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user1804599
10:00 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes The Illuminatee
 
Too many people think "the government" is some magical entity that just ticks along in the background and steals your money. These people are fucking retarded.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Again you're jumping to conclusions. For example, Just because there is no mandatory welfare system, it doesn't mean that one doesn't exist
 
The government is people, working, doing things, with some money that we all contribute to ensure that it can keep doing those things.
 
Ell
how the hell do you think charities exist
 
@Ell I've given several examples and you've failed to provide counter-examples for any of them.
 
10:00 PM
@rightfold I'm so happy for you
 
For the health system, just look at the USA to see how well that works out.
 
user1804599
@sehe Me too!
 
Charities are you fucking shitting me
You want to run street lighting like a charity?
You're off your head mate
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The birds
 
Ell
10:01 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Give me a chance at least, there is 4 or more of you and one of me, I can only read and write so fast
 
Voluntary money pooling is not enough
Taxes are mandatory for a reason
 
@Ell I'm stopping now anyway. I have a new rule to try not to get into debates/arguments with people who cannot debate/argue rationally.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Do you think people that can't afford to be educated should be?
 
Yes
If you don't, you're a shitlord
 
@Ell Irrelevant--when you prove him wrong, he just ignores it/you anyway.
 
10:02 PM
Plus you started this conversation with the admission that many people don't agree with you, which doesn't fill me with confidence that I may simply be missing something.
 
Ell
How much of the country percentage wise do you think believes that?
 
@Ell Just because no one has seen utopia, doesn't mean it couldn't happen if we just stopped doing this silly democracy thing
 
@Ell Basic education? Like reading and writing and counting and speaking? Yes...... It is in our best interests for everybody to have a basic education. They don't need free PhDs or anything, but...
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Right. I agree
 
10:02 PM
@Ell Er, like 95% of it?
 
Ell
I'm sure the majority of the UK agrees
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Exactly
 
The state school system is hugely popular
 
@Ell (hint, just ignore one and carry on, or focus on one and carry on)
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit So why wouldn't 95% of the country voluntarily pool money to do this?
 
@Ell Except that bloo bloo I don't want to pay for it because it's not voluntray
 
Ell
10:03 PM
versus being forced
 
Granted, that's mostly because it's free at use, and you go to jail if you don't use it
@Ell Because not 95% of the country can afford to...
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The percentage of people who can afford will do it, won't they?
 
You are basically arguing for the entire population of the United Kingdom to suddenly be trusted to pick the right balance of personal contributions in order to fund a monumentally complex system.
 
@Ell it's ok. We'll just force our slaves to voluntarily pay. Because we have their jobs. And the justice system is paid by us too.
 
Richest people are usually least inclined to pay :v
 
10:04 PM
I'd love to see you try to implement that, I really would.
@Ell Lol, really? The percentage of people who can afford it are presently doing their best to pay as little tax as possible via various evasion schemes. Doesn't bode well for voluntarily paying for all our government services, now, does it?
 
"School's closing down kids. Not enough people paid to sustain it this year"
 
user1804599
Every kid happy.
 
I'm going to say it: Ell is literally Hitler.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit if that's the case then I'm sure your 95% figure is wrong
 
Ell
10:05 PM
if so many people want to fund the poor - then why are they all trying their best to avoid it?
 
Because bloo bloo taxes
 
@Ell That figure had nothing to do with the number of people who can afford it. Seriously, are you on drugs or something?
@Ell wtf
 
Ell
If they do want to fund the poor, then they won't avoid it and the poor will be funded
 
user1804599
I propose a better rule: every citizen is required to pay taxes, except me.
 
oh my god
you are so adorably naive
 
10:06 PM
Either Ell has not revised his standpoints since he was 16, and only just found out, or he has suddenly learned to Power Troll(TM) the whole lounge.
Achievement Unlocked
 
12 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
No no you see it'll be lolbertarian utopia and everyone will live in harmony because
 
Ell
@sehe it's tough for me, I'm not used to debating in this format :S
 
user1804599
And the fucking king pays a million times as much as other citizens to catch up.
 
@Ell Or thinking about anything ever, apparently!
 
10:06 PM
I bet there's a RationalWiki page about this
 
RationalWiki is a terrible site.
 
oh there we go, the dota update finally rolled in
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't see the problem in that argument? If I want to fund the poor I'll fund the poor. If I don't, I wont. Seeing as 95% of britain want to, they will if they can afford it
 
two days late but hey
 
Ell
^what is wrong with this argument?
 
user1804599
10:07 PM
Is it from Rational Software?
 
@Ell Because they won't if they're not forced to
Thinking otherwise is naive
 
Nah. It's some shitty copy of Encyclopaedia Dramatica.
 
user1804599
Oh, like Uncyclopedia.
 
Or well, it tries to be anyway.
 
I don't see any ED in RW but okay
 
10:07 PM
@Ell He said 95% think everyone should be educated. He didn't say 95% would be willing to pay for it.
 
browse more
 
It's p spot on on the subjects I've looked at
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus Why not? if they want to? I don't have to be force to do something I want to do, and I'm sure you don't either
 
@Ell Some research for you to do: read up on the measured consequences of the privatisation of our rail networks in the late 90s. Just our rail networks. Go look up what happened in the aftermath. Then imagine the same happening to every single public service, including our spy agencies, our military, our basic utilities, our police force, our legal system, our diplomatic corps, ....
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit shut it :) You're not giving him any chance. You know how it is talking to extremists; you don't completely ridicule their values and beliefs. You just offer them perspective and make them reconsider their old beliefs.
 
10:08 PM
or maybe you're biased
 
@sehe Or you just behead the fuckers
 
@Ell Look at how many people complain about taxes
Also SEP
 
@CatPlusPlus Right. That's why the Salvation Army, Catholic Relief Services, Lutheran Social Services, etc., ceased to exist centuries ago.
 
Diffusion of responsibility
 
user1804599
When ISIL takes over the world, everything will be fine.
 
Ell
10:08 PM
@CatPlusPlus then surely they don't want to do it?
 
@Ell I said 95% of Britain probably think that the poor should be educated. That is very, very, very, different from saying that 95% of Britain are prepared to take on that financial burden themselves.
 
@JerryCoffin That's nowhere near 95%
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, I see that now. Thank you for pointing this out
(no sarcasm)
 
@Ell The fact that laziness and selfishness are natural traits to an extent and that power corrupts. This mix quickly ensures that the most powerful (=wealthy) will force the other groups to act selfish too.
Did you ever read 1984?
 
@CatPlusPlus 95% of what?
 
user1804599
10:09 PM
I think I will not allow f >> g << h.
 
user1804599
It should be illegal.
 
Ell
@sehe 1984 is positively anti-state in my opinion :P
 
Besides finances, there is the matter of oversight. If you want private companies to run everything, which company gets to be our spies? Which one our military? Maybe we should create an oversight organisation to make sure they all talk to each other and act legally. Oh, yeah, so we'll need to include the justice system in that too. Then it probably makes sense to centralise the way incoming payments are handled.
 
@Ell Did you read it?
 
10:09 PM
Congratulations, you just dissolved government then re-invented it.
 
Ell
@sehe Yeah
 
@Rapptz lol okay
 
There's a family guy episode about this.
 
FG is terrible
 
Ell
10:10 PM
genuine voluntary transactions are inherently mutually beneficial
 
That's entirely subjective. I find it entertaining.
 
@JerryCoffin Population that pays taxes
 
3 mins ago, by Ell
^what is wrong with this argument?
 
@Ell Yes, of course they are. But, in practice, that makes no difference.
 
@Ell ^ So, can you see my argument? Power corrupts. Freedom doesn't naturally lead to good. Only very locally, and globalization is an undeniable fact of life.
 
10:11 PM
@Ell You must be a buttcoiner too
 
lol, Cat's a bloodhound.
 
fruity velociraptors drawn in pink ink are inherently appealing
(to 5 year old girls)
@CatPlusPlus Nah. He once felt bad about (not?) suggesting those to someone, IIRC
 
Ell
@sehe Power corrupts for sure
 
There is way too much backstory to go over here; really you need a four-year degree in social studies (with a few psychology modules in your free time) if you want to actually understand in detail why we all do what we do. Suffice it to say, though, that there is a damn good reason that every sovereign state on Earth has or attempts to have a central government of some sort, and has done for hundreds if not thousands of years.
 
@Ell It's just not gonna work. For that reason. People aren't going to voluntarily share it
 
10:12 PM
As I said before, it's not just a mad co-incidence.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's the work of the lizardpeople.
 
But if we just get rid of the government there will be nobody in power and everything will work out!
 
Ell
@sehe I don't understand this - anarchy by definition has no ruler whereas a state has rulers, people that have inherently more power than other
 
@Ell utopia has no flaws!
 
Ell
In the current system, people in uniform are allowed to kill
 
10:13 PM
No they're not
 
Yes, everyone has equal power in anarchy.
 
You really only need to look at countries such as Zimbabwe and (to a much lesser extent IMO than other people think, but..) Russia to see how a pseudo-public government that's in reality backed by private corporations results in mass pain and poverty for your citizens.
 
Especially the cripples.
 
None of this is surprising or hidden.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit right, but this isn't true anarchy
 
10:14 PM
Out of curiosity. What do you think of sales tax?
 
Ell
real anarchy hasn't existed at many times
 
true anarchy is a pipe dream
 
Ell
but when it has, it has been good.
 
@Ell Wait, you want anarchy now? That's entirely different.
 
Because it's impossible
 
10:14 PM
@Rapptz I'm honestly not sure.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Whaaaat? No it's not? I'm arguing for anarcho-capitalism
 
Like true communism or whatever. People are greedy fucks and power vacuums don't last unfilled very long
 
user1804599
Why am I reading a Wikipedia article about phallic architecture?
 
@Ell For what?! LOL
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit voluntaryism
 
10:15 PM
@Ell you misspelled dipshitism*
 
user1804599
Oh nevermind, I'm not reading it. Just looking at the images.
 
@rightfold gay
 
Ell
Voluntaryism (or sometimes voluntarism), is a libertarian philosophy which holds that all forms of human association should be voluntary. The principle most frequently used to support voluntaryism is the non-aggression principle (NAP). It is closely associated with, and sometimes used synonymously with, the anarcho-capitalist philosophy. Many voluntaryists base their thinking on the ideas of voluntaryist philosophers Murray Rothbard and Robert LeFevre. Rothbard maintained, first, that every government "presumes to establish a compulsory monopoly of defense (police and courts) service over some...
 
~*~*~ in my make believe world ~*~*~
 
@rightfold because you will visit the new Steiner exhibition in De Kunsthal form next Saturday
 
user1804599
10:16 PM
> Buildings interpreted as phallic architecture
Empire State Building
 
user1804599
wat
 
The FairTax is a proposal to reform the federal tax code of the United States. It would replace all federal income taxes (including the alternative minimum tax, corporate income taxes, and capital gains taxes), payroll taxes (including Social Security and Medicare taxes), gift taxes, and estate taxes with a single broad national consumption tax on retail sales. The Fair Tax Act (H.R. 25/S. 122) would apply a tax, once, at the point of purchase on all new goods and services for personal consumption. The proposal also calls for a monthly payment to all family households of lawful U.S. residents as...
 
I can sniff lolbertarians from a light year away
 
user1804599
@sehe I probably won't.
 
:)
 
10:16 PM
@Ell You need to read that article a little more closely. This time, pay special attention to those little squiggles of black because they form letters and those contain information about what the article is saying
 
The fact that people invent real words for their fairytales doesn't make them real.
Heck, it doesn't even make them worthless.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Do you think this is productive for the conversation? :/
 
Sales tax could probably go, but then again I'm not an economist
 
@Ell It's about as productive as any of the fairy magic you've been spewing :)
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit anarchy means no rulers
 
10:17 PM
US sales tax is way more complicated and fucked up than EU though
 
@rightfold It's large and pillar-like?
 
@Ell Your definition of "rulers" is impossibly over-confined
 
@Ell no rulers means you're deluded
 
Sales tax is used to fund the local government here.
 
Apparently you think "ruler" = "someone with a title and a car parking space"
 
10:18 PM
@Ell How do you guarantee that?
 
@Ell Which makes it impossible
 
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes but come on it's not phallic :v
 
Would your hypothetical "national spy agency" private company just magically run itself? With no board of directors, and no bosses at any level?
How would such an organisation function, in your view?
 
I think he means "no rulers" ~= "everybody will be nice now, mkay". Play together, let each-other speak, take turns playing.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes this is the hard part
 
10:19 PM
Oh.
 
This is the impossible part
 
And how about the military? Chain of command has been shown time and time again throughout history to be an integral and necessary part of any effective army. How do you propose implementing an army or navy or air force in an anarchical society?
 
@CatPlusPlus That's pretty hard
 
NP hard
 
1 min ago, by rightfold
@R.MartinhoFernandes but come on it's not phallic :v
40 secs ago, by Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes this is the hard part
 
10:19 PM
inb4 "Well obviously the military will have to have leaders" Congratulations, you just made your army generals the rulers of your nation.
 
Weirdest plinks.
 
:D
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit in my ideal world there are no countries in the first place because there is no state. Wars are fought by countries, not individuals. Most soldiers don't want to kill people but only do because it's their job. That aside I think it's reasonable that militias would form
 
My city has this
 
Ell
10:21 PM
spanish anarchist militias played a large part in defeating franco
 
"there is no state. Wars are fought by countries"
 
@StackedCrooked wow
 
@Ell Yes, and then they lived happily ever after in anarchy.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit My definition of rulers is the state basically. People using physical force or fraud or other kinds of coercion
 
@Ell In your view, what is a country if not the set of individuals within it?
 
Ell
10:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes They were happy in anarchy
 
6 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
~*~*~ in my make believe world ~*~*~
 
Ell
they descended into statism :P
 
I already said, it's wholly natural for animals to form social groups, so if you want to dissolve all countries then that's great but they'll start right back up again. (Probably because subgroup A wasn't happy with the rise to power of de facto leader of subgroup B. Fucking anarchists.)
 
~*~*~ i can make people think what i want them to think ~*~*~
 
10:22 PM
Are you trying to say people gravitate towards the unhappy bits?
 
> anarchist militias
Not. Even. Kidding.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes because people took charge over them, whether they wanted to or not
 
That anarchy is the unstable state of a monostable system?
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit okay, I think country was a bad word to use here
 
10:23 PM
@Ell Sounds like fair game in anarchy.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why?
 
@Ell I think all of your words were bad words to use here.
 
@Ell Because this is what happens
god
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus And you think it's a good thing?
 
@Ell Because there is no rule that says you can't just do that.
 
10:23 PM
@Ell Because everyone can do what they want. What are you going to do, tell them not to take charge? What are you, their ruler??
 
It doesn't matter what I think
It ALWAYS happens
 
Oh yeah.
 
@CatPlusPlus Wouldn't need to be. Probably wouldn't need to be even close to that. They manage to distribute money much more efficiently than governments, and tax reduction would reduce the number of people who need help anyway.
 
Next presidential election in the US is 2016.
 
+USA
The next presidential election is in fact before 2016.
 
10:24 PM
@CatPlusPlus It's kinda like gravity.
It cannot be escaped.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit When is that then?
 
@Rapptz 2007
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes In anarchism it is illegitimate to use aggression or any kind of coercion, so it's not "fair game", no
 
@Rapptz There's one going on in Brazil right now.
 
I don't know when election is
 
Ell
10:25 PM
who it is enforced by is a different matter
but it doesn't make it "fair game"
 
I vote every year.
 
@Ell The universe doesn't enforce that.
 
@Ell Who enforces this?
@Ell Lol "a different matter"
 
Or well, I plan to. I haven't missed a year yet.
 
Ell
10:25 PM
it's only fair game in the same way it's fair game for the state to do whatever they want
 
It's the entire point of this discussion and the reaosn that your proposal is inherently broken
 
@Ell hehehe. In anarchism, everybody can do what he wants. Consequently they will only want what is best for everyone. #Not. #Even. #Kidding.
 
@Ell Who it is enforced by is the whole point. It's not "another matter". It's the exact matter you have been discussing.
 
@Ell The state cannot "do whatever they want"
 
27 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
It'll work because
 
10:26 PM
@sehe of course!
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit who is stopping them?
 
@Ell Fuck your rules! Anarchy ftw!
 
@Rapptz I would have thought you miss every 2 years
 
Ell
Anarchy means no rulers! not no rules!
2
 
It's always this with libertarians and buttcoiners and shit
 
10:26 PM
Nah. I vote in local elections too.
 
Every single important detail handwaved away
 
@Ell Who makes the rules?
 
@Ell The legal system? The people and the people's representatives? I guess you must have been asleep when almost the entirety of the Arab world rose up and toppled their leaders because they weren't happy with the behaviour of their government.
 
I think people spontaneously spawn rulers by themselves when they're left without
 
@CatPlusPlus Apparently October 2015 for Poland.
 
10:27 PM
@Ell the people. elections. the military (if you're in Egypt) etc.
 
4 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
That anarchy is the unstable state of a monostable system?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Kevin does.
 
Bacon. Kevin Bacon. Now it all makes sense
 
Because who needs to actually think about their utopias where everything will work just because they believe in it
 
in any situation, I think, someone is bound to try to take the lead, and someone is bound to be willing to listen
 
10:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sometimes it's just Vlad
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes does that mean the same thing?
 
@AlexM. Yes
 
oh
 
@AlexM. That is indeed how we have evolved. Not all animals work this way, but most mammals do. It's in our makeup.
 
They changed the @ reply thing.
 
10:28 PM
Power vacuums don't last very long!
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes The people make the rules
 
It shows gravatars now.
Cool.
 
Ell
people would rather be not fighting than fighting
 
@Rapptz Really?
 
Ell
and the people enforce the rules
 
Handwave faster and you'll generate electricity
 
Ell
really, I'm exhausted
 
@AlexM. Yes. A monostable system has a stable and an unstable state. The unstable state changes to the stable state if left alone. Action is necessary to change from the stable state.
 
Ell
this explains it briefly youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o
 
10:28 PM
3 hours ago, by Alex M.
like, 2 hours old
 
@Ell Well, they made this rule that we'll have a government.
 
Yes we've seen the video of more handwaving
 
Deal with it.
 
lol
 
@Ell Right. That's called a democracy.
 
Ell
10:29 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No it's not?
 
@Ell Yes it is.
 
Btw @Ell do you vote?
 
Ell
@Rapptz Yes
 
I always wonder if people who complain about the government vote.
 
I vote for ANARCHY
 
10:30 PM
Most seem like they don't.
@Ell Cool.
 
Ell
Man I got lost as to which reply I'm on
 
@Ell Ell, we don't really need explanation. We really don't. We know what anarchy is. And we know that the ideals make sense. We really do. And no, you can't use this to rationalize away taxes money theft.
 
See the problem with politics in the UK is that most of the people voting our government into power are dumb and uninformed as fucking shit. And most of those don't have the benefit of the Lounge to straighten them out. It's sad that the one who does is not making the most of this privilege.
 
If I was an anarchist, I wouldn't vote.
 
Everyone in my government is an idiot so I don't really care
 
10:30 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes were. Oh sorry, you can use your own grammar of course
 
I should see if Pirate Party still runs up
 
@Ell It doesn't really matter since we're all telling you the exact same thing
 
pirate party got very few votes here this year
 
@CatPlusPlus Everybody is an idiot. It's all about voting for the less worse.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, and the people who could be knowledgeable on the subject decide not to vote because they feel like 'everyone in the government is stupid anyway' or 'my vote doesn't count as much' etc.
 
10:31 PM
@Rapptz Yeah
 
It's a shitty way to vote that ultimately doesn't change anything
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes TIL a new term then
 
@Ell just call it quits. You can still have your beliefs, and the extra knowledge (which is reassuring) that other people care too
 
it's like a little bit of Imposter Syndrome in there
 
Esp when every single party turns out to be shit
And all the promises they made before elections are worthless
 
10:32 PM
Of course
 
That's why you're supposed to ignore those :p
 
Unless they're terrible promises I guess.
 
I never understand why people vote based on promises then get uppity about them not being carried out, be it due to circumstance or whatever. Vote for personality and views on life, surely.
Again, dumb as fuck, I suppose.
 
'I promise to ruin this country in 2 years flat'
 
10:33 PM
1 hour ago, by sehe
Jens Weller used the Bearded Lambda to kick off his 0xBADC0DE talk at BoostCon
 
People are dumb
 
@sehe ah, I'm always late
 
@AndyProwl Hoe later op de avond, hoe schooner het volk
yesterday, by sehe
May 20 '13 at 16:59, by Cat Plus Plus
Fact #1: people are dumb
 
Truth
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit leaders in this sense are different to the rulers I mean in anarchism. People voluntarily join the army
 
10:34 PM
@sehe agreed
 
All Hail Google Translate
And then they organize themselves in small cells and they find out that the opponent doesn't. Oops.
Well, you can still fight bloody guerilla over the next centuries
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The problem is that politicians just offer whatever gets them the most votes
 
@Ell FACT Politicians have exactly zarroo ideals.
 
Ell
they choose a policy that pleases most people
whether it is good or bad
 
Ell
10:36 PM
@sehe I think I will
I'll try to remember not to bring it up next time :L
 
Yeah by all means don't listen and stick to that nonsense
 
@Ell Depends. :) (Maybe if you make it a little less one-sided you will find we're not all opposed to anarchistic ideals much at all)
 
@sehe getting votes doesn't count?
@sehe I started watching the video, but then I realized I already know what bad code is.
 
@Ell FACT. These things are indisputable. It's this pragmatism of politicians that anarchists will easily root out. Presumably by anarchist militiae who kill anyone who acts political
@StackedCrooked I've heard him talk in the background. Not been distracted from this impahtant discussion though
 
Ell
@sehe I try not to be one sided. the sarcasm and ridicule makes me a little uncomfortable though
it makes me much less likely to back down for some reason
 
10:40 PM
@Ell That's basically what IS is. Working well for you, is it?
 
IS is working for Ell?
wow
 
Nah, too real
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't understand your point?
Can you just rephrase it?
 
Muh office day tomorrow, gotta go to sleep
 
10:41 PM
@Ell I'm watching that with s/rights arbitration agencies/governments/, and so on, and it actually is still consistent :|
 
Well today. Stupid midnight
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes funny, that
@CatPlusPlus night
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But it's better! Magic!
 
why would a monitor have 3 HDMI ports?
 
@CatPlusPlus wut
 
10:42 PM
or rather, more than one
 
@AlexM. So that you may plug in three devices.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's friiiiiiiiiiiiiiiday
 
and you switch between them using the input controls?
 
@AlexM. Convenience. Not everybody enjoys fucking about replacing cables every time they want to switch from one machine to another, or from a PC to a DVD player or to a games console or..
 
yeah that makes sense
nvm, dumb question
 
10:42 PM
@AlexM. Yes...
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not sure. many rights arbitration agencies can coexist whereas many governments can't alongside each other
 
@AlexM. Yes.
@CatPlusPlus oooh yay
 
@Ell But they do. :|
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit a bit of a stretch that. IS doesn't want to achieve anarchism, AFAIK. They might appear partly anarchist just because they're not a state (yet)
 
You just have to look at the world around you.
Or easier! Watch the video.
It mentions that.
 
10:43 PM
too real
 
@sehe Yeah I was referring to the fact of the matter as it is now rather than whatever their intentions are
I agree they do not share @Ell's vision
 
Good. I think you were close to the mark with your "Ell is literally hitler" conjecture :)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit was in Nottingham today, if you wanted to know
 
@OMGtechy where were you if I didn't want to know?
it's always nice to have a choice so thanks for that
 
10:45 PM
@sehe They consider themselves a government, and show every intent of forcing those who live in the areas they conquer to live by the rules they impose.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I was in Castle Meadows retail park. And yes, how good of me to ask if you wanted to know whilst telling you. I'm cool like that.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. They're like anarchist militiae!
 
@OMGtechy You didn't ask whether I wanted to know. You indicated that, if I wanted to know, then you were in Nottingham. Unfortunately you did not specify where you'd be if I didn't want to know. :(
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit if you didn't want to know, I was not in Nottingham :P
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess that's true
Hmmm
 
10:47 PM
@OMGtechy ok :)
 
@sehe Quite the contrary--they don't seem to be anarchist at all. In fact, their very existence (or doing anything similar to what they're doing) is pretty much a polar opposite of anything of which an anarchist could possibly approve.
 
Where did you go, PC World?
DFS perhaps
or Costa - I think that's the one with the Costa island
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit your powers are great...PC World haha
 
went to Costa in the train station though
d-d-d-d-double kill
 
10:48 PM
the McDonalds and Sainsbury's opposite are both places I very regularly go
 
My partner went to Sainsburys
 
have they finished all the work at the station now?
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I also think that rights arbitration agencies can represent the law that particular people want better
 
We almost went to McDonalds
And yes, I didn't see anything. Then again, I wouldn't see a crane 1 metre in front of me.
 
@OMGtechy I'm glad to hear you avoided that.
 
10:49 PM
@JerryCoffin I was joking. My point being that anarchist militia is the best oxymoron I spotted all night. And it sums up the problem.
2
 
@Ell parse error - try again / cancel
 
@JerryCoffin I'm not :(
 
@Ell Unless they're too small to survive in the market.
 
Ell
@sehe Maybe I misunderstand what a militia is :)
 
@Ell Also, it's still pretty much a government...
 
Ell
10:49 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes In which case it turns into a government
 
You just renamed it.
 
@Ell I think you misunderstand what the following are: society, government, state, country, anarchy, democracy, militia, money, tax, services, voluntary, free will, responsibility, realistic, practicality
 
Getting rid of a government, calling it something else and then making one does not mean you do not have a government. Governments are strongly typed, you are using a typedef.
 
@Ell It's a way to get someone else to conform to your sense of freedom
@Ell The ignore button is there for you
 
Ell
@sehe My apologies
 
10:51 PM
That's my $0.02 anyway.
 
41 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
Congratulations, you just dissolved government then re-invented it.
 
@Ell I mean, for your perusal. You can even plonk me if it helps you. I don't mind
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't think I did. A state is a monopoly - rights arbitration agencies exist in parallel
 
@OMGtechy Typedef does not give you strongly typed things
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's still the same thing :P
 
Ell
10:51 PM
I do agree that governments coexist on a global level
 
as in, an int is the same as a typedef'd int.
 
@Ell Who pays them? What's the difference in services between the multiple agencies? How do they interact or not interact? How do they co-exist? How do they compete?
 
@sehe Actually, in the early days of the US, militia were often fairly anarchic. Voluntary membership, minimal leadership, nearly no command structure, and actually quite effective.
 
Ell
Which to me says that I have the freedom to go to whatever country I want to follow the laws by
which is certainly more free than a worldwide monopoly
 
10:52 PM
@Ell A state is a monopoly within itself. Yes. How is that different with a RAA?
 
Or are you just proposing having two or more governments running within a state for no reason
Suddenly, two states
that's called devolution
 
@Ell Which is certainly wildly unlike what you have today.
 
@JerryCoffin It's what the right to bear arms stems from.
Sep 12 at 0:33, by aclarke
the gun lobby forget this part of the constitution: ".....(since) a well-regulated militia is essential to the security of the state .... (blah blah right to bear arms)"
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm trying to say that having lots of countries to go to is like having different RAA to choose
 
Ah.
So what's the actual difference then?
 
Ell
10:53 PM
And seeing as the natural state of the word is anarchy
 
@sehe Unfortunately, after Toby Ziegler pointed that out in 2001, the Supreme Court passed an interpretation of that passage supporting the gun lobby.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The countries will be much smaller and you have much more reason to be unhappy and look around all the time
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not sure.
 
@sehe Sort of, but only sort of. The right to bear arms really stems from a bunch of guys who started a country by revolting against a legal government, and deciding to ensure that the same could happen again if necessary.
 
Ell
You have certainly made a good point
 
10:54 PM
@sehe And then maybe they'll form unions and become big countries that appropriate a whole continent's name to refer to themselves.
 
Ell
and the 2 issues I'm most unsure of in anarchy are national defence and policing
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Magic!
 
@JerryCoffin That's nicely put.
 
And then they'll break apart again, as if it's some sort of cycle
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I seem to hear the description of post-feodal Europe. (Well modulo some parallel historical revolutions)
 
10:55 PM
@sehe (see link above)
oh shit it's down
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, fail.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I've seen it (This video does not exist though)
 
> Sorry
This video does not exist.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Provisionally starred, because you'll fix the link :)
 
10:56 PM
@OMGtechy You want to eat at McDonalds? Why? If you really want to commit suicide, why not do it some way that's at least quick and painless?
 
@sehe too late
 
@JerryCoffin because I can enjoy eating the food whilst it happens
 
jumping ship
because I can
 
it's not quite the video I was thinking of, but it'll do
 
Here, for those of you who actually want to see the video.
 
10:57 PM
@sehe If he doesn't it gets starred as annoying plink bait.
 
@OMGtechy I enjoy eating food too. Food and McDonalds have nearly nothing in common though.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit come on fix the text? before it's too late again
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree that you've made a valid point. I just feel that current governments hold a monopoly too large to be considered anarchy
 
@sehe don't know what to put
 
Ell
"too large" is certainly arbitrary
 
10:58 PM
 
Ell
and I don't really have an answer.
 
the video I wanted had like blobs and stuff
 
@Ell it's anarchy! You mean, it's not perfect? Welcome to planet Earth
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ok.
 
i'll keep looking for a bit
 

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