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10:00 PM
@bitmask I think you meant to address R.Martinho with that. I was thinking about people picking it up and walking off with it. That's still security.
 
@MooingDuck: ... a heavy stone?
like ... the Earth :)
 
@bitmask You think the Earth is secure?
 
@bitmask ? who made that distinction? If I crack enough bricks in your building, security is involved. If I crack the right one, security may be involved at a single brick.
Not counting power bricks.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes somone could pocket it when I'm not looking!
 
Yes, in some systems, security holes, can create safety problems (like in cars). But not always
 
10:02 PM
@bitmask and vice-versa.
 
Rabbit holes create deeper problems than security holes.
 
@MooingDuck: not sure
can you provide an example?
 
@bitmask I'm thinking :(
@bitmask a building that isn't earthquake resistant in an earthquake-prone area. That's a safety problem. And can create a security problem.
 
how's that?
Where is security involved there?
 
@bitmask if a wall falls over, someone could walk in and rob me blind
 
10:05 PM
Oh, sure. Didn't think of that.
 
@bitmask happened in my hometown once. There was a big earthquake, and the wall of JCPenny fell over
crime became a problem pretty quick there
 
Although the possibility to expose sensitive entities (your valuables) by earthquaking could be considered a security flaw in itself.
 
@bitmask it could yes
someday soon I'm going to have to play with lisp. My interest is renewed after DeadMG and rubenv's discussion about metaprogramming.
 
heh, I always wanted to learn lisp. Only for the reason that I heard you can have function names with questionmarks
 
@bitmask lisp blows minds
@bitmask the code is data, data is code. You want to insert new code in a function at runtime? no problem. You want to execute a list? no problem.
 
10:10 PM
so, basically like bash :)
 
@bitmask but if you just want question marks in function names and don't want your brain melted, there's ruby for that
 
@MooingDuck You know you can do that in many modern languages, don't you?
Like the aforementioned Ruby.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes no, I was unaware that any other language could do so
 
@MooingDuck Lua can do it.
 
That's what eval is for.
 
10:12 PM
exactly
any interpreted language can just run it through the interpreter
 
Hey, thought I'd pop in here and ask y'all something. Anybody remember the name of the presentation by a certain person (whose name I forgot) who was demonstrating software that would run with live editing? He showed a couple of example including canvas, arrays, and circuits. I'm just at a loss, and I'd love to watch it again.
 
@sudormrf java can do that
 
It probably could. I was just wondering if anybody remembered the guy's name.
 
Notch did a video like that
he was trying to fix a bug in Minecraft and showed the game running with live code edits
 
10:16 PM
JIT compilation?
 
Nah, I doubt it was Notch.
Oh well, thanks anyway!
 
@bitmask You can generate .NET IL code at runtime. I suppose the same can be done for Java bytecode.
 
@MooingDuck lisp blows minds FTFY
(of course, it rocks, but the pun had to be made)
 
Did anybody ever experience tunnel vision while coding? It happens sometimes to me, and I'm at a complete loss.
 
10:21 PM
@DeadMG I got the impression that lisp was unique that it didn't require reinterpreting the entire function, and just had a few lines inserted, but I'm very unsure about that.
 
@bitmask no, see a doctor
 
@MooingDuck Lisp has a compile function, is that what you mean?
 
I don't really feel sick, but it's a bit odd.
I blame the Earl Grey :)
 
@bitmask Tunnel vision is not normal. Either you're drunk/drugged/whatever, or you're sick.
 
10:22 PM
@Pubby "Lisp programs can manipulate source code as a data structure" from wikipedia. I never heard of a compile function
 
I've been thinking
how to mask lag in an RTS game
 
@MooingDuck Oh, that too
 
@RMartinhoFernandes: Hm, then I should stop drinking black tea.
 
@DeadMG Pop up a message saying "buy a better connection".
 
@sudormrf smalltalk, squeak, factor, csharp REPL... many beasts can do this. You have to have a given datapoint to find related info (either know the technology, asking the the name or vice versa)...
@bitmask tee?
 
10:24 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes lols
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Down here, 'Tunnel Vision' is used to describe a psychological effect much associated with Cognitive Dissonance (the inability to consider alternatives after investing effort in one option)
 
@DeadMG I knew one fps that would guess who your target was and "nudge" your shots toward them (server side) depending on lag. It made lag tolerable (but not overpowered, you still missed less with a good connection)
 
@sehe: Yeah, that happens to me too :)
 
@MooingDuck lols
 
10:26 PM
@sehe Yeah, but it's also an actual symptom of health problems.
 
In that sense, Tunnel Vision is normal. It is as normal as cognitive dissonance, which is inevitable. Avoiding Tunnel Vision takes discipline and analytical powers.
@RMartinhoFernandes Linky?
 
Tunnel vision (Also known as "Kalnienk Vision") is the loss of peripheral vision with retention of central vision, resulting in a constricted circular tunnel-like field of vision. Medical / biological causes Tunnel Vision is the loss of peripheral vision, normally due to a Retinal problem. Tunnel vision can be caused by: * Blood loss (hypovolemia) * Alcohol consumption causes tunnel vision. In addition, the vision becomes blurred or double since eye muscles lose their precision causing them to be unable to focus on the same object. * Retinitis pigmentosa, a disease of the eye. * Sust...
 
@bitmask So are you referring to the physiological effect or the psychological effect?
Both I guess, after visiting WP
I'd say, on physologics: take more breaks, get away from keyboard (work on paper, helps me a lot of the time))
 
@sehe: I was referring to the physiological effect. But it's not as severe as it may have sounded.
 
@DeadMG I can't come up with any good ideas beyond better individual unit AI
 
10:30 PM
On the psychological effect, I'd say: learn what added value is. Added value is almost never to persevere in a certain direction, but to be able to reecognize mistakes and signal them.
 
@MooingDuck Well, I guess it's fortunate that I am designing a game in which virtually every shot is guaranteed to hit? :P
 
Leaern to 'kill your darlings' - throw away code, at least once a day and you'll find out how this makes you (a) more productive (b) more valuable (as an employee)
@bitmask I do recognize it, but I don't let it come to that. I recognize the pre-phase, and would call it 'over-concentration'. In fact, I've learned to label it 'lack of focus', which it is. 'over-concentration' is a misnomer.
 
@DeadMG I meant, having the units do things that you would order them to do anyway (in high action situations) such as focus firing priority or low health targets.
 
@MooingDuck Ah, it won't be that laggy, I hope.
 
10:32 PM
Whenever you get 'zoomed in' just so much that you don't consciously check what you're doing, or you aren't able ('free') to think of alternatives, or whether it is time for a break, it is, well.... time for a break
 
Can I create structures in a header file for c?
 
@sehe The only time I'm productive :P
 
@sehe: I don't have the luxury right now, to take a longer break. Impossible dead-line ahead.
ideal conditions
 
@DeadMG one I had considered was a stack-based thing, last 2 seconds of actions are kept in a stack, if a command comes in, it's inserted at the right place in the stack and everything since is updated. If it's more than 2s late, just put it as far back as possible. very processor heavy though.
 
perhaps I should close this tab ...
 
10:34 PM
@LearningC text structures, mainly. Strings of characters, known as tokens, which are subsequently interpreted by a preprocessor and various compiler passes.
 
@DeadMG if it's not laggy enough to require that, why would you care at all for an RTS?
 
@MooingDuck Possibly true.
 
Ideal conditions for tunnel vision? also for one-sides traffic accidents on your trip back home. Been there, done that
 
@sehe that answer doesn't seem to match his question. Do you two have additional context I'm not aware of?
 
the problem is that my idea of how long it can take for a unit to react before the lag is noticable is less than the ping
 
10:35 PM
@sehe I'm confused.
 
@MooingDuck I'm mocking the lack of context. By inventing another context.
 
I've been thinking about sending the order into the future, as it were
 
@sehe: I'm home. It's half past 11pm where I live.
 
@DeadMG Erm, what?
 
@bitmask TBH: I sometimes indulge in 'binge coding' like that, when I'm home. Still not very healthy
 
10:36 PM
@LearningC that's the best place for them
 
@MooingDuck ok thanks
 
@DeadMG so bots don't have an advantage?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Give the order a timestamp to be executed. Then set that timestamp to be like, more than the current time + highest ping, so it's guaranteed to get to the other players before it's due to be executed.
 
@sehe: I don't drink
 
@MooingDuck (a) what are structures (b) what is 'to create'?
@bitmask coding != drinking
 
10:37 PM
actually, one of my real problems is that I went with a variable-step design :P
 
@sehe: had to look up binge and assumed you tried to achieve the ballmer peak :)
 
@sehe I assume he means declarations
 
@DeadMG Ahem. So - those are your real problems. I see
 
@bitmask How do you prevent dehydration?
 
10:38 PM
I won't be able to make variable-step engines work over P2P unless I can integrate orders from the "past"
 
My teacher has typedef struct deta_el_ {} data_el; What is data_el ?
 
for reference:
 
or maybe variable-step is just a dumb idea to begin with
@LearningC A type.
 
sbi
@Xaade TBH, I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
@LearningC that's a little more complicated. Effectively, data_el is the type of the struct. There's a lot of history behind why, but it's unimportant.
 
10:39 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I was referring to alcoholic beverages.
 
@DeadMG Do I need to write the exact same thing? or can I name it something else?
 
@LearningC typedef struct deta_el_ {} data_el; is the C version, where C++ would be struct deta_el {};
 
@LearningC: If this is C (not C++) it makes sure struct data_el and data_el are the same
 
@bitmask But one is data_el_ the other is data_el
 
@LearningC: whoops, didn't spot the _
 
10:41 PM
@MooingDuck I would, too. But the question is so basic then, that I dismissed it as a viable assumption. Learning C is around here for about 2 months (without checking) so I rate him to know the very basics.
 
then it's struct data_el_ and data_el
 
^^ for fun:
Feb 10 at 0:38, by Learning C
Hi. I'm here to troll some more.
 
@sehe: thanks ... plonk
 
@sehe Lol. I'm not trolling. We are learning about structures. I'm really asking because I need help. Doing my second project...
 
@bitmask lol!
@LearningC Consider asking a Q on StackOverflow, nice site. Allows you to give an actual example. You get an actual answer, mostly
 
10:43 PM
How come www2.its.strath.ac.uk/courses/c/… they don't use data_el_ and data_el
 
@LearningC Because the person that wrote it knew C first, and wrote it the C way. Not the C++ way
 
@LearningC, or just whatever suits you, as long as you don't mind skeptics grumpy guys like me picking on your question :)
 
@sehe I don't mind. Honestly I don't know if your trolling or for real.
@MooingDuck Which way is c++ way? I want to avoid that.
 
@LearningC I'm for real. Trolling is for real :)
2
 
@MooingDuck is this ok? ideone.com/i3o7A
 
10:46 PM
@sehe: If that last thing wasn't a troll-comment, I don't know what is.
 
@LearningC typedef with the name after is the C way
@LearningC both ways work in C++
 
@bitmask On this particular instance I think it is fair to say, I was trolling. But I was trying to make you him think too:
10 mins ago, by sehe
@MooingDuck (a) what are structures (b) what is 'to create'?
 
@MooingDuck Then is is better ideone.com/7T0ly
 
@LearningC <- I mean that one
 
Darn. Shouldn't retarget my messages.
 
10:48 PM
@LearningC better in what way? It works for both C and C++, but C++ coders tend to not like it. It's confusing because it's different than what we're used to seeing.
 
@sehe Were those philosophical questions, or C++ questions?
 
@MooingDuck Ok I'll do like the rest of the world.
 
@je4d those were addressing a vague comment
@LearningC more of the world does C than C++ :P
 
Call it, a philosophical response. A.k.a. troll :)
 
@sehe ah yes, i was reading when that went by. The questions were a lot more interesting when I thought they weren't about C :-)
 
10:52 PM
@je4d: I guess I miss out on a lot of fun experiments because I usually read transcript chronologically
 
@sehe chronologically? you're far too conventional.
 
@je4d woah. extrapolation? I prefer to do my reading conventionally most often.
That's not to say I don't enjoy lateral thinking. I think my troll response was proof enough of that
No one who knows me ever called me conventional.
Conservative, okay. But not politically
 
what is a good way of parsing a file and putting it into a structure?
 
@LearningC please be (a lot) more specific. The ways are manifold
 
@LearningC while(myfile >> newstruct) { myvector.push_back(newstruct);}
 
10:57 PM
@sehe sure.. if you were conventional, i'm pretty sure you wouldn't spend your free time on SO chat :P
 
Also, StackOverflow addresses all of those ways, with examples
 
@MooingDuck Wow? I meant the simplest way.
 
@LearningC it depends entirely on the format of the file, and the format of your structures
@LearningC that is the most common way if the file is simply whitespace seperated values
 
@MooingDuck that's one. I'd call it a pattern. Not sure it is a very practical pattern in practice. Have you ever written io manipulators, preserved stream state, handled parse errors on operator>> etc.? Not a nice job (TM)
 
@LearningC that's like "what should I study in college" answer: "depends on everything"
 
10:59 PM
Let say in the file is like this BQN Aguadilla, Puerto Rico\n How would I get BQN into airports.code and Aguadilla, Puerto Rico into airports.location?
 
@LearningC That depends. Again, you need to be more explicit. If a single line chat doesn't encourage you, there are larger text boxes more inviting to more text here:
 
@sehe nope. I ignore manipulators, state, and crash on parse errors. (related: I've never used it in production code)
@LearningC depends on your data structures
 
@MooingDuck I did. It wasn't very pretty. I managed, but it became so complex, I prefer writing explicit parsers (of course using Spirit, sometimes).
 
@LearningC give me a sec, I'll do this
 
Ok in English can I do this for all while not EOF , for all i, airports[i].code = fscanf until I see __ double space, and for all airports[i].location fscanf until \n?
 
11:02 PM
fscanf? What year is your book dated from? 1980?
 
lol fscanf in C++.
 
Try C++
 
In c
This is C
 
@LearningC This (hand gesture encircles room) isn't
 
^ What he said.
 
11:03 PM
^ That
 
Anyone here know about mathematical partitions at all? Could use some advice from someone more knowledgeable than I am
 
What does hand gesture encircles room mean?
 
@LearningC by the way, incidentally, this is ahem what I meant when I said you need to be more specific. You know, you might have mentioned that.
Or included it in the for your question on SO
 
@LearningC uh, was this supposed to be C. :( I just wrote a C++ answer....
@LearningC he means "this space" as in, this chat room
 
Parsing anything using C seems like a hell to me, especially with the horrible way strings work in C.
 
11:04 PM
@LearningC Skip that part. This room isn't C minded. It's C++ minded. And various other languages that rock.
 
Like Haskell!
 
So in C++ you don't use fscanf any more?
 
No.
 
@LearningC Nope.
 
wow that is new to me.
is c outdated or something?
 
11:06 PM
@LearningC we say so. People who code in C don't.
 
We use streams, boost spirit and/or other cool, fast, generic stuff.
 
Nobody knows about partitions?
 
oh. then why is my school making us learn c?
 
BAM (C++ answer)
 
Ehh, are streams really that much better than scanf?
 
11:07 PM
@LearningC because they're old and don't know C++
 
@LearningC because they know it's at least better than what other schools teach: Java.
 
@Pubby yes. Even with all their faults, yes yes yes.
@JohnSmith like, set theory stuff?
 
Like, partitions of integers
 
@Pubby Unfortunately I have to agree. Streams are much better. Not perfect, but better.
 
might be set theory, not sure
 
11:08 PM
@JohnSmith huh?
 
@JohnSmith if you're not sure, then no. it's not, and I don't know about your partitions. Sorry.
 
@JonPurdy is here? Cool
 
e.g. breaking up 5 into 1+1+1+1+1 or 2+3 or 4+1 or 2+1+1+1, etc. Partitions
 
@JohnSmith ah found the precursor. I assume it's number theory. Nah, not into jargon
 
@Pubby I didn't mean that streams are "totally awesome" and "the way to go", but they are at least type safe.
 
11:09 PM
@Pubby At your service. I answer enough C++ questions that I might as well lounge.
 
@JohnSmith Like, P({1,2,3}) = {{}, {1}, {2}, {3}, {1,2}, {1,3}, {2,3}, {1,2,3}}?
 
No, breaking up a number into additive partitions
 
Oh, Seems not. Damn, timeouts.
 
Not powerset
 
@JonPurdy I'd rather talk about concatenative languages! I've had them on my mind since that article you wrote.
 
11:11 PM
working on problem 374 of PE, hitting a bit of a wall
 
@daknokt I suppose my issue with them is that they're not much more capable than dumb scanf. I mean they're much better to work with, but they still suck at actual parsing.
 
@Pubby Okay. Let’s.
 
That insecure brick that was lying around :)
(you'd need to scroll back quite a bit to see the reference there...)
 
@Pubby They're not meant for parsing.
 
?
oh XD
 
11:12 PM
@Pubby +1
@RMartinhoFernandes +1
 
@JonPurdy Do you have any recommendations for implementing stack language interpreters in C++? I've been using Boost Variant and virtual but I wasn't sure if that was the way to go.
 
@MooingDuck @LearningC: The most straightforward thing I could come up with: http://ideone.com/X0GRx
Well, I added output streaming, for interactive results
 
@sehe Heh, I don't even know what the problem is.
 
@sehe thanks. Though I don't understand what is it or know what language it is in.
 
@sehe pft, doesn't even compile (Also, like mine, the wrong language :D )
 
11:19 PM
@Pubby Please disregard, have fixed the addresse
 
@LearningC we wrote ours in C++. This being the C++ chat and everything
 
@MooingDuck C++11, does compile and work (just not on ideone, apparently)
 
@MooingDuck Oh I see. I haven't learn C++ yet. Is there a C++ translator to C?
 
@sehe did you check the box for "C++11"?
 
@MooingDuck uhuh. old compiler
 
11:20 PM
@LearningC no, C can't do most of the things C++ can.
 
@Pubby You can look at the Kitten sources (C) for inspiration if you’re writing a dynamically typed stack language. I just used a tagged union.
 
ok. I'm going to go eat and brain storm a little. See you guys in a bit.
 
@LearningC just use fscan. We won't help you much more than we have unless we see some actual code of yours to correct
@JohnSmith actually, since you explained it, we can probably help with that. What was your question?
 
@JonPurdy Cool, thanks.
 
@MooingDuck There, fixed it so the compiler would eat it. Also fixed a bug in case there weren't two input fields per line: http://ideone.com/X0GRx (now with live input/output)
X { airport: 'Airport 1', location: 'SomeLocation' }
X { airport: 'NoLocation', location: '' }
X { airport: '', location: 'UnnamedAirportLocation' }
 
11:25 PM
@sehe mine didn't have a bug, mine simply considered an error as the end of the file.
 
@MooingDuck Pfft. How can a file “end”, right?
Oops, misread you as “considered as an error the end of the file”.
 
@JonPurdy oh good, you had me super confused
 
@JonPurdy lol
 
@JonPurdy though technically that's also a valid description of what my code does
 
@JonPurdy nice. Concatenative languages. I think @CatPlusPlus is quite the fan of those IIRC
 
11:28 PM
@sehe That sounds plausible.
 
You two met before, apptly
 
I’m working on a compiler for a statically typed concatenative language at the moment.
Wanted to target LLVM but the documentation is shoddy so I said “fuck it, x86 is good enough for everybody”.
 
@JonPurdy would that be comparable to Factor (forgive my ignorance, I just happen to have played with factor for a (tiny) bit))
 
Factor is dynamic
 
@sehe Factor is compiled, but dynamically typed (although it doesn’t allow dynamic stack effects).
Except perhaps for a handful of builtins.
 
11:31 PM
@LearningC Long, long outdated.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG But long long just came in with C++11!
 
well C++11 got deprecated pretty fast then didn't it :P
 
@LearningC C is a simpler language (IMO), but it is so much harder to accomplish anything! Right up there with legos being simpler than wood and nails, but try building a house of legos! (It's been done. once.)
 
Building a Lego house doesn't sound very hard, just expensive.
 
@Pubby structural support is tricky. And plumbing...
 
11:35 PM
Good point
 
@ScottW Next thing you know we’ll have tall and indie short.
indie being neither signed nor unsigned.
As long as we’re making bad puns, might as well start a game of one-upmanship.
Or one-downmanship, really.
“My joke is worse than yours!…oh.”
 
@JonPurdy is that really "winning" anymore?
 
Well, that shut everybody up.
 
11:54 PM
ARGH Y I SO SICKNESS ::(
 

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