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5:05 PM
@Xeo yeah, feel free (and please do) fix any of my answers that have errors.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck The main problem with your answer is that you just can't do certain things inside constexpr functions (like assert and increment) and that the initializer_list members aren't constexpr themselves, so no dice with static_asserting list.size()
 
@Xeo ah, forgot about the constexpr entirely
 
woah, googling myself actually gives a lot of results.
I'm awesome! :D
 
woo! I got rep today!
 
5:21 PM
@daknok_t I owned all my Chemistry classes, if you need help give me a shout
 
I really wish std::pair<X, Y>& could cast to std::pair<const X, Y>& without a copy. That'd make a few random bits of code easier.
 
@DeadMG I need help in chemistry. exams coming soon... O_O
 
@MooingDuck Try std::pair<const X&, Y&>?
 
The one thing I hate about C++ is seperate header and source files. Why the f*ck can't there be modules so I can just declare my classes and implement them then and there ?
 
Xeo
@IntermediateHacker Hope for C++17
 
5:26 PM
because things change, basically :p
 
@Xeo when's that coming out?
 
decisions that were optimal in 1970 may turn out to be pretty horrendous in 2012
@IntermediateHacker at a guess, 2017? ;)
 
in 1970, the compiler would be lucky to have enough memory to process even one source file at a time
let alone all of them and then some like today
 
I'm glad I'm not living in the 70's.
 
@DeadMG tried to make a class with a std::map-ish interface, with a std::vector container. Turns out that's hard without that magic cast
 
5:28 PM
@MooingDuck Ah, just alter the requirements to be pair<const K&, V&> instead of pair<const K, V>&.
nobody will notice
 
@DeadMG that means all inserts now require you to reallocate and copy every time.
 
uh, why?
 
@DeadMG uh, I failed to mention the vector was kept sorted, so I didn't need pointers. Thus "optimized" for small data sets.
 
right
still not seeing how pair<const K&, V&> isn't interchangable with pair<const K, V>&
 
@DeadMG I don't know what I thought you typed. I'm rethinking what you typed now. It's bizarre, but it's possible that would address the issue...
 
5:32 PM
Is there no Scala chatroom, or am I simply too stupid to find it?
 
@DeadMG that's hard to wrap my head around :(
 
@MooingDuck Isn't that a running occurrence between us?
or is it someone else?
 
@DeadMG yes. I always misunderstand your point, and then you get mad at me
 
well, there's no madness, but my point is still rather solid, I believe
 
and that is madness
 
5:36 PM
hey
 
it makes it tricky to copy the key/value to inside the container, I'm trying to work out where the actual key and value would be.
 
my points are frequently solid
 
<-- spent half an hour here
<-- still doesn't have a clue what everyone is talking about.
<-- will come back later, hopefully to find people discussing something else.
 
0
A: Strange std::cout output with pre- & postincrement

FredOverflow what happens if I say ++i++? I don't think anybody has asked that yet, because it is a compile-time error. ++i++ is parsed as ++(i++) which is invalid for scalar types like int, because postfix ++ returns an rvalue, but prefix ++ requires an lvalue (as does postfix ++, so i++++ wouldn't comp...

 
Comment I’ve just written (and I feel justified!)
# ... because Excel sucks balls.
# So much so that my comments get unprofessional & insulting.
 
5:47 PM
orld
 
6:06 PM
Comments insulting the technology are not professional? I thought they were defining trait of this profession.
 
god, I've visited SO 1006 days
 
I agree with the @Cat look at all those I'm a Mac Ads
 
"I'm a Mac and I suck balls"?
 
its more in the lines of "I'm a Mac and Microsoft sucks balls"
 
Ah, right, they were made by Apple, so they have to lie.
Well, they both suck balls, but still.
 
6:10 PM
millions of people beg to differ
and I don't see why you have to "support" either
 
I take it back, before some Mac user declares Jihad.
 
Pfft, who cares about what Mac users think.
 
@IntermediateHacker I don't think they need to. One jihad has got to be enough, don't you think?
sometimes people just need to grow the fuck up and get their heads out of their asses.
 
OSX still contains one of the stupidest design decisions I've seen in an OS.
 
6:12 PM
@ScottW lol.
 
And I've seen X11.
 
@CatPlusPlus wait till you glimpse the GObject system and Gnome.
 
@CatPlusPlus X11 sucks objectively speaking. That has nothing to do with linux vs mac vs windows. It's just an abomination
 
@jalf Why?
 
I've seen GObject.
It's C, what do you expect.
 
6:14 PM
@FredOverflow because it's an obsolete, overdesigned and unusable piece of rubbish?
 
I wonder why the creators of the GObject system didn't just use C++
 
GNOME itself isn't all that bad.
 
@CatPlusPlus Finder in general?
 
@IntermediateHacker probably because the wanted C compatibility ;)
 
Finder, global menu, "drag CD to Trash to eject", this sort of stuff.
 
6:15 PM
Nothing can be worse than (Space)CakePHP.
 
Dock, too.
 
@CatPlusPlus drag piece of text from a text document to the trash and it'll be erased. :P
 
@jalf err.. that's exactly what C++ provides.
 
@jalf I've never seen it, just asking.
 
Parts of Linux environment were always prejudiced against C++, so that's not really surprising.
 
6:16 PM
@IntermediateHacker not 100%, char* whatever = malloc(1000); doesn't compile in C++.
 
@FredOverflow thank you for getting me to come up with a good pro-C++ argument against my C fanboy friend!
 
So they created a weird preprocessor dependant non-typesafe ugly C++ subset library kind of thing and named it "GObject" ?
 
@FredOverflow It's easy to find and fix that.
 
@FredOverflow well, it's the unix philosophy at its worst. You write a library which is so general that it's unusable unless you bury it in a halfdozen wrappers, and even despite this generality, it still lacks fundamental and vital features. Let this stew in maintenance hell for a few decades, fundamentally change the underlying hardware in the meantime, and... it ends up a big mess. :)
 
Well, that and probably partially because they wanted to say "fuck you, Qt, and your C++".
 
6:18 PM
@IntermediateHacker Really? I can take C++ code and include it in a C file? Compile it with a C compiler? ;)
 
@jalf Doesn't every major system sooner or later end up a big mess? :)
 
C++ provides a migration path away from C. But what if your code needs to be usable directly from C?
@FredOverflow well, there are degrees of messiness ;)
 
And GNOME started not long after standardisation, so C++ was still a mess.
 
@jalf oh, i see. But why did they want to stick to C so badly?
 
@ScottW from a usage or implementation perspective?
 
6:19 PM
@IntermediateHacker I can only guess, but probably because Linux is so C-centric.
 
the only modern language the Linux community has half-heartedly embraced in the last century is Python. Otherwise everyone codes in C.
I wonder what they saw in Python?
 
> C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success.
 
Just like Windows.
 
Every OS is flawed, but most of them are usable. Except OSX.
 
@CatPlusPlus because one of the ways in which you can eject a cd is silly?
 
6:22 PM
@IntermediateHacker You can find Linux software written in every language.
@jalf Obviously.
 
> [C has] the power of assembly language and the convenience of ... assembly language.
6
lol
 
lol.
 
That is @CatPlusPlus's main use case for a computer.. I mean, what else would a cat play with?
 
(Disclaimer: I'm not being entirely serious, I just don't like OSX.)
 
6:24 PM
haven't been writing on my blog recently. Need to think up something good for a new post. :/
 
Or Obj-C for that matter.
 
LOL Objective-C.
 
@CatPlusPlus I've more or less settled in to OSX over the last few months
 
every year or so I decide I should at least figure out obj-C, then give up in like 5 minutes
2
 
plenty of idiosyncracies obviously, just like with Windows
 
6:24 PM
@CatPlusPlus don't mention Obj-C in front of me. I start getting hysterical.
 
It's primitive language on top of another primitive language.
 
but I can't express how much I love having a decent command line shell in addition to usable gui
 
There isn't much to learn.
I've been thinking about switching to Linux.
 
From?
 
@CatPlusPlus been there, done that... twice.
 
6:25 PM
But dunno. I'm not even sure about that new hardware yet.
 
@IntermediateHacker What wall did you hit?
 
so far, my most serious complaint about OSX is that they do something with TLS that makes my library much, much slower than on Windows and Linux
 
@FredOverflow Always ran into some problem or the other, sometimes apt-get crashed and started malfunctioning, sometimes some driver failed. It was hell.
 
the most serious concern about OSX is that you have to pay 20$ for every little tiny tool
 
@bamboon Hmm, so far I've made do just fine with free tools
am I missing out?
 
6:27 PM
@IntermediateHacker Linux != Ubuntu, really.
 
and the greatest problem in Linux is, everything crashes but there is no task manager ...
 
For some reason my laptop's graphics chip is blacklisted for unity, so it is DOG slow
 
@CatPlusPlus then what distro are you planning to use?
 
kill -9
 
@IntermediateHacker apart from the command line, you mean? top, ps, kill and so on?
 
6:28 PM
Wut, both KDE and GNOME have graphical task managers.
@IntermediateHacker Dunno. Gentoo, or maybe Arch.
 
@jalf I know that, but its a pain. And in one case the terminal hung up too. :D
 
I've got Fedora on my laptop at home, I like it so far
 
@jalf I would like to have a cheat sheet for the most important linux commands lying on my desk. Unfortunately, I don't know how to install my printer in linux :)
@CollinHockey Just don't use Unity.
 
Me either :D
 
@CatPlusPlus Arch ftw!
 
6:30 PM
what opening the web browser and talking to CUPS through it with crazy incantations isn't intuitive?
 
I've kind of absorbed various assorted commands by being near people who use linux
 
I like Portage very much.
 
@CatPlusPlus hmm, why is that exactly?
 
@CollinHockey I'm a linux noob, I've never heard about CUPS. Do they contain the holy grail?
 
@jalf well, that was just my experience, I wanted to download a tool which fixes my extra buttons on my mouse -> 20$, then I wanted to download a tool which gets me my typical windows/linux shortcuts back -> 20$ and then I wanted to get a tool for typical alt + tab behaviour 15$. beside that, an OS like windows
 
6:31 PM
@FredOverflow CUPS or that other thing that's supposed to replace it.
 
alt-tab behaves pretty much like Windows on my machine
 
@FredOverflow This is a vaguely remembered procedure I had to do like 6 years ago, it's probably not what you want anymore
 
yeah, that's one of the easiest things to get set up...
 
Not sure which shortcuts you're missing, but apart from using cmd instead of ctrl, they seem pretty similar to me
 
@rubenvb It doesn't require strange incantations to create new packages.
 
6:32 PM
anyway, I made a decision not to try to emulate Windows with OSX. It's a separate OS, and if I'm going to learn to use it I might as well do it properly
but ymmv
 
And you can update software before repo maintainers think about it, in 99.99% cases by copying old ebuild into an overlay with new name.
That's like, a killer feature.
 
@CatPlusPlus like... makepg?
 
With dpkg or RPM, you have to download the source, edit the spec files or whatnot, use weird things like fakeroot, build, package and then install it.
 
@jalf the difference is, that in windows/linux alt+tab switches between windows, in mac osx between applications.
 
@bamboon ah right, yeah
 
6:34 PM
@CatPlusPlus Just use thee testing repo's from Arch if you want even quicker updates. But ok, that ebuild hackery might be easier.
 
but that's not just alt-tab. Everything in OSX revolves around applications instead of windows
 
@CatPlusPlus Learn about Arch's PKGBUILDS, they're dead easy to use IMHO.
 
It's not about what's in the repo, it's about what's not in the repo.
 
That's one of the things I figured I just had to get used to
 
I know about PKGBUILDS, thanks.
 
6:34 PM
@CatPlusPlus AUR.
<watch me be an Arch fanboy :P>
 
and there's a shortcut for alt-tabbing between windows within an application too :)
 
It's still more effort than sudo cp /usr/portage/category/name/name-version.ebuild /usr/local/portage/category/name/name-new-version.ebuild. :P
 
with .rpms you have to do nothing?
 
I'm sure an OSX or Linux user would be able to find a lot of Windows apps costing 20$ which promise to restore the behavior he's familiar with too
I don't think OSX is either better or worse there
 
@bamboon he's talking about non-packaged versions.
@jalf yeah, there's even virtual desktop apps for windows.
 
6:36 PM
I'm talking about stuff that's not yet in the repo/AUR/whatever.
 
@rubenvb if only there was one which didn't suck
 
nVidia had a free virtual desktop app for Windows some time ago.
I never really needed virtual desktops.
 
that is in my oppionen the biggest contra to windows, that there is no real desktop manager
 
@jalf never had the need for one. I miss the Windows 7 superbar in Linux/KDE. There's nothing about stasks or smooth tasks or whatever that really feels the same.
 
Wut? There is a desktop manager.
 
6:37 PM
@CatPlusPlus I personally alwyas got confused on which desktop I was doing what.
 
It's built into the OS.
@rubenvb Yeah, me too.
 
dwm.exe
 
"Built" in the loose, NT architecture sense.
 
yeah
 
Heck, looser than Linux Desktop Integration is impossible
aka there really is no such thing...
 
6:39 PM
@rubenvb Took me a while to get used to virtual desktops when I first encountered them, but once I did, I desperately wanted something like it on Windows
 
They're trying to come up with some interop standards.
Dunno how well that goes.
 
but what does Microsoft... they are coming up with Metro -> fail
 
Metro's a desktop fail but I'm not sure it's a general fai
 
Metro looks nice in general. It's just on the desktop it seems out of place
 
You know Microsoft. Every other OS is the failed one.
 
6:41 PM
@DeadMG sure, for tablets it's cool
 
Windows 9 will be nice.
 
tablets is what it's aimed at
I don't know WTF they're doing with it on the desktop
 
@CatPlusPlus So ME was good too? ;)
and 2k was bad
 
@jalf The what? :P
 
They're expecting desktops to get touch displays obviously, and expand on the Windows Home Server stuff... domotica etc...
 
6:42 PM
wait, wait
I thought that ME was 2K
 
oh my
 
2K is NT line, ME is 9x line.
 
ohhh
 
@CatPlusPlus If every other OS is good, and Win7 is good, then Vista is bad, XP is good, 2k is bad, ME is good
 
6:42 PM
oh... my...
 
2K professional wasn't bad
 
which seems a bit revisionist ;)
 
ME was terrible
 
2k was meh, it wasn't really aimed at desktops.
 
i dont get paid in about 2 months, i need to cry somewhere kkkkk
 
6:43 PM
It wasn't ME-bad.
 
2k was NT's first step into the desktop world
 
most people who used it liked 2k
 
@jalf cause they had to, and they came from 98SE
 
That was XP, actually. It was a sorta-merge of ME/98 and 2k.
 
@CatPlusPlus weren't there themes and all in 2K as well?
 
6:43 PM
@jalf I've used it, and liked it. But XP was better.
I don't recall themes.
Any other than the standard colouring stuff.
 
maybe only colors and stuff. 98SE had that Windows plus junk
snakes instead of hourglasses etc...
 
anyone remember how I can find that question where the answer was "Congradulations, you've benchmarked your console window" because I can't find it now :/
 
2k had some limited DirectX support, AFAIR.
 
is there a way to search SO saying "these terms are in the answers, not in the question"?
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't think it was particularly limited
 
6:46 PM
Wikipedia says that DirectX 7 was 2k and later
 
@MooingDuck is:answer
 
@De
 
@CatPlusPlus thanks
 
but that DirectX 5 & 6 were 98 and 98SE only.
 
@MooingDuck this says: is:answer
damn, too late :(
 
6:47 PM
@jalf I remember having some trouble with it, don't recall what it was.
Long time ago.
 
@rubenvb yeah, I'd just found that page myself, but thanks
 
in a galaxy far far away
 
@DeadMG the only thing I know used DX5 was Starcraft and/or Diablo II.
 
My friend got starcraft running on an Apple IIci once, it did like 3 frames/sec
 
Anyone here use Windows Server 2008 R2 as a workstation/Desktop OS?
I know it's possible, it just needs some initial tweaking IIRC.
It's fabled to be awesomely fast
 
6:50 PM
I poked around with it a bit, didn't really see much point
 
eh
I'm the bottleneck in any application I use except Supreme Commander, so having a faster OS ain't gonna help
 
quite a few things don't work well with it, and I didn't really notice any performance difference
 
Yeah. I can get it for free through dreamspark.com, so I tried it once, but always forgot some server-oriented setting wasn't changed yet.
so I gave up and just installed 7.
 
It's the same kernel.
 
I think I saw (bear with me) some benchmarks that showed a 5-10% difference in raw fps.
 
6:53 PM
maybe I should just quit refusing to use libraries with shitty pseudo-OO interfaces
 
@rubenvb FPS? In which context?
 
it just cuts out so many if you have standards of quality
 
@jalf gaming, obviously ;-)
 
@rubenvb You would have to be a lot more specific for that to be even remotely meaningful.
 
@DeadMG don't play Dwarf Fortress eh?
 
6:55 PM
I know, it was a long time ago.
 
@MooingDuck I was never going to anyway?
 
@DeadMG DF is highly processor bound.
 
28 secs ago, by DeadMG
@MooingDuck I was never going to anyway?
 
keep in mind that 5% means that a game running at 60FPS normally would run at 63FPS on WS2k8. Hardly what I'd call "supremely fast"
 
I never said "supremely fast", and I do think the benchmarks in question were wrt Vista vs Server 2008, which is arguably more believable..
 
6:58 PM
oh right, you said "awesomely fast"
my bad
anyway, like I said, I found that it was a lot of hassle, and it didn't really feel any faster, so I ditched it
 
TIL why core dump is called that way
In computing, a core dump, memory dump, or storage dump consists of the recorded state of the working memory of a computer program at a specific time, generally when the program has terminated abnormally (crashed). In practice, other key pieces of program state are usually dumped at the same time, including the processor registers, which may include the program counter and stack pointer, memory management information, and other processor and operating system flags and information. Core dumps are often used to assist in diagnosing and debugging errors in computer programs. The name comes...
 

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