« first day (523 days earlier)      last day (4430 days later) » 

11:00 AM
"man-eating chicken" would have to be translated into something much more like "a chicken that eats men".
 
Every language has ambiguity, more or less.
Except Lojban.
 
@CatPlusPlus Aw, I wanted to mention that bnut my computer is locking up :(
 
I had to double-check the name.
 
:'( this code makes no sense
 
sbi
@thecoshman It's probably only a problem in languages that have lost most of their grammar, like English.
 
11:06 AM
@sbi only (just) speaking English, I am unaware we lake lack grammar
 
@CatPlusPlus I love the relativity-aware tenses.
 
English is very simple.
All of your languages are bleak compared to the monstrosity that's Polish.
 
@thecoshman This is the closest I could find: maps.google.com/…
 
@CatPlusPlus that just makes me feel even more linguistically retarded
 
@CatPlusPlus All your languages are belong to Polish?
 
11:08 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes oooh, I see what you did there
 
sbi
@thecoshman For example, in English only the order of the words determine what is subject, verb, and object in a sentence: "The man killed the lion" defines who killed whom by word order. You cannot switch the word order without changing the meaning. A bit of that is left, however, in "who killed whom", where subject and object are identified by modifying the word. In my language, they are also identified by word modifications when they are nouns.
 
The lion by the man killed was.
 
@sbi I think I remember you saying this (or something similar) before
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Really? Is Polish much harder than other Slavic languages?
 
@sbi It's one of the hardest in the world, AFAIK.
 
11:10 AM
@CatPlusPlus Killed by man was the lion
 
It's ridiculously complex.
 
@CatPlusPlus Like C++.
 
Yes, and most users don't know squat about it, too.
 
All I know is, Polish makes use of the letter 'Z' which as far as I can tell was only added to English for the Americans to then ram into every word under the sun
 
sbi
@thecoshman You are right: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=561155#561155 I had forgotten.
 
11:12 AM
@sbi We have dropped that too.
Is that why we see many German words ending in -en?
 
Sort of. It's also used for some plurals though.
@RMartinhoFernandes What about order of adjectives relative to the noun they qualify? Is that fixed? Does it depend on the adjective?
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Why is that? I know you make your funny Slavic sibilant sounds by piling letters onto each other, rather than modifying them (as in, say, Czech), but other than that — what's so complex about it? Do you have a grammar more complex than Russian? Or what is it?
 
@LucDanton We can have them before or after. Most Portuguese (as in, from Portugal) speakers use them after the noun, and before only for "special effects". But Brazilians use before more often.
 
@sbi My linguistic abilities are pretty much restricted to formal languages, but that's the common opinion.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Is that the case? Mhmm. I think the unmodified form of all verbs end in -en. Plus it's one of the common pluralization suffixes for nouns. That's all I can think of right now.
 
11:15 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes so you can say both "apple red" and "red apple" and it makes sense?
 
@thecoshman Yep.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I find that sort of thing funny. Sometimes the 'wrong' order sounds terribly awkward, sometimes it adds some subtlety. But it's all arbitrary! That has to make learners mad.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes crazy... could you even say "tasty apple red", an adjective either side describing the same noun
 
@thecoshman In Europe you would probably never hear the latter in oral speech, though.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Huh? Your written English to me seems like that of a native, and I am absolutely sure you must have had at least one other Slavic language, very likely Russian, for at least a few years in school. So you should be able to compare a bit of grammar.
 
11:16 AM
@thecoshman Yep.
That would work to put emphasis on the "tasty".
 
I only know English and Polish. School tried to teach me German, but failed miserably.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah, as far as I know it is a very English thing to start describing something before you say what it is you are describing
 
@thecoshman Well, Germanic languages are known to occupy a lot of mental stack space.
 
@LucDanton Exactly!
 
@CatPlusPlus you also know C++ and Python :P
 
11:18 AM
does anyone here have ever heard of Business Client Platforms ? what is it?
 
I know far more formal languages than natural ones.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus So what you are saying about the "insane complexity" of Polish is just unfounded hearsay you can't even back up with some general statements as to where the complexities lie?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I think in English, it would just be order, so "tasty red apple" stresses the fact it is tasty whilst "red tasty apple" is stressing the fact it is red
 
"red apple" sounds incredibly awkward. But "tasty apple" is fine if you want to reinforce the "tasty".
 
sbi
@LucDanton English is a Germanic language. Partly, anyway.
 
11:19 AM
@sbi It's just that feeling, comparing English to Polish.
 
There is no rule to it, only... intuition.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes do you mean it sounds awkward in Portuguese or as English, to you.
 
We have 7 cases.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Well, but English did dump most of its grammar! Of course, a language with proper grammar feels more complicated.
 
> Witam, jestem Tony
 
11:20 AM
Word prefixes and suffixes.
 
@thecoshman I mean the literal Portuguese translated into the same order.
 
Polish, supposedly
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus That's only one more than Russian, but three more than German.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes French has some 'poetic' rules, too. If an adjective must quality the word gens ('people'), then it must use a feminine agreement if put before, but a masculine agreement if put after. gens being itself is masculine (and always plural). Does Portuguese have this kind of stuff, too?
 
@LucDanton You mean like belles gens and gens beaux?
Woah, didn't know that.
No, in Portuguese adjectives always match the nouns in number and gender.
 
11:21 AM
erm... what do all those words mean? belles gens and beaux
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes. gens beaux sounds awkward though.
 
> Я живу в Бельгии, я здесь родился
Russian
 
@thecoshman belles and beaux are feminine and masculine plural forms of "beautiful". gens is people, I think.
 
wait... your crazy languages have both singular and plural forms of adjectives?!
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion From what I remember of the little Russian they managed to put into my head a few decades ago, "witam" is likely a welcome greeting, and "jestem" seems to relate to the Russian word for "be", so it's probably "Be welcome, Tony". (@Cat?)
 
11:23 AM
@sbi Well, look at some teaching materials and decide. I can't explain it, it's just my subjective feeling. :(
 
and I thought the masculine/feminine thing was strange enough
 
@thecoshman Masculine and feminine, singular and plural, in all four combinations, yes.
 
@thecoshman That's a feature of both Romance and Germanic languages. English is the exception in having dropped that.
 
I don't remember any rules when it comes to either English or Polish.
 
@LucDanton I haven't spoken French in years (since my cousins learned Portuguese), so my awkwardness-meter may be off.
 
11:24 AM
@sbi oh wow
 
I use them both purely intuitively.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Does that mean I'm correct on that?
 
@LucDanton Romance? I assume you don't mean the sort of thing girlfriends hanker for
 
lol
The Romance languages (sometimes referred to as Romanic languages, Latin languages or Neo-Latin languages) are a branch of the Indo-European language family, more precisely of the Italic languages subfamily, comprising all the languages that descend from Vulgar Latin, the language of ancient Rome.[M. Paul Lewis, Ethnologue: Languages of the World Sixteenth Edition http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/distribution.asp?by=size] There are more than 800 million native speakers worldwide, mainly in Europe and the Americas, as well as many smaller regions scattered throughout the world. Becau...
 
@thecoshman I can't be held responsible for that!
 
sbi
11:25 AM
@thecoshman He was referring to Latin-derived languages. I'm not sure what the proper English term for them is, though.
 
@sbi you are some sort of language fiend
 
Latin or Romance is fine.
 
@sbi It's supposed to be "Hi, I'm Tony"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oooh Romanic, that make sense
 
But "Romance" sounds much more poetic.
 
sbi
11:25 AM
@TonyTheLion Damn!
 
@sbi "Jestem" means "I am".
 
though, AFAIK, usually Romanic would mean from Romania
 
@sbi close enough
 
@thecoshman Wouldn't that be Romanian?
 
sbi
@thecoshman Yeah, of course. That's why I was so great in translating that phrase, @Tony threw at us...
 
11:26 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes probably :P
 
meh I have to find a way to call a C function with parameters in ARM assembler
 
@sbi perhaps my use of fiend through you there
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Linguistically, perhaps. Only semantically it is the opposite of what I said. :(
 
@sbi yea
 
lol
@sbi It's appropriate if Tony is talking to himself.
 
11:27 AM
oi
I don't talk to myself, I only talk to my other self
We talk a lot
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Which is a form of "be", really, given that Slavic languages often drop the subject ("I", here).
 
Yeah, that.
"[Ja] jestem".
We have a lot of default stuff like that, I don't even think about it.
 
I find it strange to have a German speaking bonobo, a Polish speaking cat, a Flemish speaking Lion and a Portuguese robot all talking to each other in English
10
lol
@CatPlusPlus yea because it's your native language
 
English is simple enough to work nicely as an international language.
 
@sbi It annoys me that in English you often (always?) can't drop the subject.
 
11:30 AM
true that
 
@TonyTheLion I find it strange that all speak it better then me, a supposedly native speaker of English
 
sbi
@Tony: As to your Russian sentence ("Я живу в Бельгии, я здесь родился"): I'm not sure what "родился" is. My initial reaction was to translate it as "female pupil", but that would be hilarious.
 
@thecoshman lol :P
 
@thecoshman You're in Ireland, you can use that as an excuse.
 
@sbi I can't remember what I put
use Google Translate
that's where I got it
 
11:31 AM
Lol.
 
I love the Irish accent
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Too bad. @Cat, do you know what that word means? It's probably pretty similar to Polish.
 
it's hilarious
 
Oh man, Irish is a total mind fuck to me
 
11:31 AM
@TonyTheLion :O
 
not in a bad way
in a good way :)
 
not surprisingly enough, I have started to pick up a few words
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus It's actually quite common in Slavic languages, I think. Russian does that, too, and I think I noticed it in Czech. And it's a common sign for a native Slavic speaking English (or German) to drop the subject of the sentence.
 
@sbi doesn't even look similar to Polish, assuming @Cat knows how to read the Russian letters, I assume he won't know
 
but that is no chance I am going to be able to write any of it :P
 
11:33 AM
@sbi Sorry, I don't know Cyrillic.
 
@TonyTheLion "Russian letters" are called Cyrillic.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes excuse my ignorance
 
@TonyTheLion Now you know!
 
well thank you
 
erm... what does it mean to drop the subject form a sentence?
 
sbi
11:34 AM
@CatPlusPlus Oh my.
@thecoshman Don't know?
 
@thecoshman "Was cooking." instead of "I was cooking."
 
oooh
 
I believe the former is not proper. Right?
 
that's nothing, 'northerners' drop words left right and centre.
 
sbi
Ah, I looked it up, and it means "(been) born". (I'm not sure, but the "-я" suffix might point you as a female.) Anyway, then your sentence means "I live in Belgium, I was born there", does it?
 
11:36 AM
"Why don't you put the kettle on for a cup of tea" turns into "put kettle for cupa" or near enough
 
posted on March 21, 2012

Swapping is often faster than assignment — a fact that often allows algorithms that swap to be dramatically faster than they would be if they used assignment. Here's why.

 
@thecoshman Well, I suppose all languages get butchered one way or another in oral form. But in written form the rules are stricter.
 
and you have to say it with the last of your breath
 
@RMartinhoFernandes did you go out yet to buy food?
 
@TonyTheLion lol, yes, I did.
 
11:36 AM
oh good :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes not actually seen northerners write...
 
@sbi yea something like that
 
One thing I do no about Irish, is the lovely way you express emotions. If you wanted to say "I am scared" it would literately translate back as "The fear is on me"
 
@TonyTheLion I still hope they leave Darwin on in the new edition … I quite like the old chap on the tenner
 
11:39 AM
guys, would you think that every good programmer should at least have heard of SO?
 
@KonradRudolph haha :P
@KonradRudolph how you finding Cambridge or wherever it is that you are now?
 
@bamboon SO is all over Google!
I would think it very strange if someone didn't know about it.
 
@TonyTheLion surely though, if Turing was on a "10" it would be called a "2"
 
@bamboon Nowadays? Probably yes. If you haven’t heard of SO, chances are, you’ve never googled a problem. Bad sign.
@TonyTheLion Cambridge, yes. It’s awesome! Well, small-town awesome, but still.
 
@KonradRudolph kewl :)
 
sbi
11:40 AM
@thecoshman I suppose this would never become a common thing in English, because your verbs do differ almost not at all for different subjects. Well, except the -s suffix for the third person singular, that is. "has done it" should refer to him or her or it, but "have done it" might refer to you or me or them or us... In Slavic languages, this isn't a problem, because the subject conjugates(?) the verb.
 
Yeah, Cambridge is such a lovely place. Bicycles ever where though
 
who here has been to Silverstone race track?
 
makes sense
 
sbi
@bamboon Yes, every good programmer should at least once have produced a stackoverflow.
 
11:41 AM
@thecoshman Ugh, the bikers are horrible. Of course, I also drive the bike everywhere and I’m not horrible. :p
 
@sbi ^^
 
sbi
Well, maybe except programmers in declarative languages. It might be hard to produce a stack overflow in those. But then, a good programmer should have dabbled in non-declarative languages.
Anyway, I should get some work done now. I have limited time today.
 
oh work
 
sigh... I suppose
 
11:45 AM
Work? What's that?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes one step forward, two step backwards, but you get some money for it
 
Work is what you avoid doing by being here.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Don't worry, it's only for grownups.
 
@CatPlusPlus basically
 
11:46 AM
I have weekend.
 
@thecoshman The problem is, people think this is a joke. In reality, it’s dead serious (albeit slightly exaggerated). People always insist that their problem domain is too complex for simple interfaces.
 
Sweet, I can translate this kind of (lame) puns to English.
In physics, mechanical work is a scalar quantity that can be described as the product of a force times the distance through which it acts, and it is called the work of the force. Only the component of a force in the direction of the movement of its point of application does work. The term work was first coined in 1826 by the French mathematician Gaspard-Gustave Coriolis. If a constant force of magnitude F acts on a point that moves d in the direction of the force, then the work W done by this force is calculated W=Fd. For example, if a force of 10 newtons (F=10 N) acts along a path o...
 
GCC can compile for ARM right?
 
People are stupid.
@TonyTheLion Yes, but you have to build the toolchain with that specific target.
 
@KonradRudolph it looks just like my companies shit product
 
11:47 AM
@KonradRudolph It's ha ha only serious.
 
GCC is not retargettable, unlike Clang/LLVM.
 
@KonradRudolph Do you mean that's the excuse they use after having produced a complex interface?
 
@CatPlusPlus and that involves?
 
@LucDanton or when deciding to not even try to make a simple interface
 
@TonyTheLion Black magic and strange incantations. :P If you're on Linux or OSX it's pretty straightforward, but building GCC on Windows is a pain.
 
11:48 AM
I can see how that's not helpful.
 
@LucDanton Yes, and for not even bothering to try to develop a better UX
 
And building cross-compiling GCC is double pain.
 
@CatPlusPlus damnit
 
I don't even remember the exact procedure any more.
 
What you playing with @TonyTheLion
 
11:49 AM
@CatPlusPlus The most trouble I've ever had regarding that is that I've never, ever found a definition to help me understand what 'Canadian cross' means.
 
Canadian cross is when you build a compiler on A, that runs on B and produces code for C.
AFAIR.
 
I know. But why is it called that?
 
Because it sounds stupid.
 
@thecoshman not playing with anything, work
 
Because Canadians.
It was a reference to some political shenanigans IIRC.
Don't remember the details, don't care enough to search.
 
11:51 AM
See? That's a horrible metaphor (or whatever) to pick for an international audience.
 
> The term Canadian Cross came about because at the time that these issues were all being hashed out, Canada had three national political parties.
 
Wikipedia: The term Canadian Cross came about because at the time that these issues were all being hashed out, Canada had three national political parties.[1]
Lol.
 
Same second. It's a tie.
 
11:52 AM
Yeah, right.
 
I have exact timestamps.
Well, to Δt = 1s, at least.
 
The citation for that is a page that reads "The requested URL /crash/mirror/www.objsw.com/CrossGCC/FAQ-4.html was not found on this server."
:3031515 Erm, you lost.
 
@Sbi lol, just a little late there :D
 
@thecoshman I won at telling @sbi that he was late!
 
11:53 AM
you guys are worse then little children
 
@RMartinhoFernandes pointing it out can never be done enough :D
 
Are C++11 user defined literals evaluated at compile time or at runtime?
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion "than"
 
@TonyTheLion No.
 
@bitmask Depends.
 
11:53 AM
@sbi oh you
 
Can be either.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes.
 
time for lunch num nums :D
 
@bitmask Usual constexpr stuff applies.
 
If not constexpr, runtime. If constexpr, called with compile-time arguments and not too much recursion, compile-time.
 
Xeo
11:54 AM
1
Q: Are user-defined-literals resolved at compile-time or runtime?

XeoI wonder, because predefined literals like ULL, f, etc. are obviously resolved at compile time. The standard (2.14.8 [lex.ext]) doesn't seem to define this, but it seems to tend towards runtime: [2.14.8 / 2] A user-defined-literal is treated as a call to a literal operator or literal operat...

:)
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, I was wondering if the constexpr was already implied. But apparently I have to state it myself
 
There are template forms of integer UDLs, which get the integer as template arguments.
 
@Xeo: Whoops! Thanks for the link.
 
UDL operators don't differ from other operators in that respect.
 
As digits.
 
Xeo
11:55 AM
@CatPlusPlus I want that for strings. :|
 
@Xeo Haha, fat chance.
C++42: we've finally fixed string handling.
5
 
What? I'll still be alive by then.
 
C++69: Support for Unicode 1.0.
 
@CatPlusPlus Anyway, by that time, I don't care about C++ because DF will be finished.
 
is there a GCC flag for generating the assembler output?
 
11:58 AM
And DF being finished is more likely to happen than sane strings in C++.
 
@TonyTheLion -S.
 
Meh, what are we missing encoding-wise? Native encodings <-> Unicode? A big stumble admittedly, but that means compile-time Unicode doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
 
You can use char32_t at compile-time. You can't use char32_t const* (decently), but the same goes for char const*.
 
There needs to be a division between Unicode string and an encoded string.
 
Anyway, I'll bet that we'll still have the need to bash singletons by 2069.
 
12:03 PM
You can, but 'manually'. What's the point? I'd rather deal with const char32_t (&)[N].
 
@CatPlusPlus Certainly not necessary at compile-time.
 
Well, I'm talking Unicode in general.
At compile-time there should be no encoded strings.
 
Go for std::pair<string_type, std::locale const*>!
 
OMG, what are you doing.
The children.
 
Locale system in C++ is something I've never used and don't really know how to use.
And pointers there scare me.
 
12:05 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I can't remember if there's a better way to pass the codecvt stuff around, so I brought the whole locale.
 
@LucDanton FYI, I have no idea what that means :)
 
Well.
 
I am in the same position as the Cat.
 
Also, I propose a "die, wchar_t, die" movement.
 
std::basic_string is an encoding-agnostic container.
 
12:06 PM
std::basic_string should be called std::byte_array.
 
So if you want to associate an encoding with it you can do just that.
 
@LucDanton I know that, but I don't know what a codecvt or a locale is in the standard library.
 
@CatPlusPlus std::u32string doesn't store octets.
 
(And you don't need to explain. I'm not that interested)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Why does it matter what form the encoding information takes?
std::pair<string_type, some_scoped_enum_oh_how_i_love_information_theory>?
 
12:08 PM
I don't know, you were the one that mentioned codecvt.
 
Do you understand what 'encoding-agnostic container' means?
 
I had an idea how unicode_string and byte_string might look like, but tiiiiiiiiime.
I'll die before I manage to implement 1% of my ideas.
 
It looks like std::string and std::u32string. That's not a wheel to reinvent imo. Better have native encodings <-> unicode conversion helpers.
 
@CatPlusPlus That's okay. Just start with the 0.01% worth doing :)
 
u32string is one possible form of decoded representation.
And also, no UCD.
 
12:11 PM
Want type erasure?
 
Unicde-Compulsive Disorder?
 
Factor has a nice scheme optimised for space.
 
It means the container by itself doesn't have a known encoding? It just stores things, doesn't give them meaning.
 
7 bit characters + aux vector of 16 bits for extended characters.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Righto. So the std::pair is a crude way to tie the information with the container. That's runtime though.
 
12:13 PM
Getting a character is some bit fiddling, but saves a lot of space without resorting to holding UTF-8.
 
I'm wondering about struct u8string: private std::string { /* the mother of all using declarations */ }; to remove that silly ambiguity about std::string.
 
@LucDanton See, now I have a vague idea of what a codecvt is. That means I'm one step closer to making the decision of investigating the seediest part of the standard library. I don't want to.
 
And I'd prefer the container to be aware of what it stores. As a plus unicode_string u; byte_string<utf16> = u; // poof, encoded.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, keep high level. "Information about the encoding". That information is a convention for e.g. std::u32string because only a deviant mind wouldn't put UTF-32 stuff in that.
 
Last week I implemented a streambuf. It took way too much googling for my taste, but I did it. I didn't want to either, but the curiosity seed had been planted long ago and grew into the point I couldn't hold it any more. Now I feel dirty.
 
12:17 PM
@CatPlusPlus Those conversions are available via std::wstring_convert. Screw implicit conversions.
 
Well, I won't get around to implementing it anyway.
 
(The wstring in wstring_convert does mean you have to use it twice to avoid std::wstring.)
Oh actually no. I missed that part of the std::wstring_convert interface.
 
There is a std::wstring_convert?
 
Yeah.
 
Where is that? §22?
 
12:22 PM
22.3.3.2.2
 
Ok, that explains why I never saw it.
 
It inherits a bit of std::codecvt wonkyness in that it does an encoding conversion but it must always do so by going from some character type to bytes. So if you want e.g. char16_t -> char32_t (with appropriate encoding conversion of course) you need to take a trip to std::string+UTF-32.
 
Can I use std mutexes and locks and friends but not use std::thread (instead posix threads)?
 
I'm trying to see if there's a definitive answer but I think an educated "if you can't, that's a defect anyway" is reasonable given that std::thread has native_handle.
 
I remember investigating that before for someone who asked the same...
I don't remember the verdict.
 
12:34 PM
Oh yeah, and std::system_error & friends are part of my educated guess, too.
1.10 describe threads as a high-level concept.
30.3 Threads, the specs for std::thread, start with
> 30.3 describes components that can be used to create and manage threads. [ Note: These threads are intended to map one-to-one with operating system threads. — end note ]
Is that good enough for your purposes?
 
I guess so.
As long as it Does The Right Thing then I'm happy
Although what about when posix is not the OS thread?
 
Well, I believe that if you're using Posix threads directly you're automatically in implementation-defined land, so you'll have to check directly how the implementation works.
0
Q: .NET C/C++ P/INVOKE exception

Wild GoatRunnnig this code getting this error, could any one help figure out what is going on here? using System; using System.Collections.Generic; using System.Linq; using System.Text; using System.Runtime.InteropServices; namespace LSATest { class Program { public static List<string> li...

Lovely. C# question tagged C++, wall of code, have a null reference exception, help.
 
It's not really directly, it's Bigloo that uses posix and I want to pass it C++ code
Guess I'll try it and find out. Know anything should test for to make sure it works?
 
12:53 PM
If you've seen the advert, you'll know what I mean when I say, "good for Doris"
 
Man, DF should have some "construct scaffold" thing.
 
Well. That's not nice. Unless you meant scaffolding.
 
I thought stairs were scaffolding
 
@LucDanton what else could that mean?
 

« first day (523 days earlier)      last day (4430 days later) »