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2:00 PM
@ArneMertz Strictly, you might have used it in some context that did not require the _ for it to be lexed correctly.
 
@DeadMG of course it's non-standard. But not rejecting the operator is non-standard as well, so its sort of an extension that is not implemented consequently
 
@ArneMertz It's probably not an explicit extension to permit it at all, only that whoever programmed that check didn't care enough to make it an error.
 
Xeo
app :: ArrowApply (~>) => (b ~> c, b) ~> c
Well that's cool (the (~>))
 
Oh right. VC doesn't have make_unique.
 
TypeOperators
 
2:02 PM
Xeo has one for VS2012 somewhere
 
Maybe I can make a randomized list of indexes instead.
 
@Pawnguy7 Iterators or pointers would be better. You won't go far using indexes into a linked list.
 
I am not using a list anymore.
 
even so, indices suck.
 
@Rapptz I remember when the puppy announced he was adding the 6-argument overload to his.
 
2:05 PM
:lol:
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think that it's up to 7 or 8 now.
 
lol
 
Xeo
Just have a single make_unique(std::piecewise_construct_t, Tuple&&) one :D
 
but for some reason, MSVC has decided that actually, it's happy with the variadic template version now.
 
Xeo
2:06 PM
Oh wait, nevermind, unpacking still won't work
@DeadMG CTP?
 
yep.
 
What went wrong with MSVC?
 
the MS part? :3
 
well, fuck.
 
2:07 PM
The VC part is worse.
 
Does anyone here know of a reliable way to get a portable python?
 
this is going to be decidedly unpleasant.
 
@Rapptz What do you mean with that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Python I can put in my flash drive :(
 
Oh, that kind of portable.
 
2:08 PM
@Rapptz implement python in python - now you have a portable python that will run on any (python) platform :)
 
Googling leads me to some sketchy looking links.
 
Just unzip it?
Or copy or whatever.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yep.
 
What's sketchy about it?
 
2:09 PM
those download icons
 
Seriously there's nothing non-portable about Python, you don't need silly stuff like that.
 
hella sketchy
 
@melak47 The "Fork me on GitHub" thing too.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I didn't see that lol
My work's computer screen is so fucking bright. Who changed this :(
 
hmm
I have a T, and sometimes I need to own it, and sometimes not.
 
2:12 PM
The only registry keys CPython uses are used for distutils-generated installers.
 
that's gonna be a clusterfuck.
 
You can live without them.
 
@CatPlusPlus I can't use the MSI installer, so.. I was just looking to put it in my flash drive.
 
Unpack it. Or install it and copy it.
 
Random indices may suck, but they do work :D
 
Xeo
2:15 PM
@DeadMG std::unique_ptr<T, optional_deleter> with a bool
I think I recently mentioned that to someone else.
 
hmm.
I think I have a better question, which is, "Is it really necessary for me to parse multiple files in parallel at all?".
 
@Xeo That's so ugly.
 
Xeo
Welp
 
@DeadMG Didn't we make fun of ThePhD for doing this earlier?
 
@Rapptz Not to my memory.
 
2:17 PM
@Xeo Haha I use that for my type erasure thingy.
 
@DeadMG so why not use different pointer types? unique_ptr and plain T* for example?
 
well, ideally, I'd like to re-use the completely non-owning class if possible.
maybe I should just do unordered_map<T*, unique_ptr<T*>>, and erase if in map.
 
Xeo
If only there was heterogenous lookup, eh
 
I don't understand what you just said.
 
Xeo
Whatever you proposed.
 
2:23 PM
well
 
Xeo
So, app is basically app (f, x) = f x but generalized to arrows?
 
I guess that logically, m.erase(p); isn't really substantially different to delete p;.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG 'cept that the map tells you that you own said pointer
 
that's true, I guess.
ah, I'm too lazy to reinvent another class to do the same purpose but it sometimes owns shit.
 
@Xeo Yeah, but that shouldn't give you much insight into the generalized operation. ArrowApply is exactly as powerful as Monad however.
 
Xeo
2:26 PM
> proc x -> f x -<< x+1
which is equivalent to
arr (\ x -> (f x, x+1)) >>> app
That implies f to be a binary function, right?
 
Xeo
:(
 
Maybe. I don't know.
 
@Xeo Yes.
 
Xeo
I don't see how it can be somthing else
 
2:28 PM
Every time I think I understand arrows.
 
@Xeo That looks like an optimization though, I don't get why app would need to be used.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton I'm just going through the ghc docs for arrows
 
Or do I? Mmh.
 
Xeo
That was part of the explanation for -<<
 
2:32 PM
I suppose it makes sense -- inspecting an arrow value, i.e. the result of f x, is what app is all about.
 
@Xeo Only for the -> arrow.
Nah, too cryptic.
 
Xeo
lol
 
It can be f :: (Arrow a) => b -> a c d.
 
Xeo
=>
 
> With Kurt I’m scratching my own itch.
 
2:35 PM
Ooops.
@StackedCrooked Rant side ass tuff.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It wasn't until you said that that I realized that isn't what it was supposed to be.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, arr . const?
Oh wait, d, not b
also, using a for arrows is fucking confusing at times
 
I find the type operator version cute but not that much helpful. It moves the type constructor around, but it's the amount of constructors in the first place I find hard to grokk at times.
 
You can't `infixate` type ctors, can you?
 
2:40 PM
That's what that extension(s) is about.
liftA2 :: Arrow (~>)
=> (a -> b -> c) -> (e ~> a) -> (e ~> b) -> (e ~> c)
^ don't think it helps too much.
 
Oh, not what I meant.
I meant c `a` d for a c d.
 
> Back-quotes work as for expressions, both for type constructors and type variables; e.g. Int Either Bool, or Int a Bool. Similarly, parentheses work the same; e.g. (:*:) Int Bool.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes you did.
I'm not fixing that markdown failure.
 
Oh, come on!
You know you have to! You can't resist it!
 
I'm debugging off-by-one stuff, it's much more enticing.
 
Let the Markdown bait you into its cyclopean mazes.
 
Xeo
2:42 PM
Having type variables actually behave like variables is cool
 
hihi
 
Wait until you hear about Data Kinds.
 
Xeo
ArrowLoop / rec still hurts my head.
@LucDanton * -> * stuff?
 
No, that's regular kind stuff!
 
Xeo
lol
 
2:43 PM
Data kind is for putting data in your kinds :3
 
@Xeo That. Is. The. Most. Awesome. Part.
 
how are you
 
Xeo
Fine, if you look past the ArrowLoop induced headache
 
@Xeo Much like ArrowApp mirrors Monad, that would mirror MonadFix.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes It just seems like it's traveling in time :(
 
2:44 PM
@Xeo Do you get MonadFix (and mdo-notation)?
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Good thing I understand MonadFix!
 
I'm just saying. If like me you find arrows not as grokkable as monads, then you can start there and learn the same stuff, but in a different form.
Remember, 'exactly as powerful'.
 
Hm.. weird.
mingwbuilds has std::isblank but STL's distro doesn't.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nope
Still don't even get what fix points are :(
Which atleast seems kinda related
 
Hang on.
@Xeo I agree. I kinda bunch up everything in the same place in my head.
I really liked Haskell/Denotational semantics to learn about, well, denotational semantics but fixpoints (of the Data.Function.fix sort) are mentioned as an example.
 
2:49 PM
@Xeo It's like Niven's Law of Time Travel! (That was my mental crutch to get it, but I admit it's probably a terrible suggestion)
 
I have to warn you that mfix is a long way away though. It's more like background exposition material than anything else.
 
hmmm
I should use a set for this instead of a vector.
 
"No time machine ever exists" is the fixed point of the "travel back in time holding forward causality" function.
 
Is a set just a vector that doesn't allow duplicate items?
 
It makes sense in my head :|
 
2:51 PM
I suppose it does, but I'm saying that after the fact :p
 
Xeo
What I don't get is where loop :: (Arrow a) => a (b, d) (c, d) -> a b c conjures the first d from to start the loop :<
@R.MartinhoFernandes Meaning it can't go further back then that?
 
The two d are 'joined' together. The community likes to use the expression 'tying the knot' for this.
 
@Xeo Nah, you need to look up the law to have a chance of it making sense.
 
Xeo
:(
 
Suppose it is easy to send messages to the past, but that forward causality also holds (i.e. past events determine the future).
In one way of reasoning about it, a message sent to the past will "alter" the entire history following its receipt, including the event that sent it, and thus the message itself. Thus altered, the message will change the past in a different way, and so on, until some "equilibrium" is reached--the simplest being the situation where no message at all is sent. Time travel may thus act to erase itself (an idea Larry Niven fans will recognize as "Niven's Law").
 
2:54 PM
i.e. there's always bottom as a last resort fixpoint.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Sure, but still - don't you need some d to start?
I understand that the output d will be fed back into the loop after that, but before?
 
I recommend my link (I get that it's not a short read).
 
Xeo
Although, I guess - the actual implementation of loop also plays a role?
 
Indeed.
 
Xeo
hm
 
2:56 PM
Same way implementing (>>=) is (part of) what makes the particular monad.
 
Xeo
How'd loop be implemented for (->) for example?
 
Are commit messages every longer than a sentence?
 
Xeo
@Pawnguy7 Yes
 
@Xeo With fix.
 
Xeo
Going full loop with this thing, eh
Off to read then, I guess
 
2:58 PM
What I had in mind was, have the.. topic sentence, of sorts, and only display that at a glance, but if you look at the commit specifically, it has more information.
 
loop f b = let (c, d) = f (b, d) in c
(Inlining fix is actually easier, I guess)
 

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