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Ell
6:00 PM
"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a grammatically valid sentence in the English language, used as an example of how homonyms and homophones can be used to create complicated linguistic constructs. It has been discussed in literature since 1972 when the sentence was used by William J. Rapaport, an associate professor at the University at Buffalo. It was posted to Linguist List by Rapaport in 1992. It was also featured in Steven Pinker's 1994 book The Language Instinct. Sentence construction The sentence is unpunctuated and uses three different r...
oops wrong one
nevermind
 
Just replace syntax with syntax+semantics in above text.
Monaco monaco monaco monaco monaco monaco monaco monaco.
Am I doing it right?
 
Ell
not sure :L
`int x;
string y;
x = y;`
that is syntactically correct but not semantically
(i think that is right?)
 
@Ell I guess.
 
@StackedCrooked Changing the syntax alone is not the same as changing the syntax and the semantics
yes, C++'s syntax sucks donkey dick, but it's really a minor problem in comparison
 
@Ell However, the opposite: y = x is a library feature. I don't know if that also falls under the "semantics" part.
 
Ell
6:03 PM
I dont mind c++s syntax
not sure where the line is really
between syntax and semantics
 
It's food for pedants.
Which we all are :D
 
syntax is just the form of the input characters
semantics are what they mean
there's usually a pretty clear dividing line
unless you have a context-sensitive grammar, which C++ does, but then only blurred in the case of that context sensitivity
 
template<class T> void foo(T value) { value->bar(); }
Whether this is valid can't be known without context.
I guess that's what you mean?
 
no
that's semantically valid or invalid
it's definitely valid syntactically
syntactic ambiguities are things like func(std::array<1>(5)); is it a bunch of comparisons or type creation?
 
Ell
sorry i g2g!
 
6:08 PM
Do you guyz think blank magic really exists?
 
Ell
bye :)
 
@DeadMG Ah yes.
 
they're resolved by symbol tables, which are effectively context
in this manner both C and C++ are context sensitive
although I believe that C has a much, much smaller problem
 
@DeadMG When I see these kinds of complexities that arise when defining a language then I wonder if Lisp was right all along. </old man's gibberish>
 
lol
nah, it's a simple fact that C++'s grammar was never designed to do this
effectively
 
6:11 PM
Really?
 
the WideC grammar is completely unambiguous and non-context-sensitive
yes, really
 
Didn't problems like this exist in C?
 
yes, but
what you have to remember is that in C, the allowed usages of typenames was exceedingly limited
you could declare variables and arguments of them and cast, and that was about it
and almost all of those usages are non-ambiguous
about the only place that C needs resolution is in the case of pointer declarations, realistically
however, in C++, you have templates, which add massive complexity
and constructors, and that sort of thing
because in C you could do so little with types, there was little effect to the fact that it was slightly ambiguous, but because in C++ there are many more type semantics and necessary associated syntax, it becomes a much bigger problem
 
can somebody recommend a open mp book?
 
In the future when unicode becomes universally supported a whole new range of symbolic characters will become available to implement new language features.
 
6:17 PM
no they won't
 
because you still have to have a keyboard with that key on
I'll never use the Unicode lambda symbol to introduce lambdas, because my keyboard can't make that symbol
 
sbi
@DeadMG Your keyboard can't make ™ either.
 
☐<int> represents an unset pointer wrapper.
☑<int> represents a set pointer wrapper.
 
But in the future everything will be using touch!
Ugh.
 
user406009
6:18 PM
Just use C++'s lambda syntax.
 
@sbi True, but I only type ™ randomly for fun, I don't have to type it regularly
having something like int™ for a pointer would be irritating
 
sbi
@DeadMG I know. But this being the C++ room, I'm a pedant: Your keyboard cannot make those chars easily.
 
I'd have to constantly move my hands over to get at the numpad from the main board
and you can't have more than one on copy and paste
 
Just add more bucky bits.
 
6:19 PM
it'd be digraphs and trigraphs all over again
 
user406009
How about int↠ for pointer?
 
Or improved editors.
 
☒for a deleted pointer.
 
user406009
And then you can use ↛ for null pointer
 
sbi
@DeadMG You can. When I was using VAX for VC, I always had the 20 latest copied items available. And I made a lot of use of that feature.
 
6:20 PM
huh, I wonder how that works
but I have no need for Unicode symbols anyway
my grammar has just one ambiguity, and it's the if/else S/R conflict
which I think is actually a tad silly, because I kept a bunch of redundant rules causing ambiguities and I didn't even notice they weren't necessary at all
which makes me feel a tad embarassed
but oh well
 
♋ indicates friendship
 
Isn't that the Pisces symbol?
 
♻ is for resource pools
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't know, lol.
 
Ah, no, it's Cancer.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Seems to me it rather indicates a sex practice. :)
 
6:25 PM
I knew it was some astrologic crap.
 
user406009
I don't think we need another version of APL.
 
sbi
Oh, the robot is back in town!
 
≈ for floating point comparison :D
@sbi Well, with friendship then.
 
It's friends with benefits.
 
friends-with-benefits ship?
lol
 
sbi
6:26 PM
@StackedCrooked Is that a Belgium concept of "friendship"? :)
 
enum race { ☺, ☻ };
 
That's valid C++, I think.
 
@sbi In some circles..
✆ is a IPC modifier.
 
Git is stabbing me in the face so hard right now, and I have never ever experienced such unfriendly documentation. More red bull!!
 
⍨ for destructors that can throw
Ok, I'll stop now.
 
sbi
6:30 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Haha! I have seen that movie. (With my daughter, BTW.)
 
What movie?
There's a movie?
 
Is Git really that bad?
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes imdb.com/title/tt1632708
 
Ok. I haven't seen that.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I didn't know the phrase had this meaning before the movie. I cannot remember having ever heard it before. (But then, you know the pathetic performance of my memory retrieval system...)
@StackedCrooked Time to post that link again: reprog.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/…
 
6:33 PM
@sbi That's why the film is titled that way. Because of the phrase.
 
sbi
@DeadMG Yeah, I guessed that. Now.
 
@StackedCrooked Well, at its core it's just a DVCS, which is fine. But in terms of documentation and syntax and naming consistency of its various commands, it's hell
 
sbi
@jalf I've had a brief look at git, and a somewhat longer at Hg when I was looking into DVCSs. Should I have to pick one, I'd take Hg.
 
@sbi That reminds me, I need to commit
 
@sbi Er, it's Hg.
Like the element.
 
sbi
6:37 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Darn. Thanks. Not one of my best days, this one.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah. It's called Hargurial, right?
 
lol
 
Mercurial = mercury = quicksilver = Hg
 
I quite like Mercurial, actually
 
sbi
6:38 PM
(Just in case: No, I was not serious.)
 
it works pretty well for a guy who's never used source control before and now still only uses commit and push/pull
 
except for when you thought it'd lost your last week's worth of work ;)
 
yeah
that was a bit of a RAEG moment
but fortunately, it did in fact not lose any of my work at all :P
 
Right, because it's not git.
Git has history destruction built-in.
 
oh shitface
I had a Bison rule which was rule1 : rule2; and since I removed it, Bison now says I have 6 reduce/reduce conflicts
sense: that doesn't make any
oh never mind, my fault
 
6:42 PM
I read this article that says Mercurial is like James Bond and Git is like McGuyver. I remembered that Git follows the Unix philosophy of providing a small set of tools that can be combined with other standard unix tools in order to create new features. I kind of like that idea.
 
I don't
why the hell would I want to do the combining?
Git should do it for me
 
Who doesn't like composition?
 
Xeo
Mornin'
 
I love composition- when I want to make that choice
but I honestly don't give a shit about the vast majority of source control features
so asking me to start composing them is a waste of my time
 
6:44 PM
also, thanks for composition with standard Unix tools, what about the rest of us?
 
@DeadMG I agree that there git should come with a predefined set of convenience utilities .
 
I don't see a problem.
 
sbi
@Xeo You should have asked Santa for a new watch. Your current one is severely broken.
 
That "git follows the Unix philosophy" thing is only relevant for people that want to build new features.
 
ooh, I still have some ginger beer left
 
Xeo
6:45 PM
@sbi I just woke up -> morning
 
@RMartinhoFernandes And run Unix
 
Yeah, I just woke up too.
 
Xeo
My inner clock may be severly broken though, no arguing
 
Git distributions always pack a lot of not so small tools.
No one uses the damn small tools.
 
also, I want to ask a quick question
 
6:46 PM
@DeadMG I don't know how powerful Windows shell is in this regard.
 
I cut variables like int a; because it's directly equivalent to like, auto a = int();
but now I don't know what to do about function arguments, because now you can't force them to be of a specific type
 
you can only default them to int()
 
Er, don't cut that from function arguments?
 
@DeadMG It's not equivalent I think. The second uses value initialization, the first doesn't.
 
6:48 PM
@StackedCrooked This is my language, and I don't have value-initialization :)
 
Ok. It looked like C++ to me :D
So is int a; initialized in your language?
 
it is, I translated it for ease of understanding for the rest of the room
 
it did when it still existed
but I just cut it in favour of auto a = int();
 
Also, this is the C++ room. Stop asking WideC questions. :P
 
6:50 PM
lol
shush you :P
 
@DeadMG But why cut it from function parameters?
 
because I didn't have two separate rules
 
what about class members, assuming you have those? How do I declare an int as a member of some class?
 
I do now, but I want to cut it for the same reason I cut it
 
Fuck it, just do like C#.
 
6:51 PM
@jalf You can have x := int(); as the definition
 
Also you could have two separate rules. One that applies to function parameters, and one for variable declarations. They don't have to fall back to the same rule
 
although you're right, they're not equal, because if T isn't default-constructible...
fuck, why do I need so many syntactic constructs
nerf
 
Xeo
You can easily get rid of them all
Cut your language. :P
 
rofl
I could have postfix types instead of prefix, I guess
 
That's how Go does it.
 
6:56 PM
if I had that, I might be able to cut semicolons
 
x *int; /* pointer to int */ x []int; /* slice (like a view into an array) of ints */
 
no, I cut that
 
What, pointers?
 
no, that syntax
 
6:57 PM
I replaced it with a member function on types
makes more sense anyway
and it doesn't die horrifically as soon as you add more than a level or two
 
btw, what do your comments look like? Please tell me you ditched /**/
 
no different to C++'s comments
I didn't see any reason to change it
but I can change it whenever I like
 
Always bugs me that /**/ can't be nested. SML uses (**) instead, which isn't important, but allows you to nest them, which IMO is :)
 
Hey, that's like Pascal!
 
there's no lexical reason that they can't be nested
 
7:01 PM
So (* this is a comment (* and so is this *) *) won't crap out when you try to compile it
 
they can't be nested because I didn't implement nesting, not because there's anything specific about /**/
if I wanted to implement nested /**/ then I could
although as it's in a different algorithmic class to the rest of lexing, it'd be irritating to do, but I could
 
@jalf /* this is a comment /* and so is this */ */ Nothing prevents you from making this work.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I know, That's why I said above that the fact that they use parentheses instead of slashes isn't a big deal
although I think I might find it confusing if you reuse /* */, but makes it behave differently
but the exact syntax for comments obviously isn't important
 
We can nest #if 0 statements.
 
heh
 
7:07 PM
Anyway, if I'm writing comments (as in, words, not code), nested comments are not important. But if I'm commenting a large swath of code I need to use #if 0 to be safe.
 
Not so fancy though.
 
That's annoying.
 
I like to use #if 0 for commenting out code because the syntax coloring keeps working.
 
yeah, exactly. The fact that I can't safely comment out a block of code, without checking that it doesn't already contain /* */ style comments
@StackedCrooked Not in all IDEs. VS greys everything out, afaik
 
7:08 PM
but yeah, it should keep working
 
In the past however, I always used the IDE feature to comment a block using //.
 
it does work in VS
 
Ctrl-K Ctrl-C in VS
 
it greys out as like, reduced saturation, but the colours are still there
 
Ctrl-/ in many other editors.
 
7:09 PM
well
not tested yet, but I'm fairly sure that I just implemented nested comments in my lexer
 
Awesome. I bet 100 rep it's buggy.
 
lol
 
unfortunately, it probably is
that is the nature of these things
 
Test-driven development helps a lot here.
Nature is full of bugs.
6
 
7:13 PM
@StackedCrooked yeah, afaik beetles are by far the most numerous species.
or whatever they're called. Probably something more general than species
 
genus, I believe
 
possibly. I'm not a biologist
 
well, it compiles
that's always a good thing when you use expression templates to generate a function
 
Is "beetle" a formal category (i.e. not just colloquial)?
 
No clue
 
7:15 PM
Wikipedia says it goes by the name coleoptera and it's an order.
 
According to Stepanov in the first chapter of Elements of Programming:
abstract: genus -> species -> entities
concrete: mammal -> mankind -> archimedes
c++: concepts -> types -> objects
 
I just know that biologists like saying that God must be "inordinately fond of beetles"
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes It's a Volkswagen.
 
Oh, that too. The Portuguese colloquial name of the car is the name of a specific species of beetle, not the generic word for "beetle".
 
sbi
@jalf Yeah. When I was a kid, it was said that, when you catch night insects on a central European meadow for a week every night for a few hours, you are likely to discover a new species. I'm not sure this still holds, though.
@RMartinhoFernandes It's originally called "Käfer", which means "beetle".
 
Xeo
7:20 PM
♪~
 
@Xeo I just realize that I can read these kanji: 東方. 東 is east and 方 means direction.
 
Xeo
:)
 
Now I need to quickly verify with Google translate and hope I didn't make a fool of myself.
 
Xeo
nope
 
lol...
I still remember asking my cousin to translate something from English to Japanese for me. She gave it to me with "simplified" Kanji...
 
7:26 PM
@Mysticial hi, can you recommend me any openmp book?
 
@Mysticial You studied Japanese as well?
 
@StackedCrooked No, my cousin is native Chinese, but also speaks Japanese and English. I needed something translated from English to both Chinese and Japanese.
@bamboon I don't use any books. I basically google everything.
 
I hope you don't google Google, because that can break the Internet.
 
I Google everything. My knowledge is a collection of code snippits. Sometimes I wish I should bother reading manuals and understand instead of memorize. For example it
is still not clear to me which characters I need to escape when forming a grep regex.
 
regular expressions suck
reading and writing a regex is "Did you remember the special character that means what you wanted?"
 
sbi
7:31 PM
@DeadMG Yeah, and I'm sure you don't give a flying fuck, right?
 
heh
 
@DeadMG because they can't parse HTML...
 
should I ever require regex functionality, I shall fall back to my FSM library and write as that
 
find Tetris -name "*.cpp" | xargs grep "[A-Za-z0-9_]\+\.h"
^ Why do I need to escape the + but not the [ and ] characters?
It's a mystery. I just know from memorization.
There goes my nth self-deprecating statement of the day.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked You aren't even able to count them, right?
 
7:34 PM
When I was dabbling with Ruby (which uses Perl regular expressions) the regex syntax was much less confusing.
@sbi I can't. n++.
If you google google google you break it twice.
 
lol
 
@Mysticial ^^ That's what the academics tell you ;)
 
7:50 PM
@DeadMG I just looked at your blog and it's full of stuff about parsing / compiling. Are you trying to build your own language or something like that?
 
yes
 
Nice, is there already something "visible"?
 
no
well, there is a lexer, a parser, and the beginnings of the semantic analyzer
whether or not that counts as "visible" is another question
 
That's visible enough, do you have it somewhere online (github?) ?
 
I dob
but since it currently doesn't work, I feel no need to share :P
 
7:55 PM
^^
 
Xeo
Hm. Terraria for 2.50€
 
buy it if you have some time to play it
hmm
I wish Bison would show an example input and the two example parse trees for reduce/reduce conflicts
 
Xeo
First I'd need some money on my bank account
 
I can't see how the hell an initializer_statement is a valid statement
 

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