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12:02 AM
int main()
{
    int[][] a = new int[2][4];
}
 
@MooingDuck hmm.. that seems like more of a complaint about the semantics of vector's operator[] than the lack of a matrix class
 
^ That did not compile.
 
@CheersandhthAlf in Java?
 
[d:\dev\test\member_pointers]
> g++ x.cpp
x.cpp: In function 'int main()':
x.cpp:3:8: error: expected unqualified-id before '[' token

[d:\dev\test\member_pointers]
> gcc x.cpp
x.cpp: In function 'int main()':
x.cpp:3:8: error: expected unqualified-id before '[' token

[d:\dev\test\member_pointers]
> _
 
@je4d No, vector has it's place, and it's a good place, but a 10x10 vector of vectors requires 10+ allocations, and way more memory overhead than a 10x10 matrix.
Also a vector of vectors is error prone as individual rows can be resized separately. Sometimes you want that, and sometimes you want a rectangular matrix.
@CheersandhthAlf I'm not surprised that g++ can't compile java code.
 
12:05 AM
@MooingDuck why are you posting java code?
don't you know that java arrays are not type safe?
 
@CheersandhthAlf to demonstrate something that Java has that is awesome, that I thought should have been put in the C++11 standard library
 
ok, c++ arrays are not type safe either, they are in fact even worse
isn't that like
vector<vector<int>> a( 2, vector<int>(4) );
 
@CheersandhthAlf a[2].resize(11); //should not be allowed
@CheersandhthAlf also lots of allocations and memory overhead
 
@MooingDuck Propose it!
 
12:10 AM
@CheersandhthAlf there are lots of use-cases for rectangular arrays, where it doesn't make sense for one row to be longer than another
@RMartinhoFernandes that takes skill and motivation, I have neither
 
I thought you had motivation. If not, why were you whining?
 
it seems that the only advantage of the java version is that the bounds are not part of the type of the variable?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes whining is easy
 
Anyway, boost.multiarray works fine for runtime-size multidimensional vectors.
 
@CheersandhthAlf and all rows and columns resize togeather
@RMartinhoFernandes yes, boost.multiarray is exactly what I wanted in the STL :(
 
12:14 AM
On questions about compile-time sized ones I just drop this link and go away ideone.com/oycrc.
 
@CheersandhthAlf "it seems like the only advantage of the vector over the C array is that the bounds are not part of the type of the variable"
 
@MooingDuck No, they don't.
In Java, all multidimensional arrays are jagged.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes wait really? frick. There goes my example. really? gah
 
Your example would simply NPE.
Or not compile at all.
In C#, you have jagged arrays (T[][]) and non-jagged arrays (T[,]) as separate types.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh, then I wanted that second one in the library, we already have the first one
 
12:18 AM
Just an idea.
 
@Moshe I'm pretty sure that's impossible to be able to reach the data directly and also know where it is on the HD at the same time.
 
@Moshe I believe you need to run in kernel mode (or in FUSE) to read raw filesystem data.
 
Would work stealing be good for a system that executes tasks with priorities?
 
@Moshe whomever's email it is you want, it's not worth the effort :P
 
@MooingDuck Not email actually. pwd for recovery to recover a folder.
 
12:37 AM
I'm going to be leaving for a while, because this site has turned to shit. Mostly due to crappy users, but the mods aren't helping. Look after my tag for me
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Take it easy man. I've also noticed that the quality of questions has gone down a bit in the past two weeks. But I just avoid them and try my best to seek out the occasional diamond question...
 
1:01 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's difficult not to read that as "I'm so much better than everyone else."
2
 
Why do people feel they need to announce that they're leaving? What are we going to do, beg them to stay?
 
You think people shouldn't say goodbye?
 
Depends on the person.
 
His link was basically about how someone didn't know how to do arithmetic so he was taking his ball and going home.
 
1:16 AM
I think he's taking SO a bit too seriously.
 
Reading reviews on amazon, it seems SSD technology is not very reliable. Many report problems after a months or even weeks.
Not sure if I should get one.
Also many normal HDDs seem to have reliability issues. Or is that just a warped view because mostly people with bad luck write amazon reviews?
 
@FredOverflow I don't think I've ever seen a drive with more than 3.5 or 4 stars
The issue we noticed with SDDs is that they don't die slowly, it's not like you hear a few clicks and decide "oh crap, better replace my drive," it's just dead
 
I have had a 200 GB hard drive in my system for over 5 years now. It seems it's impossible to buy a hard drive that lasts this long these days :(
 
inb4 "they don't make them like they used to"
 
@CollinHockey Yeah, and I read of people constantly updating their firmware. What are we, beta testers?
 
1:24 AM
@FredOverflow If you want some hard numbers from me, I've accumulated about 30 hard drives over the past 5 years. 3 of them have failed. 1 got damaged in shipping. 2 died from having 3000+ reallocated sectors.
5 or 6 of them have lasted 3+ years as boot drives (none of them failed)
 
Do you have hard numbers on SSDs?
 
I have about 18 drives dedicated to extremely heavy loads, but never sustained for more than a week at a time.
@FredOverflow I've had 2 SSDs. The first one was the original write-bricking ones. It's still running strong. The other one was an OCZ Vertex 2. It died after 10 months and took about a week's worth of work with it.
 
Wait, if I buy an intel CPU at €100, I get crappy on-chip graphics for free? :) Seems like a waste of money.
 
@FredOverflow Which chip? Are you building? Or buying a ready-made system?
 
2100
Just thinking about building :)
 
1:29 AM
No wonder I didn't recognize that model number... I haven't been following the dual-core ones... lol
I haven't tried the Sandy Bridge on-chip graphics... so I can't say.
 
I don't think I'll ever need a Quad Core. I just don't want to waste the watts for nothing :)
 
Overall I'd say: Don't build unless the retail cost is over €500. The higher end the machine, the more you save by building.
Unless the point of building is for the fun. :)
 
Well, what I would really want to to is let the seller build for an additional fee.
Because I always tend to buy components that have compatibility issues.
And I would really like to have the warranty.
lol, the 2120 is 200 MHz faster and only costs 76 cents more? :)
 
If you build, warranties will be on a component-by-component basis rather than the whole machine of course. But in your case, you're probably better off just buying.
@FredOverflow That's the same case with 2600 and 2600K. $30 more for essentially 1+ GHz more since the chip overclocks like mad...
 
What exactly do you mean by "just buying"? Buying a standard system, or buying individual components plus building fee?
 
1:37 AM
Buying a standard system.
 
Naa, I hate standard PSUs and CPU coolers.
 
There's really only three reasons to build:
1. Save Money
2. Have fun/learn
3. Extreme customization
 
I like 3.
 
Well then...
 
EXTREEEEME customization.
 
1:39 AM
@FredOverflow Post a part list, people can check it over. It's harder to mismatch parts nowadays, stuff is getting more standard
 
In fact, thinking about the components is way more fun than actually using the computer later. In fact, I think I'll just spend several days customizing, and then get bored of it and never actually buy anything :)
 
I can probably do a part audit for you from just looking at it.
 
Well, here is what I have so far, but keep in my mind that I haven't done any hardware research in 5 years:
 
As long as everything plugs in, there aren't too many gotchas - aside from maybe ram compatibility.
 
i3-2100, MSI PH61A-P35 (total shot in the blue), 8 GB DDR3-1333 (dunno what brand yet), Crucial M4 64GB SSD, WFD20EARX HDD, some optical drive, some case, some PSU, some CPU cooler.
@Mysticial RAM compatibility is exactly what bit me the last two or three times.
Is there a CPU comparable in performance to the i3 but without the integrated graphics?
 
1:42 AM
Ah! :-P
@FredOverflow Nah... I think they all do now. Unless you go back to the Nehalem i3s.
 
Looks all compatible to me
 
@CollinHockey I hope "some case" and "some PSU" go together well :)
 
as long as the case is large enough, no problems there. PSUs are all the same size
just make sure you get an ATX case
 
What else would I get?
How does the i3-2100 compare to my current Core2Duo E4300?
 
Don't think I've seen one that wasn't now that I think about it
 
1:46 AM
Looks compatible. You'll want to make sure that your ram is listed in the supported ram list for that mobo according to the manufacturer.
 
Probably cooler and more energy efficient
 
Ok, I'm trying to create a class to represent rational numbers.
(classic hw problem apparently)
> A boolean-valued member function isInteger that returns true if the receiving Rational is an integer.
 
Also pay attention to the layout of your motherboard and make sure they won't hit anything in the case.
 
@Moshe Does your CPU burn up in flames when the divisor is 0?
 
@FredOverflow lol, supposed to throw something or another
 
1:47 AM
Especially if you're using a tower heatsink
 
@Mysticial Never done that.. I just buy the cheapest stuff I can find at the right speed grade :-P
 
@CollinHockey It's more of a problem for servers than desktop boards.
 
@Mysticial Eew, I hoped all motherboards would have a standard layout by now :-/
 
how do I tell if a rational is an integer?
 
1:48 AM
@FredOverflow You've never laid out a circuit board before
 
If the numerator and denominator are the same?
 
@Moshe If it's fractional part is 0?
 
@CollinHockey Especially when you get into single/dual rank on the Opteron boards. And Fully-Buffered/Registered...
 
@CollinHockey huh? the top or the bottom?
 
@Mysticial In my experience, those RAM compatibility lists usually contain outdated or otherwise rare modules that are practically impossible to find.
 
user406009
1:49 AM
@Moshe You should probably be normalizing your rationals frequently. When the denominator is 1, then it is an integer.
 
@Moshe Oh, you're representing them as fractions.. if numerator % denom == 0
 
@FredOverflow Not the layout of the board, but the stuff you put on it. For example, a fat tower heatsink can hit your video card or get in the way of taller ram modules.
 
@Moshe If bottom divides top without rest.
 
@FredOverflow If you're using an i3, you probably don't need a fancy heat-sink and fan.. the stock cooler will be plenty, and they're flat
 
@FredOverflow so: return bottom%top == 0
 
1:50 AM
@Mysticial What video card? I'll just use the crappy i3 on-cpu-graphics ;)
@Moshe No, top%bottom == 0
 
ok, thanks
 
But make sure bottom isn't 0 first or you'll get a division-by-zero error.
@CollinHockey Have stock coolers become more silent over the years?
I really don't want to hear disturbing noises from my computer when I'm working.
 
@FredOverflow We take care of that by disallowing it to be set to 0 in the first place, doing so throws an exception
 
@FredOverflow It was just an example. When I was building this machine, I had to measure everything before I bought the parts:
 
@FredOverflow I was always ok with the one that came with my E4600
 
1:52 AM
Power supply almost hits heatsink...
 
Tiny little case will do that
 
Is it me, or is that case unusually small?
 
There was less than 3mm clearance between the ram and the CPU fans.
@FredOverflow It's a micro-ATX
 
What about onboard sound, is it good enough for listening to some music and watching DVDs?
 
I built it knowing I was gonna hand-carry it on a plane.
Sound is fine. It's nowhere near as demanding as video.
Unless you're really hardcore with massive speakers and a 7.1+ setup or something...
 
1:54 AM
@Mysticial Why would you carry your PC on the plane, are there no LANs in your immediate neighborhood? :)
@Mysticial no, good old analog stereo here :)
 
@FredOverflow I built it during my internship in Seattle. I was gonna carry it back to school in Chicago.
 
How much time between the building and the journey?
 
user406009
You know you could just use a laptop. Avoid all the heavy, power sucking parts.
 
@FredOverflow almost 2 months.
 
@Mysticial You couldn't wait 2 months? :)
Oh crap, already 3 in the morning??? Gotta hit the hay. Bye!
 
1:57 AM
@FredOverflow My main machine went down during that internship. So I didn't have a computer to use at my apartment.
*And I needed something more powerful than a laptop...
@FredOverflow Night!
And here's an (old) picture of the other machine where I had to measure everything and plan carefully:
Mainly because the heatsinks run right up to the drive bays... So the majority of the e-ATX cases couldn't fit it.
 
user406009
2:40 AM
Anyone know the easiest way to convert letters into morse code on-off-wait sequences?
 
lookup table?
 
user406009
Making the table manually will be a bit of a pain though.
 
4:52 AM
well, I just played through almost all Alan Wake in about a single seven-hour playfest
 
 
2 hours later…
6:44 AM
Wakes up.
 
7:01 AM
@ScottW It worked
 
sbi
@MooingDuck I was once proud because I hadn't checked in a single crash in years. (I did cause a few crashes that were caught by my testing, but probably not more than once or twice a year.) Then I switched jobs, and were handed a shitty piece of badly hacked code. Before I decided to scrap and rewrite it, I tinkered with it trying to fix it, and so checked in my first crash after ~7 years. :( IME it all comes down to using proper, modern C.
@EtiennedeMartel For those who had seen him here: This is the new handle of Tomalak. Given that, I'm at a loss as to how else to interpret it.
@RMartinhoFernandes There's a difference between saying goodbye and announcing to your peers you're leaving because your peers are shit. Also: I've seen him in the chat two or three times. Every time it ended in shouting and him bringing up most of the room against him. So, no, I don't think he should come here, not even to say goodbye.
@ScottW For some of us, it's not so much about waking up as about finding the time to procrastinate on the web. You wrote that at 7:33am my time, by which time I was already very busy bullying some of my kids out the door, and had been for more than 45mins.
How was your exam, @Cat?
 
Good. 27/40.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus What's that mean?
 
Points.
 
sbi
7:18 AM
@CatPlusPlus That's <70%. In my book, that wouldn't be a Good, but only a Satisfying.
 
That's >50%, that's enough.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Yep, that's how I graded, too.
 
It's only a part of the final grade anyway.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Well, congrats anyway!
What was it about? Math, IIRC?
 
Heh, Tomalak has managed to alienate even this room?
 
sbi
7:37 AM
Dec 14 '11 at 13:25, by sbi
@TomalakGeretkal Surprisingly (or not, I dunno), the very same thing happened when I saw you here last time. And IIRC @jalf wasn't even involved. Of course, when everybody else is driving the wrong lane, in theory it could be everybody else's fault. In practice, however, it rarely ever is.
(Now I chased everybody away reading those old fights.)
 
Time passes too slowly.
 
sbi
7:58 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes You poor sod. maybe you would pass some of your time to me? I wish I had more.
Isn't the fact that I need to ask that a sign that Lu-Tze has been sweeping abroad too much, and forgot to take care of the monks properly taking care of the procrastinators? Or did he become too absorbed with his bonsai mountains and simply, er, forgot the time?
 
8:10 AM
:)
 
sbi
I should have signed that as Sbi, The Eternally Unsurprised.
 
8:26 AM
Tomalak left? Well, that's nice
 
Let's try that again ¬_¬
Morning all
 
hi
 
hi
 
@jalf who is that tomalak actually? everbody is talking about him though, I have never seen him
 
With regards to the talk the other day about fixed or variable time step. I am moving towards playing with robotics, and thus simulation, so precision is more important then speed. So I am going to model physics such that I can pass in a variable time step, but this will be sued so that I can control how fine grain I want the physics, so I might only pass 10ms as delta, or I might go 'crazy' and tell it to use 0.01ms
I think I might mean uS there :S
 
8:43 AM
Lightness Races in Orbit, Nottingham, United Kingdom
53.7k 6 62 132
Tomalak is his old handle.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh ok, that guy. and you guys don't like him?
 
I don't mind him. But that's not the most common opinion of him around here.
 
@bamboon follow back sbi's replies, sounds like a bit of a nob to me
 
@bamboon I don't like him, no. Can't speak for anyone else
 
of course, that is based on a very small transcript, it could just put him in a bad light
 
8:48 AM
meh
 
but mainly we just disagree about a number of things, and believe questions should be answered in different ways (or, in his case, not answered at all and just closed and burned)
 
@ScottW Hmm, I thought that was @DeadMG.
 
a classic disagreement is that he thinks the correct answer if someone asks something that involves the word "STL" is to pretend to be confused because "there's no such thing as the STL in C++"
which is technically correct, but not very helpful
we' must have butted head over that one a dozen times or so
 
@jalf well that's new's to me... is it just, the C++ standard library of something?
 
8:51 AM
Yeah, the STL was a library developed by Stepanov, and based on this, he wrote a proposal for the standards committee
to include a set of classes and functions derived from his STL library
 
@jalf oh ok, such things are annoying, uselsss nitpicking
 
but STL technically refers to the original library
 
oh right, so when did the STL get merged into C++?
 
the bits that got included into C++ are just "a part of the C++ standard library"
 
@thecoshman Ages ago.
 
8:52 AM
@thecoshman in the 98 standard.
 
IIRC wasn't 98 the first standard C++?
 
yeah
 
Oh, you're my age.
 
but the language existed before then. It just wasn't standardized, and didn't have a specification
 
when I was 15 :(
 
8:53 AM
but his point is that the word "STL" doesn't actually appear once in the C++ standard document
 
so basically, there was a draft version of C++ and some guys library called STL, and then, bang, C++ with a good library as standard?
but people still referred to it as STL
 
I think Visual Studio 6.0 also appeared around 1998.
 
nah, the 98 standard contained a million other changes and improvements
 
@thecoshman Because it's an effective way to communicate the intent. That is, unless you're talking to Tomalak.
 
the inclusion of a STL-like library was just one of the proposals
 
8:54 AM
but that's that jist as far as sTL cares
 
At the moment, we have a subset of the standard library which looks and feels very much like the STL, and in fact is nearly identical to the STL. At the same time, the "original" STL has completely lost its relevance. No one uses it, because we have the same thing in our standard library. So when we say "STL", it's generally clear that we're talking about the standard library subset. :)
anyway
 
I guess we could say "the STL library".
Then if someone comes along to complain, you say you mean the library STL maintains.
In your face.
@ScottW Only if you know someone whose initials are ATM.
 
lcd display
 
@RMartinhoFernandes heh, nice one
 
@fschmitt Again, my example is not redundant.
 

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