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12:47 AM
@GavinSimpson I all seriousness I really think you just don't get what @JoshuaUlrich and I are saying. The rules are there, and not testing suggested packages is the violation.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel The rules say packages needed for tests go in suggests. The wording is ambiguous at best as to whether tests using Suggested packages must be conditional on package being available
So yes, I do get it Dirk.
 
You confuse the rule for the test framework -- which is covered elsewhere in WRE -- with suggests for arb. pkg used by tests.
 
You don't get to interpret the rules for everyone else just yourself
 
I quoted Sections 1.1.3 and 1.1.3.1 once already, I am not going to do again. Let's just agree to disagree here.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel No I'm not - where does it say in WRE that tests using pkgs in suggests must be conditional. The parts you quoted earlier don't say that
Like I said, they're ambiguous at best
@DirkEddelbuettel I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't just assume I don't have a fucking clue what I'm talking about or that I've misunderstood you. I don't agree with you is all. Assuming I haven't a clue is no basis for discussion.
 
 
9 hours later…
10:19 AM
<we need some more crickets in here>
 
 
1 hour later…
 
2 hours later…
1:22 PM
@GavinSimpson I think some text got lost in edits along the way (but can't be bothered looking up the diffs to confirm). This is based on the following snippets from 1.1.3*:
This suggests that the docs changed at some point:
> It used to be common practice to use require calls for packages listed in ‘Suggests’ in functions which used their functionality, but nowadays it is better to access such functionality via :: calls.
Then the meat that tells us that "suggests" packages (used to be) recommended to be conditionally "required":
> Note that someone wanting to run the examples/tests/vignettes may not have a suggested package available (and it may not even be possible to install it for that platform). The recommendation used to be to make their use conditional via if(require("pkgname"))): this is fine if that conditioning is done in examples/tests/vignettes.
I agree that the text is not as clear as it could be, but I personally definitely interpret this as meaning the recommendation is for "suggests" packages to be conditionally required or requreNamespace
I also think that the only valid license for R packages is GPL (>=2) so take my views with a fat grain of salt.
 
 
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3:34 PM
@BrodieG what's unclear here is context - this is what has been enforced on CRAN for a while in examples (which were often the only tests in pkgs) and later vignettes.
@BrodieG And this is where I feel there are several ambiguities and inconsistencies with the "source". We get hassled about unconditional use of Suggested pkgs in examples and vignettes by eg CRAN but elsewhere requirements for testing packages are unclear and not interpreted that way by, eg CRAN.
 
@GavinSimpson Feels a little like justices trying to interpret the founding fathers intentions in the constitution except that instead of them (founding fathers) being two centuries dead they are just non-communicative.
 
@BrodieG Yup, which is why I defer to the interpretation by the people of relevance to me and distribution of my pkgs, and, for better or worse, that's the CRAN Maintainers, and they interpret Suggests for testing differently to Dirk's interpretation (more properly Dirk's opinion as to what is good practice re dependencies - something I more or less agree with)
 
4:12 PM
There is prior non-public context from discussions I had with CRAN. In essence, and I paraphrase from emails years ago so take a saltshaker with this, they agree that these are options and should be tested for ... but don't enforce because of prior practice / too much breakage.
It is all a little ridiculous. At the end of the day we do need several non-overlapping tags for this, and currently we cram several meanings into Suggests which clashes.
But boy the twitter discussion was getting WAY beyond moronic. Nobody is threatening testthat and what not.
 

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