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9:00 PM
And since there are relatively few usable operating systems, we're stuck putting up with them.
 
Ell
yeah :/
 
I don't deny any of that
 
Linux has helped with this. There are thousands of distributions to suit different tastes, and each of them can support a wide range of desktop environments.
 
Ell
yeah
but its bad and good :L
 
So there's a greater chance that we'll be able to find our ideal environment eventually, but it also means we spend a lot more time on it.
If the software in question is open-source, you can always change the part you don't like.
So no, I don't think every programmer dreams of making an OS. Every programmer dreams of having an OS that perfectly suits him.
Those who actually do dream of making an OS -- of starting from scratch -- have just given up on finding a good preexisting one.
 
9:09 PM
OK
my OS is Ice OS
 
damn
y I so sick
 
@DeadMG obviously, you interact with too many people physically. You should do that less.
 
@MooingDuck I try so hard :P
 
@DeadMG try harder!
 
Don't you know that people host germs?
 
9:13 PM
0
A: when compiler cannot use RVO or NRVO?

Cheers and hth. - AlfWell, it's not so much whether the compiler can use RVO, but whether it thereby can avoid a copy construction. Consider: struct Blah { int x; Blah( int const _x ): x( _x ) { cout << "Hum de dum " << x << endl; } }; Blah foo() { Blah const a( 1 ); if( fermatWas...

^ I am sure there must be more cases, I remember that there were more cases (someting about arguments?), but I cannot recall them... :-(
Anyway, feel free to amend my answer, please. :-)
 
I think a OS could be made faster by using a lot of already existing libs and tools
 
I think a car could be made faster by using a lot of already existing nibs and tools
 
@TonyTheLion what kind of kernel design are you thinking of?
 
you said what compiler you should use for making a OS
what kind of designed are you thinking of
 
9:17 PM
I'm not making an os
 
OK then
 
Ell
 
@Ell nice design idea
 
Ell
its not mine unfortunately
 
9:20 PM
OK but is still cool
 
Cool, but probably expensive to build.
 
Ell
yeah
 
And maybe not safe. When I'm driving, I can expect to see a green, amber, or red light clearly illuminated. With this you get no such thing. (Obviously I can't directly compare them, but I have a feeling this new one would be harder to read at a glance.)
 
Oh look, an hourglass, ...nice! Dammit I killed a pedestrian again.
 
Ell
haha :L
 
9:26 PM
For red lights it's probably fine.
It's hard to run anyone over if you're not moving.
 
´hello folks
 
hi
 
Hello.
 
@Ell does it work for colour blind?
afaik the current ones work because the position of the light conveys the same information as the colours
 
@awoodland Good point.
 
Ell
9:29 PM
@awoodland I thought of that and I guess no :L
 
You could probably encode that information somehow still
 
any one know the difference between C++ and C/C++ mixed _?
 
@TaylorBioniks There's no such thing as "C/C++"
no more than there is "Spanish/French".
 
yes but people mix them and say C/C++
 
@KerrekSB I consider C/C++ to be code that compiles and runs fine in both languages.
 
9:33 PM
@awoodland We could always keep the red on top, amber in middle, and green on bottom... :P
 
@GManNickG but change is progress
 
The timer idea is nice. You could simply have a vertical line of lights to each side of the traditional traffic light that illuminate in sequence. Ignore them and you're back to the usual.
@awoodland Not always!
 
@EtiennedeMartel I just wasted a lot of time reading that site. 27bslash6.com/easter.html is pretty awesome though
 
Hmm, I'm trying to describe to my mom in Alaska that if yellowstone exploded as big as it did last time that she would be impacted, but it's hard to describe such things.
 
Ell
if yellowstone blows, we're all doomed!
 
9:38 PM
@MooingDuck do you own a globe a hammer and a webcam?
 
@Ell pretty much yeah
@awoodland heh, it won't be that bad. We'll just all die.
here's an estimate of the lava flows and ash cover
 
OK so if a library says it's C/C++ does that mean it's a C library you can use with C but also C++?
 
and we know all the crops in the world will die, so that's something
@TaylorBioniks yes
 
@MooingDuck OK thank you I can now index all those libraries under C
 
@TaylorBioniks yes
All C libraries can be used with C++ AFAIK
 
Ell
9:41 PM
it will cause the global temperatures to plumet too :L
@MooingDuck I thought not when it uses char** ?
 
@Ell global winter for 6-10 years
@Ell C++ can do that too, what's the problem?
 
Ell
isnt that illegal c++? assigning char** to literal?
or something o.O
 
@Ell the signature for main is int main(int argc, char** argv) for C++
@Ell you can't assign char** to a literal in C either
 
Ell
oh :L nevermind
 
@Ell if you mean a literal to a char**, still can't do that in C
 
9:43 PM
@MooingDuck I've seen a few where that's not the case, e.g. struct class; and something with nested structs
 
@MooingDuck Those two comments side-by-side made do a double-take.
 
C lets you assign a literal to a char*, but that doesn't impact the library API, so no problem.
 
well global warming is fake we know made up by al gore
 
It sounded like you were referring to how undefined behavior (C++) can lead to a global winter for 6-10 years.
4
 
@awoodland say what? Can you extrapolate on that
@TaylorBioniks I disagree with the word "fake", but I agree with the overarching idea
 
9:44 PM
struct a {
  struct b {
  } i;
};

int main() {
  sizeof(struct a);
  sizeof(struct b);
}
valid C, not valid C++
 
@awoodland only because b is incomplete
 
@MooingDuck yeah the tempature on the earth fluctuates
 
@awoodland (though I'm not sure why it's incomplete)
 
@MooingDuck not in C it's not, changing to sizeof(struct a::b) is fine in C++, but not C
 
@awoodland oh, alright. Does that affect API's though?
 
9:46 PM
@MooingDuck it does if people write that in a header :)
(I have a real world example on this one: upc-bugs.lbl.gov/hypermail/checkpoint/1063.html)
 
@awoodland testing...
@awoodland confirmed
 
but the easiest way to make some C not compatible with C++ is to use a C++ only keyword as an identifier
 
@awoodland makes sense
hmm, TheoreticalCompSci is not very active...
SO 10th most active question: 1 min ago
TCS 10th most active question: 9 hours ago
 
like string
 
@TaylorBioniks string is not a keyword
@TaylorBioniks template, class, typename, etc
 
9:54 PM
@MooingDuck sorry
I think I maybe in a different language
 
@TaylorBioniks it's fine
asm         dynamic_cast  namespace  reinterpret_cast  try
bool        explicit      new        static_cast       typeid
catch       false         operator   template          typename
class       friend        private    this              using
const_cast  inline        public     throw             virtual
delete      mutable       protected  true              wchar_t
 
@TaylorBioniks in most modern languages it's a keyword
That was a list of the C++ keywords that are(were?) valid identifiers in C.
 
OK thank you much for the info
say are C and C++ the only language that need porting between platform? Linux Mac Windows AROS Haiku
 
@TaylorBioniks some languages can't be ported at all. Others (e.g. Java) aren't anywhere near as portable as some people would tell you
 
10:00 PM
like apple script can't be ported
 
if you write carefully and pick your libraries carefully you can be as portable as Java in C++
@TaylorBioniks yeah and VB
 
and Java I have seen programs work on some systems but not others
 
Do you think I should send some of my sources as attachments, along with my CV, or should I include some web links in the CV?
 
Java > VB.net. Unbelievable, but true.
 
10:08 PM
@classdaknokt what do you mean Java > VB.net ?
 
@TaylorBioniks depends on what you mean by that. Any language with a small library will need to be ported as much as C/C++, unless you use portable libraries.
 
@classdaknok_t The language? Yeah. The framework? No.
 
@Taylor is better than
@EtiennedeMartel Java.net! :D
 
well I am stating they are compiled and run on the hardware and use APIs like Windows API and GTK so on
 
Hi guys
 
10:11 PM
I know they hate it when you say it in here but java is nice for some projects although I prefer C++
 
I agree. Java is very nice for some projects, like those that are crappy.
 
@classdaknok_t "Java" refers to many things: the Java language, the Java libraries, the Java virtual machine, and the Java bytecode.
 
I know.
 
.NET uses different terms for all of those. So comparing a language to a platform isn't exactly fair.
 
.NET uses byte code? I thought that C# and VB.NET just got compiled to machine code and linked to a DLL.
 
10:15 PM
@classdaknok_t .Net uses byte code
 
That's cool.
And what about C++/CLI?
 
The Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) is an open specification developed by Microsoft and standardized by ISO and ECMA that describes the executable code and runtime environment that form the core of the Microsoft .NET Framework and the free and open source implementations Mono and Portable.NET. The specification defines an environment that allows multiple high-level languages to be used on different computer platforms without being rewritten for specific architectures. Overview Among other things, the CLI specification describes the following four aspects: ; The Common Type System ...
 
@classdaknok_t Their bytecode is called Common Intermediate Language, or CIL. It's the same bytecode for all the .NET languages.
 
@classdaknok_t same bytecode, that's how the magic works
 
A .NET assembly is quite different from a native DLL, despite having the same extension.
 
10:16 PM
I linked the wrong wiki at first, it's CLI
CIL is related, but different
 
Interesting. This is similar to Java byte code, right? For example, both Java and Clojure code compile to Java byte code and you can use both languages in the same program?
 
@classdaknok_t Yep.
 
@classdaknok_t yes, but how it handles generics is 100% different
 
@MooingDuck that's a detail.
 
JVM is like CIL
This list of JVM Languages comprises computer programming languages that are used to produce software that runs on the Java Virtual Machine (JVM). Some of these languages are interpreted by a Java program, and some are compiled to Java bytecode and JITted during execution as regular Java programs to improve performance. The JVM was initially designed to support only the Java programming language. However, as time passed, ever more languages were adapted or designed to run on the Java platform. High-profile languages Apart from the Java language itself, the most common or well-known JV...
 
10:21 PM
@TaylorBioniks The JVM is like the CLR.
 
@classdaknok_t it's an important detail
 
Bytecode seems a lot more compact than universal binaries. :p
 
@EtiennedeMartel sorry mess up name
 
@MooingDuck No, CIL is the bytecode. CLI is the spec for anything that runs on the CLR.
 
again
 
10:22 PM
n/m
 
and to think I researched this stufff
 
@classdaknok_t they're much much smaller
 
But how does Windows run a .net executable? It needs to contain some machine code to start the JIT, right?
 
@classdaknok_t sure, same with Java
 
But then you still need a different exe for each architecture.
 
10:24 PM
@classdaknok_t sure, same with Java
 
@classdaknok_t it just loads .net and asks it to execute itself
 
@classdaknok_t Sure, but it's O(n) in the number of machines you run on, because the one .NET framework install will execute as many .NET images as you like.
 
I am looking at using byte code in my OS
 
whereas every native application must, at minimum, recompile for all target platforms
 
@DeadMG the problem I saw was the exe produced when you hit build in VS. You cannot have one .exe which runs on multiple architectures, unless it's a universal binary. You need some machine code to start up .NET, right?
 
10:27 PM
@classdaknok_t oh, no. It doesn't make an exe, it makes a bytecode file, which is opened by the .Net framework. Like a .doc opens with MSWord
 
so it'd be cross arch
 
@MooingDuck no, it makes valid PE with machine code stub
 
@Abyx does it?
 
@MooingDuck .NET Paint, for example, is clearly distributed as a .exe.
 
@MooingDuck yep, it does.
 
10:29 PM
@Abyx so .net is not compile once run anywhere, or is the PE part of the spec?
 
@MooingDuck it's not "compile once run anywhere".
 
@TaylorBioniks The OS just natively runs java/.net?
@Abyx oh, always thought it was
 
Didn't they try to make a Java OS a while back?
 
was planning my Own byte code but i am open to ideas
 
And I think Microsoft was experimenting with a C# OS.
 
10:30 PM
@TaylorBioniks hint: LLVM Bytecode. :p
 
@TaylorBioniks that's the opposite of cross arch
@Maxpm several times
 
@classdaknokt so you say I should use LLVM's byte code_
 
@MooingDuck it is x-arch, just not x-OS.
 
Off-topic: Oracle is a stupid jerkface.
 
@classdaknok_t Actually, there's a special flag in the PE header which indicates to Windows that it's a .NET executable. Arguably, you could simply load it up on Linux.
 
10:31 PM
@classdaknok_t oh, right, duh
 
@Taylor Bioniks I guess (though I'm not sure) clang can compile to it, so you can support C and C++, and you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
@DeadMG so Windows does everything for you?
 
@classdaknok_t I wouldn't say that. All it does is explicitly yield to the CLR.
 
Cross-architecture code is Intel's greatest enemy. 3:
 
however, as far as I'm aware, they contain not one jot of actual native code
 
That's interesting.
So Windows actually has built-in support for running the .NET runtime?
 
10:35 PM
yep
although as far as I'm aware, that's everything
 
Reminds me of a story about how an old version of Windows checked to see if a certain game was running, so it could compensate for a bug.
 
I've never heard of such a story
 
New Windows versions have tons of compatibility shims for buggy software.
 
I know that they preserve old behaviour for compatibility in general
 
The last time I used Windows was more then a month ago. I installed VS and I wanted to learn C#, but I couldn't stand VS’ GUI. xD
 
10:38 PM
I've never heard of them specifically working around a specific bug in a specific app, though
 
They actively patch behaviour depending on how software behaves, AFAIR.
 
@classdaknok_t Yeah, it's pretty painful.
Speaking of which, Sublime Text is beautiful but it's $60. :(
 
What's that?
 
A "super editor."
Not quite an IDE.
 
Poor man's vim.
 
10:40 PM
I like Visual Studio
 
somewhat, anyway
 
Except poor man wouldn't have 60$, so it makes little sense.
 
"Poor man's vim" is $60 more expensive than vim.
 
visual studios replacement? monodevelop.com
 
10:41 PM
@classdaknok_t That's why it doesn't make sense.
 
I'm used to Xcode, Coda and Emacs. They all use Emacs keystrokes, but when I tried to hit Ctrl-A in Visual Studio, instead of going to the beginning of the line, it selected all text. >.<
 
I really don't see what's so great about it. Silly eyecandy tabs?
 
Registration isn't really enforced; a pop-up will occasionally appear asking you to register, but that's about it.
 
@classdaknok_t There's plugins that give VS Emaks keyshortcuts
 
Yuck, multikey shortcuts.
 
10:43 PM
@classdaknok_t VS's debugger is where it's at
 
Well, it has sane keyboard shortcuts.
 
Yes, Ctrl+K, Ctrl+U is very sane.
 
@Maxpm they don't want sane, they want emacs
 
I'll make my own IDE some day, and it'll have clang integration, a fork of LLDB which knows libc++ and Emacs keystrokes. That's all I need.
 
If you have rubber fingers.
 
10:44 PM
@classdaknok_t Why would you make your own IDE just to use the crappy languages clang supports? ^^
 
I can see how it's better than ~.
 
@DeadMG those languages + GLSL are all languages I need. :P
 
Not worth 60$, that's for sure.
 
Oh with "Emacs shortcuts" I only meant those for text editing, of course. Ctrl-K, Ctrl-A, Ctrl-E are the once I use the most. Saving I do with Ctrl-S, not Ctrl-X, Ctrl-S, which is just silly.
 
maybe $12 or $15
 
10:47 PM
what is it with windows media player when it duplicates the playlist (like when i drag a folder onto it, it lists all songs followed by all songs once more)?
 
My IDE will be $-99,–, because I'll be happy enough if somebody uses it.
 
@CheersandhthAlf Why would you use WMP?
 
well i started disliking both winamp and vlc and that monster from *nix
 
@Alf use iTunes. xD
 
and i found the sound is good enough when i just turn off all effects in sound card
 
10:49 PM
foobar2000.
 
@classdaknok_t Why would you want to integrate a compiler? :\
 
@Maxpm clang does syntax highlighting, code completion and real-time diagnostics too.
 
@CatPlusPlus gapless playback, then i can play pink floyd albums, heh
 
Oh. That's neat.
 
@Maxpm Because how else are you gonna get sexy code completion and syntax highlighting without killing your performance?
 
10:51 PM
I don't really care for code completion, but real syntax highlighting might be worth it.
 
@CheersandhthAlf Disable fade in/out and it should be gapless. :P
Not if highlighting one file takes 10 minutes.
 
aaaah, piracy
what would I do... without you...
 
clang's code completion needs some fixes though, especially with function pointers.
 
I use VLC and banshee
you know I tried using clang to parse C++ it never worked
now I am trying to use gcc
 
@TaylorBioniks it's really a piece of cake using clang.
 
10:54 PM
nice album
01 Career Of Evil.mp3
02 Subhuman.mp3
03 Dominance & Submission.mp3
04 M. E. 262.mp3
05 Cagey Cretins.mp3
06 Harvest Of Eyes.mp3
07 Flaming Telepaths.mp3
08 Astronomy.mp3
 
Using GCC is horrible, because GCC's AST is fake. If you have x - x in your code, GCC's AST will contain 0, for example.
 
@classdaknokt really I could never get it to work
 
@TaylorBioniks create a CXIndex, add one or more CXTranslationUnits and walk the AST using clang_visitChildren. Done.
Assuming the C API.
 
I seam to recall it never compiling right so I ended up working with GCC @classdaknokt I may try again
 
@TaylorBioniks CLang has only really become competitive with GCC since about v3 or v3.1, AFAIK. Prior to that, it was a little underfeatured in terms of C++11 support, for example.
 
10:57 PM
@classdaknok_t Nasty.
 
@Maxpm it's done in order to prevent from using GCC in proprietary tools for parsing, syntax highlighting, real-time diagnostics etc.
 
That's a little silly.
 

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