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Xeo
9:01 PM
@AndyProwl I want no beer and I have non. I win!
 
let's write a mobile OS that does not suck
 
@JerryCoffin His claim that "This color of person causes this crime" doesn't always hold true, so it's not a tautology. Therefore, it's not to say that correlation implies causation.
 
@Xeo bad bad Xeo@
yay palyndromes
 
@Xeo what you mean you don't want beer?
 
Xeo
beer sucks
 
9:04 PM
you have no soul
 
are you trolling?
 
Xeo
no
beer sucks, plain and simple
mead ftw
 
and false
 
stop trolling please
 
mead's awesome too
 
9:05 PM
I will call mods
 
Xeo
right. beer sucks tremendously. There, that's correct.
 
user1804599
The choice of words: bravenewgeek.com/…
 
Xeo
:)
 
user1804599
I'm so confused.
 
beer sucks
you mad?
 
9:05 PM
@khajvah No, he is serious
 
I haz teh cans of Directors:)
 
Some people don't like beer. I know, shocking.
But they are people too.
 
user1804599
Unapologetically, touting, eloquently, adage, diatribes, pontificate.
 
@Jefffrey Not seem much real evidence of that round here.
 
@Jefffrey Yeah but they have no soul
 
9:06 PM
@AndyProwl au contraire my brah
 
do I have to install all the google junk just to get play store working?
 
> Every time you attempt to parse HTML with regular expressions, the unholy child weeps the blood of virgins, and Russian hackers pwn your webapp.
from an answer...with 4.3k votes...
 
@AndyProwl Nah, those are called "gingers"
 
Ell
beer is alright
 
it seems like it. Fuck you google, I am gonna use amazon app store
 
Ell
9:08 PM
I prefer cider personally vOv
 
I sincerely think the guy was on acid when he wrote the answer.
 
lol
 
Xeo
Mead, Mojito, Caipirinha, Pina Colada, Cuba Libre, those are all nice and tasty.
Beer is just yuck.
 
IRTA "Pina Cicada"
 
He's getting to you without even trying.
 
9:11 PM
mead, cider, mojito <3
 
Beer is yummy
 
It's raining and my internet is very laggy to play agar.io
wat do
 
make a snake game
 
agar.io is great.
Got killed by ISIS yesterday.
And apparently I killed feminism.
 
I'd rather drink 1000 appletinis than drink 1 beer
 
user1804599
9:14 PM
Today was a sad day.
 
user1804599
I don't know why.
 
@Nooble I ate tumblr today.
 
you guys should play Russian servers
 
Ell
@Xeo I've not tried mead but I approve of everything else on that list :P
 
Why do people keep saying C++ exceptions are bad?
I don't quite get it.
 
9:15 PM
@Griwes Nice.
 
Xeo
@Rapptz no clue
 
How is it any different from Python/Java/C#/etc exceptions?
 
Ell
I'm not sure
 
@Rapptz Historic reasons.
 
Ell
I don't see the problem with c++ exceptions
 
9:16 PM
I play on East Asian servers.
 
Xeo
CAN THROW ANYTHING or something like that
 
Super nice.
 
I'm reading the article posted by rightfold and he shits on C++ exceptions randomly but the guy likes Python.
 
The ABIs for exceptions were pretty bad in the Old Times/are pretty bad on the Old Platforms.
 
Ell
I also still don't know why rust got rid of exceptions vOv
 
9:16 PM
It seems odd.
 
Ell
@Rapptz writing exception safe code is hard
 
user1804599
Because Haskell programmers avoid them.
 
Ell
(apparently)
I think that is the reason
 
@Rapptz badlets
@Rapptz Also "C/C++ users"
 
user1804599
@Rapptz cause leak when new is used.
 
Xeo
9:17 PM
@Rapptz Cargo hating
 
(also known as badlets)
 
user1804599
And people don't know how not to use new.
 
c/c++ is a nice language
 
> There are other peculiar idiosyncrasies. Error handling is generally done by returning error values. This is fine, and I can certainly see the motivation coming from the abomination of C++ exceptions, but there are cases where Go doesn’t follow its own rule.
context of quote btw
 
user1804599
@Rapptz which article?
 
9:17 PM
inb4 quote about quote about quote about rightfold's opinions
 
user1804599
ooooh that one.
 
@rightfold non sequitur
 
Xeo
@Rapptz lol
 
user1804599
I didn't find the lack of exceptions in Go to be a problem.
 
Xeo
Result<T> / Either<T, Error> or similar or bust!
 
user1804599
9:18 PM
Returning errors is more flexible.
 
user1804599
You can more easily return sets of errors and pass errors around over channels.
 
@Rapptz Well, I can list all many problems with C++ exceptions, but not using them is worse.
 
user1804599
Which is awkward with exceptions.
 
@rightfold Not really.
 
user1804599
@Xeo then just go with exceptions.
 
user1804599
9:20 PM
Using monads to abstract it away suffers from the same problems as exceptions in that they make you ignore error handling.
 
Xeo
Do they?
Also, I just realised - I got a long weekend after tomorrow \o/
 
user1804599
I prefer explicit propagation.
 
Xeo
gotta love national holidays
 
error codes make you ignore error handling more than exceptions
 
user1804599
Why?
 
user3010322
9:21 PM
Exceptions force you to handle errors because they smash your program if left unhandled.
 
that's the point
 
user3010322
Error codes leave you in an undefined state if you forget to check them.
 
because with error codes it is easy to forget doing error handling
with exceptions it's harder
 
I was just watching an interview. The interviewer asks "Do you like revolutions?"
 
user1804599
@ThePhD In Go you explicitly have to say you don't want to handle them by assigning to _.
 
Xeo
9:22 PM
Just make Result<T> throw an exception if it's an error and unhandled vOv
Rust does that in .unwrap(), IIRC
 
user1804599
Unused variables in Go are an error; you can't compile programs that have them.
 
that is even worse question than SO questions
 
I don't see many people checking the error codes returned from C functions
 
Xeo
@Rapptz yeah, because it's annoying as fuck
 
user1804599
And there is a static tool that checks for calls that return errors where the return value is not assigned to anything.
 
9:22 PM
it is
 
wait are we talking specifically about Go?
 
user3010322
@rightfold The way google's C++ builds work is they check if you forgot to handle the status object that gets returned.
 
or about exceptions vs error codes in general?
 
user3010322
And compile-time failure.
 
I wanna know why C++ exceptions are bad sans new.
 
user3010322
9:23 PM
@AndyProwl In general but referencing current implementations and designs and discussing their merits.
 
user3010322
@Rapptz CException*
 
?
 
user3010322
Courtesy of MFC. :v
 
user1804599
Consider these three Go functions:
 
user3010322
MFC generates a new CException() to be thrown.
 
user1804599
9:24 PM
func f1(w io.Writer) {
    _, err := w.Write([]byte("Hello, world!")))
}
func f2(w io.Writer) {
    _, _ := w.Write([]byte("Hello, world!")))
}
func f3(w io.Writer) {
    w.Write([]byte("Hello, world!")))
}
 
user3010322
And you have to delete it.
 
user3010322
Or you leak a (tiny) amount of memory.
 
user1804599
f1 won't compile. f2 explicitly shows that the error is not handled. f3 is caught by errcheck.
 
nice
 
how is that C++'s problem
MFC is shit
 
user3010322
9:25 PM
It's not C++'s problem, but it's just one of those things you can do that makes you say "Damn, that's wonky."
 
Exceptions reduce the noise. The code is more readable because the happy flow is not polluted with error propagation logic and conditionals
 
though this brings up a decent problem
you can throw anything you want
 
user3010322
throw 1;
 
which is a pro/con sort of thing
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl I don't make a distinction between happy flows and sad flows.
 
user1804599
9:26 PM
Errors are part of the normal operation of the program and errors are just values like any other value.
 
@Rapptz Inability to do anything sensible in catch(...), questionable design of existing current exception hierarchies, lack of stack trace, exception-safe code is hard
 
user1804599
Bugs such as OOB array access are contract violations, which are a different beast and should immediately terminate the program.
 
it is useful to treat the error situation and the no-error situation separately
 
Ell
@rightfold when are exceptions not contract violations?
 
Fun fact: catch(...) caught SEH exceptions in old VC++ versions
 
9:27 PM
functions have success contracts and failure contracts
 
user3010322
My favorite quote on the subject:
 
user3010322
May 13 '13 at 10:10, by Rapptz
Hence, catch(...) { /* dealing with retards */ }
 
user1804599
@Ell opening a file that doesn't exist isn't necessarily a bug.
 
user1804599
division by zero is always a bug.
 
Ell
trying to open a file that doesn't exist is a bug imho
 
9:28 PM
no, not necessarily
 
user1804599
No.
 
@ThePhD yeah throwing anything is really questionable design tbh
 
user1804599
It's something you can't protect yourself from.
 
@Ell It can happen outside of your control
 
Ell
you should check if it exists before you attempt to open it
 
9:28 PM
@Ell I open a file that doesn't exist to create it.
@Ell Race condition.
 
Ell
@Rapptz that's fair enough
@Rapptz oh yeah :/
 
user1804599
It's absolutely impossible to protect from opening nonexistent files, since file systems are non-transactional shared memory.
 
Ell
I concede
 
user3010322
@Rapptz The good news is, if someone tries to throw 1, you could omit the catch (...) clause and just crash.
 
user3010322
And then you can find the offending library and punch them in the mouth.
 
9:29 PM
yeah you should always throw something derived from std::exception
if a library doesn't do that then I'm not gonna use it
 
inb4 boost::exception
 
user1804599
@Rapptz I do you tell whether it does?
 
user3010322
That should be part of @R.MartinhoFernandes list of things libraries should do.
 
user1804599
In C++, exception types thrown aren't part of the interface.
 
user3010322
@milleniumbug That hasn't been changed in recent versions to derive from std::exception ?
 
9:30 PM
@ThePhD Not quite sure, AFAIR this was by design
 
user1804599
I like how in Eiffel you cannot call a function without using its result.
 
user1804599
I wish Go had that.
 
@PaulMcKenzie that's just the sign extension due to signed char (that's implementation defined). So, to "fix" it it would be static_cast<int>(static_cast<unsigned char>(ch)). I didn't think that was necessary, it would be kinda obvious... It's not an outlier. It's the expected UTF8 multibyte leader — sehe 1 min ago
Someone is experiencing UNICODE is teh hardz. Or c++. I dunno
 
11
Q: Change "comment" to "critique or request clarification"

Shog9Got around to talking about comment flags with Robert Cartaino this morning... We're working on rejiggering the flagging options to make it a bit more obvious when stuff should be flagged, with the end goal of making it possible to automate some of the current flag-handling. More on that later; o...

 
@ThePhD damn that's wonky
 
9:32 PM
hola senoras
 
user1804599
square(n: INTEGER): INTEGER do Result := n * n end
make
    do
        square(42) -- type error; wouldn't make sense according to CQS
    end
 
user1804599
This is an absolute killer feature.
 
user1804599
CQS is great.
 
rightfold is a language chameleon
 
user1804599
I should write this application I had in mind in Eiffel.
 
user1804599
9:33 PM
If I can find a PostgreSQL library for Eiffel that'd be terrific.
 
@milleniumbug I don't get the issue with #2, #3 is an issue yes, #4 is easier with RAII.
 
@rightfold okay but how is it a type error ;) Not every classification is a type, right.
 
@Rapptz I found this spot that looked nice and peaceful
 
user1804599
Otherwise I can write one using libpq and FFI.
 
user1804599
9:34 PM
@sehe right; it's an invalid function call.
 
user1804599
You can only call procedures like that, not functions.
 
I've been wondering
what's geralt's motivation to liberate outpo...
I mean to clear sites
for people to reinhabit
 
> One example of this is the use of the J and K hot keys for next and previous which have been popularize by applications such as Gmail, Google Reader (now history), Twitter and Tumblr.
getoffmylawn
 
7 baked potatoes
thats a lot of starch
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
source?
 
user3010322
9:35 PM
@CatPlusPlus What... happened to arrow keys?
 
Ell
@rightfold how does this work with polymorphic languages though?
polymorphic functions I mean
they could throw different exception types
 
Nothing, it's just J/K are much older than twotter
Or badmail
 
@Ell you return a unit, not void, and suddenly everything makes sense
 
@AlexM. You mean the abandoned sites?
 
user1804599
@Ell void f<T>() throws T.
 
9:37 PM
@Rapptz yes the 1:1 copy of what you do in far cry
 
@Rapptz I heard that C++stdlib exception hierarchy is a problem for some people, because it doesn't use virtual inheritance
 
iunno
 
even the lame several second cutscene you get at the end resembles FC
 
makes you feel good
 
Ell
but I mean let's say f is a virtual member function, what if a derived class also throws U
 
9:37 PM
I mean he's not being paid to do it
 
Ell
actually it doesn't matter
I realise why now...
 
just get XP for being a nice guy I guess
 
@milleniumbug >multiple inheritance of exceptions
but why?
 
user1804599
@Ell Then it's wrong, see Liskov Substitution Principle.
 
@AlexM. I'm thinking if you keep doing it people will treat you nicer around the town
 
9:40 PM
@Rapptz It makes sense a bit. If something failed for two reasons, you can throw an exception that derives from two exception classes. The receiving code can then catch exception 1, exception 2, or exception 1+2
 
in what scenario is this possible
 
haven't had that problem personally, but I can imagine that could be a problem for some people
"the argument is too long, also the control sum is wrong"
 
..?
check argument first; throw if error is spotted
throw a different exception for 'control sum'.
single responsibility etc
 
@milleniumbug And then you're writing a state machine just to note all possible errors
And also map it to all possible subclasses
And now you throw 30 different exceptions
Dumb
 
The C++ standard library has two derived 'base' exceptions: std::logic_error and std::runtime_error.
 
9:46 PM
@Cat do you write custom Exceptions in C# often? I rarely do.
 
user1804599
array_agg is really nice.
 
Only reason I can think of is wcf ew and if I want to pass data
 
makinguiwithunity.png
 
@CatPlusPlus That's not the name of that image.
It's "2015-05-21_23-47-37.png"
 
actually it's etiennes_mother.png
 
evening ladies and, well, ladies
 
evening dog
Well... bitch?
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus such fun
 
> Log files have traditionally been in plain text, which may have been fine while our discipline was in its infancy, but perhaps not any more: if there is a security concern, then the log file must be binary and/or encrypted.
lol
BINARY IS SECURITY
 
Xeo
> binary
whuat
 
9:56 PM
@milleniumbug This is a truly beautiful answer.
 
He corrected himself about the binary stuff at the end
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus It'd be nice if logs could have binary sections in which data could be attached.
 
@CatPlusPlus Dincha know? Security through obscurity is the most effective kind!
 
They might see A STACKTRACe
Well be DOoomd
 
9:57 PM
This comic is saying something subtle about degrees but I don't... quite get it
help me out lounge
 
It's a terrible comic
 
Degrees suck and you'll die in a mine anyway
 
I suppose it could be interpreted as saying that even when you have a degree, you're still worthless
 
kchuah
 
@sehe I do?
 
9:58 PM
If you do coal mining, you probably die of various respiratory and whatever complications
 
@Brian oh shit, I like this interpretation
 
@Prismatic If everyone has a degree, no one has.
 
@ThePhD They... can? If you really care about making structured log files
Binary logs tend to be hard to analyse with existing tools, so people usually don't bother
 
I was thinking that I should watch one of those Blow's videos to sleep
 
Even if it's structured it'll probably be a stream of JSON objects
 
user3010322
10:00 PM
@CatPlusPlus Yeah... and I just thought of just doing the obvious: writing out extra files.
 
@Jefffrey Doesn't work, you'll be enraged instead.
 
Meh, I doubt that.
 
@LucDanton Aw. It happened again. Spurious reply-to. Feature of my browser :(
 
Nov 17 '12 at 21:10, by sehe
@sbi Oh me neither. My browser one day decided to remember the last reply-to id used and always sticks it into the edit field, even after cold boot etc. I sometimes fail to notice.
 
10:03 PM
Ok, maybe I will
> .cpp
 
@Jefffrey ew. That's... horrendic
 
Yeah, he is using it with the intention of using C++
C++11+ to be exact
 
@Jefffrey Calling this code C++11 is some kind of sick joke
 
Ell
what is this code?
 
it's some kind of compiler option
 
10:15 PM
> char * malloc_routine = "malloc";
lol
 
@Jefffrey worst color theme ever
 
This is the video, btw. If someone is that masochist.
 
 
"What is size_t"
 
@Jefffrey And then came a rider on a pale horse, bearing a video that would end the world, and he did say unto the assembled masses: "Hi guys, my name's Jefffrey."
 
Xeo
10:19 PM
Ohey, I somehow saved 250 bucks this month
sweet.
 
Fucking SFML segmentation faulting
@JerryCoffin Nah, that video is just boring.
 
Gabriel Hasbun Shared on Google+ · 6 months ago
IQ 150+ for. Compiler writers.
Compiler programming: Default values, explicit uninitialization (Part 2)
btw how do I quote things in chat?
 
Ell
>space stuff
> stuff
 
>stuff
> stuff
ha ok
 
I've accidentally set canvas scale factor to 23
And then GPU driver crashed
And then Firefox
And then Unity
And this fucking chat software has massive state issues
 
10:25 PM
You mean it deduplicates when you copy / paste? And the it still deduplicates even though you deleted the first message? Yes. That's a feature
 
No, it displays wrong message if you try to edit too fast
And then the stupid 'flood' protection kicks in
And it's even worse
 
@Xeo Btw., where will your cat be if you go to Unconference
 
Xeo
@Columbo I might not go to Unconference if I can't find a second cat until then.
And if I go, I got my friend (who's living in the flat below mine) to look after them
@CatPlusPlus It only shows the wrong message for you, though
Refresh page to fix
alright, time for sleeps
g'night
 
@Xeo Guten Abend, Gute Nacht...
 
@Xeo Good night.
 
user3790646
10:46 PM
@Xeo Boa noite
 
Ell
Guten gluten
 
maj ram
 
Got to wake up in 7 hours for god only knows why
 

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