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8:00 PM
@not-rightfold Sue me
 
@sehe Well, it is worth the experience to setup at home.
 
user1804599
@sehe effort
 
@not-rightfold Oh man. Learn about scaling data first. That. Doesn't. Scale.
 
user1804599
No, I’ll use ext4.
 
user1804599
And two SSDs.
 
8:01 PM
You should totally try out ReFS. [/sarcasm]
 
@Nican It's le simple. Instead, just use loop-backed sparse files on tmpfs to fool around.
 
user1804599
I need a server farm so I can implement a distributed hash table.
 
@Nican I hear Reiser has been improved!
@not-rightfold My root is on ext4 these days. I had btrfs last time around but it was excruciatingly slow for apt-get and similar. On SSD. Mind you
 
user1804599
lol apt-get.
 
2 mins ago, by sehe
@not-rightfold Sue me
 
8:02 PM
I am still waiting for Win8.1 to be officially released to try it out, because I fucking tired of NTFS. (See: plus.google.com/106882022975036436380/posts/HcrDqwPo1Ea )
 
user1804599
@sehe At least upgrade. Even if it’s to Windows Vista.
 
@Nican Who isn't. NTFS is godforsaken slow. I don't know what keeps it busy
@not-rightfold lol
 
@Nican: How does Windows 8.1 save you from NTFS?
Also, what's wrong with that? It seems like a decent FS.
 
Home editions will support it.
 
user1804599
@wilx By being so terrible that you want to switch to Gentoo.
 
8:04 PM
@not-rightfold: Evidence?
 
user1804599
Basic HTML Gmail view is so much better.
 
@Nican Damn. Almost made me join G+ just to +1 that. Alas. I'll have to hijack and retweet though
> "seems"
 
user1804599
Fuck slow and unresponsive default view.
 
@wilx The link ^^^^
 
user1804599
@Nican Windows file copier was written in Java.
 
8:05 PM
Apr 19 at 8:03, by sehe
However, a single archive measures 7.7s to extract on ext4, which is a far cry from 7 minutes on Win7 and hefty hardware (i7,SSD) /cc @jalf
 
user1804599
They start a new JVM for every ten bytes.
 
Interesting. More caching on Linux?
 
Ah. That explains. I always assumed they check the "Genuine Windows Validation" every second
@wilx That too, but it does little, since obviously the caches were cold
 
user1804599
@sehe Fuck proprietary software.
 
Cold write cache? :)
 
8:07 PM
@all any in here familiar with objective c++ ?
 
user1804599
@DavidYangLiu I am.
 
user1804599
And no, I’m not interested in your question.
 
user1804599
Use Nu instead of Objective-C++.
 
Ell
@not-rightfold can I do lounge<chat> with visual studio 2012?
 
8:08 PM
@not-rightfold k thnx ne ways
 
@sehe Sadly, I find that BtrFS development is slow. They have planned a lot of features.
 
@wilx Why joke?
 
user1804599
@Ell Do I know ask @Cat.
 
@DavidYangLiu I think your spellchecker is compromised. Run a system scan or reinstall
 
user1804599
The program is perfect, as there is no described expected behaviour. Case closed. — sehe 2 hours ago
 
user1804599
8:09 PM
Haha a gem.
 
@Nican And they forgot to deliver on safety first
@not-rightfold Thank you kind sir
 
user1804599
A colleague was wondering why the skull was made of such thin bones. “It should be made of titanium; your brain is in it.”
 
partly because the skull is only half the protection for the brain; cerebral fluid performs another major role
and partly because in our natural environment, we did not have ready access to titanium and the means to bend it to our wills
 
> evo·lu·tion, a.k.a. unintelligent design, Monte-Carlo design, embarrassingly parallel benchmarking (under: unethical applications)
 
Makes me wonder, whatever goes on in the SO's serverfault's chat rooms.
 
8:12 PM
also because the skull has other requirements than just being tough, like growing
 
@DeadMG unnecessary. just assemble after birth: IKEA knows
 
user1804599
 
@not-rightfold And hey, who's complaining. It's only a brain. Completely dispensible
 
@sehe You'd probably crush the brain with the contractions. Not to mention the growth from, say, 0-18.
 
user1804599
@sehe Hey, you’ll die anyway.
 
8:13 PM
@DeadMG sssssh
@not-rightfold Prezoisly
 
Ell
how about just replace the brain with a computer :3
 
user1804599
VIER NUL VIER
 
@Ell It is a computer.
 
Ell
@DeadMG Well you do weekly updates until you get to a stable revision, right?
Live on the cutting edge.
 
8:14 PM
Okay
 
Ell
@DeadMG the brain?
 
yes.
 
user1804599
It is a thing that can compute.
 
user1804599
:V
 
Attention whores
 
8:14 PM
that's why a neural net is called that- because it mimics the structure of the neurons in our brains.
the brain is just a vastly more efficient and more complex hardware implementation.
 
God damn cockroaches
Where the hell are they coming from, there are like no holes in here ;_;
 
user1804599
@DeadMG It’s full of bugs!
 
Ell
@DeadMG I meant a more rugged computer
 
you know
 
user1804599
SHE’LL BE RIGHT HERE IN MY ARMS
 
Ell
8:15 PM
and I still don't think brain is a computer
 
with all the quantum biology going on these days
 
Ell
it doesn't carry out instructions like a computer does
 
I wonder if we will discover that the brain is a quantum computer
@Ell Sure it does. You just didn't put them there manually. They're encoded into the DNA.
 
user1804599
Hey puppy.
 
@Ell Don't worry. Assimilation will happen
 
user1804599
8:16 PM
How does consciousness work.
 
user1804599
I’m a materialist and I don’t understand it.
 
@not-rightfold It's probably an artifact of the complexity of the neural nets that make up our brain.
 
Ell
@DeadMG It's constantly doing one thing, it doesn't take steps like what I would call a computer does
 
@not-rightfold Read a good book. I suggest "Strange Loop"
 
similar to how our complex life is an artifact of the long period from it's conception, and is constructed from immensely simple things, like amino acids.
@Ell Sure it does. You just can't perceive them.
 
8:17 PM
First there's bugs in my program, and now there are bugs in my room
I'm cursed ;_;
Forgive me for my sins, I used new one time this month
 
Ell
I'm still not convinced. We need a definition for computer first anyway
 
when I type, first your brain takes the step of converting the visual stimuli into an understanding of the characters, and then it assemblers those characters into words, and then constructs the sentence from them, and then analyzes it for the abstract meaning.
 
user1804599
Consciousness makes no sense.
 
it's just unconscious.
@not-rightfold On the contrary, it makes perfect sense.
 
user1804599
Not to me.
 
8:19 PM
consider sleep as garbage collection.
 
user1804599
I mean
 
Ell
There is no clock in the brain, so how can it carry out instructions in stpes
 
@Ell Firstly, there totally is a clock in the brain.
 
Ell
I don't understand consciousness either. I mean, why can I see?
 
and secondly, never heard of a brainwave?
 
user1804599
8:19 PM
how is it possible that a human can be consciously aware of things.
 
@Ell Because the ancestors that couldn't see were eaten by a lion that they couldn't see coming.
 
fuck humans.
 
Ell
@DeadMG But i mean, what is looking at what I see?
What is the vision projected on to?
 
@Ell Nothing.
if you use software to do OCR, the image is not projected on to anything.
 
Stop the philocrummy!
 
user1804599
8:20 PM
Can every particle be conscious?
 
Ell
@DeadMG exactly :3
 
@not-rightfold Conscious and unconscious is no different to hardware and software implementations. The software is massively slower, but infinitely more adaptable.
 
user1804599
You don’t understand what I mean.
 
hence, functions that we need to do very rapidly and not change very much go in the unconscious, such as vision.
 
Ell
Why can I perceive things? gah
 
8:22 PM
@not-rightfold I doubt it- or at the very least, our current science does not have any mechanism by which that could occur.
 
user1804599
I mean, how is it possible, from a materialistic POV, that ordinary things such as humans can think?
 
God designed humans terribly
 
Ell
What is perceiving them? The brain?
 
seriously.. we either talk about why new is bad or why vaginas are awesome, this philosophy bullshit doesn't belong in Lounge<C++>.
 
And he used a terrible Garbage collecting language too~
 
8:22 PM
@not-rightfold who says we can?
 
@not-rightfold The simple answer is, because there is a chemical implementation of a computer in our heads.
 
Ell
@refp Not all vaginas are awesome
 
@Ell Yes.
 
user1804599
@DeadMG Still not making sense.
 
user1804599
@Ell inb4 bluewaffle
 
8:23 PM
@not-rightfold Why not?
 
Ell
@DeadMG but why does consciousness happen as a side effect
 
we know that you can build a computer from DNA.
 
Ell
why can I see this thing. Why do I feel like I'm making choices out of nowhere
 
user1804599
@DeadMG Why would a chemical reaction lead to consciousness?
 
@Ell Because some tasks are better done consciously, and some are better done unconsciously.
 
8:23 PM
 
user1804599
Are you saying we could make any object think?
 
^ quite cool. But a lot of "bigger is better" and "more is better" IMO
 
for exactly the same reasons that some tasks are done in hardware, and others in software.
 
Ell
@DeadMG I understand that
But what experiences consciousness?
 
@not-rightfold Any object? No. Some objects? Yes. Our computers can already think.
 
8:24 PM
@Ell the not-so-awesome vaginas don't belong in the vagina category, as an example your mother's "vagina" is better described as a black hole.
 
Ell
@refp wtf, man :L
 
@Ell The brain.
 
user1804599
Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. It has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind. Despite the difficulty in definition, many philosophers believe that there is a broadly shared underlying intuition about what consciousness is. As Max Velmans and Susan Schneider wrote in The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness: "Anything that we are aware of at a given moment forms part of our cons...
 
@Ell just trying to chane the subject.
 
in fact
we know that a part of the brain creates the experience of ourselves, because when it's damaged, people can't identify themselves anymore.
 
Ell
8:25 PM
@DeadMG I just don't understand why there is this concept of ourself
 
user1804599
> The primary focus is on understanding what it means biologically and psychologically for information to be present in consciousness—that is, on determining the neural and psychological correlates of consciousness.
 
@refp thank you so much. now, kindly find yourself replonked for another 2 years. Stop chaning the subject if that's what it means
 
user1804599
This is what I mean.
 
@Ell It's a social adaptation.
 
@sehe replonked?
I have no idea what that means.
 
Ell
8:25 PM
and why does we feel seperation between our body and our mind
@DeadMG I understand the biological reason of it having evolved
 
@Ell Then you're done.
 
Ell
I just can't understand what feels the consciousness
 
@Ell The consciousness does.
 
Ell
I think it's impossible to explain
 
let me ask you something
 
Ell
8:26 PM
no amount of facts or fiction can describe the answer to my question
 
if you didn't experience consciousness, how could you consciously plan to meet your needs for food, sex, and such things?
how could you possibly begin to understand the needs of other consciousnesses, how they might affect you, and how to use them to get the best result for yourself?
 
user1804599
> A science of consciousness must explain the exact relationship between subjective mental states and brain states, the nature of the relationship between the conscious mind and the electro-chemical interactions in the body.
 
Ell
I need to escape the realm of consciousness onto a higher plain
 
you can always escape to sleep if you want.
 
what is replonked? somebody please tell me!
 
8:29 PM
but that is little more than the brain's unconscious consuming resources to perform maintenance
rather than any profound change in state
 
@sehe explain yourself.
 
in any case
it is of little consequence, since there is no means to escape the confines of the brain and survive the process, and it does not appear that there will be any for the foreseeable future
 
goddam scala repl, why u take so long to run?
 
so
very last breaking bad this night.
 
@DeadMG can't wait
 
8:33 PM
@Ell I see my attempt of subject change didn't work..
 
@A.H. I've gotta admit
 
@Ell may I ask for a nick change, just to make the evening a little bit more ordinary?
 
despite everything, I'm still rooting for Walter White.
I want his kids to get that money.
 
hehe yeah I am still on his side too, feels terrible though
 
and I want Jack to get what's coming to him
 
8:35 PM
I am really sad he is being blamed for hank
 
I was fine with Jack, until he refused to obey Walter's orders not to come, and took all his money and enslaved Jesse and killed Hank and such.
 
I think I like philocrummy better
 
@DeadMG and Todd , that motherfucker is sick
 
Did you notice that the encryption and decryption methods are identical? How do you expect them to do opposite things? — Hot Licks 2 hours ago
 
Ell
@refp haha you may not :P
 
8:42 PM
@Ell damn it.. not my evening it seems
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
user1804599
I’ll get my xkcd T-shirt soon.
 
@DarioOO Now, kind suggestion: you could have wasted at least ~20 minutes of your helper's time less if you had the question properly. If you like to receive answers, you'll want to improve your question before posting, next time. Thank you. — sehe 27 secs ago
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
def does_it_halt(program):
    while True:
        pass
 
Ell
8:48 PM
doesithalt= true :P
 
ought to have made that yield
@Ell constexpr
> We may continue to think that programming is not essentially difficult, that it can be done by accurate morons, provided you have enough of them, but then we continue to fool ourselves and no one can do so for a long time unpunished EdsgD
 
Ell
I can't do programming :P
Does that make me not a moron because I can't do it?
 
user1804599
No.
 
user1804599
You’re still a fucking moron.
 
user1804599
:3
 
Ell
8:56 PM
xD I think that too :P
But ignorance is bliss!
 
There's no contradiction. But.
 
user1804599
A friend said he proved that n * sqrt(31) is never rational for any integer n.
 
user1804599
I said n = 0 and now I nuked his day.
 
well, that wasn't hard, right. It could even be complex!
> N3752 - Index Based Ranges
> Only paper from the Ranges subgroup. The goal of this paper is to enable index based ranges, while often "traditional" ranges offer begin/end pairs of iterators, index based access to elements can prevent the use of fat iterators, and hence improve speed. Further the authors conclude that this proposal also could include the support for generator_ranges.
Am I reading this right? Are back to discussing whether the index based loop is faster than the iterator one? I think by now we subscribed to "the compiler inlines" and "it depends"
 
No.
 
9:10 PM
Or maybe the summary is just odd. I mean, indices have the 'benefit' of invalidating under different circumstances. (Allthough under many of those c*stances they would point to different elements anyway)
 
"fat" iterators is about the exponential size increase of composing iterators.
 
Oh aha. But index based ranges will hardly make up for that, because they cannot compound behaviour, methinks. Or is it really about index-bases iterators?
 
dunno
I'll tell you after I've read the paper
 
Yeah. I really should too. Sorry for being lazy
 
it's not that great
 
9:12 PM
I've been ill for a few days, I though you might have discussed it at length :)
Mmm. Wait. There's a proposal to 'legalize' memcpy(&float_x, &uint32_t_y, sizeof(float_x)). Wasn't memcpy already the one blessed way. Or even then, only via a char[] buffer?
 
Ell
I find it difficult to understand how there are families I know which dont have any disposable income at all
But there are. I think it so strange how some can't afford to spare £50
 
@sehe isn't that already how it works ?
 
@A.H. cough. that's precisely the point of the proposal
 
so the intent is that the compiler considers that a constructor ?
 
@Ell I always get the urge to hand them money. But I know it doesn't work like that (it won't be accepted and frequently not be considered too sympathetic either). I grew up in a home like that.
Give money to a local church, is the best thing I know that works. They often have dedicated 'collections'
(so you don't pay for the institution. By the way, just pick a church without that overhead anyways. You'll know if it's still gathering in a school hall or a gymnastics hall)
@A.H. Nope. That the compiler considers it initialization. The way I read it. Basically, yes
 
9:27 PM
So, I just spent that last 24 hours tracking down why some code I wrote last week wasn't working. Turns out that it was caused by a bug in code that's almost 3 years old. Fuck...
And I never hit that buggy scenario until now...
 
Yay! Congratulations, by the way.
@Mysticial Probably due to processor characteristics?
 
@sehe Not quite. Turns out that it needed a combination of two things.
1. The input had to be degenerate.
2. It had to be 32-bit.
 
Ah. Those are the best. Creepers that lurk in plain daylight smiling at you saying "I'm here, but you can't see me"
@Mysticial signed unsigned conversion?
 
I noticed that compiling for 64-bit worked fine.
But on 32-bit, it gave undetected wrong errors with weird circumstances.
@sehe Not really.
 
People are apparently worried that the govt will run out of money October 1. They ran out of money $17 trillion ago.
 
9:30 PM
I had an optimization where I would pair up iterations into groups of two.
And I had special case to handle odd lengths.
But I never considered the case where L = 1. Both degenerate, and odd.
On x64, L is always a multiple of 2.
So it never hit the bug.
 
@Mysticial Oh. No static analysis going to help you there. Unit tests, maybe. But those didn't exist in 2009 (just assume)
 
But on x86, L can be 1.
 
Again, gratz! Those were 24 hours well-spent. (Honestly).
 
I do most of my tests on x64. So that made it a lot harder to catch it.
 
I really need to be going to bed now, since I'm still recovering.
 
9:32 PM
Furthermore, the use-cases in the past had an exponentially low-chance of hitting the L = 1 case with the right input.
@sehe night
 
user1804599
Fools.
 
@Mysticial So how did it manifest? Corruption or splendid explosions?
 
user1804599
Why do you talk so much.
 
But yeah... At least I found it.
@sehe Corruption. Or rather, wrong answers that went undetected.
 
user1804599
The Funeral of Hearts is such a nice song.
 
9:33 PM
@not-rightfold Look who's talking
On a HIM binge are we?
 
user1804599
HIM OMG
 
So this is the first time I put profanity in the comments.
The worst part about it was that because the bug showed up in new code, I assumed it was because the new code was broken.
It was only when I did a side-by-side result diff against a correct result and lots of instrumentation did I realize that the bug might actually be in old (and mature) code that had survived so long without any issues.
 
user1804599
@sehe Als Rutte en Samsom aan de macht blijven wel ja.
 
user1804599
Bezuinigen door in Afrika en Europa te investeren.
 
user1804599
:D
 
user1804599
9:46 PM
0
Q: How to add a cookie to my browser?

DomecraftI currently am in the programming challenge Picoctf. On one of the challenges, I have to access a website however the site says I am not authorized to view the page. Naturally, I looked through the source code and found: DEBUG: Expected Cookie: "authorization=administrator" Then it shows the a...

 
user1804599
lolwut
 
Ell
Damn I'm out of moolah
 
user1804599
Is The Pragmatic Programmer: From Journeyman to Master a good book?
 
Ell
10:11 PM
Idk
 
@KonradRudolph: Ping me when you're around.
 
Ell
Anybody want to donate to ells October alcohol fund charity?
 
10:39 PM
 
Hmm, so even XKCD is making fun of functional programming now.
 
11:12 PM
Apparently using the address of a temporary is not a good idea.
 
lol
 
It like... half worked.
 
Anybody have any rough estimate for how long it takes to malloc/free 10 megabytes of ram? When being used in a queue of 10 megabyte elements
 
< 1s ?
That's about 2.5 million int with 4 bytes right?
 
@Rapptz I guess if its virtual, oh well I want to know on the order of 10 miliseconds. If its like 5 ms then I am good. I'm going to cook up some test script
 
11:24 PM
@Mikhail 10mb is probably large enough to force an OS zeroing.
So at minimum it's 10mb divided by your memory bandwidth.
 
Pool it and queue it back so that you don't have to malloc/free it more than the once at app startup?
 
@Mysticial I am having some trouble coming with a bandwidth number for my DDR3 PC3-10700 @667 MHZ(?) I can't figure out if I need to factor the 667MHZ into the eqaution...
 
You have to measure it. Because it depends heavily on the rest of the system. For example Sandy Bridge manages to get out twice the bandwidth than Nehalem from only two channels of the same memory.
 
11:47 PM
@Mysticial o.O Damn really?
 
@Mysticial When I build under debug its about 4ms and I get a timing of 0 ms in release, although I suspect its because the compiler is clever... Any opinions on the code would be appreciated pastebin.com/dFEudxPE
 
@Borgleader yep. I have identical spec memory in my two Core i7 machines. My Nehalem with triple channel 1333 gets just under 10 GB/s. My Sandy Bridge with dual-channel 1333 gets 20 GB/s.
So it's actually more than double.
The timings are also almost identical.
 
How the hell did they pull that off
 
@Borgleader By not sucking. IIRC, 20GB/s is close the to limit of dual-channel 1333.
So Nehalem just sucked in that respect. And Core 2 generation sucked even more.
 
@Mysticial s/But/By/
 
11:51 PM
My 64GB ram sandbox is Core 2 era DDR2 memory. It takes about a minute to zero initialize all of it.
 
So if Sandy Bridge is close to the limit for dual-channel. How close is Ivy-Bridge to the triple-channel limit? Do you know?
 
@Mysticial So that is 1 megabyte per millisecond? (64*2**30)/60/1000/(2**20) = 1.09226666667
 
@Mikhail Something like that. It takes the OS to zero-initialize 60 GB of ram. But if I do a simply memset() over all of it when it's already allocated and commited, it's about 4x faster.
That machine gets about 4 GB/s memory bandwidth. If I run both sockets at the same time, it'll get up to almost 7 GB/s since the two sockets have their own channels.
 

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