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user1182183
11:00 PM
I think it's licensed to pandemic studios?
 
user1182183
even if they're dead
 
@GamErix Even if they're dead, their former assets belong to somebody.
 
@melak47 interested in a C# version?
 
It's either in the hands of EA, who acquired Pandemic, or Activision.
 
@sehe of what exactly?
 
11:01 PM
Either way it's not LGPL.
 
Take a guess?
 
uh...sorry, wha?
 
I'd love 1 more upboat. i'd repcap completely unexpectedly, for the first time in a month (or two)?
 
@JerryCoffin I'm writing a replacement for the IOstream concepts. It has similarities, but only vaguely.
 
user1182183
is it bad if I give the googlecode link here? xD
 
11:01 PM
@CatPlusPlus Not all that crazy, really. There are certainly a lot worse designs around. At one point Andre Alexandrescu said he was going to do a better, more modern design, but that seems to have fallen to pieces.
 
@melak47 Pi digits. It was you who had the crashing version, or am I mistaken?
 
@sehe I'm not actually much of a C# person
 
@MooingDuck Oh, okay. For what it's worth, a lot (most) of the formatting is really handled by the locale.
 
@JerryCoffin Boost.IOStreams is workable.
 
@sehe yeah, that was him
 
11:02 PM
I leave for 5 min and suddenly the conversation becomes all codey
 
user1182183
I don't think reading Cpp files is illegal? ; o
 
and I don't get why they say that the higgs boson is everywhere (like the sand in that movie), still they have to try extremely hard at CERN to create one and capture it in their analysis
 
Ell
I get confused between streams and buffers and buffered streams and unbuffered streams :S what does that all mean?
 
@JohannesSchaublitb it isn't hard to get one, the difficulty is getting one that it totally separated, and thus can be pointed at like "There, THAT'S what we are talking about"
 
@sbi I could not resist retweeting some of those theists about the "God Particle".
 
11:03 PM
ohh
 
Ell
@catplusplus what is wrong with std::iostream?
 
@Ell the air you are breathing is everywhere as well, but it's quite hard to catch some air with your hand and prove that it's actually there (without the right sort of instrument(s))
 
@Ell Just about everything.
 
sbi
@jweyrich Yup, saw that. :)
 
Dog Particle
 
11:04 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb afaik they don't capture it, they slam other particles together millions and millions of times and look at the end results to see if a higgs boson was involved in the intermediary state
 
That was the thing, the theory was it was like the force. In basically everything, but had never been documented on its own and thus "proven"
 
@Ell too much
 
user1182183
DramaParticle ; x
 
@JohannesSchaublitb spittle? lol
 
Ell
11:05 PM
@catplusplus for instance? I swear like everything sucks ever.
 

sbi's gripes with IOstreams

Nov 20 '11 at 22:25, 34 seconds total – 9 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Nov 20 '11 at 22:27 by R. Martinho Fernandes

 
if there is something wrong with <iostream> then there is something wrong with the STL, and if something is wrong with the STL something is wrong with the C++ standard - which means that we are using a language that is filled with wrongs, which in terms mean that we shouldn't write C++..
 
@jweyrich hmm
 
like, if Mr. Higgs was a real man, what's this about Higgs' bosom?
 
There is plenty wrong with the standard and the library.
 
11:06 PM
@JerryCoffin yeah, but I'm completely redesigning the whole concept, including locales. As such, I need to write new overloads for operator>>(mystream, T), for many of the C++ standard library types, but that means I have to include huge random swaths of the standard library in my header.
 
@Ell Largely that it grew, sometimes in a rather unruly fashion. It started out as a fairly small, simple set of classes. Then (especially during standardization) various people used it as a vehicle for their solutions, many of solving problems nobody's really found yet.
 
i found out today about Voids xD
 
@refp no, they come from different sources. STL from Stepanov at HP. iostreams from -- whoever did the templatization of Bjarne's work
 
@MooingDuck Separate them.
 
@MooingDuck Yup -- if you're doing to replace it completely, that's going to be nearly unavoidable.
 
11:06 PM
@CheersandhthAlf it was a bloody joke.
 
No need for all overloads to be in a single header.
 
user1182183
ok guyz going to watch futurama, if anyone wants to have a look at the source just lemme know ; p
 
:)
good logic!
 
#include <vector>
#include <io/vector>
 
11:07 PM
@refp no, it's just one aspect of the standard library that's not well done.
 
Simple, efficient.
 
@CatPlusPlus eh, I guess.
 
@CatPlusPlus and tedious..
 
@MooingDuck You forgetting std::vector<bool>
 
gym time. bbl, or not.
 
11:07 PM
@refp Not much more tedious than 10 minute incremental build times
Or writing C++ in general.
 
@JerryCoffin problems nobody's found, such as printing numbers with , as the decimal point?
 
also, they have not definitively stated they found the higgs boson, all they have said is "we have found a new boson that so far seems consistent with the properties of what the higgs boson would have if it existed according to the standard model"
 
@refp iostreams predate the proposal to add STL to C++. Other than (i|o)stream_iterator getting tacked on to let them work together to a degree, they're almost unrelated.
 
then "Higgs wept"
 
@Cicada is this real, a 51-year old woman watching gay porn -- AND frequenting the C++ lounge?
 
11:08 PM
wait.. can people stop taking my obvious trollin' attempts so fcuking serious? I WAS NOT SERIOUS, STOP EXPLAINING SHIT TO ME.
 
@Pyrodante they found it with 5 sigma
 
But that's god particle and you know nothing, ATHEIST.
 
yes, I'm overreacting but this is the internet..
 
Right, they found a higgs like boson with 5 sigma :D
 
it means %99.995 sureness of outcome
 
11:09 PM
@MooingDuck std::num_point or what's it called
 
@MooingDuck no -- that's pretty easy, and quite useful. I was think of things like the idea that public virtual functions were bad, so it's sprinkled liberally with public non-virtual functions that do nothing but call private virtual functions with almost the same name. There is some theory to say it's a good idea, but mostly it just confuses people.
 
They found Higgs bosom.
 
who is atheist?
 
sbi
@CheersandhthAlf Actually, streams were designed and first implemented by some Jerry Schwartz, in the early 80s, I think.
 
Yes, they are sure of the properties of the boson, but whether or not it actually is the higgs boson, and thus does what they think it does, hasn't been conclusively found
 
11:10 PM
@sbi you mean before Bjarne chose << and >>?
 
If I recall, they don't know the spin of the new boson yet. The predicted higgs boson should have a spin of 0, I think.
 
it was still enough to make Higgs weep :D
 
0
Q: How can I improve the performance of a Perl/DBI script that selects 1 million+ rows from one database server and inserts them on another?

JohnPI am using the latest versions of MySql (workbench) Perl, and DBI. I have 2 unique databases each on unique servers. I am querying table1 on DB1 on Server1, loading into an array, then with a while inserting said table into table2 on DB2 on Server2. It is not a direct copy as I am actually doi...

 
@CheersandhthAlf valarray?
 
@JerryCoffin it does give you convenient debugger hooks
 
11:11 PM
how to speed it up? do it all in ONE query, no need for loops..
 
@MooingDuck wait a little, lemme check
 
sbi
@CheersandhthAlf I don't know. Maybe Bjarne suggested those to him? ISTR that in D&E, Bjarne credits one Jerry Schwartz with creating the stream library. ICBWT, it's >15 20 years ago that I read D&E.
 
oh it's on another server, nevermind.. but you can still hack your way through it with mydql
mysql*
 
life is hard, when the eyes want to go to bed, yet your mind wants to complete the code
 
also... Mr Higgs IS a real man
Peter Ware Higgs, FRS, FRSE, FKC (born 29 May 1929) is an English theoretical physicist and emeritus professor at the University of Edinburgh. He is best known for his 1960s proposal of broken symmetry in electroweak theory, explaining the origin of mass of elementary particles in general and of the W and Z bosons in particular. This so-called Higgs mechanism, which was proposed by several physicists besides Higgs at about the same time, predicts the existence of a new particle, the Higgs boson (which was often described as "the most sought-after particle in modern physics"). CERN announ...
 
11:13 PM
@CheersandhthAlf the types I see in the standard that seem to have operator>> overloaded are bitset, basic_string, Date, complex, valarray, and (by implication) "random number engine".
 
He is also still alive, so you can ask him about his bosom if you so choose.
 
@MooingDuck std:numpunct from <locale>
 
someone want to explain to me why Date is uppercase?
 
@SeçkinSavaşçı there is no such thing as "completing code", you are never "done" as a developer.. there is always something that can be optimized, something that can be refactored, something that is causing UB
@MooingDuck in what context?
 
@CheersandhthAlf If memory serves, it was Doug McIlroy who suggested that. I don't think Jerry Schwarz did the original iostreams, but he did the redesign that formed the basis of what's now in use.
 
11:14 PM
waaaiiit... Date isn't a real type
@CheersandhthAlf I don't know what you're trying to tell me
 
"Mastering STL Algorithms", next chapter to facepalm about in "Professional C++"
 
about european decimal comma?
 
in the C++ standard I see that Date has operator>> overloaded. Took me three reads to notice it's a sample class and not a standard type.
 
@refp there is no such thing as "completing code", yet i know where to stop. So please keep your idealist sentences away from me
 
@CheersandhthAlf what about it? Yes, numpunct does the decimal point thing.
 
11:16 PM
right, i thought you were not aware of it
 
@SeçkinSavaşçı you think you know where to stop, but when you stop the evolution of your code you have failed. And please don't come in here trying to write deep shit about your mind wanting to finish the code you are working on but that your eyes are too tired if you cannot handle a little bit of sarcasm sprayed back at ya
 
@refp oo you got it serious? where is the humour?
 
@JerryCoffin thanks. and now i'm a bit confused. i want to get rich and buy D&E... :-)
 
Ell
there is too much of a stressful atmosphere in this room, I'm going elsewhere! cya later guys
 
@SeçkinSavaşçı apparently not where you're from, cause I ain't seeing any.
@Ell sorry, I think I might be responsible for the drama..
 
11:18 PM
@Haha i found a way to keep myself up
 
Ell
,nah its alright I've been awake for like 40 hours so :L
 
i will get depth data from my kinect
 
ah, I'm suddenly reminded of one of the reasons why I dislike CW so much
 
@SeçkinSavaşçı you can contemplate how the integral of 1/x is related to e^x. i mean how you can figure out that connection. we learned that in school but i've forgotten!
 
@Ell I know the feeling, I suffer from quite a bad case of insomnia myself..
 
11:20 PM
You're effectively punished for improving your answers
 
@CheersandhthAlf look for taylor series
 
do it too much and you lose ownership of them
 
@SeçkinSavaşçı but that's like saying, look at the optimized machine code, it's so similar, so the two functions must be related
 
sbi
22
Q: What are "Community Wiki" posts good for nowadays?

sbiIn light of a recent blog entry by Grace Note, The Future of Community Wiki, I think we should reevaluate the old SO FAQ entry regarding CW: What are "Community Wiki" posts? In the single answer to that question, the question Why have Community Wiki posts? is answered with some general blahblah ...

 
i think there must be a higher level, more simple explanation / reason / cause
 
11:21 PM
@CheersandhthAlf no it's not, BTW today i looked at them
well
there can be two strategies to attack
first taylor series
second euler's formula
 
hey.. i have a doubt regarding boost dynamic bitset.
i have created a vector of dynamic_bitset using vector<boost::dynamic_bitset<>> v; how can I specify the size of each of the dynamic_bitsets ?
 
@sbi In this case, I'm thinking of the process of auto-CW'ing an answer once it's been edited a certain number of times
rather than explicitly CW'ing something
 
like in this case boost::dynamic_bitset<> x(5); 5 is the size of the dynamic_bitset
 
i think you can't get to Taylor series (you use derivation for that, building on e^x' = e^x) or Euler's formula without already having that connection...
 
if any of you guys have used it, can you help me with this?
 
sbi
11:23 PM
@jalf I understood. However, I think that CW is a relict from older times, and we might be better off just abandoning it.
 
@CheersandhthAlf I doubt I'd buy it anymore unless I had a lot of extra money lying around. Fortunately, I still have a copy, so I don't need to worry about it. Pulling it out and checking, my memory seems to have held up though. 8.3.1 seems to say Bjarne did the original design and implementation. Then Dave Presetto reimplemented that design without using C I/O "underneath".
 
@sbi agreed
 
@refp On your next edit to that answer, it will go wiki. So you probably don't want to make any more edits.
 
@CheersandhthAlf i'm pretty sure that you can prove them by contradictions
 
sbi
11:24 PM
@jalf The only thing it's consciously used for now is to cut your rep of your question/answer goes viral. Everything else is just historical mechanisms which nobody dares to finally cut off.
 
someone edited this answer, which is fine by me, but when I checked it out, I was reminded that it got auto-CW'ed in the first place, so no rep for me when it's upvoted
 
@Mysticial I didn't even know that was possible to be honest, or.. that many edits on the same post will make it into a wiki post. how many edits does it require?
 
It also confirms my recollection that Doug Mcilroy suggested >> and <<. Then for cfront 2.0, Jerry Schwarz redesigned and re-implemented iostreams again. This was the first that included manipulators (Andrew Koenig's suggestion).
 
@Mysticial I'm guessing 11
 
@refp 10 edits from the owner, or 5 edits from different people.
 
sbi
11:25 PM
@jalf Well, you don't do it for the rep anyway, do you? :)
 
@Mysticial what happens when it goes wiki?
 
@refp You have 9 edits right now for 10 revisions.
 
@jerry wow, if i'd asked an SO question about it you'd get a lot of upvotes for that detailed answer!
 
@refp You get no rep for it.
 
@Mysticial does the rep already acquired get lost as well?
 
11:26 PM
@Mysticial the one I just linked to has had 9 edits by two people (including the me, the original author), and it got CW'ed. I'm not sure if that's because they've been tweaking the numbers since that happened
 
@CheersandhthAlf Probably -- but I'm pretty sure I can live without it.
 
It's also harder for people to click to your profile when it's wiki.
@jalf That's an old answer. They had different rules back then. (though I'm not sure what they were)
By the looks of it, anything extremely popular back then was made wiki.
 
I log into this room and find not one, two, but THREE different starred items all about porn.
4
 
@sbi true enough. But it'd be more accurate to say that these days I don't do it at all. Can't remember the last time I posted a long, detailed answer that was actually worth editing
 
@melak47 Anyways, the C# version is here, I have trouble compiling a recent enough mono on my linux box to do a true comparison in performance, though:
 
sbi
11:27 PM
@Insilico Four.
 
And now it's 4 starrred items. -__-
 
@Mysticial yeah, I don't know either. Never paid much attention to it
 
silly thoughts enter my brain late at night like now, a circle = all the roots of -1
huh
why i think of this, i don't know
 
I'd post about it on meta, but ugh, I just don't want to get involved with that...
 
Now it seems that wiki is definitely doing downhill.
 
11:28 PM
@Insilico porn is common here, get used to it!
 
sbi
54 secs ago, by sbi
@Insilico Four.
 
Was made CW by a moderator. Then it was reverted.
 
@SeçkinSavaşçı That's not the only thing that's common here in Lounge<C++>
 
@Insilico what do you mean?
 
Ironically C++ isn't all that common here.
 
11:29 PM
It was probably made wiki in the first place because it was too "basic" or "stupid" for the answers and OP to get that much rep.
 
@SeçkinSavaşçı Here it's also full of pedantry and links to stupid Java/PHP/C/C++ questions. And ranting. :-P
 
Well today I looked at some C++ code
it was good to see some classes
 
@SeçkinSavaşçı Get desinfected, quick
@SeçkinSavaşçı ?! lol
 
sbi
yesterday, by sbi
We apologize for talking C++. The room will revert to normal operation shortly.
 
it was part of openGL custom library of my friend
I was so stressed to look at them by so much about 3-5 minutes
 
11:31 PM
@jalf The part I hate most about auto-wiki is the 5 editor limit. Because a post can be wikied by other people against your will...
 
then I went to my desktop, continue coding on C
 
@Mysticial true enough, but that doesn't happen often, does it?
 
@Mysticial There was a situation where me and like 5 other editors (or more, I don't remember) fixed a question at the same time and turned it to CW in like 5 minutes the OP asked it.
 
11:32 PM
I think it's the other part that bugs me. If I edit my own answer, that just indicates that I'm actually working on improving it, that I'm taking responsibility for it. Making it CW then is absurd
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb Do you know the guy who organizes this?
 
i finished my beer, so need to sleep now
 
If other people keep editing your question then I guess in a way it is community wiki, whether you wanted it or not. It's still pointless, and it opens the door to abuse, but it makes some kind of sense
 
.. why does the standard (really) require you to write [x] () mutable {}, I'm referring to the empty () when dealing with mutable lambda-expressions?
 
@sbi nope
is he on SO?
 
11:33 PM
@jalf Two of the top questions that I answered are within 1 or 2 edits of going wiki. Not that it affects me much since my answers are still "safe". But I'd much rather the OPs keep ownership of their amazing questions.
 
@Mysticial agreed
 
@StackedCrooked The *static_cast<T*>(mAttributes[&typeid(T)].get()); line scares me. :-P
 
as we all (probably) know it's not required when doing a non-mutable lambda; [x]{}
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb Not that I knew. He founded that Modern C++ discussion group at Xing.
 
what is a mutable lambda
 
11:34 PM
And wiki tends to turn people away. A lot of searches also filter out wikis.
 
@Insilico Yeah. I should probably use map::find there and throw if not found.
 
@CheersandhthAlf normally capturing a variable by value will make it const inside the lambda, making the lambda mutable will let you change this local copy
 
@StackedCrooked There's a void* deletion of the string I think
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Man boobs, ..or ..something.
 
11:35 PM
@refp isn't that catch by reference?
 
@StackedCrooked I don't know, it might be perfectly fine. You might need several comments to explain it or something though.
 
oh i see
local copy
i think that's dumb, one could just use a local variable
 
@sbi ohh i see
 
@CheersandhthAlf int a = 0; [a]()mutable{a =3;}(); /* a will still be 0 outside of the lambda */
 
@Insilico I don't know what I want to use it for :D
 
11:36 PM
Is this our John Smith? Question:
0
Q: How to get from noob to no-noob at 3D, IM, ASM

John SmithA while ago I took a look at c++. Although I can write valid code, I am still a noob. Usually I can say, please don't talk about technologies, I only know code. So, here it goes. What can you :) do about this, e.g. resources on easy to read 'in-depth' background on programming and stuff that...

 
removing mutable from the above will make it illegal to change 'a' inside the lambda
 
@StackedCrooked Honestly it might be easier to just use a hash table or something to store attributes. :-)
 
I bet it's not. His profile says:
 
much better! :-)
 
> Can questions be dumb anyway? Only wrongly formatted if you ask me
 
11:37 PM
@StackedCrooked The string's buffer is not being deleted. Valgrind it :)
Going to sleep, see ya
 
@Insilico Wait I do know. For example: window.setAttribute<Width>(10); window.setAttribute<Height>(20); with Width and Height being "strong" typedefs to int (boost strong typedef).
@kbok std::shared_ptr deletes according to the type given in the constructor.
 
@StackedCrooked What's wrong with writing setWidth() and setHeight() methods?
 
@StackedCrooked Oh, did not knew that
 
@Insilico I have 100+ attributes...
 
@StackedCrooked u should look up my old options class
 
11:39 PM
@StackedCrooked You might have deeper problems then. :-P
 
@StackedCrooked subclass
 
@Insilico I first had the idea when implementing XUL in C++. The amount of attributes there is a given.
 
@StackedCrooked Is the complete set of attributes fixed at compile time or can the runtime come up with new attributes on the fly?
 
@Insilico New attributes should be definable at runtime.
Perhaps not runtime. But outside of the core library.
I.e. I want to allow user-defined attributes.
 
I still get this feeling that you're over thinking this. Use an associative array (e.g. std::unordered_map or even just std::map, with a string used as the key and boost::variant or something for the data. There, you have user-defined attributes.
 
11:43 PM
@Insilico boost::any perhaps. But I think my posted code is fairly concise.
@Insilico And using std::string as key requires that a string is defined for each attribute type. Seems much more overhead.
Anyway, it's toy code really. Toy code that I might perhaps use in the future for something neat..
 
@StackedCrooked Doesn't XUL attributes work via strings?
I'm sure you can figure a way to optimize for it.
 
@Insilico Yeah. Good point! The idea originated when coding on the XUL project (3 years ago), and now I'm considering a slimmed down version.
The solution I ended up using in my XUL lib was a horrible concoction of multiple virtual inheritance.
 
Perhaps you can deal with the strings issue with something like Window's ATOM functions (if you can make it work seamlessly)
 
I don't know about atom functions.
 
@StackedCrooked Eh, it's some ancient mechanism that the Windows API provides so you can use ATOMs instead of const char*s when passing a string to something like RegisterClassEx() or something.
(I don't personally use it)
 
11:50 PM
whoa, my new streams compile! That's unexpected!
 
I think one of these days I'll put together a "windowless" UI toolkit
So instead of each component having an HWND it's just one giant window backed by an HWND and everything inside it is drawn by my code.
Then use the OS's theming functions to make it not crap (i.e. native look instead of the Java Swing default)
 
That's almost exactly what I've been working on for that Kyrostat game. (But a little different.)
Qt also does that.
 
@StackedCrooked Yeah, but Qt is a bit unwieldly if you ask me
 
Event handling could get a little tricky.
 
@Insilico Atoms are just a hash table. I.e., when you add an atom, it inserts a string in the hash table, and returns the hash so you can look that string up later.
 
11:53 PM
Or it may turn out to be a non-issue :D
 
/boogle it ran my first (and only) test case and got the right result!
 
socket.error: [Errno 10022] An invalid argument was supplied FFFFFFF*explodes*
 
I shall remember this day forever.
 
@StackedCrooked Yeah, I'll probably figure out how to handle that without making a mess.
 
5 min. till recap reset... come on... Didn't expect that Pi question to attract that much attention...
 
11:57 PM
How do lightweight components work for things like menus and dropdown boxes?
(where parts of the component may extend beyond the parent window?)
 
Good question.
I think they are native windows.
So not really lightweight.
 
@Insilico I remember making those using resources.
They were kinda built into the VC++. I never figured out how to make a proper window using only code.
 
Or the application is actually a transparent full-screen application. So the fall-out portion simply involves undoing the transparency of that portion :p
 

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