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12:00 AM
@AlfPSteinbach All existence is in the form of an idea. When the idea is placed in an environment, it becomes active, but only because of the environment reacting to the 'entity'. Similar to a virus. In other words, every entity is a simulation of real actions in the physical world. Thus, consciousness is born from the firing of neurons. The only possible plane of existence beyond that, would be a hypothetical spiritual one.
 
@Xaade I'm pretty sure some things physically exist too.
 
Consciousness is another form of meta-data.
 
at the grand level we have physical existence, which existence within our universe and is governed by conservation of mass/energy, and we have the existence of ideas, where our universe is one such
 
Conversation is a bitch.
 
the simple grand level existence insight is simply this: anything that can exist, does exist, in the sense of existence as idea. our universe is one example.
 
12:02 AM
@MooingDuck I was talking about non-physical existence. Physical existence is assumed to have already been established. Sorry for not noting that.
 
That sounds like rule 34.
2
 
i think a good way to understand this is to think of a computer simulation of a part of the universe
 
why are starred posts on the right different colors? Are some dark ones stickied?
 
still on the grand level though, not getting down to the nitty-gritty of memory
 
@MooingDuck The dark one is bold text.
 
12:04 AM
u can envision people living in the simulation, and the simulation as a sequence of frames
 
@RMartinhoFernandes they bolded the star too? That's wierd.
 
then u can store it on a card
and you can run it backwards, say
or with the frames in random order
 
@MooingDuck Ah, no, the stars of the two top ones are different because they are pinned indeed.
 
@AlfPSteinbach oh man, a quine universe...
 
thinking about that yields some insights about physical existence versus existence of idea
i mean surely the simulated people do not experience anything when you just display frames of the simulation, in random order
or for that matter in sequential order :-)
 
12:06 AM
@AlfPSteinbach Or maybe they do! You're just trying to convince yourself you're not hurting them!
 
ha!
actually John Searle used the frame sequence argument to demonstrate that conscience is impossible
for surely nothing happens while a frame is displayed
 
And google+ becomes another facebook plus.google.com/u/0/games
 
google+ doesn't yet have timeline, does it?
 
@AlfPSteinbach consciousness? you mean?
@AlfPSteinbach I can't find how to send ONE person a message.
 
12:09 AM
Someone added me, but added the wrong me..... apparently there's another me out there, with the same name, but in a different place. How I got to be in two places at once is irrelevant.
 
@Xaade well just forget it. John Searle has severe problems with understanding what an evolving process is, like in the Chinese Room experiment. that's one reason I don't like philosophy, it's just word games
 
@Xaade Like Murphy's Law, which wasn't actually invented by Murphy at all, but rather by a guy of the same name.
 
The Chinese room is a thought experiment presented by John Searle. Suppose that there is a program that gives a computer the ability to carry on an intelligent conversation in written Chinese. If we give the program to an English speaker and they execute the instructions of the program by hand, then, in theory, the English speaker would also be able to carry on a conversation in written Chinese. However the English speaker would not be able to understand the conversation. Similarly, Searle concludes, a computer executing the program would not understand the conversation either. The experim...
 
@KerrekSB I wanted to tell her, that's it's the wrong person with the same name. But I can't message her.....
@AlfPSteinbach I'm sorry, the two words mean really really different things. I don't want to forget it, because I'm curious.
Conscience is what gives you morals. Consciousness is the concept of experiencing reality.
@AlfPSteinbach Problem is that any argument against an AI saying you can do X to a machine... we're learning, you can also do to a human. "A machine is not intelligent because you can pause it, so it cannot be conscious." You can pause a human, it's called stasis.
Any physical explanation of consciousness will result in the discovery that there isn't such a thing as consciousness. So consciousness must be meta-physical in nature.
 
well i think u can make a good argument that it's a dynamic process
 
cpx
12:17 AM
Hmm.
 
it's like, when the dynamic process in your brain stops, you're dead
still a brain there but it doesn't do anything coherent
 
You don't need to be dead for that.
 
@AlfPSteinbach You look and sound like a smart guy, but it really drives me nuts that you aren't capitalizing your sentences. Which is ironic, because I forget like half the time.
 
it's just easier to type without having to place the fingers on the shift keys
which reminds me, the foot pedal Shift and Alt and Ctrl thing
why did it not become popular?
there was also the in-your-pocket typing thing with 5 buttons that you grasped and pressed in combinations
 
@AlfPSteinbach I can't reach them with my pinkie very easy
 
12:22 AM
i can understand why that did not catch on, people fumbling in their trouser pockets all the time
 
@AlfPSteinbach that'd be harder to learn I think.
 
@KerrekSB But what was his name called?
 
@AlfPSteinbach also, that's only 32 combinations. What of the other 73 keys?
 
well you can use sequences
 
12:23 AM
@AlfPSteinbach I don't wonder why that never caught on then.
 
and that TC2 algorithm (or whatever it's called)
 
@sehe Err.....
 
@KerrekSB: from Alice In Wonderland (the White Knight, "The Name Of The Song")
 
so if I have a template class specialization any_iterator<bidirectional_iterator_tag, ...> and give it a member function any_iterator& operator=(const any_iterator& rhs), the type of the RHS uses the same template parameters as the class being defined right? Or should I explicitly write out all the template params?
 
12:25 AM
huh
 
Did you edit your question just to make my answer ambiguous?
You don't need to explicitly write out the arguments.
 
I have template<class iterator> any_iterator& operator=(const iterator& rhs) and also any_iterator& operator=(const any_iterator& rhs) and it's matching the template.... oh. uh oh.
Hrm... I didn't think my design through
my iterators are nesting. Still.
std::enable_if to save the day
 
should it be possible to initialize a std::unique_ptr< T const* const [] > with a T**?
 
Think not.
 
well i think it should, but visual c++ 10.0 doesn't think so
so instead of giving it directly foo() (which produces a T**) i had to do like
 
12:31 AM
Aren't there some nasties that justify not being able to convert T** to T const**?
 
T const* const* bar() { return foo(); }
@RMartinhoFernandes yes, but that's not the situation here.
Then I used bar() as constructor argument for unique_ptr
 
Seems to me like it is. The unique_ptr needs to convert the T** you feed it to a T const* const* internally.
 
Just to avoid the complex-looking inline const_cast
 
Oh wait, that's legal.
 
Just to make this concrete, the foo function was Windows API CommandLineToArgvW, which produces wchar_t**
And so the bar wrapper converted that implicitly to wchar_t const* const*, which worked as constructor argument
 
12:35 AM
That function allocates with new[]? Or are you specifying a deleter?
 
But plugging the CommandLineToArgvW call directly in as argument, picks up a private templated constructor.
It allocates with LocalAlloc, so the deleter uses LocalFree
But the deleter is only a template argument, not an actual run time argument
 
all your mothers at once
 
        explicit CommandLineArgs( wstring const& commandLine = GetCommandLine() )
        {
            typedef unique_ptr< wchar_t const* const [], DeleterUsingLocalFree > ArrayPtr;
            typedef ArrayPtr::pointer RawArrayPtr;

            int         n;
            ArrayPtr    a( parsed( commandLine.c_str(), n ) );
            hopefully( a != 0 )
                || throwX( "CommandLineArgs::<init>: CommandLineToArgvW failed" );
            arguments_.resize( n );
            for( int i = 0;  i < n;  ++i ) { arguments_[i] = a[i]; }
 
If it's not default constructible, you need to pass it to the unique_ptr constructor.
 
where
        static wchar_t const* const* parsed( wchar_t const* const commandLine, int& n )
        {
            return ::CommandLineToArgvW( commandLine, &n );
        }
I think it should work to use CommandLineToArgvW directly in the constructor call, instead of adding constness via parsed function
I mean it feels that way, like it should be possible. :-)
 
12:40 AM
Yeah, I don't see why not.
I'm assuming DeleterUsingLocalFree is the type of a function object, and not a function pointer, correct?
 
func(std::enable_if<true, int> a); should give me a warning that I forgot to type ::type on the end :/
 
Lemme set up a test with GCC.
 
Does anything in the C++ Standard Library actually have a forward iterator? And why doesn't the C++ Standard Library have a TLA?
 
12:43 AM
Lots of iterators are forward iterators.
But if you're looking for one that is a forward iterator but not a bidirectional iterator: forward_list<T>::iterator.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes: Do you have an example? I can think of iterators of every other category, just not that one...
Oh right, I forgot we have forward_list now. For some reason
 
@MooingDuck It does- STL
 
Don't let Tomalak hear you!
 
meh
 
@DeadMG: Too many people nitpick over that
 
12:46 AM
there's virtually no useful Standard library that isn't the STL
although in C++11 that's a bit different I guess
 
Ah, I was about to prove you wrong.
 
let me guess, the concurrency or smart pointer libraries?
 
user406009
What about tr1? That's a three letter acronym for much of the C++ standard library.
 
doesn't cover many of the most useful core classes like vector
by the way
for DeadMG's First Memory Allocator, is it going to be OK just to fall back to HeapAlloc/HeapFree?
 
12:50 AM
Dunno about all the Windows memory allocation stuffs.
 
@DeadMG most seem to use that as a fallback
 
well, in theory, my language permits vastly more efficient allocators
but I don't plan to be the one who has to write them :D
LLVM comes with a malloc implementation, I think
 
typename std::enable_if<std::is_same<char, typename std::iterator_traits<char*>::value_type>::value, char*>::type should result in a char* right? It isn't SFINAE'ing out on my is it?
 
@Alf: ideone.com/aCfwv GCC doesn't seem to like it either. Maybe you should post a question.
 
hm, i probably need to sleep on it
i'm thinking the reason why it does not work is that the logic for refusing pointer to Derived class, fouls things up
 
12:54 AM
@MooingDuck I'm pretty sure it should, but I'm not sure if it's Definedâ„¢ to work
 
that when that is done via a private templated constructor, it should have some enable_if on it
but thanks anyway
 
@MooingDuck No, that's not valid. You cannot use typename without dependent names :P
 
@RMartinhoFernandes in my case char and char* are both template types: valuetype and iterator respectively
 
Me, I don't use typename much anymore. I alias every one of those things. Mwhahaha.
@MooingDuck Then, it should work.
 
`#define iterparam typename std::enable_if<std::is_same<valuetype, typename std::iterator_traits<iterator>::value_type>::value, iterator>::type`

`template<class iterator> any_iterator(const iterparam& rhs);`
 
12:56 AM
Mixing const with macros is dangerous.
typedef it.
 
can you alias a function template param? I'll look into template aliases again
 
Xeo
template<class It>
using iterparam = typename std::enable_if<std::is_same<valuetype, typename std::iterator_traits<It>::value_type>::value, It>::type;
 
Xeo
That aside, your function won't work. iterator is non-deducible in this constructor, you won't ever be able to call it
 
@Xeo sweet deal, I learned something
 
12:58 AM
Do your SFINAE in template parameters as much as you can.
 
@Xeo wait what? It's not deducible?
 
Xeo
template<class Iter>
using itertesttype = typename std::enable_if<std::is_same<valuetype,  typename std::iterator_traits<Iter>::value_type>::value>::type;

template<classs Iter>
any_iterator(Iter const& rhs, itertesttype* = 0);
@MooingDuck You got a typename xxx<T>::yyyy, non-deducible context.
What I just posted should work though
 
template<typename iterator, typename = SFINAE STUFF GOES HERE>
any_iterator(const iterator& rhs);
 
@Xeo right, that makes sense
 
Xeo
Oh, right, newstyle SFINAE
 
1:00 AM
I still fail at even the old SFINAE.
 
Xeo
Since it's not supported by MSVC yet I tend to forget it.
 
lol
@Xeo Oh, that sucks.
 
does MSVC10 accept template<class Iter> using itertesttype =...?
 
Xeo
no
No using aliases yet
 
Clang 3.0 or GCC 4.7.
 
1:02 AM
@Xeo sigh
 
cpx
Hm, ok, I had add -std=gnu++0x explicitly in other options under built options to make it compile C++11!
 
Xeo
MSVC10 has: lambdas, rvalue references, auto, decltype, trailing return type and I'm probably forgetting one thing.
 
Use -std=c++0x, not -std=gnu++0x.
 
@cpx why gnu and not just c++?
 
cpx
It didn't work with -std=c++0x at all.
 
1:03 AM
-std=c++11!
 
The latter enables crappy GCC extensions.
 
Xeo
@cpx Then you're using a non-standard extension it seems
 
@cpx Did you try adding it explicitly too?
@Pubby Only on 4.7.
 
cpx
> #error This file requires compiler and library support for the upcoming \
ISO C++ standard, C++0x. This support is currently experimental, and must be \
enabled with the -std=c++0x or -std=gnu++0x compiler options.
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Wait, you don't use Clang 3.1? :O
 
1:04 AM
"I was into endothermic reactions before they were cool"
 
cpx
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes
 
@Xeo Clang doesn't have initializer lists and some other feature I keep forgetting. It can't compile my code with it.
@cpx There's something broken somewhere then.
 
Xeo
initlist, constexpr, inheriting ctors
Oh, yeah, and user-defined literals
 
Lambdas!
I can live without UDLs.
 
Xeo
Oh, yeah...
> New wording for C++0x lambdas N2927 No
 
1:06 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Without?
 
cpx
I think it could be the IDE, I have updated to latest g++ 4.6.
 
Xeo
I always take that as "previous wording implemented, new wording not"
 
@cpx Did you try on the command-line?
 
hi im drunk
 
So you're me 22 hours in the future.
 
1:10 AM
lol
im at work
not buzzed ... drbunk
 
What could possibly go wrong.
 
@trinithis same here. My father in law is making cocktails
although I'm on xmas hols :)
 
Does MSVC10 hate SFINAE or is it time for me to go home?
 
I mean, its an office partay. C++ here mostly
 
@MooingDuck Yes.
 
1:12 AM
That sauidm I often use haskell for writing tools
 
@trinithis father in law is into C# mostly
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Show me your SFINAE
 
Why are you chatting here instead of partying? What kind of party is that?
 
Oh, I remembered why the logic test date is so weird, I don't have to go today. I can go to sleep, wee.
 
well im drunk
 
1:13 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Internet party!
 
heading to bars soon tho
 
@CatPlusPlus heh: error C2825: '_Iter': must be a class or namespace when followed by '::' / see reference to class template instantiation 'std::iterator_traits<_Iter>' being compiled / with [ _Iter=char *& ]
@Xeo I'll get it eventually. I just have an extra reference somehow
 
That coffee is so bad it's just bad.
 
lol
ideone.com/G0oQc Is this UB? I'm wondering if I can get away with using pointers to members in OpenGL instead of using the offsetof macro. It's ugly on the inside, but it'd look neat and clean on the outside :)
 
#define iterparam typename std::enable_if<std::is_same<valuetype, typename std::iterator_traits<iterator>::value_type>::value, char*>::type
template<class iterator> any_iterator(const iterator& rhs, iterparam=0) {}
 
Xeo
1:15 AM
multiline markdown 10 : 0 guys who can't read the newbie hints
 
something like that is traditionally how offsetof was implemented
 
@DeadMG You mean, with null pointers?
 
@Xeo I've read them three times, just forgot the multiline markdown
 
yes
 
With null pointers, I know it's UB. That's why I hacked the static buffer in. I lose compile-timeness, but I don't mind.
 
Xeo
1:16 AM
3
Q: Does the 'offsetof' macro from <stddef.h> invoke undefined behaviour?

XeoExample from MSVC's implementation: #define offsetof(s,m) \ (size_t)&reinterpret_cast<const volatile char&>((((s *)0)->m)) // ^^^^^^^^^^^ As can be seen, it dereferences a null pointer, which normally invokes undefined beha...

 
cpx
@RMartinhoFernandes It compiles through command g++ c:\source1.cpp -std=c++0x.
hmm
 
@Xeo Not the same thing!
I don't dereference any null pointer.
 
Xeo
Oh, right. Whatever
@Mooing, show me the entire ctor code on ideone or with a correctly formatted message
Also, the error
 
trying to find a place to put my extensions for things like calling convention
it's un-good
 
<misc.hpp>!
 
1:19 AM
lol
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes <miscutils.hpp> // for all those utils you don't know where to put!
 
no, I meant syntactically
not much space for a __stdcall in there
 
cpx
Also with g++ c:\source1.cpp -std=gnu++0x
I think i'm fine with -std=gnu++0x but something is broken :/
 
@DeadMG Ahh..
@cpx At least make sure to turn on -Wall -Wextra -pedantic.
@DeadMG Can't you just add a generic extended attribute syntax like C++?
 
1:21 AM
I already have a system for attributes
but it's programmatic, not declarative
 
cpx
I may want to add them explicitly too, seems like can't trust the IDE anymore :s
 
@cpx There's an option somewhere to make it show the full command-line it uses. You could try that to find out what's going on.
Ok, no one showed any reasonable objection to my offset_of thingy. I'm committing it. Mwhahahah.
 
I need to commit my code back to bitbucket
 
@cpx In the global compiler settings, "Other settings", there's a dropdown labeled "Compiler logging". Set that to full command-line.
 
also, you can only overload =, <<, and <<=
oops
 
1:26 AM
Why?
You forgot to add syntax for the others?
 
because they're the only ones I added to make my tiny test case compile :P
 
@Xeo and every single warning/error I have is in std::iterator_traits. Makes debugging slightly tricky
 
@DeadMG You need a generator for your input to the parser generator!
 
I've noticed
it's actually hilarious how terrible the syntax is for input to a parser generator
 
1:27 AM
And then you get a compiler compiler compiler.
 
@DeadMG is your language a C++ variant? Or is it more distinct?
 
more distinct
 
You should set up a FAQ somewhere on the interwebz.
 
@DeadMG can we overload arbitrary symbols?
 
yeah
I'm going to set up a proper site, I think
 
1:28 AM
@DeadMG "Yeah" to "overload arbitrary symbols" or to "set up a FAQ"?
 
after all, people can't donate their moneyz to the drugs prostitutes living expenses if I don't have a site
 
@DeadMG foo operator §Ç() {return foo();}?
 
set up a faq
 
Ah.
@MooingDuck Ç is a letter.
 
that shit will get rejected by the lexer in no time
 
1:30 AM
So, no boobs operator in WideC :(
 
@RMartinhoFernandes so?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes that's an awesome idea: operator pushes(node) {}; a pushes b;
 
@MooingDuck That's not a boobs operator.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Oh, right, MSVC10 is a little buggy with templated ctors and copy ctors
 
1:32 AM
lol @ little.
 
@Xeo know a workaround?
@RMartinhoFernandes no, just the idea of word operators
 
There was a proposal to add something like that to boo.
Basically, a modified method call syntax.
 
Xeo
It somehow thinks that templated ctor of yours is the copy ctor, so it instantiates iterator with any_iterator<blabla, valuetype> and since you don't have a specialization of any_iterator<...> for std::iterator_traits, you get those strange errors
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it's easy to see why it didn't pass
 
Instead of a.b(c), you'd write a b c.
 
1:33 AM
haha
my grammar can hardly cope with what it's got now
 
don't be expecting anyshit like that anytime soon
 
@Xeo my full code does specialize std::iterator_traits. The error is that it couldn't find a specialization for char*&
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Yes, you have to SFINAE out the templated ctor if the template argument is the same as the class type. :>
 
@Xeo IOW, do the compiler's job yourself.
 
1:34 AM
@Xeo oh, I had that at one point...
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Sadly, yes.
I don't know if it's fixed in VC11
 
@Xeo ALright, I'll patch that up another day then. Night all
 
Xeo
Haaa.. right, since Windows restarted in the middle of the night thanks to those damn UPDATES, I have to start my vbox again -.-
 
Good night.
 
Xeo
g'night
 
1:36 AM
or, you know, in 10 minutes when MSVC9 finishes closing
Anyone know why MSVC9 takes forever to close a solution with 130 large projects?
 
Just shoot it. $ taskkill /im:devenv.exe /f.
 
Xeo
Great. Fucking Windows Updates Restart didn't even let vbox close properly.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes tempting
 
That's why I always set them to manual...
 
ok
I just added a function prolog, it's all good
 
Xeo
1:37 AM
@Mysticial I thought I had
 
I typically have like 30+ things open at once, and I'd be just as pissed if Windows decided to reboot on me.
 
GetStdHandle(StdHandle) { GetStdHandle.CallingConvention = Platform.Stdcall; } -> HANDLE;
 
Xeo
Now let's just hope that everything is well with my debian vbox -.-
 
@Xeo nice... Was that staged?
 
Xeo
Dunno, it was just posted in an IRC channel I'm in :D
BF3 IIRC
 
1:40 AM
yeah that's BF3
the new Back to Karkand expansion
 
Xeo
LOL
I just noticed I was downvoted on the offsetof macro question I posted earlier
WTF
 
-4
A: Why exclusively UNIX is taught at universities' operating systems courses?

DeadMGMy experience of university was that most of my professors hadn't checked back with current technology recently enough to notice that Windows had been invented.

:(
 
Xeo
Who of the guys in chat here downvoted that question?
 
@DeadMG Come on, you didn't think that was going to fly, did you?
 
1:41 AM
Wasn't me who downvoted...
 
eh
it's the truth
 
Xeo
I'm getting seriously pissed with all the random downvotes I recently receive without any comments
Same with this question
 
I don't downvote very often. And when I do, the post tends to get deleted...
 
you know
I actually need a different syntax for function declarations
my current half-hacked version won't work
 
cpx
@RMartinhoFernandes Got it working -std=c++0x. I can see what was going on.
 
1:43 AM
@DeadMG Either processors don't know that Windows exists, or they try to deny its existence...
 
cpx
I had -ansi command from global settings clashing with built options -.-
 
Ahh.
@Mysticial But Windows knows about processors.
@Xeo I did! You shouldn't have replied to me with a question that was irrelevant to the subject matter! Joke.
 
 
1 hour later…
Xeo
2:54 AM
So, my router decided to kill my connection for an whole hour.
 
It must be pissed at you.
What did you do to it?
 
Xeo
Nothing, it just lately decided to randomly do this
normally, it's just for 5-10 minutes
 
Happens to me too. It's frustrating.
 
Maybe you're not feeding it enough porn.
2
 
nomnomnomnom
 
2:58 AM
Maybe... Maybe...
 
Xeo
Also, the bandwidth seems really limited lately
I normally got 2 - 3 MB/s connection on torrents, lately I'm sitting around 800kb/s
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I just realized that I typo'ed that. :-)

professors
processors

Off by one letter - adjacent on the damn keyboard...
 
Xeo
3:27 AM
Whatever, I'm going to hit the sack. G'night
 
Night
 
anybody knows how to deal with stack overflow (apart from shifting every item)
 
You mean stack overflow as in pushing too many items into a fixed-size stack?
 
well it is a Actions (like placedWire, placedIC, placedLED) stack for a gui, with which i wan't to implement Undo and Redo. So say its size is 100, what do i do after 100 actions?
 
1) start dropping the older actions or 2) use a resizable buffer.
 
3:42 AM
i don't want a resizable buffer. 100 actions are quite enough
 
You shouldn't be using a stack though. You should be using a circular buffer.
 
and for dropping after 100 actions i guess i need to shift
 
That way you can just push new items into it and the old ones get dropped automatically.
 
yeah right, circular queue! that would work!
i can't believe i didn't think about circular queue. i was thinking of stack and simple queue only
what are your opinion on wxWidgets, (or haven't heard it?!)
 
Never used it.
 
3:48 AM
haha i thought so
any other gui framework then
 
I never wrote a GUI in C++ :(
 
oh...
its my first proper GUI btw
have you used surceforge or github
 
I have used GitHub and BitBucket.
 
ok so if i have created a project on sourceforge, how can i use github?
because i am advised to use github from the start (my gui is in initial stages)
 
I don't see how that would make a big difference. You created a git repository or an svn repository on sourceforge?
 
3:55 AM
git
i am new to both git and svn
don't know much, but soon i may commit (if that is what it is called)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Just wondering - which of them would you prefer?
 
@VinayakGarg Then it should be relatively simple to move. If you create a project on GitHub, the empty project page shows how to import an existing repository.
@Ozbekov I prefer BitBucket because it supports both mercurial and git, and allows for private repos for free.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Fair enough. Me too, I'm just gathering some opinion as to why people like Github so much.
 
ahem.. i have heard more (10x) about github
 

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