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3:00 PM
Shameless plug: stackoverflow.com/questions/6399615/… (It's CW anyway, so I won't get rep)
 
@sbi Something like Address a as a member. Would you have the modifier set the member using an Address object or have it take each individual component making up the member?
 
@sbi yeah
no response yet
 
lol
 
3:03 PM
@JadziaMD That's not helping. What's a "modifier"?
 
sbi
@jalf Too bad. Really, besides trying to make a tiny splash, what do you gain out of this?
 
user406009
After reading that article, I am starting to think C++ is one of the most misunderstood languages. People see the new and delete keywords and think, "Mhh, the word heap is cool, I should use it everywhere", ignoring the fact that in modern day C++ smart pointers are used extensively, and the only delete is in the implementation of some sort of smart resources handler.
 
sbi
@JadziaMD Actually, I would question setters in itself. See this wonderful article.
 
@sbi pretty much what I said. first, it might make more of a splash than people complaining without being willing to take the consequence, and secondly, I meant it when I wrote that all the rep and badges just made me feel like I was too mixed up in the twisted hierarchy of SE, which i don't want
Oh, and third, I'm curious to see what they'll say :)
 
@DeadMG: Are you writing your WideC compiler on top of Clang or do you do the source->LLVM lowering yourself?
 
3:07 PM
I don't think past tense is the correct tense there.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you are, yet again, correct
 
I, of course, do source->LLVM myself
 
sbi
@jalf They'll say nothing. Jeff will shrug and get on.
FWIW, this is what he once wrote to me as an answer to an elaborate critique I spend days on polishing:
> This is ancient history. We've moved on. I suggest you do so as well.
And I doubt the C++ tag is of much importance to him.
 
@sbi maybe. It doesn't bother me too much either way.
 
sbi
3:14 PM
Nov 16 '10 at 18:51, by Jeff Atwood
ok, I suck at C++ so I will leave now
 
although I've taken a break from working on WideC
 
@sbi thanks for the link to the paper. Exactly what I've been wrestling with.
 
@DeadMG Don't you give up a lot of already-invented stuff that way?
 
That's how he rolls.
Like a baus.
 
uuuh
Idon't know of anyone else who has written a converter between WideC source and LLVM
 
3:17 PM
@DeadMG Oh, whatcha doin' now?
University stuffs?
 
sbi
Slacking, I guess.
 
@DeadMG but you could use Clang's AST instead, I'm guessing lots of constructs can be mapped. <-- guessing
 
I seriously doubt that
and even if it did, I'd have to live with Clang's semantic interpretation of that AST
and there are few places where we agree
 
true. So how come you were complaining about the lack of a linker and windows features?
 
uh, because LLVM doesn't come with a linker and hardly works on Windows?
 
3:20 PM
what do you mean with "hardly works on windows"?
 
well, for example, LLVM's own site says that about half their tests fail on Windows
 
that's weird, because it's untrue
All LLVM tests pass for me
(at least some time ago)
 
and that crappy make and configure bullshit
and "Let's just devolve to GCC for all our linking needs"
 
Q: What's wrong with make and configure? A: It's the wrong order.
 
A: everything
 
3:23 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes lol
@DeadMG I'm guessing your alternative is g++ *.cpp -I../include
 
what do you mean?
 
A: It's the wrong order Q: What's wrong with make and configure?
3
 
You need a build system.
 
rather like top posting
 
3:25 PM
no, I don't need a build system, at all
I build on one platform to target one platform
and I don't need any dependency management or anything like that
 
you still have some build system though
even if it's a VS project
or a shell script
 
It's called MSBuild.
 
true
 
it's still a crude build system
 
MSBuild is an atrocity
 
3:25 PM
but I don't have to actually deal with it
 
hehe
 
whereas make and configure makes me arse around with it for fucking decades before it'll do anything of use
 
What?
$ ./configure && make && sudo make install
 
I thought LLVM/Clangs configure/make was pretty simple at a "I'll add a file here" level
 
autotools is so nice when you understand its eccentricities
 
3:27 PM
firstly, that's completely not what I remember
 
autotools is nice when used correctly, which is actually pretty much never
 
if it's that simple, then why the fuck do I have to do it myself?
 
@DeadMG Well, I did it lots of times before. That's how it usually goes.
 
and secondly, that's not very helpful because they don't tell you that's what to do at all, and I have to come here begging for some other unlucky sod to tell me what to do
so if some thing required some other cockery, I'd have no way to actually do it myself
 
I think I hit one of his buttons
 
3:29 PM
Logic test failed, CG test failed, one course failed completely. It's going downhill. I'm really doubting my ability to finish that stupid degree.
 
@DeadMG Oh, well, if the docs suck I guess you have a right to complain about it.
 
@CatPlusPlus Welcome to the crowd
 
@CatPlusPlus: It's all your fault, you bloody idiot. I hate you.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Requiring docs is a fail in this case.
 
You wanted a dialog where you can repeatedly click "Next"?
 
3:30 PM
that would be better
 
This is a tool for Programmersâ„¢. We don't need no stinkin' dialogues.
 
autotools is not a tool, it's a tools
 
it's a tool for wasting our time horsing around with shit that we don't need
 
For the end user, it's not that complicated.
 
The worst part is that now I have to repeat that course next year.
 
3:31 PM
It's a mess for the guy writing the scripts, but well...
 
if you need it, you're doing it wrong
 
Autotools is not a tool, it's an unholy mess.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes if it works, and the developer using it thought about the right cross-compiler combo's
 
gnu.org/s/hello/manual/autoconf - quite good except for sopa
 
Autotools is a headache.
 
3:33 PM
as is autobook
 
and petty much everything originating from the Unix world
 
Autotools is made of layers of pain.
 
Glued with tears and blood.
 
It's funny cause it's true.
 
3:34 PM
Er, do you guys get invalid certificate warnings on gnu.org?
 
We use autotools at work.
 
wqell
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Yep.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah. It's not www.gnu.org but savannah.gnu.org or something
 
the thing is
if I were to keep working on WideC, I'd have to do it in C++ :(
 
3:35 PM
@DeadMG I've been thinking about the same kind of dilemma, there's no way to develop a new language without being proficient and working in another
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It's probably because they have their own root certificate instead of paying for a trusted one.
 
You actually don't have to use C++ to implement it, y'know.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I did
 
Oh wait, deja vu.
 
@CatPlusPlus he could use Java
 
3:35 PM
@rubenvb There is! You design it and pay some fools to implement it.
You need to think out of the box.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes or write your own OS! With a kernel API in WideC!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Like C++! Only they don't pay, but charge those fools.
 
You can define a language in XML and then write the compiler as an XSLT doc :D
 
That makes them doublefools, I guess.
 
3:37 PM
@CatPlusPlus Yes, I do
else I'd use C#
 
@CatPlusPlus IEEE-745 double fool?
 
And that's bad?
 
@DeadMG what's the compelling reason?
 
@awoodland Go away, demon.
 
C# can't support compiling to anything except CLI
if I want to compile to native code, I need to use LLVM, which does not have C# bindings
 
3:38 PM
@DeadMG That's... the dumbest thing I've heard all hour.
 
and on top of that, if I want to offer the C++ interface that I need to offer, I need to use Clang, which as far as I know also does not offer C# bindings
 
so C# is another one of those languages that is tightly tied to its library?
@DeadMG oh, you could use OCaml
 
from C++ to "Worse than C++"?
at least I'm proficient in C++
 
@rubenvb What's with this "tied to library" thing? What's the problem?
 
C# is boring, though.
 
3:40 PM
proficiency is overrated. Just check the Java room.
 
it has partial types, which are nice
 
@RMartinhoFernandes You can't reinvent all the wheels, tragedy!
 
There's always going to be stuff that you can't reinvent.
 
and I expect that it's parser generator libraries don't exclude using all useful types
 
Parsec is better, anyway.
 
3:41 PM
ANTLR generates neat C#. I have experience with it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes well, I discovered lots of C++ language features need some form of library support, which in my eyes shouldn't be necessary
 
ANTLR also generates C that tries to be object-oriented.
 
@rubenvb What is the problem?
 
Hello everybody!
 
It's not very pretty.
 
3:41 PM
hi
 
@CatPlusPlus Sorry, not meant for you :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes ANTLR-generated C code?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I can't write a C++ program without linking to the C++ standard library and pulling in all cruft I'm not using. There's no way to provide a full-blown alternative.
 
@CatPlusPlus My reply. Dammit.
 
I didn't even notice.
 
3:42 PM
@rubenvb So, it's exactly what the Cat said. You can't reinvent all the wheels.
 
aaargh I have so many examinations coming up
what a waste of my time!
fuck you university, I fucking hate your fucking guts
 
I'm almost through. Just counting failures now.
I'm also oddly calm.
@rubenvb Why would you want to provide a full-blown alternative?
What's the point?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes well, some wheels have too many spokes, others too little. Some wheels in the C++ standard library are square
 
"OOoh, I can't replace initializer_list with my own initializer_list that looks exactly the same"?
 
@CatPlusPlus about that
 
3:44 PM
That's just silly waste of energy.
 
Initializer list is a pair of pointers. Or a pointer + size. WTF are you gonna reinvent?
 
I believe Microsoft allows you to implement drivers in C++ using a subset of the language.
 
You can develop user-mode drivers in full C++.
 
Why did they not introduce class A{ A({int x}) : m_a(x){} A(int x) : m_a(x){} int m_a; };
or something like that. No extra template class needed, full-blown initializer lists possible
 
And how would that be any different?
 
3:47 PM
And what is {int x}?
 
Then you'd complain it's a syntax feature and not a type.
 
27
Q: Why are drivers and firmwares almost always written in C or ASM and not C++?

LouiseI am just curious why drivers and firmwares almost always are written in C or Assembly, and not C++? I have heard that there is a technical reason for this. Does anyone know this? Lots of love, Louise

2
 
Is {int x} Something that gets replaced by std::initializer_list<int> x?
 
Xeo
> Lots of love
 
That sounds silly to me.
 
Xeo
3:47 PM
tha fuck?
 
@CatPlusPlus wrong: initializer_lists are a language feature by definition. See array initialization
 
@StackedCrooked "cruft" Argh.
 
@rubenvb Array initialization doesn't use initializer_lists.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I see you're trying to be funny. No, the compiler could do with it whatever it wants.
@RMartinhoFernandes same syntax, same result, same widening errors
 
It's easy to make vague statements like "C++ has cruft" without going into detail.
 
3:48 PM
@rubenvb Whatever. I don't really care. I prefer to have as many things in the language as possible.
Batteries included is good.
 
@rubenvb And what's your point? Arrays are not tied to the library.
 
Xeo
@rubenvb so, how would you access the list size or begin, end, whatever without a dedicated class?
 
@Xeo the point is that you don't have to
 
Xeo
What would {int x} even represent? A new builtin type?
 
@Xeo More syntax!
 
3:49 PM
@Xeo Compiler magic! At least it's not a library feature.
 
@Xeo no, the prototype/declaration/definition of the initializer_list constructor
 
The question is, what is a mahna mahna the advantage?
What do you gain?
 
What is a mahna mahna?
 
Who cares?
 
3:51 PM
Oh, Muppets again.
 
Well, pretty much everything else is usable without the library. C++ gives a lot of power to the implementation/library, not so much to the user of the language
but I'm rambling and you don't care
 
I don't see the difference between this {int x} thing and this_is_an_initializer_list_of<int> x or :{int x}; or whatever.
 
Yes, this is C++'s problem. It's not powerful enough.
 
@rubenvb It gives the same power to both!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I can't define new integer types I can overload on. I believe it is unambiguously possible to implement
 
3:54 PM
@rubenvb int is not part of the library!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes the #include <initialize_list> at the top
 
It's part of the language.
 
@CatPlusPlus It's like saying "A nuke is not powerful enough"
 
@rubenvb So? The big difference is some aesthetic convenience?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes read my previous comment: I also mentioned implementation.
@RMartinhoFernandes simplicity
and int is a ridiculous useless type anyways
 
3:55 PM
Right, getting rid of one header will sure make everything simpler.
 
@rubenvb Oh, sure, nobody uses int.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I didn't say that.
 
Kids use long these days.
 
@rubenvb You know what else you can't change? How overflows work.
 
At least the cool ones.
 
3:55 PM
@rubenvb You said it was useless.
 
I don't really get this discussion.
 
And that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with ties to the library.
 
@StackedCrooked We're making fun.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes true
@CatPlusPlus of me. I get it.
 
:P
Anyway, I'm hungry.
 
3:57 PM
I like the notion of "making fun", like we could have a machine that just made fun all day
 
@EtiennedeMartel Each project I know uses their own typedef's for integer types, or switches to stdint.h types
 
@rubenvb Yeah, but it still typedefs to int at one point. The type itself is not useless.
 
Only projects that care about fixed width sizes.
Most don't .
 
Most projects I know don't need exact integer sizes.
See, we both think that, therefore it's true.
 
@EtiennedeMartel not on eg MSVC.
 
3:58 PM
@CatPlusPlus and I am sure that those that do, don't really
 
Well, you need them for binary I/O. Not that it makes it any less painful.
 
@CatPlusPlus you'd have char or byte or whatever
 

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