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1:04 PM
morning#
 
Yay, I've got two windows and rendering works just fine.
I don't get any events from the first one, though.
 
platform?
 
The same. Again something with the damn raw input.
 
post your windowing code and I'll take a looksie
 
pretty sure your HID magic numbers are wrong
 
They can't be wrong.
 
yeah, my bad memory
got some constants in the RID samples mixed up
why are you using RID, anyway?
 
Well, WM_KEYDOWN didn't report Alt presses, so I thought I'd go for handling everything via RI for consistency.
It works fine for one window, but doesn't for two and dunno why.
 
doesn't it have to be in focus for keypresses to register?
 
1:15 PM
It is in focus.
Keypresses are reported as belonging to the other window, and mouse events don't appear.
Probably because I check whether they fall inside the window.
 
so, you registered for RI on both windows?
 
Well, I think I did. That's what the code should do.
 
cause I think you're supposed to do it like, once per app, not once per window
 
WM_CREATE is reported correctly for both windows, so the queues aren't mixed up or something.
 
the RegisterRawInputDevices function doesn't take an HWND parameter
 
1:17 PM
RAWINPUTDEVICE does.
 
oh, sod me again
it's been too long since I worked with this
 
But I think you might be right.
 
oh, yeah
 
If RegisterRawInputDevices is overwriting the registered devices list.
 
there's some shittery about thread-specific message queues, not window-specific, and that kind of thing
 
1:18 PM
Then I should get the current one and append.
 
so you might find that actually, even though you think it's per-window, it isn't
nah, you don't need to do that I think
try just registering once, instead of once per window
 
I can't do it once, because I don't know how many windows there will be. I don't want to force the API user to call something after windows are created (what if they'll be create sometime later?)
 
sure, but you already have this problem because presumably, they all share the same Window class
so I created a Context object that holds once-per-system stuff like the Window class, and then you can register for RawInput in it's constructor, and then it factories the Window objects
 
Oh wait.
hwndTarget
Type: HWND
A handle to the target window. If NULL it follows the keyboard focus.
 
NULL sounds like a good idea to me?
 
1:23 PM
Yeah, let's see how it works.
I already have a factory to do system-wide stuff.
 
@CatPlusPlus FOCUS!
 
Geez, the damn window has focus.
The parameter wasn't NULL, it had specific window handle.
 
lol
 
@CatPlusPlus but have you got a static-factory-generator-singleton?
 
I'm not an idiot, thankyouverymuch.
 
1:26 PM
@CatPlusPlus AMAGAD. TEH PRESSES, STOP THEM!
 
Ahaha, it works.
 
I just ssh'd into my uni's supercomputer and can forward X stuff. I feel cool now.
 
I need focus/lost focus events.
 
there are WM messages for that
 
I imagine there are.
I need to extend my Event Variant (TM).
 
1:28 PM
ssh -X
 
@keithlayne yeah, and a Linux VM to make all the VPN and X magic work easily without installing crapware.
 
 
XMing not so bad on Windows...no crappy dependencies. I would hate to run a whole VM just to get an X server
 
My prof used putty and something called X-Win32.
 
I mean, I need an ssh client, so I'll have putty anyway
 
1:31 PM
There are even commercial X servers for Windows (lol).
 
I have an Arch VM anyways. My uni's VPN requires Cisco VPN software.
 
Exceed...etc
 
hmmm
to expose shaders, or not to expose shaders?
 
the commercial x servers are pretty much dead I thought
 
I would hope so.
 
1:32 PM
xwin32 I think is old and poopy
 
it worked AFAIRS.
 
xming is the best free one for windows I think I've used. In fact, I run my linux VMs headless and use putty with X forwarding (if I need GUIs)
 
Virtualbox Seamless mode ftw!
 
yeah, but I don't want to install all that crap in the VM
 
Even Xming requires you to pay for newer versions.
 
1:34 PM
since when?
my old version works fine then
 
Since 7.0.
 
you can't just make up numbers and pretend they mean anything.
I have 6.9 apparently
 
> By donating you will get a Donor Password sent by email, enabling access to Xming Website Releases and Development Snapshots for private individuals.
Yeah, 6.9 is last "public domain" one.
The newer are "website releases".
 
@keithlayne pacman -Ss virtualbox-archlinux-additions virtualbox-archlinux-modules. Auto-update and everything. They usually lag 1 or 2 days between official releases.
 
Oh yeah, I forgot. Screw that. This is plenty functional and I can always use a real X server
@rubenvb I was talking about the X server and all that crap, not the additions. And I don't use arch anymore. I have a wife and kids, and they make faces at it.
 
1:38 PM
@keithlayne lol. I see, X is big on its own. I'm surprised you use Linux at all at home.
 
2 hours ago, by Wajih
hello
^^ into the chasm :)
 
my use has been reduced by getting some free legit windows licenses a couple of years ago from school, and that unfortunately some stuff that I need windows for. Makes the wife happier.
 
@keithlayne I have convinced the wife to use linux. She agrees that she doesn't miss much (and I take care of installing things for her, just like I would on windows)
 
Hello guys
 
@keithlayne And the kids too
 
1:44 PM
Wee, two windows at 800FPS.
 
back when I didn't have a windows license, she had no choice...she is mainly concerned about facebook and that kind of crap. My computer that I build to work on has 4 cores of facebook power while I'm stuck on her laptop. blows.
 
Okay, now time for GLX.
 
I don't get it. My wife does facebook too. Does she need four cores of windows? She can be on the netbook/laptop. And, when i'm not using it, she's welcome to use the Desktop. Dual screen quad core facebook power.
On linux.
 
Linux is perfect for Facebookcrap
 
@rubenvb Linux is above "fail" for any use?
 
1:48 PM
@CatPlusPlus perhaps you can help explain this to me. I see a lot of talk between rendering an interpolation between the two most recent steps in the physics. Is this not just interpolating between old and very old?
 
@DeadMG no, it's just hard and unfriendly for most people. Trust me.
 
@sehe If it's not facebook it's flash games for the kids
 
@thecoshman Well, I guess it's extrapolating when physics are behind. Terminology.
 
@keithlayne give them decent games to play. Problem solved.
 
@keithlayne So...? They do that. On my smartphone too. Don't see the need to install windows for that
 
1:49 PM
yeah, deadmg is a masochist, you'd figure he'd be all over linux. Or maybe COBOL.
 
If you're using a physics engine then this stuff is probably handled transparently.
 
@CatPlusPlus so I am right in thinking that they are not calculating a predicted time step
 
I have a C++ application running on linux. I call this application using a php script. The application takes a 2 parameters. 2 files. One with input data and the other file is where the output data is going. For some reason the application isn't running. I know it's an environmental issue because it works fine when I host it locally but when i moved it to my web host the application no longer runs. I check permissions.
All applications are 755 (i run multiple applications). Any idea what it might be? I had it working before on my web host but I reuploaded and it stopped working. The input files are being written correctly by php but the C++ application is writing the output file. I also chowned everything. Any suggestions?
 
@rubenvb A tad less vulnerable too. FB crowd are still largely Win/Mac
 
Time step is fixed, you can tell if physics are behind by basic arithmetic.
 
1:50 PM
@sehe it's not a capability issue, it's a selfishness issue
 
@hanleyhansen cunningly trying to make this about c++ are you. Hint, it's not.
 
Yuck, 755.
 
@hanleyhansen just try superuser.stackexchange.com
 
It's a hammer of the UNIX permission world.
Well, that and 666/777.
 
7777
 
1:51 PM
never had to mess with all the numbers.
 
@sehe There's no linux chat room, or server chat room. I clicked in here and saw linux conversation and figured this would be my best bet.
 
rwxrwxrwx.
 
As far as I can see though, the main argument being made for fixed time step is that you can reproduce the results. If you do not care about this, I think fixed time step looses it's main argument
 
Stability is the main argument.
 
@hanleyhansen This is also not a QA site.
 
1:52 PM
Only when doing a make install for a package, in which case I just copied the numbers from another package.
 
I just made that up... can't remember suid crap
 
Deterministic simulation is a nice side-effect.
 
@sehe I know. Just thought I would get some ideas flowing to help me out.
 
@hanleyhansen So if the bakery is closed you go to the butcher's for bread?
 
user406009
Wouldn't a fixed time step also increase the accuracy of your simulation?
 
1:52 PM
Yes.
 
no, small time steps would make it more acreate
 
You know you won't miss a step because of a spike.
 
Huh? I guess you are right: I'm selfish by making all machines run Linux...
... and maintaining them too
 
@rubenvb Well if the butcher is advertising bread on the window display then yeah.
 
user406009
I remember having to implement one on a space invaders game because the bullets went too fast 5% of the time.
 
1:53 PM
With variable time step, you don't know whether it'll be small or suddenly get larger.
 
@hanleyhansen Fallacy:
 
@sehe you're not selfish, and neither am I; it's my wife and kids.
 
@hanleyhansen The butcher wasn't advertising bread! You just saw him eating a sandwich. Different story
 
You might miss collision or explode completely.
 
except you can still control what time step you feed into your physics
 
1:54 PM
@hanleyhansen I didn't know Stackoverflow was advertising Linux/PHP/permissions question help...
 
@thecoshman with fixed timesteps, you can run a sane simulation. Without, you're fucked
 
@hanleyhansen don't be a retard
 
@sehe dang, that one's better than mine :)
 
does a day ever pass in here where that doesn't happen?
 
@keithlayne I eat bread all the damn time
 
1:55 PM
Authors of physics engines recommend fixed time step. I don't know about you, but that's enough of an argument for me.
 
but with a fixed time step, how do you handle it taking longer to process then DT?
 
make it not do that
 
@keithlayne how am i being a retard? i was just asking a question.
 
@sehe maybe I was talking to myself. I'm unstable, you know.
 
or detach game-time from wall-time
 
1:55 PM
You can scale time, it doesn't have to run 1:1 with reality.
 
@keithlayne In doing so, you are a consistent factor in this chatroom :)
 
@hanleyhansen I doubt you're a retard, but the butcher/bread thing was weird
 
but if it takes longer to process a time step in physics then you are wanting your physics to simulate, your physics will appear to be in slow motion
 
@keithlayne You can take a break. Just close the tab :) Let the dog out
 
@rubenvb brought it up. not me.
 
1:56 PM
maybe it's some idiom not present in my culture
 
@hanleyhansen Fair point, but your response to it didn't really make sense, don't you agree?
 
Not the first time either. @DeadMG stole it from me once too.
 
which you could pass of as a g feature I suppose, but that is a bit of an excuse if you ask me
 
@hanleyhansen I can't read, so I blame you
 
1:58 PM
@CatPlusPlus to what are you referring to with that link?
 
@sehe I'm not really serious. Forgive me.
 
Also, with numerical algorithms you have a discrete time, so the step is fixed anyway. If you're feeding it variable deltas then it'll be just unstable.
 
@CatPlusPlus Did you know... :
Feb 21 at 23:17, by sehe
The explanation of the port of Box2D to js using LLVM: box2d.js
 
@CatPlusPlus why will it be 'unstable'?
 
Because these things are fragile.
 
1:59 PM
@CatPlusPlus before you say it: unrelated, but cool
 
@sehe I agree. My assumption was that in a chat of C++ developers someone might have come across a similar environmental scenario and might be able to provide some insight. I came in to see what the current topic was. I saw linux and saw this a good opportunity. Don't see any reason that warrants my question developing into an argument of fallacies.
 
@rubenvb the bakery thing doesn't translate to my culture; we go to McDonalds for both
 
@hanleyhansen I appreciate that you didn't join that argument.
@hanleyhansen I also think it might have been better to just start slowly, instead of dumping too 'max-length' messages and expecting us to jump at the bait
 
would you agree that ideally, as either fixed or variable, you would want the physics step to be as small as possible for the most accurate simulation
 
@keithlayne ugly_pic
 
2:01 PM
do you mind @rubenvb
I don't want to see that
 
lol
 
@hanleyhansen 'Hey, anybody up to unix/linux permissions? Can't seem to spawn a job from my webserver'
 
@hanleyhansen I try to run a VM to match my web server as closely as possible. It can help find these types of issues
 
Eh, you're distracting me with physics, I need to get to the GLX.
 
@sehe I wasn't expecting Q&A here. Just something that might trigger me. At the least I expected it being ignored.
 
2:02 PM
linkmarkdown fail
 
@sehe Fair enough. i'll keep that in mind in the future.
 
@hanleyhansen also see the newbie hints linked to your right if you're ever coming back.
 
@hanleyhansen the first time I came in here I said hello, made a joke, and have been blocked by @DeadMG ever since, after he cussed me out
 
@CatPlusPlus it is this idea that is the main reason why I am in favour of variable time step
 
2:03 PM
When in the Lounge<C++>, take nothing seriously.
Also, expect no help, then you're always surprised how helpful everyone is here.
 
Yeah, you can't trust smelly Europeans
 
user406009
The helpfulness of the people here matters on how much template masturbation is in your question.
2
 
on a more "room topic" related topic, is a template meta-problem really a problem... or is just a problem with problems?
 
@hanleyhansen mentioning PHP around here is never good either, unless you're talking about how much it sucks.
 
@CatPlusPlus erm... why? are you not running from something like Gnome or KDE?
 
2:06 PM
I don't want to depend on a specific desktop environment.
Or any large windowing libraries.
 
@CatPlusPlus like X? :P
 
@CatPlusPlus ah, I was gonig to suggest something like SDL
 
Xlib isn't that big.
And really, you can't go lower.
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus You should look into SFML though. That might save you a lot of time.
 
it's strange that you are working so hard to be locked to linux
 
2:08 PM
I don't want any crappy wrappers, either.
 
usually people work hard to get cross platform
 
No SDL, no SFML, no GLFW, no GLUT.
 
or they just plum for being stuck on windows
 
Good grief. I already implemented Windows side.
 
lol, you could have just used <cross platform windowing library> and done all sides at once
 
2:09 PM
SDL is shit.
 
indeed, at least SDL works.
 
I'm working for a lightweight replacement for crappy wrappers, in case you didn't notice.
 
oh that. Yeah, you mentioned that before.
 
I was just about to point out how stupid it is to reinvent the wheel, unless that is what you are trying to improve
 
@CatPlusPlus I shall call it...YACW
 
2:10 PM
I've been scolded here for trying that exact same thing.
 
There's nothing in SDL that doesn't need improvement.
 
user406009
Why not just improve SFML then instead of starting over from scratch? SDL is a piece of junk, but SFML has been a charm to use.
 
@CatPlusPlus a) lies b) then why try to replace it
 
SFML tries to abstract over OpenGL, I want only abstraction over input and window/context creation.
 
it might just be easier to write your own from scratch than trying to get a big, old and overly general framework to play nice with your application
 
2:12 PM
I don't need 95% of SFML.
 
SDL is one of those frameworks that tends to try to take over everything, in my limited experience
 
I never got that far with SDL before I got side tracked raped by Java, but I found it not too bad. It was the first cross platform window library I used mind, after a good bit of reading
 
And I've used SDL too much.
I know SDL.
I loathe SDL.
 
the lowest common denominator problem strikes again
 
The even driven input was proving awkward, but at least it is done for me
 
2:13 PM
And I want pure OpenGL solution.
 
correct me if I am wrong, but SDL is used to give you a rendering context, then you just use openGL to draw to that context
I'm not sure what you want to be made 'purer'
 
SDL 1.2 can't create core profile context.
SDL 2.0 will never be ready.
Not to mention the quality of SDL code is somewhere in the mud.
 
@CatPlusPlus I may be lost ¬_¬
 
Core profile. The non-deprecated, non-removed stuff.
The modern OpenGL, not something that was outdated 10 years ago.
No glBegin/glEnd and stuff.
 
It's the interface that I care about. It could be a pile crap underneath, but as long as the interface is good, I'm happy
oh right, current openGL
 
user406009
2:16 PM
Doesn't the core profile run slower than the full backwards compatible one?
 
It's not good. It's C.
What.
 
user406009
Extra error checking and whatnot.
 
Dammit. Some scientific software's GUI works all dandy, and when I try to run the real program from the commandline as stated in the manual, I get a bunch of unexplicable errors.
 
No, core profile doesn't work slower.
You should have minimum amount of OpenGL calls inside rendering loop anyway.
 
2:18 PM
so is your lib just going to make a xplatform way of drawing with openGL? will this include creating a window? what about OS hooks such as being told to quit
 
OpenGL is cross-platform way of drawing with OpenGL.
And yes, creating windows and getting input events is the whole purpose of this library.
Hence OpenGL skeleton.
 
@Zirak nice find:
 
but I can't just use OpenGL, I need a platform specific (or cross-platform) way of creating something to draw to
 
so things like input will not be included
 
user406009
2:21 PM
Wait github is down?
 
user406009
Shoot.
 
@EthanSteinberg what? try again bud
 
user406009
nvm
 
Completely platform independent code.
With no GL calls wrapping.
(Other than GLload to get the pointers and stuff.)
 
¬_¬ half tempted to use it just because I think it would be cool to have a project built on a project buy a guy (I assume) that I (sort of) actually know
 
2:25 PM
I'll release 0.1 when I get GLX working.
 
would I just include the source, or would I need to build a lib?
details man!!! :P
 
@thecoshman erm what do you reckon?
@thecoshman these are for you :)
 
huh?
 
It's a static library.
It can't be header-only, because I want system headers to be hidden.
 
@thecoshman It is C++ code. So you can link to it. Statically, dynamically, using an archive, directly etc.
 
2:28 PM
@sehe which I why I asked...
 
You can hardly expect a guy (you assume) that you (sort of) actually know to support a non-released opensource thingamajig
 
It's designed to be used as a static library.
 
works well for me :D
 
@CatPlusPlus Which pretty much means you can just add the cpp to your command line too :)
 
Yes.
I don't use any macro configuration other than NDEBUG, so it doesn't need magical incantations to be built.
 
2:29 PM
now, I am not that well versed when it comes to making these libs, so would it be one lib that will handle for me the platform when I compile? I think I am right... though didn't explain it well :P
 
You include one of the platform-specific source trees to the build.
 
so there will be a linux lib and windows lib etc.
In other words, **my** code would have to manage include the right one at build
 
Implementation is hidden behind an interface and unique_ptr.
 
another one for mark down ¬_¬
afk
 
You can't build an app for both Linux and Windows at the same time.
 
2:34 PM
Have you seen this website? It seems to have some good writings.
 
damn
is it just me, or does the sniper rifle in Mass Effect suck balls?
 
It was pretty good in the first one, after some upgrading.
 
in ME3?
 
no, the first one
 
oh
yeeeeah, it was kind of a useful secondary weapon, but not something you could rely on in a fight
 
2:38 PM
@DeadMG I found most ME1 weapons kinda rubbish, so I used the pistols for the whole game
 
it works fine if you use it to weaken enemies before they get close, or take out the ones you can't easily reach, but as soon as you try to actually fight using it, you're screwed
 
the thing is
 
@DeadMG Are you trying to catch up before playing ME3?
 
you get the crosshairs right on the enemy, you pull the trigger, and then a hit doesn't register
 
Worked for me.
 
2:38 PM
not to mention the fact that the whole waving thing is both massive and uncontrollable, and it can hardly fire two shots before waiting to cool down
 
oh, it hit just fine for me
just didn't do a lot of damage
@DeadMG that's skill dependent. Get a character with sniper skill
 
I'm trying
but the game won't let me pick skills in sniper :(
also, the whole hit registration thing is suck
 
does your class have that skill tree at all?
if so, you just need to unlock it by putting enough points in whatever is above it
 
@StackedCrooked this one is pretty amazing Things That Turbo Pascal is Smaller Than
 
@jalf Really? That's a dumb system
 
2:43 PM
@sehe The Wikipedia page for C++ is bigger than Turbo Pascal 3 :D
 
@DeadMG It's a rpg. It's not exactly a new idea that you have to put points into basic skills in order to unlock advanced ones in rpgs
but they could have made it clearer to the player that that's what's going on
 
sure, except sniping isn't more advanced at all than the basic ones
it's the same deal, just with a different kind of weapon
 
@DeadMG it is for your character class
different classes have different basic and advanced skills :)
 
more like "Different artificial design constraints"?
I mean, you're not talking about something which is an actual progression, here
 
@DeadMG call it what you will. That's how the game works.
@DeadMG aren't I?
 
2:47 PM
also, it would have been swell if they had mentioned this to me before the game started
@jalf No.
 
why isn't it a progression?
 
a progression is where you start at little skill in doing X and then go to having much skill in doing X
not where you have to learn to do X before you can even start to do some utterly unrelated Y
 
Why is it utterly unrelated?
 
because they're different kinds of weapon?
 
knowing where to find the trigger on a gun is a prerequisite for killing someone with a sniper rifle, isn't it? ;)
 
2:48 PM
the same way that I can skill up in pistols or assault rifles independently
 
so what are you gonna do about it?
 
complain here, obviously :P
 
that's what I was afraid of
 
even bitching is more fun than playing ME3
 
well, I figured I'd make sure that I wasn't missing something
 
2:50 PM
You must hate a lot of games. Think of all the games where you need to learn to cast fireball before you can learn lightning bolt. Utterly unrelated skills, and yet practically every damn fantasy rpg does that
anyway, that's how it works in ME. I agree it can take you by surprise
on the plus side, you practically level up every other time you fire your gun for the first 20 levels in that game
so you can get your sniper skills pretty quickly
 
I never had a problem with that, because they don't then ask you to level up your lightning bolt separately
also, it's less of an issue because magic is the choice you make, as opposed to archery or sword-wielding or something like that
instead of "The entire game is composed of this one element"
 
anyway, snipers are nowhere near good enough to rely on them as your primary weapon, so having to put a few points into another weapon type probably saves you a lot of frustration down the road ;)
even if they become more useful once your character becomes good enough to stop waving them around like a madman
how far are you?
I'm guessing near the start :)
 
just finished the very first mission, actually
 
Eden Prime?
cool
 
@StackedCrooked en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B is only 216,897 bytes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_Pascal is 89,700 bytes, already bigger than TP 3
 
2:54 PM
oh, yeah
and it's actually doubly irritating because the game caps how specialized you can be
so I want to put more points in assault rifle, but I can't :(
 
@DeadMG nah, that limit gets raised over time
any of your skill trees can be maxed out properly
 
and in the meantime?
 
either save your skill points, or put them into something else
It won't take that long before their limit gets raised
 
@DeadMG save skill points. That's what saves you later on in Diablo 2
 
before you leave the citadel (IIRC that's where you're headed now), you'll have much higher skill caps
 
2:58 PM
I never saved skill points in D2 and never had a problem with it
 
like I said, you level up at the slightest provocation early on ;)
@DeadMG you're probably not one of the hardcore D2 gamers who played through it dozens of times every week with the same character then ;)
neither was I
 
I have until the 15th of May, then a whole new world opens up
 
but to those people, it was a pretty precise science :)
 

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