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7:00 PM
After credits, there is a scene, the red faced dude on a throne. Same one was in the Guardians of the Galaxy. Who is he?
 
^ Robin from HIMYM
 
@Borgleader Yes. But she has milfier qualities in the Avengers film. :)
 
@wilx I somehow doubt that (nsfw)
 
@Borgleader The Avengers film is older and so is she.
 
If the film is older, than the actress would be younger at the time it was made
 
7:07 PM
blasphemy!
 
@Borgleader Ooops. Brain fart. :D
 
That was the problem, bash ./foo.sh worked; sh foo.sh didn't. — Chad Brewbaker 1 min ago
gosh
 
@Borgleader yummy
 
@sehe IYO should i try to construct a proper AST directly or should I do the same thing as in the spirit calc example and have a factor with a list of "operations" and then create the real AST from that?
 
@Elyse Today I realized that I didn't do any static type checking for return values. It was possible to return "kthxbye"; from main and thus get a type error at runtime :)
 
user1804599
7:15 PM
Nice.
 
Also, if I passed an int argument to a double parameter, the parameter turned out to be an int at runtime :)
Oh well, I hope I've found and fixed all such holes in the type system...
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
woot I have GAWK on my Windows machine.
 
user1804599
perfect.
 
7:24 PM
@ElimGarak I raise you :P
 
Ell
ah emacs, let me insert a unicode code point into you
 
@Ell Kinky /cc @ThePhD
 
@Borgleader Following... :D
 
if anyone of you are fiddling around with 3D graphics and like a refreshener on linear algebra, this is a fairly good resource from my uni: tron.liacs.nl/courses/…
 
@Ell kinky
 
7:28 PM
@ElimGarak I dont have any fancy gifs, so you win :P
 
@Borgleader your choice
 
Theyre both equivalent? Neither is easier?
 
Neither is easier is subjective.
They should be equivalent, no doubt.
The "post-processing" variation has the benefit of making the grammar simpler.
That is a key driving force for me because the grammar can be painful to maintain, or compile slowly
 
Slow compile times should be less of a problem with x3 though right?
 
user1804599
@orlp there are 16: irccloud.com/pastebin/3cBCGVwb
 
7:31 PM
@Borgleader Is that a question? If so, is it even rhetorically relevant :L)
 
@Elyse ctrl + f 0 11
 
user1804599
Each pair of non-blank lines represents a single function.
 
Well we know its compile times are faster with x3, the question is, are they fast enough for that to not become an issue when choosing between the two.
 
oh ok
 
@orlp wtf is that login business?
 
7:33 PM
oh
you have to log in?
I wasn't aware, since I'm always logged in
 
Ell
Welp I'm trying to ouptut ⛵ from ncurses with C
this is going to be a nightmare
 
@Ell Why should that be a problem? The only issue is whether your console can show it.
 
@wilx If it cant, he can always recompile his kernel
 
@Borgleader Huh?
 
@wilx That's a circlejerk here
 
7:40 PM
(Thats wasnt a serious statement, @Ell recompiling his kernel is a running gag)
 
@Borgleader Oh...
 
@Borgleader you decide :)
 
@Borgleader Presumably, after the build, it would be a non-running gag.
 
Oh sh*t. I have bought Metro 2033 Redux on Steam but it wants OpenGL 4.0 which my GC does not seem to support.
 
@MartinJames nice
 
7:42 PM
@wilx GC?
Graphics Card?
 
@Borgleader Yes.
Is there a better acronym?
 
GPU (it mirrors CPU)
 
GPU is almost always preferable to garbage collector :P
4
 
> OpenGL 4.0
Release Date: March 11, 2010
 
ITT wilx's gpu == potato
 
7:44 PM
> OpenGL version string: 3.0 Mesa 10.5.9
I guess it is right.
 
Which card do you have? I'd point you to dxdiag, but mesa...
 
> [ 95.060] (--) RADEON(0): Chipset: "ATI Radeon HD 5670" (ChipID = 0x68d8)
This is Ubuntu.
 
TVs should probably stop existing
Streaming over the internet is the shit
 
> Release Date: January 2010
rip
 
> ATI
rip
 
7:48 PM
@wilx Technically, you should have 4.3-ish support, at the very least 4.1 (DX11 is supported, along with DirectCompute).
Mesa is basically open source halfassery. But yeah, time to upgrade, bby. :P
 
@ElimGarak You cuda asked Gregor
 
Anything in AMD's current line up, unless November shows up something Pascal-y from Nvidia.
 
@ElimGarak Pascal is next year i thought
 
@Borgleader Yup, hence the -y. :D
 
7:51 PM
Well, it might be that the open source drivers are lacking OpenGL 4 support?
 
Ell
@ElimGarak then point him to glxinfo | grep renderer ;)
 
@wilx Can you install AMD drivers?
 
@wilx Well, your version of them, yes. Open source drivers go as far as 4.5 (tested on a GTX 980)
 
Ell
or glxinfo | grep version if that's actually what you want to know
 
> erver glx version string: 1.4
client glx version string: 1.4
GLX version: 1.4
OpenGL core profile version string: 3.3 (Core Profile) Mesa 10.5.9
OpenGL core profile shading language version string: 3.30
OpenGL version string: 3.0 Mesa 10.5.9
OpenGL shading language version string: 1.30
OpenGL ES profile version string: OpenGL ES 3.0 Mesa 10.5.9
OpenGL ES profile shading language version string: OpenGL ES GLSL ES 3.00
Well, I hope that next Ubuntu version brings in newer Mesa/drivers then.
 
7:53 PM
on my laptop (which runs ubuntu), i installed the tested nvidia drivers, and i could do opengl 4.2 (or 4.3 i cant recall) dev, and my laptop is over 3 years old
 
I have tried the AMD drivers like 2 years ago. At some point I reinstalled to the open source ones and kept them. I guess I will try those if I get desperate enough.
@Borgleader This PC is older.
 
@wilx Well the cards are relatively the same age, yours is from Jan 2010, mine (gtx 460m) is Sep 2010.
 
Have you tried Black Mesa? :P
 
@ElimGarak :D
 
@ElimGarak haha, fat chance
 
7:56 PM
ahahaha
Still love this part.
 
Stop talking about HL, it reminds me that they havent released HL3
:(
 
> >tfw Feature Support: OpenGL 2.1
 
@Borgleader at least it's confirmed
 
@thecoshman "confirmed"
 
@wilx why not propriatry drivers?
 
8:00 PM
because er mah gerd the non-freedom
 
Ell
I wish nvidia would do open source drivers already
then I could actually fix my ttys
 
#ifndef GISubProcessor_hpp
#define GISubProcessor_hpp

#include <stdio.h>

#endif /* GISubProcessor_hpp */
 
Ell
or someone else could, at least :P
 
@Ell you have ttys?
 
Thanks, XCode, stdio.h will be invaluable to me.
 
8:01 PM
@Ell Just use the normal one
 
Ell
@Puppy the proprietary one?
 
@thecoshman Something was broken at some point in time. :) IIRC it was required Xorg version that was older than that available after upgrade of Ubuntu. Thought it is probably fixed since it really is like 2 years since that time.
 
The proprietary Nvidia driver works gr8.
 
Ell
I do use them, but they are a pain when I want to do certain things
like KMS
and virtual consoles
 
@Ell ignore him, he knows nothing about linux :P
 
Ell
8:02 PM
@thecoshman yeah good point :P
 
eh
 
Ell
He can't even install ubuntu
;)
 
if the proprietary drivers are broken, nVidia should fix them
 
Ell
I mean cmon puppy
 
there's no reason why they should use FOSS drivers
 
8:02 PM
@AndyProwl Perla
 
Ell
There is a reason
 
Open source drivers are basically created by inspecting state set by proprietary drivers on API calls and then reverse "engineering", so it's like trying to reinvent a wheel with subpar materials. The only legitimate open drivers are from Intel, because they do documentation dumps on each tick-tock. :P
 
Ell
@Puppy well they aren't fixing them
@ElimGarak Not really
amd develops open source drivers
 
AMD has 18% of the market share. Nvidia has their thumb up their ass still.
 
Ell
@ElimGarak 18% is still a lot of people to develop drivers for
You can't suggest that they can be just discounted
also is it seriously that low now?
 
8:05 PM
@Ell Which is a legitimate complaint but totally different from "They should develop FOSS drivers"
 
Those are numbers from a month ago. It is good that they're involved with it, but it doesn't really make a "dent in the universe"
 
Ell
@Puppy right, but if they were FOSS, then they wouldn't have to fix them
 
you're right; they'd have to fix them twice because of all the bugs introduced by FOSS people because they don't know the proprietary hardware well enough
 
I am not shitting on AMD, I'm shitting on Nvidia (if it's not directly obvious)
 
8:07 PM
ITT puppy doesn't understand FOSS
 
Ell
^
@Puppy Is that how you think open source works? :V
 
@Jefffrey :D STACCA STACCAA
 
Ell
Like I could just put anything I want into the linux mainline and it would be distributed
 
apparently so, everyone can just throw code at anything and it's sent to everyone without it ever being checked
 
being checked doesn't make it bug-free.
 
Ell
8:09 PM
@Puppy also why do you think they wouldn't know the hardware well enough?
 
and you're assuming that nVidia has the resources to go and check them
 
you realise they wouldn't have to
 
@Ell I dunno, because it's completely proprietary and contains a bunch of nVidia's internal secrets?
 
Ell
Do you think AMD driver developers know less because the driver is open source?
 
it can be FOSS and they just ignore community input
 
Ell
8:09 PM
@Puppy you don't get it man
 
well, sure, you can do, but then there's no point in FOSS.
 
Ell
if something is open source it doesn't mean it is made by the community
 
Nvidia is basically younger than me. The only reason they are on top is because they were the only ones for a while, after 3dfx went the way of the dinosaur. Intel and AMD always pushed each other in the right direction, AMD's upgrade of x86 to _64 basically kinda saved Intel when they did their Itanium stint. Nvidia has done nothing but be complete assholes, passively and actively.
 
@Elyse Beautiful arrow :D
 
Ell
@Puppy yes there is
 
8:10 PM
well AMD was good for a while, just slipped some how vOV
any way, time for movie of some sorts.
 
Ell
The community can make changes for themselves, and track nvidias drivers
you can incorporate what nvidia provides and pick and choose what else you want in there
 
sure, they can do, but that just means that the implementations will diverge over time and the FOSS community would have to expend a bunch of time and effort adding in nVidia's changes that may be completely contrary to their opinions and objectives.
 
Aug 10 at 18:59, by Morwenn
Loungers change opinions. They just don't admit it.
 
not to mention that the FOSS guys will make like ten different forks all heading in different directions
and a bunch of internal forks too.
 
@AndyProwl I love it for some reason. It has that amateur vibe to it, even though they were probably both very skilled hackers.
 
Ell
8:14 PM
@Puppy why do you think this?
@Morwenn I wish they would
 
because I observed exactly that outcome with LLVM
oh, and OpenSSL, or is it OpenSSH, too
 
Ell
llvm have 10 different forks heading in different directions?
 
problem with OpenSSL? Cue 10000 separate forks cleaning up the code in different ways.
@Ell More than that, I believe.
 
Ell
@Puppy does anyone use them?
 
So what?
 
8:15 PM
most of them are internal I think
 
Ell
also what is the issue of forks?
 
@Jefffrey Probably yeah
 
but they don't tend to upstream their changes so trunk LLVM hardly gets anything done on it
not that trunk LLVM is really getting better anyway, those guys are nuts.
 
Ell
@Puppy well, why did these people fork llvm?
Maybe their changes aren't relevant to the original llvm
that is a common reason for forking (different goals for ex)
 
8:18 PM
because they had their own needs or didn't agree with the direction of trunk.
who cares?
 
Ell
so why is it a problem that their changes aren't going into mainline?
 
@Jefffrey Because UB means an exception can be thrown maybe?
 
because that leaves hardly anybody who's doing any serious work on mainline.
 
user1804599
@Morwenn UB also means it can violate const-correctness.
 
@Morwenn I'm not sure I see your point
Can you point it out for me?
:v
 
8:19 PM
if LLVM were a proprietary project, and they just hired those devs, they'd just set a direction and get all the dev effort in there.
 
> The parameter i is required to be a valid array index.
 
user1804599
So, I need a JavaScript floating-point library that can handle values ranging from 0.000000000000000000000001 to 1000000000000000000000000.
 
@Morwenn Ok, go on...
 
This leads to UB if the precondition is vioolated. That means that an implementation is allowed to throw an exception if they do bound-checking.
So it can't be declared noexcept.
 
Ell
@Puppy you imply that you think that no open source developers are paid
 
8:21 PM
no
I'm suggesting that, as a group, they're incapable of maintaining focus or quality and have little motivation to pull together to achieve something
 
@Morwenn I see.
 
user1804599
And preferably binary, but all libraries use decimal representations.
 
Doesn't UB also allow noexcept to be ignored?
 
Ell
@Puppy wow
 
@Boni UB allows anything to happen. Even me getting laid.
 
8:24 PM
@Borgleader Haha, no.
 
Nope
 
@Morwenn ☑ burned ☐ not burned T_T
 
user1804599
@Boni Yes.
 
UB allows anything within the realm of what's possible to happen
 
user1804599
UB allows everything.
 
8:25 PM
Then, I don't see Morwenn's point.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey s/to/and impossible to/
 
@Elyse s/and impossible //
 
Oh, fucking XCode... Offering .cpp on include. Fuck.
 
Why are you using XCode anyway
 
lol
 
8:26 PM
@Boni If noexcept is violated, it calls std::terminate. If you don't mark it noexcept, it allows implementations to throw exceptions to do for example bounds-checking.
 
@ElimGarak dem "smart" editors
 
@Ell I've yet to observe any other outcome.
 
user1804599
It's "Xcode", not "XCode", you noobs.
 
@AnalPhabet Metal, bby.
 
@Jefffrey sobs in a corner
 
8:26 PM
Smart edit my ass
 
The standard opted for a conservative use of noexcept.
 
@Elyse Xcode feels weird. It's literally up there in the left corner "Xcode" and I ignore it hardcore.
 
user1804599
Fuck unchecked exceptions.
 
Fuck you <3
 
Fuck me
 
user1804599
8:27 PM
They are literally dynamic typing.
 
user1804599
AKA literally Hitler.
 
I like the feeling of returning to Windows after a few weeks on OS X. It's like finding an oasis in the desert.
I am watching the original making of Oblivion on YouTube, gawd, they're so full of shit ahahah
 
@ElimGarak Yes, sir!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Do you still believe explicit monads to be a good alternative to exceptions?
I feel like having that discussion again
I'm starting to change my mind.
 
@Morwenn You can still propagate the exception up the call stack because UB occured. But it does make things more complicated.
 
user1804599
8:29 PM
Encoding error conditions in types is a good thing, because they are checked by the compiler.
 
@Boni Not sure. Anyway, I'm not a reference when it comes to that.
 
user1804599
The reason you like exceptions is because the languages you are used to are not expressive enough to encode error conditions in types in a pleasant way.
 
the whole point of exceptions is that you don't have to encode error conditions in types.
encoding them in types at all is less desirable than not having to bother in the first place.
 
user1804599
And then exceptions are a workaround.
 
I suppose I am pretty much the only person here who is really satisfied with C++ in its current form.
 
8:31 PM
I like it
I like c++14 better.
 
Well yeah, progress included! And so forth to 17 and whatever comes after.
 
Hopefully c++17 will become even smoother
 
I like C++, I think that it could be better but really it didn't go especially badly considering the circumstances they were in.
 
user1804599
And in some language the problem is not even purely syntactical. E.g. constructors can't return errors.
 
8:33 PM
My biggest annoyance are compilers. And MSVC's unwillingness to sacrifice itself for the greater clangish good.
 
user1804599
Can't wait till mainstream type systems become powerful enough to catch bugs such as out-of-bounds indexing and division by zero statically without being cumbersome.
 
user1804599
Dependent typing is the future, and the future starts with type theory!
 
Well they cant, because of all their proprietary extensions and C++/CLI C++/CX
I mean, I guess they could but it would be a lot of work
(Dont get me wrong, I'd love it if they switched to clang)
 
Ell
@Puppy do you think the linux kernel could have been written if it was proprietary?
 
All their proprietary extensions can die in nuclear fire as far as I'm concerned <3
 
8:36 PM
yep
 
user1804599
lol proprietary software
 
Proprietary software is best software. Especially when the property is yours.
 
user1804599
oh wait, I am writing proprietary software right now :v
 
Ell
@ElimGarak modulesss maaan
 
@ElimGarak Watch out, the boogieman RMS under your bed
 
user1804599
8:37 PM
Scala does modules very nicely.
 
@Ell Yeah, we'll probably reconcile quantum & relativistic mechanics before modules happen. :P
 
user1804599
Because modules are objects in Scala.
 
Just like Python.
 
user1804599
And they can implement interfaces.
 
Ell
@Elyse How would you do errors?
with Maybe?
 
user1804599
8:40 PM
Depends on the kind of error.
 
I like when people admit on camera that they don't really do much work and just about when they're going to say "and get paid for it", they stop, think a little... "and... it's cool... Yeah..."
 
user1804599
If the only possible error is "value absent" then Maybe, yes.
 
Ell
Oh wait
I meant
 
user1804599
Otherwise something like Either SomeError SomeValue.
 
Ell
Either
 
user1804599
8:40 PM
Sometimes errors can be prevented by restricting inputs more.
 
user1804599
Some examples:
 
user1804599
head :: [a] -> Maybe a
head :: NonEmptyList a -> a
divide :: Int -> NonZeroInt -> Int
readFile :: String -> Either IOError ByteString
 
user1804599
Totality: preventing bugs since 1940.
 
Aaaaaaah, some of my unit tests passed because I fucked up const-correctness T___T
 
user1804599
Should've written in a language which has only const.
 
8:48 PM
I couldn't have sorted stuff in-place then .___.
 
user1804599
No mutability ∴ no mutability-related bugs.
 
No code. No bugs.
 
user1804599
@Morwenn Wrong, see Mercury.
 
user1804599
Or, for something more accessible, the same trick can be done in Rust.
 
But honestly, that's sad. My unit tests lied to me because I wasn't able to write them correctly.
 
8:51 PM
@Morwenn you need to write tests for your tests
 
er mah gerd
@ElimGarak: Just saw the runabout lose orbit because their engines got knocked out :(
 
@Morwenn 1) Write a failing test first 2) Fix the bug 3) Run the test and confirm that it fixed the bug 4) Profit
would be the tdd way
 
@JohanLarsson The tests failed countless times before passing.
I just realized that they were poorly written.
 
hi
can i use c++ libs when my main file is in c
 
Thank you! Now I ge te problem. — Govan 1 min ago
pearls for swines
@miny1997 not from the main file then
 
8:59 PM
ok, i need an event handler for the click on the mousewheel
mouse btn 3
 
Good luck. Button 3 is always the worst
 
and i don't find code snippets for it
 

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