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5:10 AM
> This OS has no memory protection, no user IDs, and no permission system. Any code can do anything. Messages are passed around as raw pointers; they're not copied. Nor is the size sent with the message. And it's all in C. What could possibly go wrong?
Rust comment in 3... 2... 1...
> It seems like small, custom systems like these without memory protection should at least use a safe language like Rust.
too easy this isn't even fun 0/10
 
5:28 AM
I did not realize how many different ways Boost has of offering concept-type stuff.
It's all kind of awkward though.
Boost::TypeErasure might be one of the most promising ones, but it looks really awkward, and... not something I'd want to explain to someone new to C++. :-/
 
So, is Swift any good?
 
@Mikhail I just noticed this. Is the memory compatible with that board?
I haven't checked closely yet, but at first glance, I'd have assumed that the memory needs to be ECC.
 
@caps I don't grok that stuff.
 
nvm, it is ECC when I clicked through it.
 
@StackedCrooked I don't think I really grok the implementation...
But the effect is incredible.
 
5:33 AM
Just double-check that the memory is one of the officially supported models for that motherboard.
 
@caps yeah it’s a great lib
 
And make sure you choose the right RDIMM/LRDIMM. LRDIMM lets you put more sticks per channel. But they're also more expensive IIRC.
 
Like this:
any<
    mpl::vector<
        foo<_self, int>,
        foo<_self, double>,
        copy_constructible<>
    >
> x = ...;
x.foo(1);   // calls foo(int)
x.foo(1.0); // calls foo(double)
Now you can assign any type that is copy-constructible and has foo(int) and foo(double) members.
There's concepts! Right there!
 
That's kinda underwhelming.
 
It's significant because it is runtime polymorphism on a concept without inheritance.
 
5:41 AM
@Mikhail You should get this board: newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182940
 
And putting that in a header will kill the buildservers.
 
And put a pair of those 18-cores along with 1.5 TB of memory.
 
It defines an interface (must have these functions) AND constraints on a type (like copy_constructible) without forcing the actual types passed in to inherit from anything or be known at compile-time.
@StackedCrooked Yeah. :(
 
@Mysticial I have no budget for CPUs
 
@caps Maybe I just don't see it.
 
5:42 AM
The other problem is when something goes wrong.
Can you imagine the error messages?
 
I'm just not sure it's usable enough for everyday code at the 9-5.
The behavior is very much what I want, though.
 
Or what if you have a bug. GDB will hate you.
 
Yeah. No kidding there.
 
@caps it’s subtly different although related
e.g. you can have EqualityComparable<int, double> as a concept but you can’t turn that into a type-erasing thing
the relation is that some concepts can be faithfully erased, just not all
 
5:46 AM
@LucDanton I recognize that it's different. I just mean that it would allow me to write code that specifies the requirements of the types that it operates on without a) forcing them to inherit from an interface or b) be known at compile-time.
 
@Mysticial I don't quite get why that board is better, is it because of the larger ram support?
 
:)
Anything less than 1.5 TB is lame. :D
It looks like you need 64GB DIMMs to reach 1.5 TB.
 
Yes, but those don't exist
probably
 
@caps related topics include Adobe.Poly and std::function<Sig> in case that last one wasn’t obvious
 
64GB DIMMs are going for 2 grand a pop?
I found one for 1 grand.
 
5:48 AM
I get the feeling I’m forgetting about another one, oh well
 
So $24,000 will get you 1.5 TB of ram. ahahaha
 
@LucDanton Adobe.Poly?
std::function is useful, but it requires heap allocation.
 
@caps do I have bad news about any<…> for you
 
> Free shipping over $100
ahahaha
 
@LucDanton :-( (although it's not very surprising...)
 
5:50 AM
how come I can put an arbitrary-sized array inside an any<…> a = std::array<int, as_large_as_I_want> {}; (as long as such an array is a valid model of course) :)
 
@Mysticial Well you can find 24GB RAM SGI machines on Ebay for like 200 dollars
 
I also discovered this evening that I think I like boost::variant more than I realized.
 
@caps the folks at Adobe have been longstanding fans of the technique (there’s a talk or two) and Adobe.Poly is a library in the same spirit as Boost.TE (probably, never looked into it)
 
I can't wait to see what Skylake-EP will bring. 256GB in a single-socket desktop?
 
@LucDanton I know Sean Parent has talked about a less generic form of it.
 
5:52 AM
@caps boost::function allows up to 24 bytes of local storage.
If you go beyond that it switches to heap allocation.
 
Good use of boost::variant: stackoverflow.com/questions/18859699/…
@StackedCrooked To store the pointer to the function?
 
probably an older page on the topic from them, if nothing else we can notice they’ve decided to call it 'runtime concepts' (which, pointedly, emphasises they are not concepts of the regular kind)
 
@caps It's great. But unfortunately it's a bad one for compile times. Make sure to not expose it in a top-level header.
@caps And lambda capture state.
 
@caps oh right, Boost.TE has the killer feature of converting between any<…>s
 
@StackedCrooked I guess it doesn't have any ram slots for you to put in more memoy?
 
5:53 AM
Adobe.Poly uses the other approach where it’s not an option
 
24 bytes isn't a lot.
 
@Mysticial Yes, just think of the money density!
 
@LucDanton When the conversion doesn't lose any of the requirements, right?
 
@Mysticial Usually all you need to store is a function pointer. A "this" pointer and maybe an extra something.
 
@Mikhail Not necessarily. Right now you can get 8 x 16GB for under $800. So a single socket Haswell-E with 128GB.
 
5:54 AM
@caps no, that’s something else (and any lib can do that)
 
@LucDanton I'm not sure what you're referring to, then.
 
@StackedCrooked So a function pointer is like a USB. Universal plug whatever the hell you want into it. :P
 
Erm. Are the interviews getting to ya?
 
@Mysticial muh cachelines
 
@StackedCrooked Well, I was thinking of wrapping it to represent a generic socket. That is, given types TCPSocket and UnixSocket, we could have a GenericSocket class that has a member boost::variant<TCPSocket, UnixSocket>. The GenericSocket could be used as the parameter (or member) of functions (or classes) that operates on both types of sockets as if they're the same thing.
 
5:56 AM
@caps any<vector<foo>> a = any<vector<foo, bar>> { … }; // forget about bar, no double-boxing
that’s the sole difference, Adobe.Poly should be as powerful as Boost.TE save for that bit
 
@LucDanton That's what I meant.
 
anybody can do e.g. function<double()> f = function<int()> { … };
 
@StackedCrooked Or perhaps a function pointer is a way to let you download more ram?
 
any<mpl::vector<foo>> is less restricted than any<mpl::vector<foo, bar>> so the conversion is allowed.
 
downloadmorecachelines.com
 
5:57 AM
@Mysticial coarrays
 
@caps I often resort to the Impl<T> pattern for that. (Not sure how to call it.)
 
@LucDanton That's not what I was referring to, although I see why you think that.
 
@caps the killer feature is lack of double-boxing
 
coarray download-more-ram fortran
 
@LucDanton double-boxing?
@StackedCrooked Hmm. Example?
 
5:58 AM
yeah remember when you didn’t want a memory alloc? boy have I got even more bad news
@caps whenever type-erasure takes place that’s one instance of boxing (often with an alloc, barring cute optimizations)—but when you want to convert from one container/wrapper to another unless you’re careful you havo to box again
try it at home
 
@caps this is Sean Parent's talk.
 
@Rapptz Mostly-but-not-quite.
The use of variant means the types are all known at compile-time and also no heap allocation.
 
@caps Yeah, the talks title was clickbait, very little substance.
 
@StackedCrooked This is basically how I'm doing it right now:raw.githubusercontent.com/wiki/sean-parent/…
@Mikhail I disagree. Great talk.
I was actually referring to the comment he made.
 
6:03 AM
@Mikhail You go for the E7 Haswell Xeons. 8 x 18-core + 12 TB of memory.
 
@caps welcome to double-boxing town
 
Specifically:
> Until we have some better compile time introspection in the language, library solutions will continue to be fairly complex to use.
 
That's 288 graphs in task manager.
 
@LucDanton How so? (Still not 100% following what you mean by "boxing")
 
@Mysticial I think we're gonna discover that the translation lookaside buffer is actually O(N^1.00001)
 
6:05 AM
That's the problem I have with the type erasure library. It looks really powerful and expressive, but... complex to use and possibly difficult to understand.
 
@caps It requires a heap allocation and uses dynamic dispatch. It provides a strong encapsulation though.
 
@Mikhail Use large pages.
 
@StackedCrooked :D
 
@caps eh don’t worry it only takes place when there are 'neighbouring' concepts, which kinda won’t happen on accident
 
That's exactly what I was referring to! :)
 
6:06 AM
@HubertApplebaum excuse me i.imgur.com/j7eHjqt.png
 
@Mysticial Windows' license doesn't support that
 
@Mikhail Yes it does.
 
@Rapptz this guy looks familiar
 
I've been playing around with it since December.
 
it’s really only a concern with something like function<Sig> because all it takes to have a similar-but-not-the-same concept is to tweak the Sig, and then you may box again and again without noticing
for one-off concepts/containers that aren’t even templates then you’re good to go
@caps ya hafta put it into balance with the alternatives
 
6:07 AM
@caps lol just saw your gist
 
@HubertApplebaum is that you
lmao
I didn't take you to be the youtube commenting scrub
 
do you know many huberts applebaums
 
Erm. Never mind.
 
@StackedCrooked I wondered if it's what you were referring to with Impl<T>. I call it model.
:28845764 lol
 
IMO it's one of the cool things you can do in C++. Along with CRTP.
 
6:09 AM
@StackedCrooked I really need to learn how CRTP does. All I know right now is what it stands for and that boost::iterator uses it.
 
@HubertApplebaum only 3
 
@caps the box is where the arbitrarily-big array goes
 
@LucDanton For the most part I don't really think of type erasure as something I would do within a block of code. I would put boost::any<constraints> as a member of a class (in which case it would take it in the constructor) and also as a parameter to a function.
So I suppose the only place that a conversion would happen is if some function that takes an any calls another function that takes an any. Pretty feasible, really.
That is, it's pretty likely that I'd end up doing such a conversion in the process of making a function call.
 
I don’t recall if Boost.TE has a safeguard on that front. I made sure to have one on my end.
 
@LucDanton In this case, I think the fact that the codebase is not just managed by C++ gurus is enough of a reason to not use such a complex library. The learning curve on it...
 
6:13 AM
gotta any<…> a { force_erasure, another_but_different_any }; to force double-boxing
 
Anyway, good chatting with you, @LucDanton @StackedCrooked . I need to go to bed.
 
@caps well you read and replicate 2 tutorials and you’re done, when it comes to using Boost.TE (which is the first thing you should attempt)
 
6:39 AM
I'm running into a compile-time shenanigan.
 
Ven
7:12 AM
Existential operator crisis.
I heard someone tried Perl once, and they got operator poisoning.
 
Xeo
7:28 AM
@ThePhD When do you not, when do you not...
 
> Why We Look down on Low Wage Earners
IRTA "Why I Am An Elitist Privileged Retard"
 
@Xeo But it's not my fault!
Seriously, uh.
So, like. Someone can create a fancy new constructor.
 
@HubertApplebaum Hackerman approves this git client
 
my cringemeter
 
I think that video broke mine.
okay, back to my bikeshed
 
8:01 AM
> unexpected end of input; expecting end of input
4
 
morning lounge
 
Ven
Yo
 
user1804599
8:22 AM
Hello, world!
 
user1804599
@Ven look how cool ideone.com/MMAmic
 
user1804599
x.N and x.type#N are the same type!
 
Ven
8:39 AM
it better
 
@Nican I see two half keyboards, shades and a deck of cards. Fuck that hipster shit
 
user1804599
So all you need for path-dependent types is singleton types and type projections.
 
Ven
@thecoshman b-but they got the power glove! I love the power glove. it's so bad.
 
@thecoshman Enjoy some extra cringes: youtube.com/watch?v=KEkrWRHCDQU
 
8:45 AM
To make Clang happier, I’m continuing to purge non-Standard MSVC extensions in our STL headers. Today’s discovery: in-class specializations.
wow
 
Ven
what are in-class specializations?
 
some MSVC extension
 
Ven
@Nican how's that cringy?
 
@TonyTheLion would that pinned link of Rapptz work for inviting peeps to discord right?
 
user1804599
Ref[x.T] forSome { val x: Outer }
 
user1804599
8:47 AM
oh god this is so obscure
 
@thecoshman yes
 
When did STL start working on MSVC? Seems like he's mostly getting rid of shit, rather than adding stuff, which is good.
 
user1804599
existential path dependent types
 
Hey Campers, don't forget the annual sobriety mocking convention is only this long away! Big news will be posted here, because Stockholm Syndrome, but private chat will happen on Discord (no Slack this year)
9
 
@thecoshman He's working on Microsoft's implementation of the Standard Library
 
Ven
8:48 AM
ah, I see now. Well, doesn't seem like a terrible feature actually?
 
pin plz
@TonyTheLion only last few years though right?
 
@thecoshman he's been at it for a few years IIRC
what did you think he was doing?
 
Ven
 #define CREF(A) const A&
lol.
 
@TonyTheLion exactly that, but yeah, only recently-ish. Shame it took so long for him to get on that job
He seems to see the value in sticking to conventions
 
Xeo
@Zoidberg Rex<T>
 
Ven
8:52 AM
Rekt<T>
 
> Cruz: If I am elected, we won't draft women into military.
So much for gender equality. Amirite?
 
Gender equality only goes 1 way you sexist pig
That's why it's called equality can't you read you misogynistic oppressor
 
> Cruz: Apple should be compelled to help unlock San Bernardino killer's phone.
I really don't like this Cruz.
Whoever he is.
 
Ted Cruz, a Republican Presidential Candidate
> David Cameron blocks compulsory sex education in classrooms across the UK
but why
isn't sex ed like a good thing?
 
Not if it's compulsory :P
 
Ven
8:56 AM
they want to ban sex in the UK
 
UK to ban encryption and sex. More at 11.
 
@Zoidberg I don't get it, what's the purpose? Doesn't this result in a stack overflow due to the mutually recursive constructors?
 
@TonyTheLion it is yes...
 
I figured
Cameron is so full of <great> ideas
 
8:59 AM
It looks like Trump will be the next POTUS
 
where great mean "bullshit and has no"
 
user1804599
I'd rather have a lack of sex education than be enslaved to dictator Juncker.
 
@TonyTheLion (compulsory sex) ed
 
If we don't teach kids how to have sex, it'll be up to their uncles
 
user1804599
9:03 AM
> 1. Anyone who can read is literate.
2. Dolphins are not literate.
3. Some dolphins are intelligent.
4. Prove: someone intelligent cannot read.
 
wat?
 
@Zoidberg beautiful logic
 
what the heck is ` std::experimental::parallel::rotate`?
 
take two parallels and rotate them until they're secant
 
Like the 32nd parallel?
 
9:12 AM
could be
 
Fifty-four Forty or Fight!
fucking british
 
user1804599
Logic is great.
 
invalid assignment left-hand side
 
are globally unique identifiers guaranteed to be unique in space?
 
user1804599
9:15 AM
no, there is no guarantee
 
s/guar.*/supposed to be unique in space\?/
 
user1804599
There is a probability, and under the assumption that UUID generators are of sufficient quality, this probability is sufficiently high.
 
> The term "GUID" typically refers to various implementations of the universally unique identifier (UUID) standard.
ah that's what I was missing
 
user1804599
And even if the probability is low, it is likely still high enough for your application.
 
user1804599
It doesn't matter if two unrelated applications generate the same UUID.
 
9:24 AM
Hmm, sounds like COM
 
building boost 1.60 fails at boostrap.bat
what the fuck
 
probably couldn't find the compiler
make sure to export it
 
 
Ven
"realplayer" ouch
 
@Mikhail It found it
It builds a bunch of stuff and then fails with
> The system cannot find file C:\Program Files (x86)\Boost\boost_1_60_0\tools\build\src\engine\bootstrap\jam0.exe.
 
9:39 AM
guys, has anyone here have used mysql workbench?
 
yes this is the mysql workbench room
 
perfectly
I'm getting an error and to solve I must edit my.ini
 
The PhP room is a better place, their language exists to display data from SQL
 
ok. Just ask hubert and i'll leave
 
He was making fun of you
 
9:41 AM
Yeah, he was joking
 
I'm used o it
but if he can solve, i dont mind
 
Ven
you seem to be. here, take a stamp
 
wow why is everyone picking on me I am leaving this room
 
I just need to know ehre to find my.ini. I only find my-default.
 
Ven
9:42 AM
@HubertApplebaum you can take my stamp
and my Haxe
 
Jan 30 '15 at 2:30, by Borgleader
"Hi I have a question about my retirement fund"
"Sir this is a convenience store..."
"I know but it's the only thing open at this hour"
 
I blame the long compile times
others blame the long data types
 
Hi, 'm stupid.
Yes we can all see that.
But I have to prove to anyone be being more stupid.
 
Is it shit post Friday yet?
 
Ven
not until cicada says so
 
9:48 AM
The new mailing is out /o/
 
Ven
@Morwenn pls giff us
 
I can't; I am not on my laptop.
 
funny, I just said on my call what equates to "I'm pretty much gonna slack off today"
 
Ven
@Morwenn what do I do now T_t
@BartekBanachewicz well, I'm gonna discord in. huehuehuehueuhuehue
 
boost 1.60 is not building with msvc 14
no trace of anything in logs
help
 
Ven
9:54 AM
who you gonna call when boost doesn't build? STL!
who you gonna call when msvc fucks up? STL!
 
can't you get a newer version?
or possibly don't use the one on git because the one on git is broken
 
A newer version of what
 
@Mikhail 1.60 is the latest
 
Did you get boost from git or from the online download?
 
the online download
 
9:57 AM
try git, then
although honestly, if bootstrap is failing your environment is pretty fucked
 

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