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nwp
7:01 PM
@Puppy sol2 turned out to be fairly decent at bindings, I still have not had the need for a fork
 
Ell
@Puppy It's worse than JS IMO
 
@BogdanMarginean omg it's actually different
it seems to have more contrast so it's better
my eyes just need to adjust
 
7:27 PM
 
7:43 PM
@Ell why?
 
Ell
arrays are 0 indexed for one :P
 
in Lua or JS?
js ofc
 
Ven
they're 1-indexed in lua
in perl they're $[ indexed... :P
 
not really fair to say arrays are 1-indexed in Lua, they don't have first-class array
 
Ell
really?
are they like php's "arrays"?
 
7:47 PM
dunno php
arrays in Lua are just tables with numerical keys
 
Xeo
It's tables all the way down.
 
Xeo
Literally.
 
8:04 PM
@Mysticial regarding your avx bug with GCC, what was the compiler flags you used again? I removed an extra comma from your array declaration (i had copied it right from your post) and recompiled it with 6.1.0 using std=c+14 with no optimizations and didn't specify the arch as it defaults to x64 anyways it warned that using avx would change the arch i didn't care, and it executes flawlessly. no crash. no bug. nothing. So i'd really like to understand this a little better
 
whoah
Mysticial's arrays can accelerate? no wonder his programs are so fast
 
@johnathon I don't use GCC on Windows period. And I'm not going to even try until I see confirmation that the bug is fixed.
 
@Mysticial what was the flags you was using?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow You should add register to Scorbut.
 
@johnathon N/A - I haven't used GCC on Windows since 2005. And that was before AVX existed.
Based on the nature of the bug, I think the function body needs to be large enough to spill AVX registers. Or some other way to force them onto the stack.
 
8:10 PM
 
@rightfold What difference would it make? Don't display register variables in memory, don't allow address-of operator applied to register variables?
 
@Mysticial i get a warning about AVX not enabled, so blah. so what?. It works.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Makes clear to the maintainer that the variable is not being taken the address of.
 
@rightfold Maintainer? Skorbut doesn't even have multiple translation units, and you're talking about code maintenance? :)
Nobody is going to write more than 100 lines in skorbut.
 
@johnathon If you think it's fixed, then go ahead and request that they close that bug.
I've never participated in it at all. I'm just the observer.
 
user1804599
8:12 PM
@fredoverflow Make it the default, like in Fortran.
 
@Mysticial I want to know what flags you told me, because i was able to reproduce it with them.
 
@johnathon Wait. I said I haven't used GCC on Windows with AVX ever. How can I possibly have used flags with it?
If you want repro steps, go look at the bug.
 
@Mysticial wasn't that bug submitted by rubenvb?
 
@johnathon Don't ask me. I found the bug while Googling, and it looks like it's been repro'ed endlessly for years. So AFAIC, it's not fixed. And there's no reason for me to even try GCC with AVX on Windows until it looks resolved.
 
@Mysticial ever thought about trying it so that you could point out to the team that it's fixed?
 
8:17 PM
No because, in my POV, it's a waste of time:
1. There are multiple bugs on GCC pointing out the issue. None of them appear to be fixed. They developers have clearly indicated that they think it's impossible to fix.
2. It takes a lot of time to setup a new environment - especially when crossing Linux/Windows like this with cygwin/MinGW of whatever the modern equivalent is.
3. I have evidence that it's not going to outperform the Intel Compiler.
Or to put it another way, I don't need GCC on Windows. Therefore I really don't care. As long as GCC works on Linux, I'm happy.
 
@Mysticial is your project open source?
 
no
 
@johnathon Missing -march=something??
 
@wilx yes.
@wilx it does perfectly fine (albeit with a warning) without it.
 
@johnathon How sure are you that it actually "works fine"? Is the code large enough where the compiler actually spills ymm registers?
 
8:30 PM
@Mysticial it's the example given in the bug report. It's minimal code. That's why i was asking you to try it. If not, at least provide the project and i'll try it.
@Mysticial or i'll find another , i dont care, if it's a bug that's preventing developers from using it then it needs to be fixed IMHO.
 
@johnathon I'm going to try it because: 1) I don't have the environment setup and I'm not willing to invest the time in doing so. 2) I don't really care enough anymore.
 
Ell
*not going to try
 
@johnathon Both. It's cyclic, nobody uses it because it's broken, and therefore nobody cares to fix it. Given that there are free and easier-to-use alternatives on Windows (MSVC), there really hasn't been a huge demand for it - let alone AVX.
Most of the guys who care about AVX on Windows are probably using ICC anyway.
 
Ell
"free" pshhh
 
@Mysticial I'm glad you know which compiler is used in the various industries in the world, with such confidence to say that no one uses GCC on windows to do anything. ICC is a good compiler but it still generates poor quality code for AMD processors. Intel won that law suit and as such we in the industry deal with it. That's why GCC is used.
 
Ell
8:38 PM
;)
 
@johnathon historic
 
@johnathon Generating poor quality code for AMD processors will hopefully become a much bigger problem for ICC
 
Ell
I wonder what compiler AMD is using
 
@Mikhail AMD sued Intel over it, Intel won. Intel is in no position to promote the use of a competitors hardware, and I don't blame them.
 
@johnathon In late 2010, AMD settled a US Federal Trade Commission antitrust investigation against Intel.[17]
 
8:40 PM
> Fwd:Feugiat Lorem Ipsum Ltd invoice\13hi31
^ Spam subject.
 
@johnathon ICC may be generating "poor quality code" on AMD. But the fact is that even that "poor quality code" is better than what MSVC and GCC generates. And that only applies to auto-vectorization and the MKL. It doesn't artificially try to slow down manually written code. I know because I use ICC and I see what it generates.
 
@johnathon I kinda disagree.
 
Also, \13? End of line? :D
 
if you advertise your compiler as producing x86 machine code, you should produce x86 machine code.
it's one thing to not take advantage of AMD-specific features, and another to pessimize them pointlessly, which is what I recall it did
 
There was a point, 10 years ago, when Intel purposefully broke their code on AMD systems, BUT they got sued and stopped.
 
8:42 PM
@Puppy your right.
 
@johnathon If you care that much about GCC with AVX on Windows, you can go ahead and fix it. Because I've stated repeatedly, that I really don't care. I have enough my own issues to worry about.
 
This reminds me, how is clang with AVX?
 
@Mikhail your wrong. They got sued and INTEL won, AMD stopped using ICC in their products. Intel has no motivation to fix it what so ever.
 
@johnathon I just sent you the fucking wikipedia quote
 
@Mikhail It's not especially definitive. It merely states that it was settled, it doesn't say what the terms were, which is the important part.
 
8:44 PM
That is how lawsuits work, it was settled AGAINST Intel.
 
no
they settled (an investigation against intel)
not (they settled an investigation) against intel
 
https://www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/Intel-still-hasnt-paid-AMD-12-billion-USD-anti-trust-fine

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6554308/Intel-to-pay-1.25bn-to-settle-disputes-with-AMD.html
 
Intel definitely did some anti-competitive stuff. Here are the facts that I'm aware of:
1. Intel only used AVX when it detected *both* the AVX cpuid flag *and* an Intel processor.
2. Intel generates code that is meant to run as fast as possible on Intel processors.
3. Intel does not generate intentionally bad code that runs on non-Intel processors.
 
@Mikhail Different antitrust case.
 
The first one was anti-competitive. But the way the media covered it is #3.
 
8:46 PM
@Mysticial #1 is why I even bothered to say anything to you about it.
 
AMD and Intel have many cases between them
those articles cover Intel illegally muscling other companies to cut out AMD chips
nothing to do with ICC
 
Breaking ICC is part of these lawsuits
Also Fun:
Intel has agreed to settle a class action lawsuit that claims the company “manipulated” benchmark scores in the early 2000s to make its new Pentium 4 chip seem faster than AMD’s Athlon. Intel will pay affected consumers $15 if they purchased a Pentium 4 system between November 20, 2000 and June 30, 2002. Affected systems include all systems with a Pentium 4 CPU purchased between November 20, 2000 and December 31, 2001 — and all systems with a first-gen Willamette P4 or all P4s clocked below 2GHz, between January and June 2002. The exception is Illinois — if you live in Illinois an
 
I'd be nice if I only had to use 1 compiler to target all my customer's machines with an acceptable margin of performance that's entirely dependent on hardware and NOT the quality of my code.
 
Right now, if you build a binary using arch:/AVX using ICC, it will run the same way on both Intel and non-Intel processors. The only exception is if you're using the MKL. The MKL does still discriminate on the processor brand, AFAIR.
 
and not the quality of my compiler
 
8:50 PM
So yes, Intel is still doing anti-competitive stuff. But it's not as bad as the media makes it look like.
ICC itself is fair. It's the MKL that isn't.
 
Ell
all praise system RISC V
oh wait err
 
what is MKL?
 
Math Kernel Library
 
@Puppy they only want you crunching numbers on intel hardware
 
think I'd be set firmly against an ICC dependency frankly
everybody who has one is going to suffer when Ryzen comes out, assuming it performs anything like advertised
 
8:54 PM
Ryzen is not going to beat Intel at any AVX benchmarks period - regardless of whether or not ICC "cheats". It doesn't have the hardware for it.
 
I thought that Ryzen was way ahead in benches like Cinebench
 
@Puppy Cinebench doesn't use AVX. Or at least most of the benchmarks don't.
AMD made the conscious decision that they are not going to compete with Intel in HPC so they can focus on sequential performance which is where all the "normal" apps are.
 
maybe hoping they can eat Intel's lunch with GPU?
 
More like, they probably didn't have the budget to do so - at least for Zen1.
They were so far behind, that if they want to stay alive, they need to target mainstream first. Get their foot going, then they can think about the "long tail" which includes HPC.
 
That's much more of a realistic estimate than anything else. They brought in ARM in the server space. They are doing better financially than they were 5 or even 10 years ago for that matter.
 
9:00 PM
@Mysticial tbf intel doesn't want to kill them yet either, they can make the argument that ARM competes but I suspect that wouldn't fly too far in a court
 
Ell
surely if AMD dies out "naturally", then there can't be an anti trust against intel
 
although Cable shows that argument works
@Ell depends on how they die
also AMD has a habit of doing innovative things that Intel likes to license
 
@Ell There certainly can be.
just because there are no competitors doesn't mean that you don't abuse your market position illegally
harming your competitors is just the most direct thing to do
see antitrust suits against Microsoft for Windows, for instance
 
well, at least not intentionally assisting them...
 
they don't have any real competitors for usable desktop operating systems, but they've still been bitchslapped with various antitrust suits
 
9:03 PM
that said the AMD64 patents should keep AMD alive even if only on life support for awhile
 
Ell
@Puppy it makes me wonder that if they weren't bitchslapped, would a competitor have popped up?
 
@Ell Considering that a competitor did not pop up despite Microsoft getting bitchslapped, I'd have to say "no"
frankly at this juncture it's almost unthinkable of any serious competition until Google ports Android
 
Ell
@Puppy I'm saying that the bitchslapping may have prevented a competitor popping up
 
why would it have done that?
 
9:05 PM
@Puppy chrome books.
 
if you want to compete against Microsoft, having them have to pay a hefty fine and get a bunch of negative press is a great time to start
 
Ell
But, it means there is less reason to start a competition right
 
um, no.
 
Ell
if Windows is quite abusive to it's customers, the customers might accept it
 
9:07 PM
Ell's pointing out that most people who compete with MS really just want MS to end up buying them out for a ridiculously insane amount of $
 
the reason to not compete against Windows is because it's massively entrenched (technologically and socially) and Microsoft is one of the richest, most powerful corporations in the world.
 
@Ell They're getting there. Especially with Windows 10 and all the spying and removal of control.
 
Ell
if they are really terribly abusive to it's customers then maybe they have gone beyond the threshold and customers will start moving to the competitor
 
But that only pisses off computer-saavy people - which I assume are migrating quite heavily to Linux anyway.
 
Ell
so perhaps the bitchslap just prevented microsoft from going over the threshold
 
9:08 PM
@Mysticial i use both rather interchangeably, outside the scope of gaming.
 
@Mysticial Frankly, I find pinning Edge on my taskbar to be far more offensive.
 
I agree with puppy
 
@Ell Having it be extensively advertised what a shit you are is hardly going to endear people to Windows.
 
what's even worse is it's advertisements of how much more secure and faster it is than firefox, when the POS crashed the first time i tried to do anything productive with it.
 
but really, on the scale of "How do I compete with Windows?" the first 99% is "Build something that's actually competitive with Windows"
 
9:10 PM
To be fair, it'll get better.
 
@johnathon I do not view advertisements so they do not bother me
 
@Puppy You can unpin it.
 
@Puppy it's in the notifications bar on windows 10. It's annoying as hell.
 
@Mysticial No, I can't unpin it, because they keep pinning it back every Windows Update.
 
LOL I know the feeling
 
Xeo
9:11 PM
not happening for me at work
 
@johnathon That can be disabled.
 
Don't update
Updates are for schmucks.
 
@Puppy I block Windows update and do them manually when I feel like it.
 
increasingly what is happening
 
@Mysticial yup, then you also disable your hardware monitoring notifications
@Mysticial and email
 
9:12 PM
@johnathon Those don't get disabled actually.
 
I also had Windows Update randomly uninstall some programs
 
You guys get Ads in Windows 10?
I don't.
 
@Mysticial It's not adds. It's microsoft telling you how much of a dolt you are for not using their products.
 
I have never had Win10 advertise that I can recall, except for the aforementioned taskbar pinning
 
Xeo
I never had either of those
 
9:13 PM
@johnathon I honestly don't get those.
 
@Mysticial so you've disabled your whole action center?
 
yes
 
Xeo
what do you mean, Win+A?
 
@johnathon I turned that off
 
I have an even more intrusive script that also disables Cortana and search. But that's something I only run on my benchmark boxes since I do actually need search on my main machine.
 
9:14 PM
there's things that i rely on that use that. I can't simply turn it off and not look back.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Disabling Cortana is easy.
 
@Xeo and recommended lol
 
Xeo
You can disable cortana and still have search
 
@Xeo I actually need to disable the search indexer itself. Since it's a CPU hog.
 
Xeo
huh
 
9:15 PM
Not good for benchmarking/profiling.
 
@Mysticial I'm honestly surprised you don't use some version of server core on your benchmark boxes
 
So I need to kill Cortana, search indexer, and search.
 
Xeo
I know you could set the indexing paths in older Windows, dunno bout 10
 
heck I'm surprised you use windows on your benchmark boxes
 
I disabled Cortana aas much as I could
but it offends me that it's still in the process list
 
9:16 PM
Then you didn't really disable it.
 
I know
 
One approach is to boot up in Linux, and rename the file.
 
that's what really offends me
 
Ell
@Mysticial AFAIK you can't fully disable it
 
@Mysticial With a Live CD?
 
9:17 PM
It'll come back on the next update though.
 
unless it's stealing information from firefox i don't care if cortana exists. The only things i type in that "ask me anything" box are cmd, control pannel, and things like that
 
@Borgleader Or whatever. I dual-boot.
Telemetry isn't an issue for me anymore. It's not actually a resource hog. And it's easily firewalled off.
 
Xeo
The thing I type most often into the search bar is "calc"
 
lol
@Xeo vti
 
Ell
the thing I type most often into my desktop search is "spot"
I'm on linux tho
 
9:36 PM
@Ell it’s in the audio thing in the top right though
 
10:01 PM
@Ell did I get it right?
 
Ell
@LucDanton yes you did :)
but I don't have a menu bar :)
too many smileys :)
 
I couldn’t remember what you run exactly so it was a bit of a shot in the dark, I’m glad though
 
Ell
I used to be on funtoo
but now I'm on debian
in both cases I run i3 though
 
@Ell i use Debian and Debian based distro's a lot outside of MS professionally, and I've also used Slackware quite a bit professionally, but out of all the non MS operating system's that I've seen the most of professionally it's got to be CPM and RedHat.
 
Ell
@johnathon CPM?
 
10:09 PM
@Ell mainframe, it's technically what we'd call a fork of dos
 
Ell
oh right o.O
 
@Ell boi you call your dog from your pc?
 
When GitHub slogan changes again.
 
10:26 PM
Youre not supposed to notice :P
 
I probably won't notice it anymore when they start changing it daily x)
 
Ell
@набиячлэвэли tumbleweed rolls past
crickets sound
 
A PUPPY BARKS
 
Ell
good dog
 
10:53 PM
> Jason and Richard agree this paper breaks the world
 
@Morwenn D:
 
Whenever I find myself debating whether I should use float or double I recall youtu.be/Fk0V_GGa2XM?t=58 . double it is.
 
Ell
I always use double unless I'm on a gpu
 
I fail to see what that video has to do with floats or doubles
 
@Puppy Look closer
 
11:04 PM
nope
 
@Mysticial Not that you'd ever want to use gcc on windows as you've already stated, but here's information regarding who supports intel chips with the gcc compiler at least back in the days of the gcc 4 series
@Mysticial phoronix.com/…
 
"Now that you've repeatedly and very explicitly stated that you don't give a fuck, allow me to give you some very outdated information about the thing you don't give a fuck about"
5
 
lol
@Puppy hammer and nail principle.
 
what on earth is that
 
@Puppy what he doesn't give a f* about now, today, or even the foreseeable future, may very well be something he has to give a f* about. Take a nail, and drive it home. !
 
11:10 PM
except for the part where at the time he has to give a fuck in the future, he can just find information that's current and relevant at that time
 
@Puppy Not just that. But if I give zero fucks about GCC's AVX on Windows then I give negative fucks about GCC's auto-vectorization AVX.
Since I use intrinsics.
 
and also the part where he's a human being and therefore driving a nail into him is not advisable.
 
puppy you're natively speaking english?
 
but apart from the entire concept of what you just said, the thing you just said makes sense to me
@CaptainGiraffe Yes.
oh, and also the part where he probably won't remember even if he did click the link
 
@Puppy there's always a chance that if he reads it he'll remember it, wouldn't you think?
 
11:13 PM
no.
 
@johnathon First of all, why are you going through so much effort to shove useless shit in my head?
 
@Puppy so you think that everyone on the face of the earth instantly discards everything they read?
 
in pretty large part, yes.
particularly about things where they've already decided they couldn't give a fuck
and when the information is so outdated it's probably worthless anyway even if they did give a fuck
in fact let's face it, there's basically no chance at all that he even clicked the link
 
@Puppy I did click the link, but it wasn't interesting. So I closed it.
 
you wanker.
betraying me, when I am firmly on the side of not pointlessly pinging you
fine then
@Mysticial
 
11:15 PM
LOL
 
enjoy your pingful world @Mysticial
I'm going to bed @Mysticial
as I have work tomorrow @Mysticial
 
@Puppy good night.
 
@Puppy lol
Clicking on a link is pretty easy. Reading it is hard. So I read just the title and closed it.
 
AVX support in gcc was a rather big thing to begin with. Big as in highly anticipated. Intel provided the patch to gcc in the first place.
 
Yes, it was important. And I use it today. What's your point?
 
11:21 PM
well my point is it's not broken if you don't bother to use the flags that was in the bug report. That was your original motivation for not using it on windows at the beginning of this discussion yesterday. If it is broken however, and no matter how long ago it's been broken, the community needs to know about it so it can be fixed, because it's a big thing.
 
Ven
Just wrote my DI in Java.
I feel dirty.
 
@johnathon Alright, you realize that you're starting to get annoying right? If you're just trying to preach GCC and FOSS or whatever, go do that somewhere else. I have better things to do than to fix someone else's project when it doesn't get in way of my own shit and when I have other problems of my own to deal with.
 
@Mysticial I won't say anything else about it, my intent wasn't to make you mad. We all have our own problems to deal with and I respect that.
 
In the amount of time you've spent bugging me about it (and I've repeatedly said that I don't give a shit), you could've already posted on that bug and told them to retest or mark as fixed.
 
I'd like to validate it exists first
 
11:30 PM
Ok fine. It doesn't exist, I made it all up. That bug is all fake news and alternative facts. Now tell them to close the bug.
 
@Mysticial i'm not saying the report isn't made up, im not saying what you linked is fabricated by any means. I'm saying I can't reliably reproduce it. My personal home pc is far from a lab though.
@Mysticial but before i go opening my mouth to Kia i'd rather like to have proof of the bug to present to him.
 
And I've told you repeatedly that I don't care. End of conversation.
You're starting to sound a lot like those door-to-door preachers who are clearly hanging out in the wrong neighborhood.
 
@Mysticial what video card did you order?
 
> The Public folder was the first sharing method we introduced, and since then, we’ve built more sophisticated ways for you to share securely and work together with your team.
Yeah, fuck you too, Dropbox
 
11:53 PM
Dropbox's strategy - threaten to close down your account, then continue to spam you after your account is closed
 
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