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12:00 AM
= default?
 
Oh hai everybody
 
Yes
 
heh
 
Oh God Rapptz...
 
?
 
12:00 AM
I love you
 
ello @Jefffrey
 
That's Mr. God Rapptz for you.
 
@Tuntuni Hello maister
 
lol
 
I love you too Cat... just a little bit less
:P
You are so grumpy and all
 
12:01 AM
Liar.
 
In vino veritas
 
wtf is a sink argument?
 
So what's up? I've been missing for a week now. What happened in between?
 
GoingNative 2013 is currently being streamed
it started 2 days ago
 
wait.... so his answer to "Inheritance is the base class of all evil" is to use pimpl with ineritance?
 
12:04 AM
2 talks left (including the current one)
 
This guy's hardcore violating rule of 0.
 
@Jefffrey channel9.msdn.com if you want to check it out
 
> Inheritance Is The Base Class of Evil
 
@Jefffrey That's the current one.
 
What the fuck is up with all those capitalized letters
?
 
12:05 AM
No idea. :P
I'm looking forward to Herb's 10-liner.
(That's in the next talk in 5 minutes.)
 
@Jefffrey It's called title case..
 
@Rapptz It sucks. No matter what is it called.
 
It's standard English.
 
What? Are you kidding?
 
No.
 
12:07 AM
No, lrn2english
 
lol #rekt :p
 
In orthography and typography, letter case (or just case) is the distinction between the letters that are in larger upper case (capital letters, caps, majuscule, upper-case, or uppercase) and smaller lower case (minuscule, etc.) letters in certain languages. The term originated from the common layouts of the shallow drawers called type cases used to hold the movable type for letterpress printing. In the Latin script, capital letters are A, B, C, etc.; lower case includes a, b, c, etc. Most Western languages (certainly those based on the Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, Armenian alphabets, and Co...
 
> Sentence case
is the one you want to go with
 
I tabbed out for 5 seconds and now we're doing photoshop
What the shit man
 
He'll be done in 2 minutes.
 
12:09 AM
Where'd Photoshop come into a C++ talk?
 
He's giving an example from when he worked on photoshop
 
lol
 
remember he's an adobe employee
 
@Rapptz The "multiple undo" part of talk description.
 
@Borgleader Oh okay.
I don't know anyone here
Except STL, Herb, and Bjarne I guess
 
12:10 AM
@Rapptz Andrei, Chandler?
Scott too
 
Andrei today
 
I know those 6
 
Didn't know how he looked like
 
I just remembered that Flash is from Adobe now
 
@Rapptz :o
 
12:11 AM
hipster style
 
Pulling pixels from the past.
 
Now he's just showing off Photoshop.
 
Doctor Who style.
 
@Jefffrey If you used Sentence case in titles people would look at you weird.
 
@Rapptz Only weird people would look at me weird
 
12:14 AM
@Rapptz Oh and I'm adding Eric Brumer to my "awesome people" list too.
 
I think he just went back to the rule of zero.
 
@Pawnguy7 should have listened to this
 
Ok this is kinda cool. I wasn't convinced at first but damn...
 
@Rapptz to what?
 
This talk.
 
12:15 AM
"Inheritance Is The Base Class of Evil" is the name of the talk.
 
What topic specifically?
 
"Inheritance Is The Base Class of Evil"
He should post the slides online so you can look at it
 
Haha. They are recorded, right?
 
yeah, they'll be out in a few days
took a bit less than 48hours to get the first talks
 
Scott said he'll be uploading his slides so I hope others will too.
 
12:17 AM
Ok. The video kept hanging for me.
 
@Tuntuni Scott? My lover?
 
Oh of course the adobe guy has a mac :P
 
Lol he's slow at everything he does.
 
@Borgleader What's wrong with macs?
 
Did you see the way he closed the lid?
 
12:18 AM
@Jefffrey The price?
 
Yaaay, finally, the 10-liner.
 
time for herb's shit
 
LOL
Herb's been smoking some herbs, huh?
 
@Borgleader I foresee a "but the software is built on top of specific hardware and works way better" kind of discussion
 
this is dumb
 
12:20 AM
lol
 
Herb's favourite 10-liner is a piece of crap
 
So you think I can learn?
 
@Rapptz Yeah, I'm disappointed too. :/
 
"Inheritance Is The Base Class of Evil" - should it not be the other way round?
 
huh?
 
12:22 AM
Surely there is Evil that is not inherited?
 
Is Herb raged?
 
lol
he rejected STL
 
Wow he's using a singleton
Herb's favourite 10-liner has a singleton.
Amazing.
 
No, that's a far-less-than-10-liner.
 
@Rapptz Sorry, but I just imagined you running plugging your ears with your fingers yelling "Singletons are bad" repeatedly
3
 
12:26 AM
Come on man, I'm not like that
:(
 
Is a singleton better than just keeping all the data static? Lesser of two evils, basically.
 
bing wallpaper
 
well he does work at microsoft doesn't he
 
mm :/
Is he promoting Cinder?
 
One day babe we will be old....
Baaaabe we'll be oooold
Ooooone day babe we'll beeeee oooooooooooooold.
 
12:30 AM
Herb Sutter is actually head of the PR department for C++ and Cinder.
 
@Rapptz lol
so that's why
 
Everyone saying Cinder is good
 
lol ya
 
but it looks pretty bad
 
@Rapptz xcept the puppy
 
12:33 AM
@Pawnguy7 No.
 
@Pawnguy7 Singleton is two evils.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh hai maister
 
I bought a used book.
 
I love you as cat_love / 2 - scott_love
lol wait. It's negative
 
Oh god, Herb is giving some marketing thing about some Cinder thing.
 
12:36 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Anything interesting syfy?
 
"Have you used Cinder before?" "No"
"Would you recommend it?" "Oh yes!"
^ x10
 
5 mins ago, by Rapptz
Herb Sutter is actually head of the PR department for C++ and Cinder.
 
@Borgleader The second-to-last missing piece in my Known Space collection: a copy of Neutron Star, which is out of print.
The last one is the order that Amazon stole from me.
Were the other talks as crappy as this one?
 
Some of them were, some of them werent. :p
"Confidential Compiler" was awesome.
 
No, Sean's was really good, the compiler one was off the hook
 
12:41 AM
STL's talk on <random> was awesome too.
 
^ we nuked an answer lol
 
> Are we going to get OpenGL (or equivalent thereof) in the Standard some day?
Really, this is an upcoming question?
WTF
Why do people want OpenGL in the standard?
 
Those are all of the question that haven't been answered.
And never will be. :D
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes link?
 
I know, but who picks those?
@Rapptz It's on the c9 front page.
Below the videos, under "Upcoming questions"
 
12:43 AM
Oh.
How sad is it that I went to std-proposals first?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They pick them during "question time" on the end of some talks.
 
Didn't herb say he was working on making a 2d api/library in c++ as a proof of concept for integration in the c++ standard?
 
@Rapptz lol, yeah.
Totally the kind of stuff you could find there.
I don't know how clueless you have to be to ask that.
 
He said "channel nineteen"?
Welp, GN2013 is over. Time to download some of the videos.
 
Isn't there a panel at the end?
 
12:45 AM
Aw, only Day 1 available so far.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes the panel was shifted before
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It was supposed to be on the end but they threw it in earlier because someone had to catch a plane (I think that's the reason, not quite sure).
 
Oh. Weird.
 
groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/#!topic/std-proposals/… this is currently on the front page of std-proposals (pretty old)
 
@Rapptz There was activity on it recently.
(I replied)
 
12:48 AM
Well, today was really fun. :D I'm going to bed now. Bye everyone.
 
(Check page 5)
 
Anyone remember if sean parent gave any talks last year?
 
Yeah I saw page 5.
 
@Borgleader I don't.
 
I really wanted to write this proposal
Stupid vargs :(
 
12:51 AM
Well, they kinda didn't like it in Bristol.
 
Oh I meant void f(int... i)
but the whole void f(int...) == void f(int, ...) screwed that up
 
@Rapptz I keep getting lured into discussions on that forum and they very often are fruitless :( I need to restrain myself and just treat everyone but Ville and Nicol as inmates.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh! Sounds like people on my level, I should go there
 
Well, and DeadMG.
Really, I totally understand why some study groups want to be "alone".
@Rapptz lol
 
12:54 AM
So, in one sentence, why is inheritance the base class of Evil?
 
impressive
 
Wait, is that a puppet?
 
you mean the 2 identical gravatars?
 
I just refreshed and it's gone
 
12:56 AM
You guys see Darklighter with the gravatar in my image right
 
in the chat i do, he responded to the robot earlier
but on his profile i see it green (and in the profile onebox)
 
Hmm, looks like a bug.
This is the link to the curious gravatar image: https://www.gravatar.com/avatar/?s=128&d=identicon&r=PG&f=1
Note the distinct lack of hash.
 
Deployment complete. :toot:
 
1:06 AM
gratz
 
> is that the library specification (not the core language) says that adding specializations is undefined behavior. That might protect the standard library, but not other libraries.
I thought you were allowed to add template specialisations to namespace std?
How else do you specify std::hash for your custom type ?_?
 
Only to some things.
If it's not explicitly allowed, then you can't.
 
@Rapptz I mean, yeah, I find typename fucking annoying (getting rid of it was one of the first cool things I discovered about alias templates once I started playing with alias templates chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=1888806#1888806), but his suggestion is just plain dumb.
@Rapptz Only in certain cases.
@Rapptz That one is allowed.
You can't specialize std::vector<mytype> for example.
I think.
 
I can't find any wording against it, I've been looking for a while
you could help though
 
There is an overarching requirement that whatever specialisations you add must maintain the requirements.
@Rapptz Sec, I have a question about it.
 
1:11 AM
hash is the only one I've seen so far that mentioned the word "user-defined specialization"
 
24
Q: What can and can't I specialize in the std namespace?

R. Martinho FernandesUsers are allowed to add explicit specializations to the std namespace. However, there are a few templates that I am explicitly forbidden from specializing. What templates can and can't I specialize?

> A program may add a template specialization for any standard library template to namespace std only if the declaration depends on a user-defined type and the specialization meets the standard library requirements for the original template and is not explicitly prohibited.
So you cannot add a specialisation with a static constexpr bool type = true; and so on.
That's what he means there, I think.
 
yeah, he's right about <type_traits> being forbidden
 
i discovered this earlier
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/users/2747962/darklighter
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/users/2713461/user2713461
 
12 mins ago, by Rapptz
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/users/2747962/darklighter http://chat.stackoverflow.com/users/2752419/mahesh
 
@Rapptz Not just that: if the primary template is specified to have a type as a nested type, your specialisations cannot put a non-type.
(That goes for stuff like iterator_traits<>::value_type for example)
 
1:14 AM
What I'm getting out of it is "It's okay, if and only if you meet the requirements"?
 
Yes.
What Bengt says is true for the standard library: you can know if a name is a type by looking at the primary template because of that clause. But if you want to add an exception that only applies to the standard library, I want to shoot you.
 
> and then add_const<T> without both the leading typename and the trailing ::type I think that the use for this suggestion is diminished from the code clutter standpoint. Now, if we could only find a way to get rid of the _t on the names of the usings for new code, I would be quite happy...
:|
> Well, my initial motivation for this suggestion was actually to simplify teaching, as it is quite hard for people to understand that even though the compiler has seen that add_const<T>::type is a type it chooses to ignore this fact...
This guy's a teacher..?
 
@Rapptz Is he?
I wonder if that's where he got his data from.
 
I don't know, sort of implied.
 
Well, you could train new recruits, I guess.
 
1:20 AM
typename is annoying yeah
but we already have using to make it painless, so complaining about it now is just silly to me
 
And proposing more complex rules to simplify teaching is just stupid.
 
the only way to make c++ easier to teach is to revise some of the features in order to simplify the rules and remove some of the quirks imo
then again, idk wtf im talking about
 
C++03 metaprogramming was pretty painful
 
@Borgleader I disagree. It's possible (and a lot more achievable) to simply provide enough better ways to do things that those ugly, confusing parts of the rules no longer intrude into normal use nearly so often. Allowing a beginner to ignore them is much easier than actually removing them.
 
1:36 AM
@JerryCoffin Exactly. The same way we tell people to start with vector.
 
They end knowing how pointers work, right?
 
I dont want to use other libraries — Mike L 1 hour ago
 
@MikeL If you don't want to use the C++ Standard Library, then write C code... — Borgleader 7 secs ago
 
Question:
 
@Pawnguy7 Ultimately, yes -- if they want to. I can imagine a C++ where that's far enough off in the corner that quite a few programmers can work for their entire careers without really needing to spend much time or effort on them though.
 
1:47 AM
How do you name things (types) that start with an acronym?
 
@Pawnguy7 Hmm...Hungarian Notation?
 
@JerryCoffin By imagine, you mean in the future, or a way to make it that now?
@JerryCoffin Not sure. In this case, I was making a AI difficulty enum for the snakes (computer controlled). But when I see AIDifficulty, I see "AID".
 
@Pawnguy7 I think a little more is needed before that can happen -- but not necessarily all that much.
 
@JerryCoffin does this include or omit the use of smart pointers?
 
1:51 AM
Just today I saw like two questions about clang on windows. I guess chandler did some good PR at GN2013 (exhbitit a, exhibit b)
 
@Pawnguy7 Yes. :-)
 
Why do people always answer my or with yes :\
 
@Pawnguy7 A || B, if either A or B is true then (A || B) is true. Therefore yes.
 
(A), people in my complaint don't know such things, and (B), why not "true"?
 
@Pawnguy7 Because there really isn't an answer (or at least I don't have a good one). Just for example, look through the code I've posted on SO, and see how often I use smart pointers.
 
1:55 AM
I was going to write a prolog program to answer his question (with yes) but I dont remember prolog anymore T_T
 
What is an acceptable sample size?
 
In fairness, I do post some code (once in a while) that uses raw pointers -- but most of it is simply old code that should probably be updated. I'm not sure how many of those would have pointers of any kind if I were rewriting them today.
 
Well, I think we can conclude, you will need references or pointers eventually. How often do you need a reference, but it isn't possible?
 
@JerryCoffin Sean Parent would be disappointed in you
 
@Borgleader Probably. To be honest, part of the time I'm disappointed in me -- I should probably rewrite the code before I post it. I'm just a bit lazy about rewriting working code, just so it follows the latest fashion.
 
2:00 AM
Well you are a programmer... and programmers are lazy.
 
@Borgleader Well -- good ones are anyway.
 
Oh is that why I'm so hard working then? Damn :P
 
So, any idea on the naming?
 
I'm not sure I really qualify as all that good though. I think I used to be better. Nowadays, I'm much more prone to just crank out code I know will work, even when I can think of a way of doing things that might be better.
@Pawnguy7 Yet more proof that underscores rule. AI_difficulty seems pretty unambiguous to me.
 
Yes, but the inconsistency :\
I mentioned this was an enum right?
 
2:05 AM
@JerryCoffin No, you just don't use all caps for acronyms. AiDifficulty.
 
Ah. That could work.
 
@Borgleader Still mixed-case (and therefore mostly horrible).
 
Pff
 
I like enum classes.
Is there any reason to use enums anymore?
 
Not that I know of.
 
2:21 AM
Why do I always get interesting ideas when I'm really sleepy :(
On that note, good night!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 'night (that happens to me too btw)
 
Any keyboard ninja here? Am I doing it right? youtu.be/tkhKpBx3_Tc
 
keyboard ninjas? is that what they call programmers these days?
 
@Borgleader Some programmers know how to type very fast while preserving proper code formatting. I'm still learning that stuff :)
 
{ => enter => code here => down arrow key => semicolon => continue
 
2:27 AM
screw typing fast, tab to autocomplete ftw
 
Can that not be configured to enter?
 
@Pawnguy7 Mind blown
 
hm?
 
@Pawnguy7 and interfere with actually making a new line? no thx :P
 
These look cool..
 
2:30 AM
@Borgleader I didn't watch the entire video. Anyway though, I recall Code::Blocks autocompleted braces like this fine. Make the function signature, enter, braces and your ready to put stuff in them. Enter elsewhere worked fine. Maybe I am missing something.
 
Oh right, Qt Creator auto-completes braces properly.
 
@Rapptz Most of the time when writing functions, I stay inside the function for some time (refactoring the code) and I'd like to "take care of" the semi-colon immediately.
 
@Pawnguy7 I didn't watch the video, I was making a general statement
 
Why do you remove semicolons if you're just fixing the inside of the function?
 
@Borgleader I don't understand what it would interfere.
 
2:33 AM
@Rapptz I mean, I create a new function. But then I stay inside the function body for some time (writing code, refactoring code, adding new code at the top of the func. body). Usually, I don't end up at the bottom of the function with the caret.
 
@Pawnguy7 If enter means both autocomplete and make new line. How do you decide which to do? (in the case where both are possible). I much prefer having them separate.
 
When you press the down arrow key on Sublime Text (what it looks like you're using) the caret will go to the end of the } brace when you're on the line above.
 
@Borgleader The semi-colon would only be placed if ENTER was pressed while the caret was between braces.
 
(again i didn't watch the video im talking in the general sense)
@Rapptz third one from the left reminded me of Riven for some reason
 
@Rapptz Yes, I show that in the video. The problem is that I have to move my right hand over to the arrow keys. It's much quicker when I do it with my method (ESC, H, I, ENTER) because I don't have to move hand.
 
2:37 AM
Whatever floats your boat man. Personal thing you're used to. Pick one that works.
 
@Borgleader Never mind, I remembered incorrectly. Newline did nothing, it just completed the braces when you made the first one. (after a function signature)
enum Alert { green, yellow, election, red }; // traditional enum
Is it me, or is one of these not like the rest?
 
wtf is an election alert lol
 
We only add semicolons for braces at the end of unions, enums, and classes. (and arrays too, I guess)
 
Do you after lambdas?
 
2:42 AM
Yes
 
Hm. Imagine I can get by without touching a union?
 
yes, unions are pretty lame anyway
and their most common use case is UB anyway
 
@Pawnguy7 If you think you need a union what you really need is a variant
boost::variant
 
Quite the opposite, in fact. I cannot quite understand when you would use them. I feel like I knew once and forgot. A variant, though? That might work. Although, how was it you tell which one is, for lack of a better word, active?
 
IIRC theres an accessor or iterator for that.
I haven't used them all that much.
 
2:52 AM
lol TIL unordered containers return local_iterator not iterator
@Pawnguy7 which() tells you the index active
variant<int, std::string> v with int active would return 0 from which
 
Ah. I meant in terms of unions, but that is good to know.
 
In unions you can't know and that's the problem.
 
Ah.
 
Anyone have opinions on this router?
 
@chris it seems exactly 1234 people have an opinion :)
> I was very pleased recommend to anyone looking for a good, fast router.
> Then every 2 days it would drop connection and require a powercycle.
> Returned for full refund and will never buy from this company again.
 
3:09 AM
I'm always reluctant to read user reviews. Mostly because some people don't know wtf they're talking about and more importantly, people are more prone to post reviews if they had issues with the product than if all went well
 
Seems people had a problem when they put DD-WRT on it (and I can only imagine it wouldn't work nearly as well without), but upgrading to the latest revision solved it.
 
3:35 AM
If you delete a copy constructor, the move is implicitly deleted?
That.. makes no sense
 
I always believed I could initialize a plain C struct (in C++) with zeroes with:
struct sockaddr_in addr = {0};
but I found, in question http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1998752/which-one-to-use-memset-or-value-initialization-to-zero-out-a-struct that I could use:
struct sockaddr_in addr = {};

What is the difference?
 
None.
Finally finished STL's rand() talk!
 
Hm..
 
At least I feel a lot more confident with using <random> now.
 
I wonder if there's a way to make any not require CopyConstructible
 

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