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11:00 PM
@sbi So are there Iranian companies blocking us for having the word "soccer"?
 
sbi
@Shog9 Because they wouldn't even get through, man.
 
@sbi what? Why wouldn't they? Because they couldn't get here to start with to complain about?
 
@MooingDuck because Iran has some pretty serious firewalls restricting all internet access? It's not just a few dumb companies having silly IT policies.
 
@sbi sigh... Look - we block Amazon's EC2 service. That means we block a ton of proxies. Which means we block a bunch of users in Asia. We still get emails from them. If you actually need to use the site, you find a way.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Block none! Every word is considered offensive by someone somewhere in the world, and some asshole will block it in his company. Lest you want to bow to the mullahs, bow to no one.
 
11:01 PM
meaning it's automated stuff, and you can't just ask your boss to please send an email to SO support
 
@sbi That's a very nice philosophical position to take.
 
sbi
@Shog9 Isn't that an argument against censoring?
 
@Shog9 that's a terrible argument. That completely invalidates the reason for any censorship here
 
sbi
@Shog9 No. It's a practical.
 
@MooingDuck It's not an argument.
 
11:02 PM
@Shog9 concession of defeat?
 
@MooingDuck If you think I'm trying to "win" something here, I've done a horrible job of communicating. So sure.
 
@sbi I disagree, I think blocking a few words to get SO to as many people as possible is a good thing. If you can give common keywords that Iranian firewalls block on, I'll start flagging them in the future.
 
These are the facts. This is how it is, and why it is how it is. It is not negotiable.
 
@sbi, given you're accusing others of forging rationality in favour of cultural values, it's pretty funny how far you are in favour of idealism over practicality.
 
It's not something I control, or SE controls. It sucks.
 
11:04 PM
@Shog9 you're put in the position of defending censorship, and you seem to have been doing so :D
 
@Shog9 so the fact is that the word "fuck" gets blocked because it offends white male americans, despite the fact that "if you actually need to use the site, you find a way"?
 
@MooingDuck Again, lousy job of communicating on my part. I hate that we have to censor Brainfuck.
 
I'm sorry, but that's an absurd thing to say
 
sbi
@MooingDuck You got me wrong. If the mullahs block this site, let them do this, and let us not bow an even inch to them.
 
@jalf Oh, I'm sorry - I mean "you find a way to send us an email complaining about it"
That explains some of the confusion
 
11:05 PM
@sbi I'd miss you all :*(
 
This was in response to someone saying that if we block you you can't email us
which isn't true
web and email are different systems
 
@Shog9 oh, that makes more sense
although I'd suspect that people are more likely to find a way around the firewall blocking them from using the site, than they are to find a way around the firewall so they can send an email to you asking to please remove word <X>
 
sbi
@Shog9 TTBOMK, nobody said that. What I said is that they cannot get a mail passed their country's automatic filters complaining about words that those filters won't let in.
 
@sbi Uh... Why not
 
@Shog9 Because the automatic filters will catch it.
unless you think that Iran censors HTTP but not SMTP traffic
 
11:07 PM
@jalf One guy was convinced we'd blocked his whole country, until he finally found a hotel with wifi that wasn't proxied
 
(it is SMTP, right? before I look like a moron)
 
@DeadMG apparently they also block HTTPS now :)
 
lol
 
sbi
Also, I now said numerous times that Iran is just one extreme example that I picked, to show you another POV. I am not on a mission to make the site more accessible to Iran or any other country or company with silly filters. All I am saying is: this is not a rational issue, but a cultural one.
 
@DeadMG So you get word that the page you're trying to access is blocked for containing "X" and you immediately run face-first into the same block by including it in an email?
 
sbi
11:08 PM
@JeremyBanksʬʬʬ Lemme guess: Your from the US? :)
 
Folks are really good at coming up with euphemisms for things they can't spell out. Like... BrainF_ck
 
@sbi it is rational in that the white male American Company segment pulls in more moolah than most. So it's more important to please them if you want to be profitable
 
@sbi Ok. So what's your solution? Tell the folks trying to use SO to solve their programming questions to suck it because we want to take a principled stance for a language no one uses for serious development?
 
@Shog9 none of us have the hard data that you apparently do on how many sites blocked all of SO because of a single question about brainfuck. That makes it kind of hard to answer :)
 
sbi
@jalf Yep. I know that. But also, those companies Jeff can relate to.
 
11:11 PM
I would naively expect that most companies would just block the offending page if it contained the word "fuck". Not permanently block the entire domain
and thus, the problem would be fairly limited in scope
 
@jalf I don't have any data either. This all went down long, long before I was employed here. Which made me sorta surprised that it's still being brought up.
 
sbi
@Shog9 For heaven's sake! I wasn't after a solution! All I wanted is to point out that your "rationale", isn't rational at all.
Really, if this is Jeff's company, and he wants, in his company, not to hear the word "Brainfuck", because he cringes at the thought of having to explain it to his kids, or his wife, or whatever, then, legally, it is his right to enforce that. But please, please, do not try to come up with some "objective rationale" for this, because there is none. It's purely cultural and irrational. And please understand this, when you force your culture onto others.
 
It also seems a bit self-defeating in that we've said fuck here quite a lot, and if that company sniffs that particular bit of the SO domain, you'll be blocked just as quickly :)
I'm also pretty sure I've seen the word "fuck" quite a few places on SO. So if "we don't want to risk getting blocked" was really the rationale, it should be filtered out automatically. The fact that it isn't kind of undermines the argument a bit
 
@sbi oh, was that really your point? I wasn't getting that at all.
 
@sbi Ok. So what you're saying is, you've already decided what happened, and what the rationale really is, and nothing anyone else says makes any difference. Thanks - if you'd said that from the start, I could've used this time for something productive.
 
11:14 PM
@Shog9 well, some of us use discussions to (1) try to understand new perspectives, and (2) perhaps convince others that they may have overlooked something
I'm sorry if you don't see it like that. Then yes, you could indeed have spent your time more productively
instead of trying to convince us of that your premise had any kind of connection to the conclusion, which it doesn't
 
sbi
@Shog9 I have an opinion, and I have had it for a very long time, and so far, nobody has brought up a counter argument that convinced me. That doesn't mean, however, that nothing could convince me.
 
@jalf And I've done my best to make it clear that this is non-negotiable, not based on the squishy personal preferences of SE staff or some nebulous group of white folks in the US, and certainly not worth attacking a moderator about... But yeah, apparently that was wasted effort as well.
 
@Shog9 It's not (to me, at least) a question of whether it is negotiable, but whether the rationale is what you say/believe it is
 
I'm not expecting you to lift the ban on brainfuck. But claiming that the word is banned to avoid being blocked by company firewalls is absurd when the word "fuck" is still allowed to exist both on SO and in the chat
If that was the true reason, then it would be automatically filtered out, so it never appeared in the first place
 
sbi
11:16 PM
@Shog9 I wasn't attacking anyone for not wanting to change this. I was exasperating about a mod so blatantly failing to see the point, and making such an obviously dumb statement. That is frightening to me. ("And please understand this, when you force your culture onto others.")
 
@sbi It doesn't matter if you're convinced or not. I'm sorry, but in this particular case, your opinion doesn't matter. I'm not here to convince you, or to listen to your arguments on it - I came back to figure out why you were pissed at Robert; apparently, he made the same mistake I did.
 
@Shog9 They're not actually particularly related.
 
@Shog9 of merely pretending to listen?
 
Robert erased a comment with no flags at all for no reason other than because it labelled an action as "idiotic", I believe
 
@jalf Did I give the impression that I was listening?
 
11:18 PM
which is rather different to using "fuck" all around the place
 
sbi
@Shog9 I wasn't believing for a minute that I could change SO's policy on this issue by convincing two moderators here in the chat. I was trying to show you that, what you are so convinced about, isn't true. ("And please understand this, when you force your culture onto others.")
 
Woah... why are all the mods here? I scroll back pages and pages and it's filled with mods... What did I miss?
 
@Shog9 Not often, but once or twice, yes
 
29 mins ago, by Shog9
The deciding argument in that case had nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with the common use of software in large organizations that block pages with certain words on them. Same thing with kicking Gaming as a topic off of Super User. Folks use these sites for work - if too many workplaces block them, we have to respond.
28 mins ago, by Shog9
This particular example is unfortunate, because it's one of those things were it doesn't matter what the MSO consensus is.
26 mins ago, by Shog9
Editing off greetings and signatures? MSO matters. Stuff that gets SO blocked by web filters so they can't use SO to do their jobs? MSO doesn't matter.
 
sbi
41 mins ago, by sbi
@Xeo It was started by the book question being suggested for deletion. Then half a dozen mods descended on us trying to convince us of their POV.
 
11:19 PM
@Shog9 Once again, how come the word "fuck" is still present on SO?
 
If I gave the impression in any part of this conversation that this policy was at all negotiable, subject to change or influence, then I sincerely apologize.
 
If it is really banned in order to avoid the site getting blocked
 
@Shog9 nobody thinks that.
 
Unless, perhaps, @sbi is right, and the actual rationale is different than what you've been told
@Shog9 There is a bit of a difference between "listening" and "promising to change the world
None of us ever expected you, or anyone else, to change that policy
 
sbi
@Shog9 If I gave the impression, that I believed this even for a minute, then I'm sorry for you. I certainly didn't mean to.
 
11:21 PM
@jalf It could be a gigantic conspiracy. It could always be a conspiracy. That's a lousy attitude to approach life with though.
 
@AlfPSteinbach I hadn't seen her before. Nice. learnt something today
 
but I believe @sbi might have had a naive hope of thinking that maybe, if he pointed out to you that 2+2 does not equal 5, you might stop believing it to be true
 
sbi
@Shog9 Which is why I presented a different suggestion.
 
@jalf I think the point Shog9 was making was that it doesn't matter what he believes to be true.
 
sbi
@jalf Couldn't you come up with such witty statements in 40mins? Then i will have new stars to throw at you!
 
11:22 PM
@Shog9 It's not much of a conspiracy. It is common sense. If "fuck" gets the site blocked, and the site admins do not want the site to be blocked, then they filter out the word "fuck". It's the only sane thing to do. The alternative, retroactively removing the word occasionally, while leaving it in other places, gives you the worst of both worlds: you'll still get blocked, but you'll also annoy your users who get censored arbitrarily
thus, the "we don't want to get blocked" explanation does not make sense, and can only be true if the company is led by complete and utter morons, which I doubt
 
@Shog9 no, sbi suggested that it's a very small amount of misinformation (not maliciousness), and I've come to believe him.
 
@jalf Rarely do web filters actually work that way. Well, maybe in Iran/China - but the normal "websense"-type stuff is a bit more ham-fisted than that.
 
@DeadMG That's a weird attitude. Of course it doesn't matter to the company he works for. But I find it hard to imagine it not mattering to the person who holds the belief
 
sbi
@DeadMG But of course it matters! It changes the attitude you approach censoring with, and the way you communicate with the users about that. Which is why I said: "And please understand this, when you force your culture onto others."
 
@Shog9 which is exactly the reason why you'd want to ensure that "fuck" never enters the site in the first place
 
11:24 PM
Pages, and sites, get "categorized" - it's up to the business to decide which "categories" they want to allow through. So if you get a few pages in the wrong category, no biggie. If your whole site ends up in it, that's a problem.
 
a ham-fisted filter would certainly block SO because the site still contains the word "fuck". And so if SO doesn't filter out the word preemptively, they'll get slammed for it by those companies' ham-fisted filters
 
sbi
@MooingDuck I don't think anyone is consciously misinforming anyone about this. I am absolutely convinced that Jeff is absolutely convinced of being right when he censors "brainfuck", and I'm sure he believes in himself being rational about it. That doesn't mean he right about that, though.
 
@sbi That's.... what I intended to say.
 
Having read and talked to Jeff a fair number of times, I have a hard time believing he has some personal objection to "fuck".
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Uh, sorry. I must have misread your argument then.
@Shog9 Other than "I will not allow this on my site, period!", you mean?
 
11:27 PM
@sbi happens. I was saying it was a small miscommunication rather than a large conspiracy.
 
@RobertHarvey WTF? "Being a d*ck" is acceptable language now :_) Great news.
 
@sehe he left like an hour ago
 
@sbi To the extent that that objection is "personal", it somehow fails to extend to his significantly more personal forms of communication (even those that are still public)
 
Oh I see it was mentioned before :_)
 
sbi
> Um, the whole argument about corporate filters goes out the window. He just linked to the wiki article, which unashamedly includes the name. Which means the name is now on the source on this site. So all censoring aside, you can't censor the link. So all this ridiculous effort is exactly moot. – Xaade ↵ Oct 12 '11 at 18:20
@sehe I'm sure Richard would object to you considering "Dick" objectionable.
 
11:29 PM
Again, I cannot say with absolute certainty that there's no duplicity or conspiracy here. I can, however, unequivocally state that it doesn't matter. The decision is made. Those who were against it, those who were for it, those who didn't care... All must accept it. In this particular case, there's absolutely zero value in MSO discussion (again, contrast with taglines, "thank you", etc.)
 
sbi
@Shog9 Of course! Every programmer uses the word "fuck" in North America! That is why we consider the whole affair so ridiculous.
 
Xeo
@Shog9, a slight off-topic question, do you think it would be wasted effort to try and get taglines like "cheers & hth." allowed again?
 
@sbi It is ridiculous. And speaking as a programmer who once worked behind a WebSense filter, there is nothing that is not ridiculous about it.
I hate it, I would love to see it end, but it is outside of my control.
@Xeo Do you have a good argument for them?
 
sbi
@Shog9 And the more sites like SO bow to this hypocrisy, the less likely is that it will disappear in the near future.
 
I'm not so sure about that. Then again it doesn't really matter. I find 'dick' unacceptable in most everyday conversations, for the record.
 
sbi
11:34 PM
@Shog9 What's the good argument for the silly changing of names all over meta?
 
@sbi Usernames you mean?
 
@Shog9 how about this: "the blind ban on them has stopped one of the most knowledgeable users from answering questions"?
 
Xeo
@Shog9 Does "somebody quit answering over it" count as a good argument?
 
sbi
@Shog9 Yes. (And you knew that.)
 
@Xeo Maybe. Probably not. Folks quit for all sorts of inane reasons. I'm still not entirely sure why NB quit.
twice.
@sbi There isn't a particularly good one. That's why they got restricted to once per 30 days, and (finally) a history was added to profiles.
 
Xeo
11:36 PM
@Shog9 I'm not talking about NB, he quit because his attitude changed for the worse on SO IIRC
 
sbi
@Shog9 Because, as he said, SO brings out the worst in him.
 
@Shog9 dunno who NB was, I thought they were referring to Alf
 
sbi
@Shog9 So you accept the fact that not all ticks need a good reason to be allowed?
 
@Shog9 So a blind and pointless rule for its own sake is more important than retaining knowledgeable community members?
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Neil Butterworth (sp?)
 
sbi
11:36 PM
@MooingDuck Neil Butterworth.
 
@Xeo name vaguely rings a bell
 
@MooingDuck doesn't matter, since he's not the person in question ;)
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Meta over Content. Why are you answering questions when you could be voting on Meta? [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
@sbi What?
 
@MooingDuck Wow. Just wow.
 
sbi
@Shog9 I asked whether, based on the fact that meta doesn't need a good reason to change usernames every 30 days, you accept the fact that not every spleen needs to have good, rational arguments to be allowed. Can you please answer that?
 
11:39 PM
well, sleepytime for me
 
@jalf If you want to argue for or against the rule, do so on its merit - if it's truly blind and pointless, you should have no trouble.
 
@Shog9 No trouble, except your word for it that it's probably futile
which, since you spend far more time on meta than I do, is probably accurate
 
sbi
@Shog9 Note the "should". It was exactly @jalf's argument all night that there is trouble in that these rules are, in practice, not negotiable.
 
@sbi except for the one where it was the other way around :)
but yeah, the Meta Police has made a decision, and SO just has to bend and accept it, because the system is designed so that it's impossible for SO to get a say in the matter
 
sbi
@jalf You've lost me.
 
11:41 PM
@sbi Well, I spent an hour or so arguing that the rule of "respect the OP" should not be negotiable ;)
 
sbi
@jalf Ah, that one. :)
 
@sbi Are you asking why anyone is allowed to change their username, ever? Or why certain users on MSO persist in doing so as often as the system allows them to?
 
The way StackExchange works today is that pleasing the rep-whores and power-mongers on Meta is more important than merely allowing the grunts on SO who answer questions, to keep doing so. Yay
 
sbi
@Shog9 Please stop dodging the question. I am asking whether you, in general, accept the idea that certainly spleens should be allowed without having to provide a "good argument" in favor for them.
 
And now, I'm off to bed.
 
11:44 PM
@jalf Removing signatures does not hamper grunts in their answering of questions
 
@sbi Listen - I have three other conversations going on right now. All of this is documented on MSO - if you don't want to look it up, or don't believe it, I'll answer your questions - but be specific. There's a ton of history on this one.
 
@sbi indeed
 
@badp it does if the grunt in question has been using a simple "hope that helps" tagline for the past 15 years because he wants to appear friendly, and having it taken away seems like being punched in the gut
 
If people aren't happy that your posts can be edited by anybody on the internet perhaps Stack Overflow isn't the site for them.
 
It does if those grunts matter
 
sbi
11:45 PM
@Shog9 I have been repeating this question three times! Are you unable to answer a straight-forward yes-or-no question, just because it isn't providing an URL to an example?
 
@MooingDuck a whole carillon of them, actually :)
 
Which, clearly, they don't
 
@jalf Having 20k reputation doesn't put you above rules, either on MSO or on SO itself
 
@badp ...
 
The days when Tomalak and Neill would gang up and teach people proper C++ style and spirit. Love them
 
11:46 PM
Experts on the site can contribute happily this rule notwithstanding, like e.g. Raymond Chen does.
 
that is kind of my point. Why do we need a rule whose only quantifiable effect is to stop someone from posting high-quality answers
@badp They can, but they won't if you kick them in the teeth often enough
and absurd, pointless and contrived rules that annoy them, and provides no benefit, achieves that very well
So it is not a question of being "above the rules", but of "why the rule exists"
 
What's so contrived in "do not writing that signature"?
 
@badp it serves no purpose
 
jalf are you perchance removing stars on messages you disagree about?
 
sbi
@badp What's so contrived in "do not change your username every 30 days"?
 
11:48 PM
@badp no, but thanks for the accusation. That makes me so much more sympathetic towards your point of view
 
@sbi There's nothing so contrived.
 
sbi
@badp So why don't you enforce it?
 
@sbi what should I enforce?
 
sbi
@badp "do not change your username every 30 days"
 
How would I enforce that?
@jalf You were already antagonistic to my point of view since I have more than 1 rep on MSO
so clearly I'm just one of the masterminds behind the show controlling you puppets from above or something
 
sbi
11:50 PM
@badp Set up a rule. That seems to do it in all the other cases.
 
@badp were I? I didn't know how much rep you had on MSO
but with that attitude, you can fuck right off
If you want to fight, then find a seedy bar somewhere
 
oh, okay, now we know it's sbi who's messing with stars
good
 
but do not flag my messages, and do not try to pretend that I'm out to get you
 
hah, so the game of false accusations is even: 1-1
 
Now will you please go back to Meta?
@badp See, that's the difference. To the meta police, this is all a "game". It doesn't matter whether questions on SO get good answers. What matters is that you follow the rules and play the game
 
11:52 PM
Sure. It's not like I'd ever change your mind anyway
 
To the rest of us, the objective is to ensure people get good answers. The rules are there to facilitate that, and if they don't do that, they should be changed
 
sbi
How about you answer my question, @badp? Or if you don't want to discuss, go back to your own playground? Because you have brought a very bad tone into this room. I resent that.
 
What the hell. This thread has been going on for more than 9 hours now.
 
meh, meta ruining our lounge
 
@badp not without actually discussing the issue at hand
 
11:53 PM
I disagree
 
@sbi I'm trying to find your question really
 
trolling does not change my mind, no
 
@TonyTheLion actually, from what I've seen, sbi and jalf are the driving forces behind today
5
 
what do you mean?
 
If the question is "Oh my god a high profile user is leaving because of a rule. Should we rethink the rule?" the answer is probably "no."
 
11:53 PM
@MooingDuck we're not keeping anyone here
@badp That wasn't his question, that was mine. And it was only half the question
 
sbi
Could one of the attending moderators please kick out the idiot that keeps flagging messages he doesn't want? Thank you. I think we hadn't had so many flags here in months.
 
@badp SO wouldn't be very useful without these kind of users to answer questions.
 
the full question was "a high quality user has stopped contributing because of a rule. The rule serves no real purpose. Should we rethink the rule?"
 
@kbok Somehow most users cope just fine.
 
And the answer should always, regardless of the question, be "whichever best ensures high quality answers on SO
 
11:55 PM
STOP FLAGGING AND GO AWAY
6
 
sbi
@badp If you don't know how to find your way around here, might I point you to the newbie hints, linked from the right-hand panel? They explain this and other useful things about this room.
 
@sbi I'm sorry, but telling people to fuck off is generally not acceptable anywhere in the SE network and I'll continue flagging posts like that.
 
@badp Because you aren't screaming for crime on MSO doesn't mean that you aren't annoyed by all this superflous governance.
 
Xeo
Whoever is flagging in here, and I'm not looking at a certain someone, should know that it's futile. The flags will get invalidated in mere seconds by the regulars.
 
@sbi You can't kick out someone who isn't in.
 
11:55 PM
@jalf Sure. So the question is "what would the remaining experts like to see? What is it that makes the remaining experts stick to SO?" The answer is signal to noise. Signatures reduce signal to noise. "Hope this helps" goes without saying.
 
@Fabian go flag elsewhere.
 
@AnnaLear @GraceNote, @Shog9, @RobertHarvey and whoever else I forgot, could someone put an end to this absurd flagging spree, and perhaps carry the trolls away?
 
sbi
@Fabian It's pretty much standard in this room. If you don't like it, there's tons of other rooms. You don't need to troll here.
 
@badp excuse me, but speaking of signal to noise, what signal have you provided? And how much noise?
 
@TonyTheLion Hah, that message tried to escape :)
 
11:56 PM
Because alf's SNR is pretty damn good
 
@jalf ad-hominem
 
@kbok sorry, my mistake
 
I suck at pointing out kind of fallacies but this one was so easy
 
and "hth" is a pretty low noise ratio when it consistently follows a high-quality answer
@badp no...
ad hominem means attacking the person. I am questioning your qualifications in judging signal/noise on SO
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Well, @Fabian is in here, and he just admitted to doing this mindless flagging. So will you please kick him out?
 
11:57 PM
Your retort is about me, not the point. You're attacking my STN ratio
not the focus on STN
 
trolls can't judge, they just make noise
someone flagged the flaggers, wut?
 
@badp I am questioning whether your content should be allowed to stay, if signal-to-noise ratio is so essential. Is your ratio better than @AlfPSteinbach's answers including the "hth" suffix?
 
@sbi My flagging was anything but mindless, I flagged a post that insulted another user, which is behaviour that is not acceptable anywhere in chat.
 
@jalf If the answers are high quality, as I'm fairly certain they are, I assume somebody will simply go in and edit the text out themselves.
 
sbi
2 mins ago, by sbi
@Fabian It's pretty much standard in this room. If you don't like it, there's tons of other rooms. You don't need to troll here.
 
11:59 PM
@jalf and that's again ad-hominem, plus apples-to-orange, since this isn't SO but chat
 
@badp Well, "somebody" did not. Instead, he was told not to end his posts with "hth", because it was a signature and those were not allowed
So your assumption is wrong
 
sbi
@Fabian Now please go and play eslewhere.
 
@badp you know, I've got an easier way to settle the argument
It's called an ignore list
 
Win :)
 
Oh so your argument is "you're wrong gtfo"
I'm going to let you win that
 
11:59 PM
Now please, go back to meta
 
enjoy your victory
 

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