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8:00 AM
I still need to tie a few loose ends from the move.
And the office is across the street.
 
@Xeo I just noticed he was bored ... The man needs something to focus on I guess :p
Damn I'ld like to have the office across the street too...
 
user1646075
@R.MartinhoFernandes heh. of course! I was coming from a position that this is acceptable even for reasonable people, for cathartic purposes. also a coping mechanism.
 
user1646075
anyway, enough. Hello @Rerito!
 
Hi ! (I can't stop putting spaces before it has become a reflex)
 
@GuruAdrian About what?
 
user1804599
8:07 AM
@Rapptz fail
 
I'm excited about the new office, about taking some vacation, about my friend getting a car and having offered to provide it for telescope expeditions.
 
user1646075
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, you are concerned enough to put in this effort here now, so i'm concerned about your feels.
 
Compared with the weekend I'm feeling great.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey autovivification
 
It seems that jalf has his reasons to be so sensitive. I don't think (and I hope) no one intended to offend him
 
user1804599
8:09 AM
@Jefffrey use use warnings; use strict; you imbecile.
 
Anyway, too bad he isn't here to see how you try to defuse this mess
 
user1804599
Then you don't have global by default; you get an error if you don't use my or our.
 
user1804599
And that brings the other thing Perl got right: variables have to be declared explicitly.
 
user1646075
@Rerito no, not until i got pissed at being (apparently) corrected like a child. Different people approach the world differently. It's ok by me. Actually scratch that, I wasn't even trying to offend him then, but just - . - - y'know, push him away.
 
user1646075
@rightføld oh he's hating on Perl again? poor thing.
 
user1646075
8:13 AM
dinner! kids! bbl
 
On a completely different matter, I feel I am at the point where I need to dig on how C++ compilers work. For now I've always focused on the abstract CS stuff (algos, data struct etc). Maybe some assembler knowledge would help
 
user1804599
@GuruAdrian lol dinner at 9 AM
 
I am not asking for an online lesson, but a few directions would be of great help !
 
user1646075
@Rerito ehh, I'll talk to @Jalf if he likes. I don't like misunderstandings. See, I @'d him so maybe he'll respond in goodwill. i also don't like seeing people interweb rage at all, it saddens me for them.
 
user1804599
@Rerito There isn't much to know about assemblers other than assembler foo.s -o foo.o.
 
user1646075
8:14 AM
it's 7:15 pm here
 
user1646075
ciao for niao!
 
@rightføld Yes, but I must learn how to read the output !
@GuruAdrian See you
 
user1804599
Reading the output of an assembler is even more silly.
 
> I feel like StackExchange isn’t committed enough. I want to see a StackOverflow for Klingons, and perhaps in Elvish as well.
Ugh.
 
user1804599
Or do you want to know how to generate machine code?
 
8:16 AM
"Elvish"
 
user1804599
My fish is called Elvis!
 
user1804599
"Vis" is the Dutch word for fish. :P
 
These people should die, choked on a ring with Tengwar inscriptions.
 
I guess that's it @rightføld. I think this would help me getting a better understanding on how my C++ code is being translated by the compiler and how to design it better
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ..?
 
user1804599
8:18 AM
Knowing how assemblers work helps you about nothing when you want to know how C++ compilers work.
 
There isn't much to an assembler anyway.
At least compared to a compiler.
 
user1804599
If you know nothing about compilers you may also start with understanding how the compilers for simpler languages work.
 
user1804599
Because C++ is insane.
 
Start with C. Basic constructs only.
 
Yes, it's close to nothing unfortunately. And when asking for directions this is precisely this kind of advice I was seeking
 
user1804599
8:20 AM
Python or Go perhaps.
 
user1804599
Maybe C dunno.
 
C might be a better fit since I am quite used to it
 
@Rapptz Just being fanboy-pedant.
 
What pedantry? I don't get it.
Are you saying Elvish doesn't exist?
 
So, what would be the best approach ? Building basic program and watch the generated code ? Doing some research about eg. "how does gcc work" or something ?
 
8:22 AM
@Rapptz Works like Celtic.
 
@Rapptz The elves speak several languages in Middle Earth.
 
@Rerito Write hello world in C, compile it and see what it generates.
Maybe not the assembly output, but the LLVM output.
 
user1804599
@Rerito Which part of the compiler do you want to know about?
 
user1804599
Or just a global overview?
 
A global overview would be a good starting point
 
user1804599
8:25 AM
Preprocessing, lexing and parsing are boring.
 
user1804599
the fun is at analyzing semantically
 
@Mysticial I am using gcc, how can I get the LLVM output ?
 
lol, switch to Clang.
I'm sure GCC has something similar, but I'm not familiar with it, and I hear it's harder to penetrate than LLVM.
I'm not a Clang/LLVM fanboy, I don't even use it as a compiler, but it's great for learning compilers.
 
So just to sum up and see if I read correctly, here are the steps I'll follow : write a basic C program, compile it with Clang and analyze the LLVM output.
 
Just to double-check, you can read assembly right?
 
user1804599
8:31 AM
Beh
 
user1804599
Call-by-name parameters in Styx are impossible to implement.
 
user1804599
Unless they are explicitly specified as being call-by-name at the callsite.
 
@Rapptz What people usually are talking about when they refer to "the Elvish language" is Tengwar, the writing system, which can be used to write many languages. That way, "Stack Overflow in Elvish" is comparable to "Stack Overflow in Cyrillic".
 
More like stuttering actually @Mysticial
 
user1804599
I realise we could sanitise this input and proper case the data entered - no offense intended, but no, I think you cannot reliably do that. What you might be able to do is make the input uniform, but like that, it is probably not "sanitary" and even less likely "properly cased". — O. R. Mapper Dec 12 at 12:27
 
user1804599
8:34 AM
> no offense intended
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
> Users enter information in upper case either intentionally, or unintentionally (e.g. they happen to have CAPSLOCK activated).
 
user1804599
I hate users.
 
GCC has -fdump-tree-gimple for outputting 'a C-like representation of the GIMPLE form', whatever that is. Can’t find any flag for the other intermediate representations, you could take a look yourself though.
5
 
Ugh. products_id. Who the hell designed this DB?!
 
user1804599
8:39 AM
@MarkGarcia a user
 
user1804599
lol you can edit removed messages
 
Because table name is products (which I prefer). But dang should just have named the table to product.
 
@LucDanton Thank you !
 
user1804599
Wooo
 
user1804599
Almost 100 upvotes on my answer.
 
user1804599
8:41 AM
@MarkGarcia My classmates named an abstract class Characters because "it had multiple subclasses."
 
user1804599
@MarkGarcia No, name the fucking table products and the column id.
 
user1646075
@Rerito If you want to learn parsing, C is quite straight-forward, and can be done in one pass. for some reason I think goto or goto-labels are the only thing demanding look-ahead. Parsing Pascal is even simpler and there's a shit-load of course material based upon it.
 
user1804599
If you want to be explicit in the query you can say products.id.
 
user1646075
or do you literally want to understand machine code aka instruction sets?
 
user1804599
> machine code aka instruction sets
 
8:43 AM
@GuruAdrian The latter. I feel it is a necessary step to truly understand what I am doing
 
goto doesn't need any lookahead for parsing.
 
@rightføld I mean, whoever who designed the thing should have just named it product if he's going to the <table name>_id route. I do prefer your suggestion.
 
goto foo; is unambiguously a goto statement.
Whether the label exists or not doesn't affect the parsing.
 
user1646075
since the labels are not declared, an unknown ident can be resolved only when you see : but that's based on a really dumb top-down parser. I remember making one far too many years ago to be willing to say ;=)
 
user1646075
label: i really mean
 
user1804599
8:45 AM
I think I shouldn't just make the default issue state "PEBKAC" but also automatically resolve the issues with a comment referring the user to an euthanasia clinic.
 
user1646075
@Rerito even learning a simplistic pseudo-machine is a good step. Real processors are uglier. What's the instruction set like in the Arduino's?
 
I can't phrase it properly since I have no sufficient knowledge on the topic
 
user1646075
you have a burning desire to understand the underlying concepts of computer machinery
 
The idea is I just want to understand the way compilers will translate my "high-level code" into a binary.
That's one way of putting it yes :)
 
user1804599
Normally I suggest starting with something simple but all simple instruction sets I know about are stack-based. :P
 
user1646075
8:48 AM
Stacks are good. why would you think that is a problem?
 
For now, I just know things as black boxes, and some phenomenons (branch prediction for example)
(Read I know next to nothing :p)
 
user1804599
x86-64 is register-based so knowing about stack-based instruction sets may not be very useful.
 
user1646075
oh right, that sense.
 
user1804599
CIL, Java bytecode, CPython bytecode, et al are stack-based. :[
 
user1804599
Maybe Dalvik?
 
user1646075
8:50 AM
building a pseudo-machine for a subset of a pascal-like language would cover a number of bases. wonder what the internet offers...
 
Y86.
Or Knuth's MIX or MMIX
 
user1804599
Oh right MIX.
 
user1646075
yeah, that sort of thing. not heard of Y86. simplified 86 by chance?
 
Yeah.
They use it in my university to teach these things.
 
user1804599
DCPU-16 :P
 
8:52 AM
Yeah.
 
user1646075
just found it's website. Very derivative!
 
Just pick some simple instruction set like that and translate a few programs by hand.
You'll notice patterns.
 
user1646075
now, course materials...
 
user1646075
actually, i didn't find it's website, but a place offering tutoring.
 
I'd recommend against MIX, though.
It's prone to self-modifying code.
 
user1804599
8:55 AM
I still have to figure out how to encode try/catch/finally in bytecode.
 
> As with every International System of Units (SI) unit whose name is derived from the proper name of a person, the first letter of its symbol is upper case (N). However, when an SI unit is spelled out in English,
it should always begin with a lower case letter (newton), except in a situation where any word in that position would be capitalized, such as at the beginning of a sentence or in capitalized material such as a title. Note that “degree Celsius” conforms to this rule because the “d” is lowercase.
So nice. There will always be things to define, be pedantic about.
 
user1804599
Exceptions are a bit suck.
 
@GuruAdrian s/it's/its/
 
user1646075
@sehe YOUR CASE RESTS.
 
Hi
 
8:58 AM
Yep, entered the wrong building.
 
user1646075
@sehe howwa.
 
user1804599
Oh I think I only have to store the size of the stack at every try/catch.
 
user1804599
Rather than at every call.
 
user1646075
@rightføld what about registering catch points?
 
user1646075
and also finaly points I guess, if it needs to flop down several frames until it finds a conformant type
 
user1804599
8:59 AM
Then unwinding is just callStack.resize(n) and evaluationStack.resize(m). :p
 

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