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8:03 AM
Net lagen alle #Google services ff plat, nu alleen Gmail nog..
^ so I wasn't crazy. "A moment ago all google services momentarily down, now only gmail left..."
Many more reports on twitter
 
@sehe Hey I just met you! <google turns down> <okay...>
 
I thought google was like, never down
 
never gonna give you up
 
I heard they had servers which step up to respond to requests which aren't handled by another machine (in case for whatever reason, it stops responding)
@BartekBanachewicz never gonna let you down
 
@Neil It's called HA (high availability)
 
8:08 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I know that doesn't guarantee that google is always up
 
Well, there might be other reasons. Like network connection to datacenter dies
 
But for all purposes, you'd have a better chance to win the lottery than find google down
 
Technically it's not their fault, if they rely on external provider
I think they are somewhat around 6 class of HA (99,9999%)
 
You can bring them down by spoofing a DNS server
 
No of course not, but I'd hate to be those guys.. you know you're in trouble when you let down google
 
8:09 AM
if people get the wrong IP address, they can't find google
 
@ronalchn Well I meant google itself, not a DNS server
Of course you could make it seem like google were down quite easily
 
make it seem is the key here
 
8:25 AM
Sudden breach of topic, feel free to ignore. But what is a good Shunting Yard Algorithm implementation in regards to an expression parser with possible support for user variables? Not asking for help just felt like discussing the Shunting Yard Algorithm and its various implementations, for example what do you think is the best in regards to speed, precision, and robustness?
 
well, the first thing you'd want to do is build a real AST from the input with a regular parser
then simply output it in RPN form
the entire shunting yard thing seems to be "I need a parser but waaaah I don't want to write one"
 
Yeah, there are libraries like muParser, and MathParserTK, but I REALLY would like to write one from scratch
 
writing a simple expression parser isn't hard
if you're not parsing anything more complex than */+-()
 
I tried my own implementation of Converting from Infix to Reverse Polish Notation then evaluating, but (what you think would be the simple part) I must not have tokenized the input right, it only gave me the first token from the expression as the result, I think I ended up breaking it up into single characters instead of only breaking tokens at an operator. And yeah simple precedence modal like that, maybe with ^ as well, I dont think I will mess with condition operatores
 
You're missing a + somewhere in your regular expression
 
8:32 AM
oh lexing is le doddle
 
but you can't parse something you didn't lex :P
 
Hello
 
Yeah it didnt give any errors, i think everything was right except for how I tokenized the input and i didnt use regex
 
using regex is for noobs
they're terrible
 
8:35 AM
I iterated through a vector<string> for the tokens and added them to a stack<string>
 
uh, yeah, that's le bad
 
@DeadMG Try not using regex and you get back to me
 
the input is std::string, and the output is vector<Token>.
 
Puppy you never greet me nowadays :(
 
@Neil I hand wrote every lexer I ever wrote
@ManofOneWay It's a simple function of, I'm talking, playing, and coding all atthe same time already :P
 
8:36 AM
@DeadMG Then you're an exceptional programmer.. that doesn't by any means mean any programmer could do so
 
Token being type 'char'?
 
@Neil Not really. Writing a lexer by hand is a simple for loop- even for a complex language like C++.
 
Not that I'd recommend consuming lex input with regular expressions, but still
 
@BrandonMiller No, custom struct. You want things like input position (file if appropriate), token type (an enum) and such thins
 
@BrandonMiller actually, if you want a good example, Clang's source is fairly well documented
 
8:38 AM
@TonyTheLion AAARGH
 
@DeadMG Right, on up there on the list of "easiest things a programmer can do" alongside "writing your own database" and "making your own graphics drivers"
 
Clang is a good example of how NOT TO DO anything, ever.
 
how to not, or how not to?
 
@DeadMG And I meant I tokenized the input, added it to the vector, then iterated through that. I can see how that is bad. And that didnt occur to me to use a custom struct thanks
 
@BartekBanachewicz le fixed
 
8:39 AM
@DeadMG well, maybe not code, but it does give you an idea on how things work
 
@Neil Uh, no. Those things are more than like, 200 lines of simple iteration.
 
and seeing it, (even in a bad example) is better than no example at all
 
@DeadMG Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think you think 80% of programmers could write a compiler. It's more like 20% in reality
 
@Neil Well, Sturgeon's Law, I guess.
but it's not a fundamentally difficult thing to do
well, unless you have a fundamentally WTF language, like C++
or have to do your own native code generation/linking/etc.
that shit can get real messy
 
Did school start? There's an unusual number of (derogative of choice) questions...
 
8:42 AM
@LuchianGrigore yaaaaay! give them to me
 
@Neil you have to remember, @DeadMG is a puppy, life looks easy for puppies. They are young and playful. :P
 
Answer ALL the noob questions
 
Is there any better examples than Clang?
 
not that I know of
 
^ Noob question, googling away
not that I havent already though
 
8:43 AM
If we're talking about tokenizing input to identify an identifier from an operand, that's simple. But the range of languages you can derive from that is incredibly simple.
And of course, that is one small step in a series of steps that are increasingly complicated
I wouldn't even attempt writing a c++ parser.
 
no, nor would I
 
Yeah once I tokenize it I get confused on how to process is, like if I see the operator is '+' with the lowest precedence, i dont know how to apply that to the tokens, because the previous token would only be one part of a number and not the number as a whole
 
@BrandonMiller WTF?
the whole point of tokenizing is to reduce the input stream to tokens.
one integer is one token.
 
Yes, but I am unsure on how to use the tokens to decide how to process the input, im probably making absolutely no sense
I found an example, c++ version is at the bottom, it uses vector<string> like I was just told not to do, so it is a bad example but, maybe I can learn from it: technical-recipes.com/2011/…
I'm trying to avoid just copying it down though, i want to learn
 
@BrandonMiller I think you're confusing lexing with parsing
they are different things
 
8:48 AM
yes, that's a disgustingly bad example
 
lexing comes first, then and only then can you parse
 
but then it is Java, so
 
Java is bad and you should feel bad
 
Well at the bottom gives a c++ implementation
I dont use java at all
never have
And okay, lexing tokenizes the input, and im guessing my problem area is how to parse it after that
 
for parsing you need to have a grammar
that defines the rules, so you can validate the expression, statements etc
 
8:53 AM
And for my first like DeadMG said should only use ()*+- operators, and I would have to define operators with precedence, would that count as a grammar? Rules stating one sub-expression must be evaluated before the other?
Maybe this is too complex a topic for me lol. I either over-simply, over-complicate, or just miss a key principal altogether
 
@BrandonMiller You can define these things in the grammar, yes.
 
@BrandonMiller That's in parsing. You can do it with simple recursion if you know how.
 
Has anyone ever heard of the PCZZTSTR type in Win32?
 
Long pointer to a tchar string?
 
@TonyTheLion Probably an old typedef for LPCTSTR. But MSDN lists all those types.
 
8:57 AM
Yeah just googled it, the naming convention for PCZZTSTR seems very strange to me, im not a fan of WinAPI coding conventions
 
@DeadMG That one is not in their list, lol
@BrandonMiller I don't think anyone is a fan, however I do like to know what these types are when I see them.
 
When I google PCZZTSTR it highlights LPCTSTR in bold, so google knows even if MSDN doesnt, lol
 
yea that's what I get when I Google it
 
Thats what I like about Visual Studio, when you hover over a type it shows you the underlying type
 
> Note This string must be double-null terminated.
hmmm
prob that's why it has ZZ in the name
 
8:59 AM
@TonyTheLion Oh, it's used for GetEnvironmentVariables or something.
it's a null-terminated list of null-terminated strings, I believe.
 
Actually, I got it from here looking at the pFrom arg
 
@BrandonMiller Here's a dead simple lexer I just whipped up. pastebin.com/w1jFDhwQ
 
@DeadMG You sir, are a saint. Thank you!
:) Didn't take you long
 
the actual lexing logic is dead simple
 
9:02 AM
it's nothing more than loop over each character, look at what it is, decide what to do with it
 
Well that is my main goal, simplicity. Once I learn the basics I can introduce complexity. Thank you very much.
 
no probs
if you're still looking for it, I'll show you a basic parser too
 
Actually that would help out alot too because (even though I havent had time to sift through the code and try to understand it yet) I'm not sure what to do with the RPN after that
 
RPN is nothing more than "Once I have the expression, output it in a funny way"
it's not fundamentally complex
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not clicking that, I saw that in a Reddit "Scariest website you ever saw" thread the other day.
 
9:09 AM
Yeah I never understood exactly what RPN was. And i notice you used unordered_map's and set's, none of these which the example I looked at provided. Which makes me even further grateful that somebody with actual knowhow whipped that up, so I can learn things the RIGHT way.
Yeah the random link seemed fishy to me didnt click either lol
 
I did't notice what's all about until my friend told me to move the mouse really fast
 
@DeadMG Should I add a precedence enum-type member to the struct 'Token'? as a start of defining the grammar?
 
@BrandonMiller No.
tokens don't give a shit about precedence
the precedence is expressed in the recursive priorities of the parser- nothing more.
 
Lolol, nicely put. Okay well how could you give me an example of a simple Infix expression and its RPN equivelent to get a peek at exactly how "funny" it outputs the expression?
 
yep
but I'm also playing Starcraft 2 and my system is also lagging for some reason so you'll have to give a minute
 
9:14 AM
waah
i stopped playing SC2 for a while. me and my friends are waiting for HoTS
 
Oh no problem, almost feel like I'm bothering you with all these questions anyways lol.
 
is mul left-associative or right-associative?
I always forget the trick to writing the left-associative expressions
whatever, for now I'mma pretend it's left so you can see the example
what's amazing is that I'm winning my game of Starcraft 2
 
Im not sure, sorry I was reading your code trying to understand it better had my headphones out. Its left associative I believe
 
So... I've started going through some of my older answers...
 
that's a good thing
means you learned shit since you wrote them
 
9:26 AM
@LuchianGrigore that's how I feel looking at my uni puzzles
 
@DeadMG what's amazing is that I'm at work. lol
 
@BrandonMiller Take a look at this: pastebin.com/Ys2tWxcc
 
2
Q: What happens if I implement a class in the header file?

peter.slizikWhat does the compiler do if I completely implement a class in its header file? A typical example follows: class MyException { public: explicit MyException(const char* file, int line) file(file), line(line) {}; const char* getFile() const { return file }; int getLine() const { re...

something like this will happen - xkcd.com/292Abyx 1 min ago
 
good one
 
it's missing the odd std::move
and error checking :P
but beyond that, it should be basically functional
 
9:33 AM
@BartekBanachewicz From what Blizzard mentions of HotS, gameplay will be different
 
@Abyx nice lol. And maybe a noob problem but the Token structure has no iterator
 
Which admittedly makes me nervous to buy it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ladders are for scrubs.
everyone else plays custom maps
 
Ah nevermind changed from std::vector<Token::iterator> to std::vector<Token>::iterator lol i mustve screwed with that line
 
@DeadMG We are in Platinum. (or at least were when we stopped playing)
 
9:34 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I was in what would now be Masters.
but more importantly, the default gameplay sucks for everyone who isn't in the top 0.001%.
this isn't news and it won't change in HoTS.
custom maps are where the fun is at
 
Terran will likely be somewhat less OP
 
I did like the upgrade system
 
@DeadMG your programming skills are becoming quite apparent thats some solid code in such a short time Im going to test it now :)
 
and it actually can change a bit
 
are you kidding? Terran is the least powerful of the races right now
@BartekBanachewicz It could but Blizzard already decided not to make the important changes.
 
9:35 AM
@DeadMG that's the point - at which skill level?
In my 1v1 level (silver) terran is OP as f*ck
 
what race do you play?
 
however, if I played a bit more, and get myself to gold play level, I would kick ass
Zerg
 
7RR every time and Terran will cry in a corner.
 
@DeadMG Line 102: if (begin == end) // fuck
Omfg XD, loving your personalized code comments
 
I bet that only about 1 in a million Silver Terrans can cope with a well-executed 7RR
 
9:36 AM
Yea. That was what got me to nearly-gold
 
@BartekBanachewicz Wanna know how I got to Diamond?
this is way back when the game first came out, so people sucked more back then
 
@DeadMG what race do you paly?
 
but I went 2port banshee every game against every race
@BartekBanachewicz Played, and Terran.
 
made 6 cloaked banshees and rushed em to the enemy CC
and won most games with it
 
9:37 AM
Well, I got a friend back in beta, who had 20-win streak in silver by zealot rush
 
yeah
 
I still laugh at those low-level silvers. People in bronze can defend against 9-pool. No one in low silver can
 
@BartekBanachewicz That worked well even in SC1 initially
 
Still, the game is pretty fun imo
 
all you have to do in the lower leagues is make many units and workers
and it doesn't really matter what they are
 
9:39 AM
Well, it took me some time to develop nice timings for 7rr
my friend declined to sit in the same room with me if i got ZvT matchup before
 
lol
 
I easily get emotional ^^
I am kind of captain for our LoL team, and I shout at people quite a lot
But I suck too (not playing 12hrs/day) so...
 
that's very true about Starcraft 2 as well
if you want to do well, you have to practice your macro mechanics hardcore
much of winning isn't in fun gameplay or intelligent strategy or even micro, it's in just pushing the "Make another Marine" button
and Blizzard won't introduce a proper UI into Starcraft 2 to eliminate that
that's why it's never going to be fun unless you practice 12h/day
 
Yea. I first laughed when my friend built his 19th barracks
after a few games, it was nothing special
 
I remember that was the trick in Warcraft 2..
10 orc barracks pumping ogres as fast as you could
 
9:46 AM
Somebody should make a strategy game where players are allowed to write AI scripts to help them
 
Supreme Commander came with a relatively nice UI
for example, repeat production
 
@ronalchn there were many. Too hard for casual people. They prefer smashing keyboards
Well, there would be no point of having 280 EAPM then ;p
I have around 90 when macroing, which is way too low
 
there isn't now
APM isn't fun or interesting, it's arbitrary and pointless
 
@DeadMG Hopefully PA will follow suit.
 
@DeadMG there are no pro players with low apm's
 
9:49 AM
a strategy game should favour the strategist or tactician, not the guy who can push "Make Marine" reliably
 
coincidence?
Well, starcraft is more RT than S
 
that's why it would be fun to be allowed to script some AI
 
by definition, there is no strategy in anything that can be done by a simple script
 
I know
 
@BartekBanachewicz So? All that means is that the current game enforces it.
 
9:50 AM
but the idea is that you can script away all the annoying parts
leaving you to focus on the strategy
 
Still, the games which allow you to be as slow as you want (turn based) are boring as hell
going this way; as the game allows you to get slower, pros will sit idle
right?
 
there's a big difference between not real-time, and arbitrarily forcing you to go 300APM doing nothing.
I wouldn't object to 300APM when it's 300APM of micro or intelligent decision making
 
the point is to macro in battles and skirmishes
 
but there's nothing interesting or fun about 300APM of "Oh my god he builds that worker so fast!"
@BartekBanachewicz No, the point is the battles and skirmishes. Macro is an implementation detail.
 
It forces you to multitask
 
9:52 AM
there are other multi tasks
 
even attacking with two separate forces require considerable amount of APM
 
@BartekBanachewicz Which is fine.
what's not fine is forcing APM for no gameplay value.
 
you are not forced, imo.
 
well, let me see
 
it gives you certain benefits
 
9:53 AM
if you don't waste about 50% of your attention on your base all the time, then you basically lose the game.
 
but anyway, if you aren't able to macro at 250APM, you won't be able to battle at 250
 
I can't really define "forced gameplay" as anything other than "You lose if you don't do it"
 
and while we agreed that you can use 250 in battles
 
@BartekBanachewicz Who cares? Battling at 250APM is fun.
macroing at 250APM is not fun.
 
But if you're able to provide 250 APM, what's the problem with doing it also when macroing?
it keeps the games dense
 
9:55 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Because it's fucking boring.
 
No more that looking at automated script training your units
 
well, you could of course also be spending that time microing the units you already have to their maximum effectiveness
or pondering your next strategic move
or sending multiple drops
or even spreading your goddamn creep
 
you can do it all, if you have spare apm :P
that's the point of being pro
 
no.
 
the game leaves you constant improvement possibilties
 
9:57 AM
macroing isn't improving anythin
 
you can just click faster, or you can click smarter
 
fundamentally, it's a game. it's about being fun. Macroing is not fun. Therefore, it does not belong.
 
makes you more spreaded around the map = more multitasking
macroing can be not fun for you
 
if a game reduces the number of "dumb" clicks you must make, it allows you to make more "strategic" clicks
 
@BartekBanachewicz How entirely arbitrary.
 
9:58 AM
Macroing is not fun How entirely arbitrary.
 
"Hey guys, we made a completely shit game that requires nothing of the player, so instead of changing it so that it's actually fun to play, we'll make the player implement half the UI scripts and call it skill."
 
macroing is not only creating units
it's making upgrades, creating buildings, expanding
it also involves complex decisions and risks
 
making an upgrade is one action in 120 seconds
that doesn't take any APM
besides, it's an important and interesting strategic choice as to when to buy what upgrade
 

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