 
Young Lithuanian civilians fearing Russian attack don military fatigues on weekends and learn insurgency tactics. http://apne.ws/2goOvlJ
look at those retards
 
nwp
unless you do gamedev, then you have #define GAME_ENGINE_FRAMEWORK_API static inline
 
"gamedev"
 
and compile as a single compilation unit
 
11:35 AM
@Abyx why? can we stop with the anti-russian hate already?
 
oh good lord, just trying to get ansible to print out the value of a variable so I can debug it... simple right? NOPE
 
@GundolfGundelfinger why what? nope.
 
why are you saying russian are retards
15
 
ugh
do you even read
 
no I'm listening to your messages through TTS
 
nwp
11:48 AM
> can't find linker symbol for virtual table for `sol::basic_table_core<false, sol::reference>' value
found `bool QAtomicOps<int>::deref<int>(std::atomic<int>&)' instead
seems legit /cc @ThePhD
 

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