« first day (142 days earlier)      last day (4809 days later) » 
00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

8:00 PM
developers of games, server apps, etc...
 
Developers of gamers are very different from developers of scientific stuff, which is very different from servers
 
C++ is probably more used because it is older then C#. People are more used to C++ then C#. Although similar, their are different ways of doing things
 
And most server apps aren't really high perf. They have all the time in the world because they're stuck between a slow network link and a slow database
C++ is used in many industries because it was used 5 years ago
 
@jalf that's true
 
If you have an old C++ code base, then you're not going to just throw it out because writing in another language might give better results
 
8:01 PM
@jalf so you say it doesn't really matter at the end of the day... purely talking about perf
 
Most server apps would not be done in C# because it is tightly linked to the windows OS, and people like using linux servers
 
In some industries, C++ is used because of the extra control it gives you, not overall performance
For low-latency/realtime apps, a GC might be unacceptable, because even though it's quite efficient on average, it might stall your program for a millisecond when you can least afford it
 
so what is with this idea that C++ is faster then C#? that's just plain bullshit then...
 
So then it may be preferable to go with the more deterministic cleanup mechanisms of C++
 
I'm sure I've come across it before
 
8:03 PM
I gues @tony it is similar to peoples belief that C is faster then C++
 
In general, yes. People like to think that "low level" languages are faster, because it's ncie and simple, and it implies that humans are cleverer than compilers, which gives us a warm fuzzy feeling inside ;)
 
@thecoshman yea well I had that idea, but I guess I'll just abolish it
 
But there are special cases where C++ will always be better
C# can't avoid being slower at startup, for example. It has to load more code
And like I said before, if your #1 priority is low latency, then C++ may be preferable because it's more predictable
but in the general case, C++ isn't faster or slower than C#.
 
Their are times where the C++ way of doing something might involve more machine cycles (a real measure of performance I am sure), but that ease of development in C++ of sets that
 
so if I understand correctly, no amount of libraries and levels of indirection between my code and the actual function would make sodding difference? meaning that in .NET you prob have a OpenFile function that you call in the framework, that possibly calls a native func and then into the kernel to open the file. Removing the .NET layer and talking straight to the WinAPI wouldn't make a bit of difference?
 
8:06 PM
 
And in practical terms, not all compilers are equal. A good C++ compiler has been tuned and optimized for 30 years by a huge number of very skilled programmers
 
lol :D
 
So it may be that with todays compilers, one language usually tends to turn out faster code than the other
 
With a good compiler and library probably not @tony
 
Well, layers of indirection obviously make a difference. That's why Python is slow. Instead of your source code being compiled to machine code, it is compiled to bytecode which is interpreted by a separate program. There's a layer of indirection, and it is costly
 
8:07 PM
Also note that C# is a more complete language than Java, it includes value types, for example, that are not present in the later and that can be used to avoid some indirections while still having a modular design
 
but .NET code is JIT'ed so what you end up executing is native machine code, just as you'd get with C++. So there is no layer of indirection
Of course, the code is produced in different ways, and both ways have strengths and weaknesses that may favor one or the other
 
Though you might find that if a function is simply calling another function which calls another function, if a compiler can't remove that automatically their will be a performance hit, minor but their there non the less
 
@jalf: full duck typing also makes a difference, the compiler cannot resolve the call in python, the interpreter has to lookup the function table for the current object (not type) and that is usually an associative container lookup per function call
 
a JIT compiler as used in .NET may be able to apply optimizations that an offline compiler couldn't. On the other hand, offline compilers can usually afford to spend more time doing optimizations
 
but .NET or C++ alike are both optimized by the compiler, where in C++ one prob has more control of that?
 
8:09 PM
There are JITing implementations of Python.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas a sufficiently smart compiler could largely eliminate that. In most of the code, it would be possible to predict the types statically, or at JIT-time. But again, real-world compilers may not be quite good enough for that yet
 
Sam
>where sexual safety is less common than exception safety
 
@Tony control of optimizations, you mean?
 
Sam
ಠ_ಠ
 
@Tony JIT has a bit more information available, which might result in faster code.
 
8:11 PM
In C++, the compiler/optimizer can probably generate slightly faster binaries for good c++ code (programmer having invested time in tailoring the code), but for general non-optimized code, a JIT compiler can actually optimize based on use patterns
 
@PiotrLegnica and on the other hand, it has less time to optimize (you don't want your JIT'ed program to stall for 10 minutes before loading, because it's compiling)
 
Is this not why a JIT program has a sluggish start, but once it has been able to run through sections of code it can optimize them to make them better?
 
unlike the offline C++ compiler which can justifyable take half an hour to compile, because the user never sees it
 
and what about the overhead of the Virtual Machine that has to do the JIT etc? is that not an issue?
 
JITs nowadays are wonderful, each so often I try to read into some of the gory details of optimization and what is being done there is awesome... the VM tagging interpreted code as it is being used, and then triggering a compilation+optimization into machine code for hotspots... while the whole system keeps working
 
8:12 PM
@thecoshman yep. OF course, there are many different JIT strategies, so it varies
 
@jalf Yeah, but then again, IR to machine code doesn't require as much time as C++ to IR, for example.
 
@jalf yes I mean control of optimizations
 
Even with crazy optimisation algorithms.
 
@Tony of course it's an issue, but it's a one-time cost. The JIT compiler kicks in, and while it's working, you're slowed down. But afterwards, it's gone and you're running native code with no extra cost
 
Assumptions being made based on previous usage (including virtual method dispatch) that can speed up every call, with a simple added test that will fall back to the old non-optimized path if the invariants that lead to the optimization are broken...
 
8:14 PM
hmmm interesting... I am obviously still rather ignorant in some areas
good to know
 
So yeah, what I (we) are saying is just that there are many factors that favor both languages. Which one turns out to dominate depends on a lot of things
 
This is missing the basic fact that C++ > C# :P
 
@jalf as a lot of thing in CS "it depends"
haha
 
But if you look up the countless "C++ vs C# performance" questions on SO, I think you'll notice that most of them are along the lines of "I wrote some C++ and some C# code. How come the C++ version isn't faster than the C# one???"
 
C++ just rules! that's all there's to it
 
8:15 PM
For the most part, both languages can be compiled fairly efficiently, so any performance difference is going to be a matter of a few percent
 
@jalf And yet in many cases, instead of comparing apples with apples the test examples will compare apples to pears
 
I am surprised at the lack of "Why is my ASM code not faster then this C++ code?" questions
 
@thecoshman I don't think folks writing asm have a need to ask that question
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas which is just plain silly. We all know apples are better
 
@thecoshman lol... I don't recall any company publicizing that assembler is the way to go after the death of GeoWorks
 
8:16 PM
It depends mostly on what you're writing. In most cases you'd probably want a language that you can write fast and debug well, instead of the one with absolutely fastest generated code.
 
@Tony they will when they don't understand just how hard it can be to write a proper worthwhile program in ASM
 
oh, and being low level can be a curse in terms of optimization too. C++ is extremely hard to optimize in some ways. For example, having pointers can hurt badly, and C# generally doesn't have that problem (aliasing really hurts performance, and it's extremely hard for the compiler to eliminate)
C and C++ aren't very nice languages for an optimizing compiler. A naive compiler will produce fairly efficient code from both languages (unlike higher level languages which require more optimization to become competitive), but on the other hand, many optimizations are made very difficult for the compiler to apply
unlike higher level languages which are a piece of cake for a compiler to optimize
 
@PiotrLegnica Probably the best argument so far. A language is designed to make it easier and faster for you to write code. If a new language lets you write code 10 time faster, but it runs say half the speed, I think a lot of people would be tempted. just for the sheer development speed
Would you consider C# as a 'higher level' language compared to C or C++?
 
Thank you for helping me answer me question. I always come to the conclusion that i still have a lot to learn... so I'll just keep on learning :)
 
@tony I've said it before and I'll say it again, Every day is a learning day
 
8:20 PM
We all have a lot to learn :)
2
 
I dread the day I go to bed not having learnt something
 
@thecoshman in some ways. It's kind of hard to draw a line between "high" and "low" level
C++ has some super high level concepts, while C# is a stone age language in some ways
 
@thecoshman yes I dread that day too...
 
super high level o_0 what would those be?
 
;)
html? ;)
not to start that discussion again :D
 
8:22 PM
yer, don't go their @jalf
 
@jalf I have an aversion for HTML... please don't go there
 
but what are these super high level concpets in C++ ?
 
well, Python is an example of something I'd consider a high level language. In general, functional languages too
 
HTML is hardly a programming language. XSLT is closer. :P
 
@PiotrLegnica they are both enough to drive one crazy
 
8:23 PM
@thecoshman Generic programming and templates, for example. Destructors/RAII, perhaps
 
@Tony XSLT, yeah. But HTML? Unless you're doing super-fancy layouts, it's good enough.
 
in C++, I can pretty much write code without having to worry about resources being released. In C#, I have to wrap everything in using statements or manually call Dispose. How primitive is that?
 
CSS on the other hand is unusable without something on top of it, like Sass.
 
I see their are these levels
1 - Raw binary machine code, pitty the man who works in this
2 - ASM, the lowest level you would work in now days, but you don't want to
3 - Convential 'high level' languages, you C C# Java etc.
4 - Your strange things like SQL and possible XML, that by them selves are meaningless
 
I wouldn't call C high-level.
It's more of a portable assembler.
 
8:26 PM
@PiotrLegnica ever attempted to use the div tag in HTML?
 
really? just how would do the equivalent of malloc in asm?
 
it drove me nuts back in the days
 
@thecoshman but "by itself", C++ is meanignles too. It's just a set of ASCII files.
You need to pass it through specialized software to make it do anything. And the same could be said of a HTML document ,)
HTML is just much more restricted, and much more specialized, obviously
 
@jalf ¬_¬
 
and that's enough of that discussion for me ;)
we've been there before :D
 
8:29 PM
I mean 'languages' that you don't write programs in, their more like specialised formats for certain tasks. i.e. HTML is designed for web pages, SQL for database queries etc.
 
@Tony Sure. I've been using HTML5 elements lately (<header>, etc.), but most of them are still just divs at core.
 
@thecoshman sure, if we're talking about general purpose languages, then HTML (or SQL) aren't very interesting ;)
 
@jalf I've never read such a vicious sounding sentence about HTML :P
 
how do you mean?
 
just the way you italicised 'general purpose'
 
8:34 PM
heh
 
may be I just read to much into it
 
anyway, it's kind of interesting to wonder where you draw the line between "programming" and "not programming". At some point it gets really hard to justify
you kind of end up going "this is programming because it feels like programming, and that isn't because... well, because I say it isn't!"
kind of like with science fiction. No one really has a good definition of that, but we usually know what we mean when we talk about it
 
it's true. I would still consider HTML programming, because you are still trying to solve a problem, it may not be that hard to work out how to get a page looking how you want it, but you still need to work it out
 
until we start asking awkward questions like "so does it have to take place in the future? Does it have to have technology more advanced than ours?"
 
If by science fiction you mean politics... we agree, it is hard to draw a line there
 
8:36 PM
politics too
;)
 
please do not start a politics talk :(
 
anyone here knows haskell?
 
A little bit.
 
I know of haskell, and it sounds like a scary thing
 
this is rather absurd, I have started a tutorial and I am unable to compile a program
This is kind of Hello world level an infinite list of fibonacci numbers:
fib x = 1 : 1 : [ a+b | (a,b) <- zip fib (tail fib )]
Now I want to write a program that just uses it, so as I don't know much, I just tried the absurd:
main = print ( take 5 fib )
And that works, now I want to request the number of elements from the user, but I cannot make it compile...
I tried:
main = do putStrLn "Enter a number"
            n <- getLine
            print ( take n fib )
(correctly indented so that the p in putStrLn is aligned with the n and the p in print
 
8:49 PM
getLine returns String
 
and all I get is a "Parse error in pattern" pointing at the n
 
Try print $ take (read n) fib
 
well... this also fails:
main = do putStrLn "?"
n <- getLine
and the "print $ take (read n) fib" fails with "n not in scope"... I guess I can just keep reading and expect that at some point in the tutorial I will actually be able to do some trivial program :)
 
fib = 1 : 1 : [ a+b | (a,b) <- zip fib (tail fib)]

main = do putStrLn "Enter a number"
          n <- getLine
          print $ take (read n) fib
This works for me.
GHC 6.12.3 from latest Haskell Platform.
 
darn! the vi config that I have here is not the same that I have at work, there were hidden tabs... I guess I should fall back to the {;} of C++
thanks!
 
9:01 PM
I can't work without visible whitespace. Helps both with sensitive languages and coding style compliance.
 
9:23 PM
@DeadMG: I don't understand the room title
 
He might be referring to the quote from Stepanov on OO and some of its problems:
While mating may not be very important for C++ programmers, equality is.
http://www.sgi.com/tech/stl/drdobbs-interview.html
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas The only thing I found was this YouTube comment: "When sex was free, cars looked good, and you could afford both", referring to this video:
In those days we listened to CCR on Radio Luxembourg (speling?), which I think transmitted half-illegaly from some ship somewhere outside GB.
Radio Luxembourg is a commercial broadcaster in many languages from the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. It is nowadays known in most non-English languages as RTL (for Radio Television Luxembourg). The English-language service of Radio Luxembourg began in 1933 as one of the earliest commercial radio stations broadcasting to Britain. It was an important forerunner of pirate radio and modern commercial radio in the United Kingdom. It was an effective way to advertise products by circumventing British legislation which until 1973 gave the BBC a monopoly of radio broadcasting on UK territory and ...
 
sbi
When your friends think you're a nerd, you can tell them they ain't seen nothing yet: rasteri.blogspot.com/2011/03/…
 
That's a nice song, it's been long since I last heard it
 
9:35 PM
Sorry, I remembered wrong about Radio Luxembourg; it was Radio Caroline that transmitted from a ship (but it was RL that we listened to)...
 
@sbi the best article I have seen with the video in it was titled "upgrading: from crap to crap"
 
0
Q: x64 msbuild fails to include stl

LKIMHi all, On our build system when we build 64 bit builds, the build is failing to find the stl libraries when they are included without the .h. So if I do #include <string>it fails, but if I do #include <string.h> it works. This fails on the commandline with both msbuild and vcbuild,...

anyone seen this before?
 
@jalf Are virtual functions high-level?
 
9:50 PM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Apropos apples and pears, here is what Bjarne Stroustrup once said about language feature adoption:
> "Hey, you can do it in C#, just take C#'s feature! That'll work just fine!" No... features don't graft well from one language to another.
> You can graft an apple branch to a pear tree, but people want us to graft an apple branch to a cactus (or the other way around), it just doesn't work.
:-)
 
But I want my apple to be able to defend them selves with sharp spikeyness >:
 
C++ really is like a cactus. Minimal resource usage, and its spikes hurt if you don't pay attention.
5
 
lol
 
@thecoshman Maybe you'd be better off with a "Porcupine" language? :)
Porcupines are rodents with a coat of sharp spines, or quills, that defend them from predators. They are indigenous to the Americas, southern Asia, and Africa. Porcupines are the third largest of the rodents, behind the capybara and the beaver. Most porcupines are about long, with an long tail. Weighing between , they are rounded, large and slow. Porcupines come in various shades of brown, grey, and the unusual white. Porcupines' spiny protection resembles that of the unrelated erinaceomorph hedgehogs and monotreme echidnas. The common porcupine is an herbivore. It eats leaves, herb...
 
@FredOverflow Carefully. Very carefully.
List of Radio Luxembourg audio streams he he. They even play Abba and Middle of the Road.
 
10:05 PM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas In the case, I'd recommend "We're not interested in mating mammals!"
Or maybe something else entirely.
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Where void pointers meet template metaprogramming
(emphasizing the broad spectrum from low-level to high-level)
 
10:21 PM
i'm not sure if this is soup or stew. i start with can of Norwegian sodd (soup with potatoes and carrots and meatballs and stuff), add 4 or 5 smoked sausages chopped to small pieces, and a very heavy dosage of oregano and course-ground black pepper
 
@AlfPSteinbach What ever your calling it, I want some!
 
And I just brushed my teeth :(
 
Though I would be inclined to call it stew.
@FredOverflow and?! Tasty soup-stew and brush them again
 
@thecoshman Can you add some Griffin to that? :)
Stewart Gilligan "Stewie" Griffin is a main character of the animated series Family Guy voiced by Seth MacFarlane. Once obsessed with world domination and matricide, Stewie is the youngest child of Peter and Lois Griffin. His older siblings are Chris and Meg. Stewie is considered to be the show's breakout character. Wizard magazine rated him the 95th greatest villain of all time. Role in Family Guy Stewie is a one-year-old who has a very sophisticated psyche. and has no idea how to use a toilet. MacFarlane has stated that Stewie is meant to represent the general helplessness of an infa...
 
@Alf You live in norway?
 
10:30 PM
Hm, wrong picture.
 
@FredOverflow I'm not sure what you mean... but I giggle non the less
 
Stew(ie)
 
ah, got ya!
 
Seen the latest episode with "Evil Stewie"? :)
 
Dam I have a hankering for some sort of offal right now... liver and/or kidney stewed or fired with onions... mmmm
not seen any of the more recent F.Guy
 
10:32 PM
They are in 16:9 now :)
Will C++0x be in 16:9? :)
 
@FredOverflow if it is, it better be (at least) 1080p and 9.2 soround sound with an ice cream, waffle and drinks bar
Dear god, am I pregnant? Going through so many cravings right now
 
I want lazy evaluation and procrastination semantics.
 
9.2, errors coming out from everywhere.
 
@thecoshman Gender?
 
Got to love those stereo bass errors
@FredOverflow Male...
 
10:36 PM
@thecoshman I'm pretty sure boys don't get pregnant.
Unless...
 
Either way my mind is racing with edible wants
dam it... now I want spicy sauce too
 
11:03 PM
I guess it would to awkward to get some of this soup-stew then, shame
 
perhaps it's just chow?
 
Right, its time for to bid you, and your tasty soup-stews, good night; Off I go to snuggle with a good nerdy book
nope, official name is soup-stew :P
night
 
00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

« first day (142 days earlier)      last day (4809 days later) »