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Aaaand downvotes for duplicate.
 
I'll probably use this :v
 
@Rapptz I don't see any compelling features in Lua, so any problem is enough to make me not bother
 
I only use it because it's easy to embed.
?
 
user1804599
Meh, so verbose.
 
9:02 AM
you're missing end btw
 
So JavaScript
 
@rightfold They aren't in D anymore since one or two years.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow gooD.
 
user1804599
It’s sad they ever were, though.
 
Probably because D didn't have generics, initially.
 
user1804599
9:04 AM
I want Dava#, which has the worst of three languages.
 
You mean Objective-C?
 
@rightfold PHDavaScript#++
 
user1804599
Objective-C has no covariant arrays.
 
user1804599
Arrays always store ids.
 
@rightfold So just Java?
 
9:05 AM
I just discovered Abyx has been here since day 1 O_o
 
@CatPlusPlus We were talking about that question and my answer
 
JBL
I suppose Jon Skeet is a zero-day member.
 
Jon Skeet was a member before SO was even a thing
 
@CatPlusPlus he was a member when the site was in beta
 
@CatPlusPlus and my problem with /o+ doing peephole and ppl saying it is irrelevant is that:
9 mins ago, by Glenn Teitelbaum
problem is that removing for (int i = 0; i < 1 << 30; i++) ; is a peephole opt
 
9:07 AM
I still don't see what's a problem
@GamesBrainiac Congrats on missing the joke
 
@CatPlusPlus - so by design C# will just follow endless loops?
 
I don't know what the spec says, or if it even says anything about empty loops
Removing empty loops is a crappy optimisation anyway, because it's usually code that was put there on purpose
 
posted on December 03, 2013

If what you're doing is Scrum in isolation, it won't work. Scrum requires a much larger corporate culture of agility.

 
well I am actually stealing a game now
 
15 mins ago, by Glenn Teitelbaum
fine - I'll change my answer to - because C# sucks ass
 
9:12 AM
If the spec doesn't say anything, then it's irrelevant to whether compiler/JIT does that or not
Also seriously
 
@ScottW ...
 
bloo bloo compiler didn't remove the loop I put there on purpose (but is meaningless because I'm doing a shitty meaningless synthetic benchmark)
 
ok - deleted answer - it can wait for Skeet to grab
 
> bloo bloo
lol
 
user1804599
I want to fucking scroll.
 
user1804599
9:18 AM
Fucking JavaScript blocking the main thread.
 
Leave it to ~~performance~~ guys to pick a most irrelevant thing possible and argue that C++ is better because of it
 
@CatPlusPlus wut
 
I am depressed - even if everything turns out to be the best there could be, life is still so depressing
 
This loop thing is not a very useful optimisation, and yet the question begins with "I'm seriously doubting if the C# or .NET JIT compilers perform any useful optimizations" ;laffo:
 
@Telkitty Look on the bright side: VS 2013 CTP has generic lambdas!
 
9:22 AM
lol
 
Who needs to follow basic logic
 
Gotta admit that its a good find that C# doesnt opt that out
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow So do clang and GCC: [] (void* x, void* y) -> void* { … }.
 
No it's not
 
nite all
 
user1804599
9:25 AM
It is code that never occurs in code written by people who are not complete idiots. There is no reason to optimise it out.
 
Eh, not necessarily true
 
user1804599
In C++ this is a little different because of crap like macros.
 
JBL
Ok is it me, or the PDF format is such a pain to deal with... ?
 
@JBL Not just you, by any means.
 
You can have a loop where each iteration calls some function which just so happens to have no effect. After inlining, you end up with an empty loop, which is an obvious candidate for removal
 
9:27 AM
Well, I think I need to go get some sleep. Catch you all later.
 
JBL
@JerryCoffin I mean, what's those user space units, why the fuck does (0,0) start at a weird place, and why the fuck isn't it consistent across pages !
 
well, looks like gcc doesn't have std::aligned_union.
 
JBL
G'nite Jerry !
 
Xeo
@nightcracker I found the hot question list...
 
@Xeo yeha me too
 
9:38 AM
@rightfold lol void*
 
@CatPlusPlus: It certainly is, you just made that up out of nowhere. If you don't believe me you should compile your performance-critical C++ programs without DCE and see if you notice a significant difference. — Mehrdad 4 mins ago
Ahahahaha
I NEED DCE TO MAKE MY CODE FAST
 
What is DCE?
 
Dead code elimination
 
I love the smell of language war flames in the morning.
6
 
Meh, who cares about languages
 
9:42 AM
@MartinJames You mean flame wars.
 
He's terrible at programming period
 
@FredOverflow Data Communication Equipment
 
JBL
I can't even understand in the slightest how he came to the conclusion that dead code slow down his program.
 
Hey @Mysticial how much dead code do you keep around when calculating pies
 
JBL
Oh right, he completely misunderstand what dead code means.
 
9:43 AM
No no Wikipedia says so
So it's true you see
 
JBL
Obviously.
 
But regardless of empty loops being "dead" or not, because it's just silly naming really, it's still a complete non-issue
 
Not sure I do now. I thought 'dead code' was unreachable code.
 
OH NO COMPILER DIDN'T REMOVE THE USELESS LOOP I PUT THERE ON PURPOSE
 
JBL
@MartinJames Yep. That doesn't execute, this sort of things...
 
9:44 AM
@MartinJames nono read wikiepdia and you will know
 
I have to read wikipedia:((
 
JBL
'tis a dangerous place.
 
I love when Wikipedia is sourced, because their CS articles' quality ranges from "bad" to "terrible"
I had a funnier version of above sentence in mind but I forgot
Also going back to loops
It's just so hilariously bad
I'd even say it's on par with expecting compiler to do algorithmic improvements
I wrote terrible, useless code and it executes?!?!?!?!
 
JBL
Funny syntax, i < 1 << 30.
 
Meh - I'm late to this. I guess I'll have to read the question that started it all...
 
JBL
9:49 AM
I read it "While i less than one and much much less than 30".
 
9
Q: C# vs. C++ performance -- why doesn't .NET perform the most basic optimizations (like dead code elimination)?

MehrdadI'm seriously doubting if the C# or .NET JIT compilers perform any useful optimizations, much less if they're actually competitive with the most basic ones in C++ compilers. Consider this extremely simple program, which I conveniently made to be valid in both C++ and C#: #if __cplusplus #else s...

 
where did you get your definition for DCE?
 
1<<30 is quite small, yes.
 
every definition I've googled thus far disagrees with your definition
 
Dead Code Elimination, was just abbreviated on the spot I think
 
9:51 AM
that's not what I meant
He said DCE is "Elimination of code that doesn't execute. This loop executes, so it's live code by definition."
and he made fun of the wikipedia definition
so I googled it, and every definition online still agrees with Mehrdad.
 
Maybe Cat is wrong?
 
Maybe
 
Oh.. I get it now. The Mehrdad guy read wikipedia and it put his brain into an endless loop of confusion.
 
It's still not important in the slightest
And Wikipedia is still bad
 
@MartinJames After reading Wikipedia that is often the case
 
9:53 AM
"I don't actually know what dead code elimination is, and therefore I conclude that it is useless"
 
I'm glad you have your opinions on a free encyclopaedia resource.
 
I am impressed at the argumentation presented here
 
@jalf Cat logic.
 
I'm talking about the fucking empty loop removal
Not DCE in general
 
9:53 AM
"Oh, and if that wasn't bad enough, it is an optimization (which by definition means it is something you should not worry about), and someone linked to Wikipedia. Therefore it can be disregarded"
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, that was my reaction too, pretty much
 
indeed
 
9:54 AM
Please do tell me why removing empty loops is important
And how it's vital for ~~performance~~critical code
11 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
But regardless of empty loops being "dead" or not, because it's just silly naming really, it's still a complete non-issue
 
The Wiki author obviously had the sanity function in his brain eliminated by DCE because it was unreachable.
 
So yeah focus on the irrelevant stuff!
 
I'll go on a limb here and say you misunderstood what Mehrdad was saying. He didn't say that "empty loops are important and vital for performance-critical code", he said that "DCE is important for performance-critical code", and in your logical thinking you probably assumed that "Oh he's talking about empty loops in his question so he must be talking about empty loops when he mentioned DCE to me" despite that not being the case.
 
@CatPlusPlus Nah, you're doing a pretty good job of that already. I see no reason to compete with you in that area
@CatPlusPlus I already did... The loop might not be obviously empty when you write it. But after optimizations and inlining and dead code elimination, it might end up being empty. And still take a long time just to run through all the iterations, if it is not removed.
 
@MartinJames lol
 
9:58 AM
Also:
It is not a useful question, it's fanboyish thing in thin disguise. — Cat Plus Plus 1 min ago
Really?
 
@Rapptz wat
 
Xeo
@jalf No DCE, no empty loops :P
And thus, you're not running an empty loop!
 
@Xeo Oh yeah, I forgot. Given that DCE is useless, this scenario will never occur. Q.E.D. :)
 
for(int i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { int a = 10; } // removed by DCE
 
air mattress arrived today
 
10:01 AM
I have no profiler and I must optimise
 
What if I want to run an empty loop, for a very short time-delay in a driver, say?
 
I think in Cat's mind anything to do with programming automagically has the "is bad" string appended to it. :P
 
@jalf It loops back (heh get it) to the fact that if DCE does so much, then this code shouldn't be there in the first place
 
@MartinJames then you wake up and decide "oh, I should probably use a sane way to force the delay instead"
 
loop with a volatile counter or as condition that depends o volatile ovjecys
 
10:02 AM
@CatPlusPlus So, it is not worth removing the code because it'll get removed anyway?
wat.
 
@jalf VERY short delay.
 
that was bad
 
I might have to say that again
wat
Also mind blown
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes are you getting angry?
 
10:03 AM
When the fuck did I say it's not worth it
I said it's not very important for compiler to do
 
You're saying that they should detect empty loops as a special case of their DCE handling, just so they can disable it because it is useless then?
 
@Telkitty The sharp stones that you seem to camp over will puncture your airbag.
 
There is a big difference
No dammit
 
@thecosh no, just fat fingering
 
But hey keep truckin' on I guess
 
10:04 AM
> fat fingering
hmmm
is that sexual?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes stop assaulting your keyboard
 
I wrote a Haskell compiler today, but it doesn't support Monads yet, so every program is optimized into a NOP.
18
 
There is no keyboard
 
It's all in your head
 
10:04 AM
@FredOverflow Hahhahahah
 
It's not the monads really.
 
It's the burritos
 
JBL
@FredOverflow make -everything as "deadcode"
 
@FredOverflow Call it 'Narrow'
 
You can implement the monads in Haskell itself. They're not magic.
 
10:05 AM
morning
 
What you need to support is the RealWorld
 
@CatPlusPlus it is a case of DCE. So you're saying that "DCE is important. But this individual instance of DCE isn't"?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Monads wouldn't be as cool without do-notation, though.
 
@MartinJames I am not going to be sleeping on knives ... or rocks that resemble knives ...
 
10:05 AM
@jalf No, you say DCE is important
 
@CatPlusPlus Fair enough. I say DCE is important because we know it is.
 
I say that DCE being removal of useless code is something that should be done on code level, and is not that important to be done at compiler level
 
If you want to justify your ranting by piling on "I don't know the impact of common compiler optimizations and therefore I assume they are not worthwhile", then feel free
@CatPlusPlus And you are not correct. Simple as that.
 
Fine
I'm still only attacking this because of that "I'm seriously doubting if the C# or .NET JIT compilers perform any useful optimizations" crap
 
So let me summarize your position here: "I don't actually know what DCE means, and I have no clue how much of an impact it makes. Therefore, it is not worth doing"
 
10:08 AM
Yes works for me
 
Yeah, how offensive. "I wrote some C# code and was surprised to see a very basic optimization not being applied. That made me wonder just how much, or how little, optimization is actually being performed"
Damn those fanboys who actually go around looking at what happens to their code at runtime, and trying to understand the implementation
 
Most of my source contains unreachable deadness - functions and methods added for debugging, then the calls to them removed. The ghost methods live on, hiding in the darkest regions of the source, waiting for the compiler to ignore them.
 
It is also which is notoriously bad so
 
Such a fanboyish thing to do. Real programmers rely on blind faith!
 
Real programmers execute programs in conceptual space
 
10:10 AM
@CatPlusPlus You mean "it is also , which is a tag sometimes used by clueless newbies, and which I know nothing about, and which I therefore blindly attack when given the chance"
 
Well done.
 
Thank you
I do try
 
@CatPlusPlus STL instantiates templates in his head.
 
Robot does that too, no?
 
10:12 AM
Death code removal:
// ExitProcess(0);
 
@ScottW hey
 
I wish all code died
 
JBL
Let's get back to sticks and stones.
 
Code doesn't live, so it cannot die
 
JBL
Like... real hard motherfucker hipsters.
 
10:13 AM
I have no life and I must die
 
@JBL Sticks and bones doesn't go far enough. I say we go back to void pointers.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm actually expecting that here. There are high winds, and our power cables frequently blow down in such conditions.
 
I need to sleep more, maybe I'll go on SO less
 
You should actually go do something that doesn't involve computers, outside
 
JBL
What's "outside" ?
 
10:15 AM
Answering SO questions is a black art, (well, it is now).
 
Its that place we all like to forget exists, and yet we should go more often
 
It's cold and fuck it
 
JBL
@TonyTheLion I open my window... sometimes.
 
Do you get fruit flies?
 
10:16 AM
I have no fruit
so no fruit flies
 
but your neighbours might do
 
I don't see my neighbour's, like ever
I don't know that they ever come out of their flat
 
I'm afraid of them - Drosophobia.
 
I go out more than they do
 
@JBL This program demonstrates "outside":
{
    int a = 42;
}
std::cout << a;   // error: outside of a's scope
 
10:18 AM
Which is saying a lot
 
posted on December 05, 2013

Test-driven development is among the most important ideas about how to develop software in the past 20 years or so.

 
I like hiking trips - then I am forced to be away from computers
 
Oh look, more purrformance
@Telkitty They're good for you
If I didn't get out sometimes, then I'd be as cynical as Cat
as has happened
 
JBL
@FredOverflow void outside(){//UB}
 
I also tend to feed wild birds a lot ...
 
10:19 AM
@Telkitty IIRC, it doesn't seem to work that well - you were posting from your tent while lying on a sharp rock and drinking weird-flavoured whisky.
 
@JBL It's important because we know it is
 
@MartinJames lol
 
@Telkitty Just don't feed the trolls, will you?
 
JBL
Oh no, you misunderstood. UB = Unimportant bullshit.
 
Oh no but Wikipedia
 
10:21 AM
'Line 1034: function outside is empty - removed'.
 
JBL
So outside is dead. I can carry on not caring about it then.
Instead I have to deal with this fucking PDF.
 
@all anybody have experience with MFC
 
user1804599
No.
 
clis
has anyone seen bartruck yet /cc @Bartek
 
only one NO?
 
user1804599
10:26 AM
Yes.
 
Xeo
Starbound key, y u no in inbox
 
@Xeo hahaha sucker!
ps: the game is amazing
 
Xeo
Omg
The steam key was already available in my humblebundle library
but I didn't get a mail
fuuu
 
@Anand once upon a time, yeah...
 
Xeo
Okay, now that I have found my Starbound key, I guess my evening activity is decided.
 
user1804599
10:37 AM
Meh.
 
user1804599
I just wrote a giant SQL query of doom.
 
why are most colour schemes online so bad :(
 
@FredOverflow I won't be feeding the trolls ... because I am one of the elitest trolls :p
I was depressed, then I talked to online buddies & my family, now I am feeling awesome again >_<
 
10:52 AM
Because people artistic enough to design a site can't do markup, and people clever enough to do markup aren't artistic.
 
@nightcracker This mentality is rampant in the std-proposals forum.
("for me (...)")
It's one of the things that make it really really bad.
 
TIL
Artists are dumb
@MikeM Hah. It's a bit of a kludge but I posted something that I hope will help you stackoverflow.com/questions/20388025/…
 
@MartinJames the air mattress is surprisingly comfortable
 
And clever people can't do art.
 
@MikeM Interestingly, you might also run into "known" bugs with line_pos_iterator. I linked to the relevant user-list thread there.
 
11:03 AM
56
Q: Has Stack Overflow saved billions of dollars in programmer productivity?

SklivvzJohn Carmack is a reknown developer and CTO. His Twitter account has over 100,000 followers. In occasion of Stack Exchange's 5th anniversary, he quipped on Twitter: [... Stack Overflow] has probably added billions of dollars of value to the world in increased programmer productivity. The t...

In the Lounge's case, productivity was lost
 
@user1158692 not sure if you are trying to be funny, or just ignorant as fuck.
 
@rightfold Oh, BSOD III: Bloated SQL Of Doom.
 
@TonyTheLion hmm... wonder if the net productivity is up or down....
no I don't, it is down :(
 
@Telkitty Don't forget you puncture repair kit when packing.
 
11:06 AM
hmmm
That's higher average than I would have thought
 
@TonyTheLion The 'Top 30 Related IT Skills' list is hugely depressing:((
 
love that link 'programmer.do'
 
@MartinJames yea
Apparently avg salary for a dev in London is 60K
Hmmm
Then I'm definitely not "avarage"
 
who the fuck are those gits pulling £140k o_0
 
Hedge fund devs prolly
or some shit like that
 
11:10 AM
Eugenics question:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20398391/replace-some-individuals-in-the-current-population-using-genetic-algorithm
@thecoshman :-)
..but only in a good year.
 
@MartinJames o_0 you git... you utter git, stop earning so much.
 
@thecoshman This has not been a particularly good year:(
 
One day I'll get that kind of income
hopefully
 
@TonyTheLion I think it requires some sort of effort though vOv
 
Xeo
For now, my income is enough. I work one month, and get enough money to live for two
Some more to put on the side would be nice, though
 
11:23 AM
@thecoshman It does yes.
@Xeo Nice
 
Xeo
I'm not buying much luxury stuff, though :)
I'm basically living off of 130eur for food
 
I have no idea how much I spend on food.
But that value will likely drop when our office moves to down the street from where I live.
 
I earn enough for the misses and myself to be 'ok'. But there is next to no 'future' plans.
 
I'm always scheming for what I want to do in the future
 
Oh wow. Everyone's surviving, huh?
 
11:29 AM
almost
 
@TonyTheLion long walk of a short plank?
 
@thecoshman lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I convinced one of the OEMs I work with to provide both a debug and release build. Can't get them to stop statically linking to the runtime. fml
 
@Mikhail Hmm, sorry, I don't remember the context for that.
 
I'm surviving mostly 'cos I work from home and we're 2k from the nearest boozer. If I had to work in, say, Berlin, I'm pretty sure I'd be broke, (and probably dead), within six months.
 
11:31 AM
@MartinJames lol
Wait, 2km from a booze place?
Wow.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yup. 2k from the Vernon Arms in one direction, 2k from the village club in the other.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes there is none. half my work is programming this array of scientific equipment, and the hardware is made by con-astists who can't programming. instead they outsource the software development the first time the product is made (1998) and then assume it works forever.
 
@MartinJames I have this notion that you like your booze.
 
OTOH, I'm only 10m from my beer fridge, which I must restock at the w/e.
@TonyTheLion I'm sure that there are teetotal software devs around somewhere - I just have never met any.
 
11:39 AM
@TonyTheLion The heaviest drinker in our club is a software developer. He's also the heaviest member, by far - how he fits in an airline seat, I'll never know. I can understand the 16-pints per night though - he develops with Oracle SQL.
 
Note - 16 pints/night only at weekends - he doesn't drink while working, (if you can call SQL working).
 
If I drank 16 pints, I'm sure someone would need to cart me to a nearby Emergency service
I'm not much a drinker though
 
@TonyTheLion Oh, I would be in the morgue. The SQL guy is just enormous, though..
 
11:43 AM
right
I'm sure if you do SQL for a living that is enough reason to drink 16 pints
 
user1804599
SQL: The Sequel
 
Once, I drank 9 pints in a night. It was when I used to hang out with a northerner, and took 2 yrs of training.
(I've never weighted more than 11 stone.)
 
TIL that British and American pints are different sizes.
 
Nowadays I get woozy at 3 or 4, but I think that's cos some of that 9 are still making their way out.
 
@Mikhail ..and so the gallons. This causes me much pain as I do fluid management systems, some for US.
 
11:46 AM
@Mikhail that's an interesting pic
lol
 
@MartinJames oh man, that must suck
 
"Litres? What the fuck are litres? We want fucking gallons and quarts".
 
US units are so dumb =/
 
1 kilogram of pure water.
Which IS kind of handy.
 
@user1158692 I've tried that - "One kilogram of Coors Lite". Didn't go down well, (like the 'beer' really).
 
11:49 AM
order water in the US > get beer
still water
 
Genuine conversation:
-What's an astronomical unit?
-Equals the radius of the earth's orbit round the sun
-Ooh, that's a conincidence!
 
JBL
Lol
 
what's really funny is that the Dutch beer "Heineken" is generally considered a luxury beer in the rest of the world, while everyone here in the netherlands pretty much agrees it's thrash
 
JBL
So naive it's cute.
 
"Fucking kilogram - is that some sort of death notification?"
 
11:50 AM
@nightcracker The UK agrees.
 
JBL
@nightcracker Don't worry, many people here find it thrash.
 
best beer is from chzech anyway
 
@nightcracker Well, I'll agree that it's far better than Bud etc.
 
JBL
Best beer is Whisky.
 
Pilsner (also pilsener or simply pils) is a type of pale lager. It took its name from the city of Pilsen (Plzeň, Bohemia, Czech Republic, where it was first produced in 1842). The original Pilsner Urquell beer is still produced there today. Origin The City of Pilsen began brewing in 1295, but until the mid-1840s, most Bohemian beers were top-fermented. The taste and standards of quality often varied widely, and in 1838, consumers dumped whole barrels to show their dissatisfaction. The officials of Pilsen founded a city-owned brewery in 1839, called Měšťanský pivovar Plzeň (, - now Pil...
I need a cool wallpaper
 
11:53 AM
Well, that beer pic will do, no?
Gotta go get coffee, and do washing up. I found that there were no sandwich-size small plates in the kitchen this morning. After a brief search, I found 14 of them in my office drawer:)
Aaargghh! I just noticed that I have no name on the BSOD. Also, no drop-down activity etc. summary:(
 

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