last day (2098 days later) » 

8:00 PM
SOCVR is putting a lot of feedback in.
 
@ArtOfCode We're speaking abo-- Oh okay
 
@Undo Wait what's this?
 
I don't think it is a problem
 
If people are going nuts with their feedback, we'll notice it eventually. Metasmoke has tools (or has the ability to have tools) to find and invalidate these things.
 
@IͶΔ a list of all privileged users I imagine
 
8:00 PM
@IͶΔ Feedback on Smokey (k, f, n...)
 
I don't see the point of the second proposal. Why only have RO privileged here, when anyone can be privileged, just as long as it's in a different room.
 
At the point where someone is feeding the system bad feedback, we'll take action. Otherwise, no harm (and some good) done.
 
@Kyll can't be; I've given smokey feedback before and I'm not even on that list
 
@Kyll In SOCVR, or in all rooms?
 
@TylerH in the last 60 days
 
8:01 PM
the bot responds to mods as having full access anyway, right?
 
I only recall some earlier annoyances from 404 when we were reporting low quality instead of spam
 
I've done it in the last 60 days as well
 
@IͶΔ all rooms, but a good deal of it is from SOCVR
 
@JonClements yeah, I'm not on the list
 
This matter was raised because SmokeDetector can have potentially desastrous effect to users that are (wrongly) reported.
 
8:02 PM
though it's not my fault if I don't use the exact syntax and Smokey isn't paying attention...
 
@TylerH Uh, weird
 
I moved my feedbacking over to Charcoal HQ
 
and if you bot gets out of control, we can ban it from chat - so no issue
 
@Undo That's weird, since I remember more feedback than that on my side.
O_o
 
@Tunaki If people are reporting bad things, tell one of us and we'll take care of it.
@IͶΔ last 60 days, and only on SO posts.
 
8:02 PM
with the benefit that I now flag network wide
 
@Tunaki That's a non-issue. It's up to everyone to make sure what they're reporting actually is spam rather than jumping on bandwagons.
 
@Tunaki that is something we as RO need to address and I assume the regulars follow our example
 
I'm ok with letting regulars in SOCVR have smokey privileges. The RO's job is to control bot misuse, not to use the bots.
 
Really, this is a question of how SOCVR can work with Charcoal to minimize abuse.
 
Personally I can recall 2 mistakes I made with sd k ing something I would probably not have - barely - in retrospect.
 
8:03 PM
If bandwagoning happens, then this room has gone above and beyond its mandate in a bad way. It's not here to bandwagon; it's here to share potential for quicker community review.
 
I want to know if we even have any cases of outright abuse
that is - positive feedback and deletion in cases where its clearly not spam
 
Even if things get out of hands, members have been shown to quickly reflect and think about what they've done in a constructive manner and explain their choices / mistakes
 
@Magisch not really. Some cluelessness, no real abuse that I'm aware of.
 
@Undo Oh aha, makes sense.
 
because personally
 
8:04 PM
Its was some confusion about smokey in SOCVR (@Ferrybig) has been great to ask clarifications, maybe add some directions in FAQ?
 
I noted a few days ago that metasmoke admins now have the ability to erase feedback; that's good if you get it wrong, just ping an admin. We can also go through lists of conflicted feedback to check up for anyone doing it wrong.
 
@ArtOfCode indeed... and I don't feel that right now... I'm here because I don't believe that will happen and I'll support the ROs
 
I don't think anyone with sd privs currently is irresponsible enough to do that
or - if they do - not to at least remedy the mistake by notifying a mod
 
@Magisch wise words
 
Let's handle cases of abuse the day they happen
 
8:05 PM
@Kyll hipster
 
@TylerH ikr
 
I'll be massively disappointed if they let me down, but I know they won't
 
The only problem I see with smokey is that users are to aggressively flagging things as spam, example
 
Honestly I don't expect anyone here to outright abuse Smokey; I'll be surprised if that day comes. But if it does, we can deal with it strictly as a Charcoal matter; this room need not worry about that.
 
@Ferrybig That is 100% not legit looking.
 
8:07 PM
@Ferrybig Thats borderline imo
 
Conclusion: "Yes we are okay with that. Up to ROs to control bot misuse and alert accordingly".
 
@Ferrybig I marked that as spam, I still think it is. It looks fishy as hell and is NAA, spam enough for me
 
@Undo Its not really that legit, but its more naa than spam for me
 
@Ferrybig it's spam, but I have a little more info on it than you do.
 
Conclusion: we are fine with members of SOCVR having permissions to run the bot. RO's will monitor for bot misuse and anyone can bring up odd behavior to the Charcoal room.
 
8:07 PM
See these disagreements are strictly opinion based
 
@gunr2171 sounds sane
 
@ArtOfCode I can live with that, I try to be ping-able in the Charcoal room as well
 
End of topic 6
Topic 7
 
is there further points?
 
> Should we have an SOCVR Code of Conduct that all regulars are expected to follow, not only in SOCVR but also on SO / MSO / chat / any and all SE places?
 
8:08 PM
If people here want to be part of Charcoal and involve themselves in both teams, they're more than welcome.
 
@JonClements There's like 10 or 12
 
also, note that Charcoal is going to come down like a ton of bricks on people intentionally misusing !!/report. That's all I have to say on the matter.
 
@gunr2171 I think yes for regulars
I certainly expect more from room regulars
 
@gunr2171 Why, and how are you going to enforce it?
 
well - you know my opinions
 
8:09 PM
BTW might I request clarification that postponements of topics are postponements until the next meeting, not until later today
 
I like the idea of a code of conduct.
 
I think the basic principle should be: Every moderation action and public comment we make should be defensible on meta should the need arise
 
@gunr2171 I think it would be a good thing to read for any new member and a good thing to show our intentions to the world.
 
@gunr2171 I think we should basically just reiterate the Stack Overflow network rules, if anything
 
basicly the same as SO rules but with less lawyering-exceptions
 
8:09 PM
@gunr2171 We already have this or am I wrong?
 
maaybe a couple more for the fishbowl effect
 
@ryanyuyu If such a code of conduct were to be implemented, what should it contain and how would it differ from the current SE policy?
 
If y'all want to hold yourselves to a higher standard of behaviour, that's not something I'd discourage - the only caveat is the enforcement, to make sure it doesn't just become a moot point.
 
Show of hands: Who knows our curent room guidelines by heart?
 
@TylerH I agree. SO already has a code of conduct. We don't need anything special in our room in terms of "being a good person to talk to"
 
8:10 PM
@rene ... I don't think those are up-to-date xD
 
@rene be nice, explain cv pls, be ready to defend your actions on meta, one person per post as comments, no calling for votes (other then cvs)
 
@gunr2171 Expected to follow, as long as people frown at wrong-doers and nothing more, is good.
 
roughly
 
You can never enforce leading by example, if that's what this is trying to achieve.
 
@gunr2171 Often I can not comment on stuff, that I would if I was not in SOCVR.... : (
so according to me there is all ready...
 
8:11 PM
Other then an enforced ruleset, I would just expect room regulars to hold themselfes to a high standard
 
you can lead by example
 
@PetterFriberg why is that?
 
Check the rules : ), put np I agree...
 
> Hey superman go save those people or I'll stab you. K?
 
My rules? *&^%%%$
 
8:12 PM
^ That's German for oh crap.
 
@Tunaki more emphasis on what serial voting is. I like the idea of being able to defend all actions on meta if someone brings it up. As we saw from the first topic, there are some pretty sketchy things that we could collaborate on that go against the spirit of the privileges.
 
The thing is of course you guys don't.
 
No-Oneboxes
 
The current guidelines are kind of an organic mess, it'd be great to have them rewritten to show our values better and our expectations toward regulars in a more accurate way.
 
Okay - I'll be honest here
 
8:12 PM
What I think is that we need to tone it down with the downvotes following a CV pls
I often see cv-pls questions getting 3-4 dvs in like 20 seconds
I'd rather not
 
I've have had a word with the ROs regarding things
 
So you need to come up with some scripting that doesn't let your actions be focused on one user.
The end result is the same, defending is pretty hard.
 
I'm giving them my 20 years of online communities
so - best you listen to them, okay?
 
^ sounds heavy handed
long time doing something doesn't necessarily mean good decisions... look at politicians
 
it needs to "sink in"
 
8:15 PM
(just to play devil's advocate :-))
 
come on
too much suspense
 
To be honest, its very easy to fall into a semi-mob mentality, and I've been guilty of reflex-downvoting stuff posted in here. But we really should endeavour not to, considering how thoroughly hostile and bully-esque that feels to affected users.
 
sinking
 
2 mins ago, by IͶΔ
So you need to come up with some scripting that doesn't let your actions be focused on one user.
 
@rene no need to - you're a key point on this
anyway, do we have a further point?
 
8:17 PM
Should we add this to the table for the next meeting, so that we can formulate some new good rules/expecations/codes of conduct? Or just agree that SO rules are a good enough baseline
 
If SO rules aren't good enough, let's fix the SO rules.
 
^
 
@Undo Conclusion, that
 
I don't fancy expanding the rules beyond the room
 
SOCVR expanding rules past this room is just overreaching, and nothing good can come of it.
 
8:18 PM
End of topic 7
Topic 8
> Creating editing events as well as close events (specially while burnating tags); if so, coordination of edits needs to be discussed.
 
@Undo you and I have more of say that most - so let's do that
 
god damnit no more stars
 
That's another point of mine : )
 
imo editing events are bad as they bump old posts, hence attract spamsters
 
The idea is to expand and show good will..
 
8:20 PM
IMO the 'but it bumps stuff' argument is worthless on SO
 
@Undo Yes
 
SO's churn rate is extremely high anyway.
 
@gunr2171 I'm all in favour of running more diverse events, particularly editing. They'd need quite some specific rules and preferably a nice toolset..
 
stuff remains on the front page for like two minutes
 
I do agree... churn rate is massive on SO
 
8:20 PM
if that
 
We had a community manager in and he asked (or spook) about this.... as like if he wanted us to start with this
 
Jon Ericson
I support having an edit event
 
Yes (I could not target user) : )
 
whoa, editing events
that sounds like something that needs its own meeting
 
@Undo Thanks, got that point.
 
8:21 PM
I'm all for that, though
we all edit a lot as users of the SOCVR team
partly because we're the kind of user to do that and partly as a function of our reviewing/cleanup behavior
 
Apart from editing events, there was also the matter of reopening events.
 
It could be specially target on burnation tags to save good question and more experienced users could help everybody to get better..
 
@Tunaki considering how worthless the reopen queue is atm, I'd rather not
 
and sadly, I think you don't need realise when you really need a mod or not ;(
 
Related, when burnination requests are being acted upon, should we also monitor suggested edits to make sure that any suggestions for that tag are acceptable?
 
8:22 PM
You get an event, and you get an event! Everyone gets an event!
 
sieving through like 85% still-trash to get 2 or 3 worthy posts in 30 reviews isn't really worth it
 
@Tunaki It doesn't happen often that stuff we closed gets edited enough to be worth opening
 
Now... a tag wiki edit event could be productive.
 
@Mogsdad we have to be VERY careful there though
to not have members approve tag wiki edits from other members
that would paint a very dim light of our accountability
 
For example when burniation ends lets edit the questions that remains to not only remove tag... (coordinated with suggestions from users... )
 
8:24 PM
is anyone going to put themselves up for mod?
 
I like @the idea that PetterFriberg has.
 
@JonClements when?
 
@JonClements I'd certainly try again
 
@PetterFriberg This is something we're already doing, although it's not enclosed in an "event". Edits made during burnination are not just about removing the tag, but improving the question.
 
@JonClements I would probably if I had any shot at getting there, but failing that, no.
 
8:25 PM
@JonClements not enough time nor enough rep to be elected.
 
wow - many pings
 
@Tunaki Agree so lets coordinate it.... I love it when you help me out and suggest tags ecc..
 
@Magisch Fair enough, although it loops back to the trust issue Jon brought up on topic 1. It would be simple enough to have participants ignore the review queue for the event. But keep in mind; many of us can edit wikis without review already.
 
And on SO - lets be real here - I would never get past a primary
 
How about over the next 2 months we do some trial edit / tag edit events? Someone can volunteer to lead the meeting.
 
8:26 PM
^ I like that
 
Cool
 
Edit events also suggest that a large amount of users (around 10?) will be editing the same place of SO. How do you coordinate that? We don't have a nice queue for it, so we'd need a specific process or maybe a server to help us.
 
^^^ Forgot about that
 
ooh that's a logistical problem.
 
if there's one thing I hate about SO it's the lack of an edit lock
 
8:28 PM
@TylerH ?
 
So yeah, we need experimentations - and bots. Many more bots!
 
Make a small first edit to mark your territory.
 
JAL
What about if we try fixing common typos, closing questions if necessary
 
@ryanyuyu exactly. if we agree to try out some trial events, those details can be ironed out by the person running the event
 
@JonClements start editing something and then someone else comes along and makes a smaller edit
causing me to reload the page to see what was edited and then start over
and then often someone will edit it again before you are finished
 
JAL
8:29 PM
LOL rene
 
when I start editing a post I don't want anyone else to be able to edit it for at least 5 minutes
well, maybe at least 3 minutes
 
@TylerH I want a git-like diff merge feature
 
but still
 
@gunr2171 sure it's worth trying. No guarantees that I'd be able to participate, but sounds good.
 
Where you can submit your edit, but if there's a conflict, you will be asked to resolve it before continuing.
 
8:30 PM
most people on meta are clearly mistaken because they disagreed with my feature-request :-)
 
I wouldn't want to lock editing for everyone else just because you pressed the "edit" button first.
 
IMO we're probably done this topic. Details to be sorted outside of this meeting.
 
anyway, we've diverged, was there anything left for the meeting?
 
Looks like the regulars are going to give it a try and the RO's support the edit event
 
Is there any disagreement to having trial edit events?
 
8:30 PM
@MadaraUchiha What would be even better is a live-editing system like google docs
 
@JonClements Yep
@gunr2171 Nope
 
where active editors are shown on a sidebar and their edits show up highlighted in different colors
 
Moving on ...
 
Ok, end of Topic 8
Topic 9
> On smoke detector message where a post only needs to be edited, find a rule to avoid conflicting edits attempts. Example: we post a chat message "I will edit" or similar.
 
@gunr2171 yes please
is already practiced afaik
 
8:31 PM
I already do that, it allows me to be slow and then blame ninjas for their speed. Like a natural payback thing.
 
Seems like a reasonable thing. Too bad that probably won't scale too well for the edit events.
 
The question here is whether this should be somehow enforced.
 
I think this should be the same as comments when cv-plsing. Not required or officially encouraged, but a "nice to do".
 
I'd say strongly encouraged is enough
 
@Magisch You mean encou-- damn ninjas
 
8:33 PM
lets do this and lets edit well not only remove fuck or similar stuff...
 
... yeah, encouraged makes more sense
 
Remember that you could be competing with other people outside of the room who don't know about your warning.
 
@gunr2171 Yes, that.
 
@gunr2171 Yeah but the room has quite a high ninja level
Looking at you, Tuna =p
 
well often its SOCVR that edits... and you need time to edit Smokey reports... i
 
8:34 PM
And that's even before you count me.
 
As long as you keep that freaking sword away I'm fine thank you very much
 
if the RO and other user start doing this it will become natural...
 
@gunr2171 Anyone have any objections to this?
 
nope
 
nope
 
8:35 PM
nope
 
As an RO I agree
 
Moving on.
 
Ok, that was a fast one. Let's move on
Topic 10
> Should we move the burnination process to a meta question?
 
@gunr2171 👍
 
I will do that after we finished the 5 test tags
 
8:36 PM
.. Okay, moving on then xD
 
Yes, that is my idea
 
@ryanyuyu it will be, yes
 
Side-note, we have done 4 of the 5 test tags. The 4th is currently at step 5, waiting for final burnination.
 
8:37 PM
Well, another fast one. Next topic then.
Topic 11
 
There is a need to stop users from immediatly removing tags...
 
> Should burnination be officially undertaken by SOCVR or should a new "Burninators" specialized room handle it?
 
Chat FR: sub-rooms.
 
JAL
@gunr2171 I say keep it in the SOCVR. We'd have too many sub-rooms if we continue this pattern
 
@gunr2171 I think the SOCVR has been doing a very good job at burninating tags so far.
 
8:39 PM
What's wrong with Meta posts?
 
This is also about the wording of the comment left on Meta posts, which is currently "The SOCVR is prepared to take this on".
 
@Mogsdad to expand, should chat rooms be responsible for taking on burnination requests?
(unless that's not what you meant)
 
@gunr2171 If we keep it in SOCVR, wouldn't it be the first time a chatroom is precisely referred to in a FAQ? And not a new, specific one at that. I think it'd be amazing.
 
Thanks for that clarification. It is what I meant. Update via Meta is the established pattern.
 
I think that burnination is so closely tied with closing bad questions that it belongs in SOCVR.
 
8:41 PM
SOCVR is open for everybody can not see the problem... some other room is asking to take on the burniation effort?
 
I don't want people having to join a chat room to opt in the burnination efforts.
 
If the questions for a tag weren't mostly bad, it wouldn't need burnination. Just a retag or synonym or something else.
 
If you want SOCVR taking up burnination requests, that's fine, and I'm all for that, but all the relevant info must also be reflected to meta
 
Yes. What we've doing so far is answering the post as a community-wiki and update the progress.
 
@JonClements I am going to be( I know it is a late reply )
 
8:45 PM
I think burninations should not be chatroom dependent. If a chat room wants to donate it's resources, that's great. A meta answer should be the main hub for burnination coordination.
 
^
 
So in the meta-faq-proposed I'll mention that a chatroom can be used to head a burination, the SOCVR is a room that has done that in the past and will be doing that until a unicorn dies
 
^^-- god damn freaking ninjas
 
8:46 PM
I think if SOCVR does not take up the challenge no one does...
 
That is true
 
@gunr2171 I think this is the conclusion. Any disagreements?
 
Nope
 
@rene ...and that if a chat room is doing so, it should be linked from the post.
 
No disagreements. I like how the CW updates are being handled.
 
8:47 PM
@rene Is it unicorn hunting season already?
 
sure is
 
Great. We've covered all topics then.
 
Crap, I got called away
 
Barely took 47 minutes more than the timing said
 
Thank you everyone. This ends the main meeting. We'll get to the name topic in another meeting.
 
8:48 PM
Stack Overflow Janitors!
 
I'll say that keeping the burnination requests in the SOCVR room is just more ammo for changing the room name :-D
 
The github page will be updated shortly with resolutions and bookmarks.
 
Thanks
 
@TylerH which is why I think that the postponement was a good idea.
@gunr2171 thanks for organizing this thing.
 
@ryanyuyu your welcome. Glad we all had a good time.
 
8:50 PM
@gunr2171 I need your bookmarks only, if you have time
 
@gunr2171 Oh no no no, this is a zero-fun zone!
No fun allowed!
@gunr2171 it's -> its on the last resolution decision
 
SO Fun Hatters
 
> Hatters
 
@TylerH Hatters
 
You're Mad
 
8:54 PM
I just hat fun
@TylerH ikr
 
Thanks @gunr2171
inb4 the room is made a gallery
 
Hope you weren't out of popcorn
 
Not at all, But this did last longer than expected
 
9:34 PM
room mode changed to Gallery: anyone may enter, but only approved users can talk
 

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