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11:00 AM
well, until someone proposes a standard for morals, anyway
 
@Als cannot convert TonyTheTiger to @x4d33746153706c306974, incompatibly type conversion
 
Als
@jalf: I guess so, I said it a few times that if it is just an capitalist co then the disscussion has no meaning
 
@jalf the spec already exist. it's called "supernatural law"
IIRC from my bachelor study
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: reinterpret_cast<@TonyTheTiger>(@x4d33746153706c306974)
 
@TonyTheTiger
 
11:01 AM
@Als Well, it isn't, exactly. But it is an entity created and supported by capitalist companies
 
@Als fail
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: We were using references! :P
 
cout << reinterpret_cast<@TonyTheTiger&>(@x4d33746153706c306974);
 
Als
@jalf: Hmm..I guess it was my misconception
 
also, I don't think you can accuse people of "promoting piracy" just because they chose a bad price point for their product.
 
11:02 AM
what'S the price of ISO c++0x spec if you buy it directly?
 
~320€.
 
I've just noticed that ISO/IEC 14882:2011 has an RSS feed on www.iso.org. It's probably a bit late; I'm not expecting a high volume of updates.
 
Als
@jalf: In a capitalistic setup - no, if moral based set up - yes
 
also do you get a nice book or just the PDF?
 
11:02 AM
's
c++11 now
 
I don't care. i will keep calling it c++0x
 
Als
@AlfPSteinbach: is your keyboard broken or you are typing in slow mo
 
@Als Even in a "moral based setup", is it immoral to be wrong?
 
just like some people still call c99 "c99" and can't call it simply "C"
 
11:03 AM
or make mistakes? I don't see how it can be
 
C++0b
 
@Tony : have you worked with zeus botnet?
 
making mistakes or to be wrong is always immoral...
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Is it wrong to say C99 if you want to refer to the 9899:1999 standard?
 
Als
@jalf: I guess it would be wrong to cause to something which you can control and prevent the illegal activites that follow
 
11:04 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes it's retarded to say "In C it's fine but in C99 it's blah"
 
@JohannesSchaublitb That would only make sense if people called the then upcoming C Standard C99.
 
law and morals rarely coincide
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Ok.
 
and nor should they
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 no, but I've heard of it
 
11:05 AM
@Als They're not causing it. They cannot control it.
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: So now you can work on it
 
It might be immoral to go "if we pick a high enough price point, we can maximize the number of people who pirate our product". But I don't see how it can possibly be immoral to go "We need to cover our costs. We know that X corporations need our product, and they will pay whatever we charge. So price it so that those X corporations will cover our costs"
 
@Als huh?
 
Als
@RMartinhoFernandes: They can, Separate price ranges for individuals and co's
 
@Als They don't want to sell it to individuals.
 
11:06 AM
@Als but how do you know what will happen? How can ISO know the effects on piracy that their pricing will have? They can guess, but nothing more than that
 
Als
@RMartinhoFernandes: So how is an individual supposed to have it?
 
And their guess is "this product is only of interest to corporations. And they don't pirate"
 
@Als pay the full price for it
 
@Als buying it. But individuals aren't who ISO intends to buy it
so they're not really too bothered about what individuals think of their price point
 
It's not their market.
 
Als
11:07 AM
@jalf: So how does an individual buy it?
 
@TonyTheTiger : you are one of them or not?
 
Als
They can't at that insane high price
 
@Als The same way companies do it: From ISO or the relevant national body
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 what do you mean, "one of them"?
 
@Als So? I can't buy a private jet either
 
11:07 AM
@Als So they don't.
 
the most weird shit is if they say "In ANSI C it's fine but in ISO C99 it's blah"
 
You don't buy what you can't afford. It's simple.
 
Als
@jalf: but if you could steal it and wanted to have it badly you would
 
The entire point is that ISO doesn't worry about whether individuals can afford their standard
 
@Als That's your fault.
 
11:08 AM
@Als Yes. And the point is?
 
@TonyTheTiger : the guyz who works with msf
 
MSF ?
is this Microsoft Foundation
 
Are you saying Boeing should price their jets so individuals can afford them too, to minimize piracy?
 
Als
@RMartinhoFernandes: So eventually all individuals who want to have an standard of the language they work in and find it insanely high priced are at blame?
Doesn't convince me
 
@Als What does "blame" have to do with anything?
 
11:09 AM
@jalf It's quite expensive to copy a fighter jet, though, even if you don't want to build a safety case for it.
 
@Als No. All individuals who steal it are at fault.
 
ISO is simply trying to sell the product to their target audience
what people outside the target audience do is their own concern
 
Als
@jalf: Just saying that the co's are target audience doesn;t change the fact that most dedicated deveolpers of the language will have a copy of it too.
 
What if I find $30 insanely high priced? Or $3?
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 yes I've worked with MSF, yes
 
11:10 AM
technically unauthorised reproduction is not stealing
 
MSF = MetaSploit Framework
 
@awoodland Whatever.
 
@Als But saying that others want a copy of it doesn't change the fact that ISO isn't concerned about whether or not they get a copy of it
 
Als
@RMartinhoFernandes: You go steal it, it you can.
 
@Als See, you are the one promoting that.
 
11:11 AM
@Tony you know i had 30k bots when i was using zeus
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 for what purpose?
 
Als
@jalf: if they are supposed to be the representative of the language, shouldn't they be concerned of the people who will use that language?
 
yes unnauthorized reproduction is stealing/raping, depending on what you reproduce
 
for stealing their accounts
 
Als
@RMartinhoFernandes: What are you talking about?
 
11:11 AM
Once again, me wanting a private jet doesn't mean corporiations producing them have an obligation to make it affordable to me. I just don't figure in their calculations
@Als The people who use the language generally rely on textbooks
written by people who could afford the standard
Or employe by companies that could afford the standard
 
@Als What I linked to: "You go steal it, it you can." (I assume it's "if you can").
 
Als
@jalf: How true is that? How many of us here have the standard, may i ask?
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 I do NOT condone using things learned as hacker to go perpetrate illegal activities, if you are doing that, then I have no further business talking to you
 
The correct answer would be "You don't buy it." not "You go steal it."
 
Als
@RMartinhoFernandes: Why are you jumping down to morals of the users then?
You expect the body to not be moralistic don't expect the users to be that either
 
11:13 AM
wat
 
@Als It's true enough. First, we aren't "typical" C++ programmers, and second, it doesn't matter if it is an accurate description of individual C++ programmers
 
@Als The ISO are not doing anything illegal. So I expect the "users" not to do anything illegal as well.
 
once again, individual C++ programmers just aren't of interest to ISO
 
Als
@x4d33746153706c306974: You silly fellow you got flagged
 
because ISO is, once again, a group of large entities with a common interest in standardizing the C++ language. Their concern is to make sure that MSVC, Clang and GCC do the same thing when fed the same code. They're not concerned about how you or I learn about the language
 
11:14 AM
@Als : i was just hoaxing
 
Als
@jalf: uh...*typical* thats just branching the main in to a new branch
 
you took it so serious
 
Als
grr i got flagged too
:P
 
@Als wait wut?
 
Als
@x4d33746153706c306974: I didn't but someone did flag you
 
11:15 AM
minor revelation: unique_ptr kinda sucks
 
i can't see i got flagged
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 you need > 10k rep to see flags
 
@DeadMG how so?
 
because it's kinda irritating to maintain
 
11:16 AM
i flagged @Als
 
@Tony : can you tell the flag?
 
Als
@jalf: hmm agreed, I think we agreed on that a while ago, why did we differ again?
 
@jalf And the standard is terrible for learning the language.
 
I changed memory allocation schemes, and now I have to go back and change every unique_ptr in a hundred classes
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 no cause I only have 8K rep
 
11:16 AM
"you can only counterflag messages that have been flagged" oh what insight
 
Als
@x4d33746153706c306974: I just did tell you, and someone flagged me for telling you lol
 
@Als you confuse me by quoting the wrong messages ;)
 
@Als : lol
 
@RMartinhoFernandes aye
 
@DeadMG A typedef can help. But only so much when it comes to funny business with custom deleters.
 
Als
11:17 AM
@jalf: That was that robot @RMartinhoFernandes, he created confusion
 
maybe if I had a template typedef
I want to use type deduction, but C++0x's type deduction sucks tremendously
 
@JohannesSchaublitb did you flag me?
 
@Als yea blame the bot
 
@Als, remember that ISO is little more than a meeting room for the C++ industry. They can agree to standardize the behavior of the language, but they all have financial stakes in the industry, and the last thing they want is for ISO to compete with them
 
Als
btw, just out of curiosity who flagged me? and why? for telling the guy he got flagged?
 
11:18 AM
@x4d33746153706c306974 i did NOT flag you!
 
flagging is some kind of game?
 
@Als: Some prick kept doing it to Martinho as well
 
Als
hehe i got flagged again, why?
 
Companies represented in the ISO committee might be running a business selling C++ textbooks. They'd be hurt big time if people just bought the standard instead ;)
 
please do NOT whine about flags
2
 
11:19 AM
@Als it's a safe bet that it's the self-proclaimed hacker
 
the problem is, once it gets counter-flagged too much, the mods can't see it
so when someone gets flagwhored, they can't step in
 
@JohannesSchaublitb also don't flag people in the first place
 
because we counter-flag it and it goes away
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 it is if you want to get on people's ignore lists
 
Als
@DeadMG: In all frankness that prick is amongst us this very moment
 
11:19 AM
yeah, we just don't know who
 
Can you flag if you're here anonymously (i.e. not logged in)?
 
Als
@jalf: :) looks fine to me
 
Let me fire up porn mode and check.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Doubt it, but dk for sure
lol, porn mode
 
Good, we can't.
 
11:20 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes how does that work?
 
Als
Yeah the robot might be the one @RMartinhoFernandes
lol
 
@AlfPSteinbach Chrome calls it "Incognito".
 
@jalf i DO flag people if appropriate
 
11:21 AM
@Als Why would I do that?
 
Microsoft call it "buying a present"
 
@JohannesSchaublitb yes, but it hardly ever is. It's definitely an exception to the rule
 
I've been scarred by this flagging business before.
 
Als
@JohannesSchaublitb: you are a troll we should flag you everytime you speak
:P
 
oh fuck
can't type deduce on the base class in nested classes?
who came up with this shitty language? :(
 
11:21 AM
It's like with gotos. The rule is "don't fucking do it", and if you run into a situation where it is appropriate, you might have to bend the rule. But don't rephrase the rule into "it's ok to do it"
 
@DeadMG Bjarne
 
Als
@RMartinhoFernandes: you might do it subconsciously, you are a robot
 
The "valid" / "invalid" button confuses me
 
I didn't know bots had a subconscious?
 
what is the button to say "yes, this message is valid it is not spam" or "yes this spam flag is valid" ?
?
 
11:23 AM
@TonyTheTiger I don't.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Then click the "not sure" button.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb "invalid" means it's "in valid"
 
@JohannesSchaublitb "valid" agrees with the flag, "invalid" disagrees.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb I think it means the flag is valid/invalid.
 
11:24 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes oh good, then you're a true bot
 
Als
You guys need to vote on this
4
Q: More information is needed in chat Flagged Posts

AlsToday while I was in one of the chatrooms, I noticed a lot of posts being flagged in some other chatroom(I have the necessary 10K rep to vote on flagged posts) but the flagged post just shows the particular post that is flagged and no information or way to seek the information in the context in w...

ok a call back in jiffy
 
@JohannesSchaublitb can you explain what it means here with "partially overlapping objects"?
> The result of assigning to partially overlapping objects
 
a = a;
is valid
because the overlap is complete
but if the two objects would only overlap partially it would be UB
dunno about an example
 
i thin it is about this sort of thing int a = 0; a = (char&)a; // undefined behavior
are you talking about 5.17p8 when you say "here" ?
 
11:34 AM
as an alternative to burger, steak with swiss "røsti" (made from potatoes and onions)
 
@AlfPSteinbach :o I feel a pain in my chest and shooting pains down my arm just looking at the picture.
 
Als
@AlfPSteinbach: I would be fine with the middle ill looking steak piece out from it
:P
 
@TonyTheTiger ah I see now. you have it from an SO answer
 
11:38 AM
Roesti is fucking delicious and it's been too long since I've last had some.
 
well, I think the spec could be clearer. For example, is this equally UB? int a = 0; a = +(char&)a; // undefined behavior
I don't think so
 
@AlfPSteinbach I'd be fine without the tomatoes.
 
yeah without tomatoe it would be a nice burger
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Wouldn't +(char&)a be a temporary distinct from a?
 
10 or +somecharvar is not a temporary
but is merely an int value
yes, not connected to somecharvar anymore
 
Als
11:40 AM
char str[] = "Hello";

strcpy(str, str+1);
That is overlapping strings..
 
the important property that for 10 or +somecharvarorref, there is no object you need to read from
you have the value already
 
So it doesn't apply. No overlap at all.
 
@TonyTheTiger ah I think it is analogous to the rule "The previous value shall only be accessed to determine the new value to be stored"
in the paragraph about side effects in between two adjacent sequence points
and "If the value being stored in an object is accessed from another object that overlaps in any way the storage of the first object, then the overlap shall be exact and the two objects shall have the same type, otherwise the behavior is undefined." defines the conditions under which you can access the "previous" value.
so I think that my second example with the + before it is equally UB
in C++03 at least
I think in C++0x too
But I'm unsure whether the rules are actually related the more I look at it. I think they are actually separate. and that a + here makes no difference.
 
simple
"Does the compiler know what z is when it doesn't know what T is? No? Then it's dependent."
 
11:49 AM
> since definition of z is known at the time template is parsed and is independent of T
No it isn't.
template<>
struct A<int>
{
    double z;
};
There.
 
@DeadMG : but z is int so compiler knows
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 No, it isn't int.
 
no it doesn't
 
try to imagine way to make it not compile. then u know.
 
@x4d33746153706c306974 As @RMartinhoFernandes just showed, there might be a specialization which defines z to have another type (or to not exist at all)
 
11:52 AM
aah
Thanks to you all
 
if you would inherit from A<int> and would say B::z, then in C++03 it would be dependent but in C++0x it would be non-dependent
 
@JohannesSchaublitb : but you can't scopify local members like B::z ?
 
@JohannesSchaublitb ?
 
i am assuming you meant struct B : A<int> {}
 
@JohannesSchaublitb could you put that in an answer to my SO question?
 
11:58 AM
@AlfPSteinbach what are you asking about?
a well-formed question may be better suitable here to clear things up
 
@JohannesSchaublitb : but you can't scopify when declaring local members like B::z , can ?
 
im sorry I don't know what you mean
what does "scopify" mean and what is a "local member like B::z" ?
@TonyTheTiger i would be glad to add something to your question. what's the link?
 
ohh i misunderstood your previous answer , now got it
one thing i would say : you all are awesome at C++
 
I am a Genius™
 
12:03 PM
And what is new?
 
7
Q: What are 'partially overlapping objects'?

Tony The TigerI was just going through all the possible Undefined Behaviours in this thread, and one of them is The result of assigning to partially overlapping objects I wondered if anyone could give me a definition of what "partially overlapping objects" are and an example in code of how that could po...

so what have I done wrong here
 
You need a reinterpret_cast.
Cannot implicitly convert between different pointer types in C++ if none of them is void*.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh I see, but it is allowed per strict aliasing rules of pointers, right?
 
You can alias anything with char*.
 
12:20 PM
@TonyTheTiger > Escape sequences in which the character following the backslash is not listed in Table 7 are conditionally-supported, with implementation-defined semantics.
Now those things are implementation-defined, not UB!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes euh it was listed as UB in that list
> A backslash followed by a character that is not part of the specified escape codes in a character or string constant.
unless I understood it wrong
 
Seems like it changed in the new standard.
(It changed in C99 as well, but in C99 it's a parse error)
 
but what I was gonna ask, is why is endianness an issue here?
@RMartinhoFernandes oh I see
@RMartinhoFernandes maybe we should remove it from the UB list then?
or put a note with it?
 
sbi
@jalf This being C++, I'm sure even a simple type-safe null pointer will have its quirks and problems. We just didn't have time enough to run into them.
@Mahesh I hadn't heard of him, no, but I searched for the names when I saw them at youtube, so I know why you ask. I suppose he just isn't known in the western world.
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, good point. It's high time I posted a new version anyway, there's quite a few things I have added.
@TonyTheTiger Oh, is there a list of things causing UB? (And if not, can we make one?)
 
12:25 PM
@sbi well, that nullptr solved a problem with using perfect forwarding in cases where the NULL macro was being passed, if the thing being forwarded accepted a pointer in the args, and NULL was passed, it was being deduced as type intwhich is not compatible with the pointer type
@RMartinhoFernandes hmmm, yea that's why I wondered what the issue was
@sbi yep and I've been studying it, and asking questions :) Heheh
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger I know what it is for: All I'm saying is that I don't believe that it is a simple enough concept for C++ to not to be able to sneak in few quirks and problems
 
@sbi oh I see
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Great. Shouldn't that be an FAQ entry?
 
@sbi perhaps you know this:
5 mins ago, by Tony The Tiger
but what I was gonna ask, is why is endianness an issue here?
 
@sbi It is :P
 
12:28 PM
@sbi I guess perhaps you missed that becoming a FAQ entry...
 
@TonyTheTiger I made a note about the C++11 behaviour.
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger Perhaps I know, but this might be the last warm and sunny weekend this year, and I am in the process of leaving the house and go to my garden. :) Sorry, but I will not look at code now.
@RMartinhoFernandes Great, thanks!
 
@sbi WHAT??
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger I think it happened after I suggested it. :)
 
@sbi lol
@sbi sure I get it :)
 
sbi
12:30 PM
@StackedCrooked We have beautiful summer weather today and forecasted for tomorrow. I will spend the weekend outside.
 
@sbi Hey
 
sbi
@ManofOneWay Hi!
 
@sbi What do you think, should I buy Accelerated C++ or should I wait until it or any other good book has been updated with C++11 stuff?
 
when Apple starts making clothes
 
sbi
@ManofOneWay AC++ is 250 very condensed pages, showing a style of C++ programming that became significantly more mainstream with this book. It's worth every cent spent on it, if you can afford it, buy it now, and a C++11 book later.
Ok, I pack my stuff now and then I leave.
 
12:36 PM
@TonyTheTiger I would have expect the iPants Pro for Women to be a lot more skimpy. You know, for pros.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes lol
 
12:55 PM
4
A: Initializer-list-constructing a vector of noncopyable (but movable) objects

Kerrek SBMaybe this clause from 8.5.4.5 explains it (my emphasis): An object of type std::initializer_list is constructed from an initializer list as if the implementation allocated an array of N elements of type E, where N is the number of elements in the initializer list. Each element of that ...

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