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7:03 PM
Not being a native english speaker, I don't know all circumstances where they can be used as synonyms, but for the most basic use you can think that:
A affects B if A is the cause of an effect measured in B
 
not being a native English speaker probably makes one more likely to get it correct.
 
But that's mainly just an idiosyncrasy of the English language.
Honestly, "cause" could really be used in those cases with the same meaning and be less cause of confusion.
In those cases, effect means "to bring about". Cause has that meaning, and doesn't carry with it a common meaning so different from this situational use of "effect"
 
"influence" would be a better fit imo
anyway, where's the fun in an unambiguous language?
 
If that's what you want.... then "affect" works.

But when you say you want to effect a change, you want to bring about a change.
At which point "influence" is completely wrong.
 
oh, I thought we were talking about affect :D
true then
 
7:19 PM
I was just commenting that "effect" as a verb is really a fallacy. "Cause" works just as well and doesn't complicate the language.
I would really like a crack at simplifying the English language into a standardized rule set. I feel the language does itself a disservice. Also, if the language were standardized, it would be far easier to learn and would dominate the global "marketshare".
 
yeah, that's why esperanto is such a big hit ;)
Languages are popular because they're popular, not because they're simple and concise and elegant
Hell, you're in a C++ chat. C++ is the ultimate proof ;)
 
@Xaade English is currently dominating a big part of the "languages" market share, as means for communication across different nationalities
 
The best way to make a language popular is really to convince people that it's what they're already speaking. Look at C++. It caught on because it was able to convince a horde of C programmers that "look, you practically already know C++!". English is popular because a huge number of people consider themselves able to speak english. Even if it is sometimes with a small vocabulary and a broken grammar.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas That it is.... but in its current state, the language is prone to miscommunication that can be costly.
 
An "English lite" would have the huge disadvantage that no one believe they speak it
@Xaade that's true for every language. English isn't worse than most
 
For example. A lot of helping verbs are useless.... chinese doesn't have them and still doesn't need them.
 
all natural language is prone to the same miscommunication... the sentence:
I saw the boy in the mountain with a telescope, is exactly as confusing in Spanish as it is in English (who has the telescope?)
 
he is jumping.
What does is actually convey. If anything it serves to confusion.
He = jumping?
 
Chinese has plenty of inefficiencies and ambiguities, from what I know
 
That it does
But I'm saying in this particular case, it wins
 
7:27 PM
Sure, but you can say that for absolutely any language. You can always come up with a case where it's cleaner or simpler than some other language
As a non-native english speaker, I think English is relatively straightforward
Sure, it's inconsistent, but so is Danish, and so is French.
 
And my point is to take the best of all those advantages and merge them.... instead of trying to determine which existing language is the best.
 
But "the best" of all those languages is the number of people who speak them
nothing more, nothing less
 
For example.... it doesn't serve any good to place adjectives before nouns.
 
A language spoken by 5 people isn't best at anything. A language spoken by 3 billion is near perfect
because the purpose of a language is to facilitate communication
And you can only communicate with those who speak the same language as yourself
 
A language spoken incorrectly by 3 billion in confusing ways isn't doing any good.
 
7:30 PM
Yes it is
Look at the world
 
I'm not saying make english unrecognizable..... I'm saying make it less confusing.
 
We get plenty of benefit from many people speaking the same languages imperfectly
But by changing something that people know, you're causing confusion, not taking it away.
 
Ok, well if you don't see the benefit in removing the excess and limiting the confusion, then I don't really see how you define more confusion as better.
Ok Ok Ok
Here.... let me show you what I mean
 
besides, what's the point? Language changes all the time. 60 years from now, it'll be just as inconsistent as it is today ;)
 
Rule...... Effect is a noun, Affect is a verb..... always.... no exceptions.
There
I didn't really change the language....
 
7:32 PM
There what?
 
I just removed a source of confusion
 
English is simple enough, even with the exceptions.
 
You just told hundreds of millions of people that what they know is wrong
YOu just ensured that everyone who reads a newspaper article where the referee ruled something, will have no clue what it means
 
This seems like a nice place to drop in when [Mal de mer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasickness) sets in. (First time here!)

Anyway to through my tupence worth in I read this the other day about [entropy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_%28information_theory%29) in comunication.
 
Yeah, and we do it all the time in the business world.
 
7:33 PM
I learnt Italian to speak to the Pope,
Spanish to speak to my mother,
English to speak to my aunt,
German to speak to my friends,
and French to speak to myself

Charles V
2
 
@Xaade The business world nearly wrecked our entire economy too. I'm not sure that's an example to emulate ;)
 
@Brandrew Markdown only works for single-line messages.
 
But really, we can just look at the facts. If you're right, then simply by proposing a simpler english, you will make it popular
If I am right, then the "traditional" english will stay popular
Do we have a bet? ;)
 
R! - You've got to learn!
 
@jalf Well wasn't that pretty. No, global politics did that... the business world followed the business of politics.... down the drain.
 
7:35 PM
@AProgrammer I had heard a variant of that before, where French was learnt by the king to speak to his lovers
 
@Xaade That's a pretty selective point of view
iirc, it was italian to lovers, and french to the king... Or something?
 
Then again, according to the Spanish version of wikiquote, there are quite a few different quotes from Carlos I (Spanish name for Charles V) regarding the languages
 
@jalf So was yours
 
@Xaade but to put it simply, assume I decided to learn a new language tomorrow. Which language do you think I would pick? The one that takes one year to master, and allows me to communicate with one other person? Or the one that takes a couple of years, but allows me to communicate with hundreds of millions of people?
 
7:38 PM
You didn't consider over-consumption, uneducated consumers, global market, political climate, irresponsible buyers, political pressure, etc.
 
I know also "I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to the men and German to my horse"
 
You just blame a certain faction, just like everyone else is doing, resulting in the ever lengthening circle of finger pointing that everyone else is doing.
 
Someone who knows "real" english should be able to understand your "simple" english, sure. But someone who only knows your "simple english" won't be able to understand a "real" english speaker. In other words, it'd be useless
No, I don't "blame a single faction". I made a point, that "the business world" doing something doesn't necessarily make it a wise action
I never said I blamed only them
or that I cared about the blame at all.
 
But you labeled them as categorically unfit to model after in any aspect....
 
where did I say that?
I don't believe I used any of those words
 
7:41 PM
@jalf here
 
I don't see teh words "categorically unfit", or "in any aspect" there
do you?
 
I'm not sure that's an example to emulate ;)
Simply because I mention, that the business world uses a smaller subset of english to avoid confusion.
 
"I'm not sure" <- indicates uncertainty or incompleteness of proof, the opposite of "categorically unfit" and "in any aspect"
In other words, I did not say what you claim I said
If you're going to discuss, please do us the favor of sticking to what we say, not what you dreamt that we said
 
According to that link:
Spanish: women, God (3), troops
Italian: women (2), diplomats
French: government, men(2), women(2)
German: horse (2), troops, servants
English: horse (2), ducks
Hungarian: horse
Check: devil
 
Oh comon..... go tell a woman that "I'm not sure you look good in that dress".
 
7:44 PM
@Xaade come on yourself. If you are going to tell me what I think or what I mean then GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!
I SAY WHAT I MEAN AND I MEAN WHAT I SAY AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS A FUCKING PROBLEM
 
Basically his horses were very well educated (three languages), and he did not make that much distinctions between men, women and troops
 
@jalf I planted maggots in your brain....
 
Can we move on now?
@Xaade yes and you already proved that you're willing to bend the truth and lie in order to make your point, so I don't really care what you say you did to my brain
keep your maggots to yourself, and go accuse someone else of lying, why don't you?
 
I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. -- Alan Greenspan, on a conference as an out-of-jail answer to a question
 
very few things can really piss me off, but when you claim that you know what I think better than I do, you've found one of them
 
7:47 PM
@jalf Aha... that's your goal all along.... to goad me into pissing you off. You sir, are proficient at mind control.......
 
But just to round off the other argument, only one group of people came out of the economic crisis as winners: the big business people, who'd already made billions of dollars running companies into the ground. Whoever was to blame, I think it's safe to assume that the people who actually profited from it were involved
Yes, and my mind control powers just flagged your comment as offensive
 
@jalf Bad assumption.... because who profited is not always visible.
 
the people who made billions of dollars profited
whoever else may have profited are not relevant to the point I am making
 
You mean like.... politicians....
 
The politians who lost the election when the economy crashed, you mean?
 
7:50 PM
Not everyone who profits off of a collapsing market is to blame, and not everyone who is to blame appears to profit.
 
Anyway, I've said all I care to say to you
 
You really don't get that it's all a show do you. Republicans win, Democrats win.... doesn't matter. The point is to get the public to care about something other than what actually happened.... then to turn that outrage into votes.
 
You don't really read what I say, do you?
Look what I said just a little bit up: it doesn't matter who else may or may not have profited. I made the point that one group of people certainly did profit
anyway, trying to debate anything with you is clearly a waste of time. Good night
 
And I'm trying to make the point that you've been distracted
Some money market guru making money off of losses in the market by hedging against market failure did not cause the housing market collapse.... the two are as related as monkey shit and apple pie.
I mean.... ever notice why arab problems resulting in gas prices increases always occur during spring break and summer.
 
8:07 PM
@Xaade not always, I recall a couple of times that gas prices were a problem during wintertime, worsened by Russia blocking gas to some of the eastern europe countries
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas The gas price does respond to world events. However I was noting more along the lines of noticing that world events seem to always occur during spring break (disregarding outlying events).
 
the world is not really at a calm now
 
Gas prices follow a particularly rhythmic pattern of going up during times of high travel. The oil companies can always find some excuse because there's always a world event to blame.
It's a distraction.
The same thing occurred during the economic crisis. The government had the whole population turned against Wall-Street, when Wall-Street was just exposing the symptoms of a bigger problem.

Facing reality, Wall-Street is aimed at making a buck. It never fails to keep this high priority. So IF in fact Wall-Street and Big banks and Big Business was mostly to blame for this problem, why did we do so well for so long?
 
There is a much higher fuel consumption during winter times than during summers
 
For jalf a big pet peeve is people telling him what he's thinking, for me it's people always adding to the class wars.... blaming the rich for a crappy world.
The short of it, is even though jalf didn't necessarily place all the blame on business, the thing is that he's apparently satisfied that it's good enough to just point the finger at big business.

Even though I can't know what he's thinking. What a man holds in his hearts plays on his lips.

I can't be for sure this is what he thinks, but the majority of the people think this way and the way his snark remark jumped out is the same id
@DavidRodríguezdribeas fuel yes, hence the increase in heating costs, etc.
@DavidRodríguezdribeas However, the price of gas goes up because gas is more expensive to produce in the summer, and there's more demand.
It's just that they always have some world problem to blame instead of just being truthful about the supply/demand curve.
 
sbi
8:30 PM
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Where politics are not wanted.
That is because there's so many other places where you can bang your heads at each other, not because I'm not interested.
 
hai guise
whassup mah homies
 
sbi
Well, they were discussing the complication of the English language. (The later part never happened.) From your writing it seems that doesn't concern you, though...
 
computerised languages exist for strict people
I prefer flexibility in my natural languages
 
sbi
Um. I thought English is your natural language??
 
it is
so I take a very flexible definition of what I consider to be acceptable English
 
sbi
8:40 PM
Ah. I hadn't noticed. :)
 
I know
 
sbi
(Never mind this grumpy old man lamenting. It's just that us furriners aren't flexible enough to play with your language the way you natives do.)
 
eh
I usually find it's more to do with age
I find that older people tend to prefer stricter rules
maybe it's just because they're old, maybe it's just because society used to be strict and now isn't
 
I'm not natively english, but you knew that already
haha
 
sbi
@DeadMG I think you're wrong. I remember that even the old Greeks lamented about their youth being debauched. If what you said was true, the several thousand years since then ought to have taken down all rules by now.
 
8:45 PM
heh
I never said that that flexibility becomes incorporated
and, well, the intervening several thousand years has taken down nearly all rules, compared to the complexity of the society
 
sbi
I think it's just that the old ones prefer their rules. And while they insist on the peculiarities of the language they grew up with, they abhorrently violate the youth's dress code.
 
there is that
 
sbi
@DeadMG That's blatantly wrong. If anything, we have several orders of magnitude more rules than the old Greeks had. Well, make that several orders of magnitudes of orders of magnitudes. At the very least.
 
@sbi: That's because we fundamentally have a more complex society
we have rules governing the use, especially of machines, that simply did not exist
not because for a certain area of society, we have more rules
 
sbi
If the old Greeks bemoaning the youth breaking all the rules was true, and if the countless generations in between them and us bemoaning the same was true, there shouldn't have been any rules left since then. (Heck, Hammurabi managed to hew all of his laws into a single piece of stone. Nowadays this would take a piece of rock the size of Mount Everest.)
@DeadMG Of course we do. Just compare your country's trade laws to those of the most complexest societies 4,000 years ago.
 
8:52 PM
like I said, that doesn't mean that the new changes become incorporated
and, I think that trade is a vastly more complex situation now than it was
 
sbi
@DeadMG Yeah. And since it is, we have vastly vastly more rules. I know the cause. However, the result of this is that we are following more rules than any of our ancestors did. Which makes the old ones bemoaning the youth breaking down all rules a fallacy. As much as I feel the opposite myself, logic dictates that.
 
doesn't mean you have to follow them
like trade laws
I don't follow any trade laws- since I don't do any trading
etc
and I certainly don't follow lots of societal rules that would have been attempted to be imposed generations past
 
sbi
@DeadMG If you want to do trade, you have to.
 
true
but nobody is going to trade, and employ people, and develop nuclear power plant software, and build airplanes, and maintain roads, and care for the elderly, and etc
 
Did either of you to think about the way new rules come in? about 100 years ago, it was perfectly acceptable for some one about 20 to have a 'wife' in here early teens
 
sbi
9:00 PM
@DeadMG Of course you do. The moment you go to a supermarket's cashier to pay what you bought, you have to follow trade laws, and so has the cashier. And they are very much more complex than they used to be 4,000 years ago.
 
It's a constantly changing miasma of 'rules'
 
pretty sure that as the purchaser, I only have to not steal or be violent
 
they are not that much more complex. It's now we have a lot more legislation saying the shop owners have to do these things
 
sbi
@DeadMG I don't know about your country's trade laws, but here you enter an oral contract the moment you buy a toothbrush, and there's laws associated with that which both sides have to follow, none of which the old Greeks dreamed about in their worst nightmares.
 
hmm
I don't think that there is anything like that here
although, of course, the ridiculousness of my country's laws continue to surprise me in many cases
 
9:11 PM
You English as well ain't you @Dead we do also have these 'technical' trade laws. Items are meant to be fit for purpose, and you are entitled to refund as long as the item is defunct in some way. It is very complex yes, but then we have the ability to tack all this stuff now. Keeping tax records for 7 years is dam hard when you can't read or write I am sure
 
I'm just wondering if you have to pack a lot of objects into an 1d array are there some standard practices how to do it?
 
@Nils: What do you mean?
std::vector<T> objects; objects.push_back(T());
 
well for example use cuda with an oop c++ software
cuda only supports a subset of c++
 
Do you mean if you have an array of Red values, another or Green and another of Blue, and want to get one array of RGB values?
 
so you have to pack the data somehow and then cudaMemcpy(..) it
 
9:21 PM
man
why is matrix mathematics so complex? so used to just D3DXMatrixInverse(...);
 
well, lets say you have three arrays of floats, each 100 long. you would make a new array, 300 long, copy over the elements in a for loop. then memcpy from the new array. If you want interlace your arrays you would do it with one loop, other wise you could memcpy each array one at a time into the big array
@DeadMG dude, it's not that bad. Besides, either write or get alibrary to do it for you. Not point doing your head in over it
 
I am writing
looking up the algorithms on wikipedia
the articles don't link to each other very cleanly
 
ah yer, that's not fun. My maths lecture was great, made it very clear that this is something we learn how to do, then never actually do it manually.
 
heh yes your not supposed to implement matrix operations
there is BLAS
 
no
they're dynamically sized, which is not what I'm looking for
 
9:27 PM
humm
 
many of the definitions seem somewhat recursive, but don't really explain it
 
What exactly r u trying to do @DeadMG?
 
write a matrix inverse function
and determinant
 
for matrices with a certain size?
 
no
if you use only 2x2 or 3x3 matrices there are cheap shortcuts, but not for n-sized
 
9:33 PM
I would just check the docs in MATLAB, they usually refer to the papers explaining the implementation
well boost has some, as well as Intel, AMD and Nvidia
I'm off cu
 
bb
 
 
2 hours later…
11:15 PM
Mostly because of lifespan and the need for large families.

Needs prevail social ideologies.
Mostly because the English language has a lot of nuances that complicate communication.
You can be plural, they can be singular. Helping verbs not really helping anything at all. He is jumping..... is = be which is assigning a state of being. Jumping is not a state of being.... etc.
"He jumping" would be enough to convey the thought.
He jumped. He jumping. He jumps.
He jumping is the only one that really needs a helping verb according to our language.... but the information is still redundant.
Words that have meaning that don't really need to have that meaning. Like the verb form of the word EFFECT.
He effects a change in policy.
That only adds confusion. It doesn't add anything to the English language that it didn't already have.
He enacts a change in policy.

I don't mind have synonyms, I mind having effect suddenly change its meaning for no apparent benefit, but a huge detriment to readability and translation.
 
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