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10:00 PM
@Xeo I suspect that the idea of a std::v2 is not very welcome.
 
@Xeo That's the work of about ten minutes.
 
open(), read(), write() > iostreams
With the low level calls I at least have a chance of knowing what is happening.
 
I like I/O programming.
 
I like GPIO programming
 
I like Python.
 
10:01 PM
I LIKE BACON!
 
I want to master Python.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Do it!
 
Ell
with all of these flaws, why doesn't someone fork c++and fix it, excluding comparability issues. I don't mean like d, I just mean a fixed c++
 
@JimNorton and eggs?
 
boost::asio however is so generic that I think it could be a candidate replacement for the iostream library.
 
10:01 PM
I want to master Bate.
 
@Ell It's called "Wide"
 
But at my job we use C#, JavaScript and PHP :<
I will use Python ASAP.
 
@CheersandhthAlf And eggs too!
 
I always use ØMQ for networking. :p
 
@DeadMG Is Wide the language you are creating?
 
Ell
10:02 PM
@deadmg is it easy to parse? or at least will/is there a library for doing so?
 
yes&yes
 
@StackedCrooked I'm already in trouble with the fact that C++11 breaks binary compatibility. Particularly, if I upgrade my compiler on my build machine, I'll at some point have to upgrade my libstdc++ on my production machine or I'll get crashes. Primarily because of changes to std::string.
 
When will Wide 1.0 be ratified?
 
Ell
also, what format are you using for library files and stuff?
 
lol C++ and binary compatibility
 
10:03 PM
@Managu Yeah, that's a given.
 
@JimNorton It has to be used before ratified. Standards only standardise existing things. It has to exist and be used before it can be Standardised.
@Ell Custom.
 
Ell
is it binary compatable?
 
@Managu Which is why dynamic linking sucks bollocks.
 
@DeadMG Ok, when will a working Wide compiler be available?
 
In practice, it means I'm stuck not upgrading my compiler, as it's been deemed too risky/expensive to upgrade production machines.
 
10:04 PM
no idea
 
Will the Wide compiler use DirectX for its UI?
 
@Managu You need to find some C++11 feature that is beneficial enough to justify the upgrade process. Atomic operations helped me in my pleas.
 
Ell
hehe let's all team up to build a rivalling wide compiler to compete with @deadmg s then intentionally not follow the standard in order to bastardize the language :>D
 
@RadekSlupik Probably not in the Standard libs.
 
@RadekSlupik Wut?
 
Ell
10:06 PM
Damn, i meant >:D
 
Why the hell would a language give a shit about UI's?
 
@DeadMG I meant the compiler itself.
 
Ell
also, GUI in standard lib?
 
The UI of the compiler.
 
compilers don't have GUI :P
IDEs do
 
10:06 PM
I didn't say GUI.
 
Ell
and are you splitting core/standard lib?
 
@RadekSlupik What UI if not GUI?
 
But I though you disliked CLIs. :P
Command-line interface is also a UI.
 
I recently learned that Alexandrescu wanted to write his own programming language. But Walter Bright told him that building even the basics would take years of work and convinced Andrei to use D as a starting point.
 
D++
A better D.
 
10:07 PM
@JimNorton ahem
 
It took years to get C++ and look at the mess.
 
the reality of compiling Wide, as of right now, is that there are some similarities to both C++ and Java in how it's going to be compiled.
 
@sehe ?
 
Ell
@deadmg jit?
 
and/or gonna have to implement more restrictions on what you can do
 
10:08 PM
It took some time for Python too, and look at how clean and awesome it is!
 
@JimNorton that's probably a broken rendition of the onomatopoeia for clearing throat demonstratively
 
Ell
ruby was just awesome to begin with
 
No. Ruby sucks.
 
then it all went downhill
 
@sehe I got that... but how is what I wrote any different than what has come before it? Or do you just like to pick on me?
 
10:09 PM
The language may be fine, but the conventions. Meh.
 
Ell
@radekslupik don't say that! :'(
 
Too much magic. You don't know what's going on.
 
Ell
give me an example where you know not what is going on?
also no rails please I do not know :L
 
@JimNorton well sorry, google "Bate programming language" agrees with me, you have no reprieve :)
 
@Ell Haml for example, by default assumes my file names end in .haml.
 
10:12 PM
@StackedCrooked Me neither.
 
@StackedCrooked Just listen to it while you say repeat the line out loud
 
Ruby does things automatically. I hate that.
 
Err, neither do I
@sehe Lol
 
@RadekSlupik Yeah. I hate surprises
@StackedCrooked :) troll on
 
@StackedCrooked I meant exactly as it sounds when you say it out loud.
 
10:13 PM
That's why I like Python! :D
Also Ruby has no modules.
 
Never mind..
 
@RadekSlupik Fewer surprises. Still not no surprises
@StackedCrooked Master Mind
 
And no, module in Ruby are not modules.
More like namespaces.
 
Perhaps a bad attempt at humour
 
@RadekSlupik Well, classes in Python are hardly classes
 
10:14 PM
in any case
 
@sehe why?
 
I think I've written enough Wide specification now
I have the basic idioms down, and I can always refactor the libs later.
 
@JimNorton I loiked it. Which is why I 'liked to pick on you'. Had a feeling it went unnoticed (though, I wasn't there at the time)
 
Also who cares about classes when you have damn modules? :p
 
@DeadMG Alright get cracking then
 
10:15 PM
@sehe Lol... ok.... :-)
 
@RadekSlupik Well, open classes do count, I suppose. To easy to subvert.
 
@sehe I thought you actually took offense.
 
@sehe I like open classes.
 
@JimNorton I always do
I like open windows
Make it easy to toss stuff out
 
If you access members you are not supposed to access, you're just an idiot, but the implementation shouldn't enforce it.
 
10:16 PM
If you access members you are not supposed to access... you're a sex offender
 
How is sex related to classes in Python?
 
Let me count you the ways!
 
I told my boss about Python and he said that if I would continue talking about it, he will let a python attack me.
 
Yay. Entertainment
 
That's not entertaining. 3:
 
10:19 PM
I think most Pythons in captivity carn't be arsed to attack a human
 
Do post a video please.
 
@RadekSlupik once you stop considering raw efficiency, much get simpler. i think much of python could be reasonably emulated in C++. but one would not easily switch to different mode of thinking.
 
Well I installed Python on his machine.
 
Sounds like it was a mac
 
It was a custom pc running Windows.
 
10:20 PM
WTF is a custom PC. Anyways, I guessed wrong :)
 
I installed a mouse into a Python.'
 
You mean, instilled in the Python a (love for the) mouse
 
Well a PC that's assembled by hand. You buy the components such as RAM, motherboard and CPU and you put them together, rather than buying a complete pc.
 
Gee. What's so different about installing python onto a 'custom PC' then?
 
10:22 PM
@sehe nothing…
 
Oh, glad you mentioned it then.
Ah, perhaps it was a response to contradict 'a Mac' (mac, being known for un-custom-ness)
 
But I wanted to make clear that the PC wasn't a Mac.
 
What was the weather like?
 
Rainy.
 
10:22 PM
I see. Go on.
 
I see too, and I hear, and I feel…
 
@RadekSlupik I just figured. Makes sense. The weird kind, but still sense
 
Now I can program in Python at work. :D
Me gusta.
 
@RadekSlupik You work on the boss's PC then?
 
No.
I installed it on my machine too.
 
10:24 PM
Or you figured out that programming isn't too productive on an iPod Touch
 
I worked on the boss' PC only once.
 
damn
C++ needs extension methods
 
@RadekSlupik Innovation right there. Well, I like Python so keep it up
 
oh well
 
@DeadMG Free standing functions + ADL ~= Extension methods
 
10:25 PM
@sehe python has modules.
 
@sehe Nah. ADL looks up far more than extension methods- often far too much.
 
@DeadMG extension methods?
 
@RadekSlupik Kinda sort of. init.py, isn't it? Beeeejoootiful :)
 
For some reason I find “python” looks nicer than “Python”, typographically.
@sehe __init__.py indicates the directory is a package.
 
@JimNorton They're kinda like ADL now.
 
10:26 PM
@DeadMG Add SFINAE. Yeah, Extension methods would be nice
 
@sehe Still looks up miles too much.
 
Ok, googling "ADL"
 
@JimNorton Syntactic sugare for functions operating on interfaces/classes: you can pass the first argument as-if it was the this pointer, making it appear as a method invocation
 
LDoAN
Look-up dependent on argument names.
Fuck.
 
@sehe Ah interesting
 
10:27 PM
I got the acronym wrong.
 
I suck.
 
22
Q: What are the pitfalls of ADL?

FredOverflowSome time ago I read an article that explained several pitfalls of argument dependent lookup, but I cannot find it anymore. It was about gaining access to things that you should not have access to or something like that. So I thought I'd ask here: what are the pitfalls of ADL?

 
What would the extension methods give you? Does it have real added value?
 
@StackedCrooked Convenience. The prime showcase for it is LINQ in C#
 
10:28 PM
@StackedCrooked Extension methods can control ADL.
 
The pitfall of ADL is that you don't use Python.
 
when you have an extension method, it says "I am an extension method, please look me up."
when you have ADL, it looks up every fucking thing.
 
I guess template<typename> struct Extensions; template<> struct Extensions<MyClass> {}; won't do?
 
@DeadMG very much the compiler-writer POV
 
@sehe No, it's from the user's POV. The existing ADL looks up far too much- for everybody.
 
10:29 PM
@StackedCrooked Not unless you write an extra preprocessor to do the pseudo-method lookups
 
for the compiler writer, extension methods are more work, because you do ADL and then you prune the results for the ones which are not explicitly tagged.
oh, also, extension methods mean the syntax is more generic, because obj.method() can now be a free extension or a free function.
 
@DeadMG I meant the single line. Users of the feature will hardly reason about it in those words. That can be proven anyday by the blank looks you get when you explain Extension method lookup to people that use them every day
 
@sehe Doesn't matter why they reason about it. What matters is: It finds your method that you wanted it to find, within reason, and it doesn't find random methods that happen to look OK.
 
@RadekSlupik it is also more lazable to type. And the interpreter is actually called python, not Python, on any system that cares about case in program names
 
ahem
I meant to say "A member method or a non-friend non-member function."
not a free extension or a free function
 
10:33 PM
@DeadMG Gah. Sometimes it is so hard for you to just listen and hear someone contribute something that you didn't want to say yourself. Accept that you're having a covnersation ?
 
@sehe I don't see the problem. You raised a point, and I raised a counterpoint which does not fall into any (obvious) logical fallacies, thus wasting your time, and it's also quite clearly (intended to be) addressing your point.
what is a conversation if not "You raise a point, I raise a point, you raise a point, until there are no more points to be raised"?
 
@DeadMG I felt you denied me my point. I'm not debating what an extension method IS. I was observing the fact that you describe it in a way that users of the feature would not naturally think of it as. This was somewhat relevant because, in part, this conversation was explaining the notion to people in the room who are not yet acquainted with extension methods :)
 
Ell
talking about stuff and shit
 
> in a way that users of the feature would not naturally think of it as
 
then I simply misunderstood your point.
 
10:35 PM
That made me ponder a while ^ - sounds so contrived, but still correct if I'm not terribly mistaken
 
to raise a more accurate counterpoint, then, extension methods can be easily summarized, for those who wish to know about what they are
"It's like ADL, except you have to tag functions for lookup by this method, because the existing ADL looks up a billion miles too far. Also, it works for member methods not just free functions."
if you know what ADL is, you now know what extension methods are (give or take).
 
@DeadMG Good. Are you referring to idealized C++ integration, or existing implementations in other languages?
 
Oh gawd, he said "member methods". Shame...
 
I actually am not wholly certain of how other languages implement it, except I know that they must be tagged by the writer.
 
I thought we use the term member functions? :-)
 
10:38 PM
In other languages, I'd add that, usually, you have to be explicit about including extension methods (by using the namespace), so ADL is even 'inactive' in that respect
 
@JimNorton Eh. tomato, tomarto.
@sehe Undecided, honestly.
 
member methods is a pleonasm. 'Member function' or 'method', IMO
@DeadMG Well, not in the languages I know of
 
upsides: you can use extension methods you didn't know existed for example, in a template library.
downsides: that would basically necessitate two-phase lookup.
 
@DeadMG so, do you have a code snippet or something that shows off wide?
 
@DeadMG Or just: modules.
 
10:40 PM
for a language which already has two-phase then it would seem that not requiring using namespaces would be the superior alternative.
@sehe Actually, modules can't solve that specific problem. I think. Been a little while since I thought about this specific question.
fuuu, y did I no specify this yet?
 
@DeadMG Well, that would make it hard to reason about the meaning of a piece of code. Since anytime an extension method is added/changed, existing code may break or change meaning.
 
@melak47 Not at the mo.
@sehe The same is true of ADL right now and expanded lookup in general.
 
@DeadMG I meant, with modules, two phase lookup wouldn't be necessary for extension methods. Thinking about templates now for a bit...
@DeadMG Isn't that exactly why ADL is lessthanoptimal?
 
Ell
what are you using for #include or require or using or whatever?
 
@sehe Not exactly.
the reason why ADL sucks is because it exhibits this effect far too much.
but the effect does occur anyplace where you look into more than the strict current namespace hierarchy for names- including base class lookup.
 
10:43 PM
@DeadMG Ok. I see what you mean. You like it all, but are hoping to find the sweet spot.
Or you could say, you don't know what you want :) But the former sounds nicer, don't you agree ?
 
well, there's nothing inherently wrong with it- the probability of two functions taking exactly the same arguments after SFINAE and other things, and both being tagged as extension for the same type, is unlikely.
 
Ell
will wide allow source in the same file as header or whatever equivalent?
 
@Ell Does not have headers.
the other thing is, and this is a Wide-specific problem, it significantly complicates the reflective APIs.
 
@DeadMG Doesn't need to match exactly. As long as the overload resolution is ambiguous (kind of easy to get with all the implicit (narrowing/widening/decay/implicit ctor/cast operators whatnot) conversions applicable in C++)
 
@sehe A lot of those have been killed off for Wide, at least.
 
10:46 PM
@DeadMG In C#, they left extension methods almost completely out of scope in reflection APIs
 
yeah, and my current spec of reflection APIs does not include them either.
 
@DeadMG Good. That's a pre. C# has some implicit conversion operator potential. They have surprising behaviour, like we would expect as C++ people. The good thing is, the culture in C# is such that hardly no-one ever uses them :)
 
Ell
ooh reflection, yum
 
you're right about the sweet spot
you want to have enough of a sweet spot that people can easily extend new classes and use generic syntax to access them
but not so much that you introduce ambiguities by looking up too much stuff.
 
C# basically only lets you detect the 'this parameter' flag for the first parameter on a static method in a static class. That's all. If you wanted to do name resolution, you'd have to implement the lookup yourself (unless, of course, you do the logical thing and reuse the C# compiler as-a-service, since it exists)
 
Ell
10:49 PM
what are the primitive types in wide?
 
@DeadMG This type of library extensions, I associate with Lisp, Eiffel (possibly others), I do really like about those languages. They seem to lead to really well factored libraries that are open to extension. That is really important for the future potential of a language
@Ell they bark
 
Ell
also is it all unicode nice?
 
should i play that album once more, or make the effort to find something else?
 
Anyways, almost 1am again. Need to see my bedlinnen, really.
Cya around
 
@Ell Basically the same as in C++, unless you include the provided reflective types.
bb
@Ell yes
 
Ell
10:51 PM
you know I don't know why im asking these questions
 
@CheersandhthAlf Make the effort, since you ask
 
:)
 
WTF?


#include <string>


typedef struct
{
int xOffset; /* pixel count offset before next digit */
string fName;
char fileName[20];
cairo_surface_t *image;
}ImageInfo;


compile error: error: ‘string’ does not name a type
 
Ell
is there a separate char and byte type?
 
10:52 PM
@JimNorton std::string
 
@JimNorton std::string
 
@Ell I don't have char.
 
Ell
lolfail
 
Oh... derr
 
also you can ditch that silly typedef BS- in C++ you can just say struct ImageInfo { ... };
 
Ell
10:52 PM
@deadmg short? or is that something else
 
@Ell come on, he's trying his first steps (I guess)
 
k', now playing "Suzi Quatro 1973 - Rock Til Ya Drop [@192 kbps]"
 
@Ell I will probably have byte short int long- 8, 16, 32, 64 bits, and unsigned variants.
 
@DeadMG You can ditch it in C but I'm defining a type, not instantiating one.
 
but I am definitely not having a type that is supposed to represent a code unit or anything like that.
@JimNorton Uh, struct ImageInfo { ... }; does define a type in C++.
 
Ell
10:54 PM
@sehe sorry I thought he was an experienced c++ just having a brainfart
 
Ell
how about long long long long long? or long!
 
@Ell No.
 
Ell
will it have Unicode strings then?
 
yes.
 
Ell
10:56 PM
but no Unicode character?...or code point unit thing
 
yep, just codepoints, which I will have as uint probably.
 
Yes, but it also instantiates a variable of that type... I only want define a type, not declare/instantiate it. This is what I'm doing:

typedef struct
{
int xOffset; /* pixel count offset before next digit */
std::string fName;
char fileName[20];
cairo_surface_t *image;
}ImageInfo;

ImageInfo NumberImages[] =
 
@JimNorton It does not instantiate a variable of anything.
struct ImageInfo { .. }; defines a type only.
 
@DeadMG No I'm pretty sure you are wrong.
 
@DeadMG goodie
 
10:58 PM
@JimNorton Dude, think about this for two seconds.
What are the semantics of struct ImageInfo { ... }; in C?
 
Ell
@deadmg why uint? isn't that unsigned int?
 
@Ell Because Unicode codepoints are best represented as a 32bit unsigned integer.
 
@DeadMG if you're preparing for extending unicode up from 21 bits
 
@CheersandhthAlf Well, you sure can't use less than 21bits. 32bits is the next size up.
 
Ell
always?
 
10:59 PM
yes, always.
 

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