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12:00 AM
damn no copy of n3290 to hand
 
Well, I have one, but I'm sick and not in the mood to go chasing through it :)
 
Xeo
Oooh, repcap reset. ♪
 
YO WTF, THAT'S NOT FAIR
aliens that don't die to my ray gun! :(
 
in Commander Keen
 
12:06 AM
@Kerrek What's "[T]emplate specializations"? I mean, why the [T]?.
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Was lowercase in original text, now uppercase
 
Oh, he's quoting. Didn't notice that.
 
Xeo
> Quoting loosely from the standard:
Damn. 5 mins ago I had 10 breadsticks. Now I have none.
 
@Xeo That wasn't there!
Damn ninja edits.
 
Xeo
Omg
Question: Are [ Note: ... - end note ]'s normative text in the standard?
 
12:11 AM
ok
that was briefly fun, but it's a really irritating game
 
@Xeo I got a bit confused between putting quotation marks around stuff and not doing so... oh well
 
lol
Hmm, maybe James McNellis is right.
 
@Xeo No.
 
Xeo
Hm
Okay, next question.. how can I open the same pdf twice with adobe reader? -.-
 
Ugh, Adobe Reader.
 
Xeo
12:15 AM
Okay, found it. "Window -> New Window"
that was actually pretty easy
 
Totally not Adobe-like.
 
@KerrekSB Yep I recall that too. I think it says you can only use it to specialize templates meant for speciailization, basically. I think it is mentioned in relation to std::swap (and perhaps std::hash)
 
@sehe Yes, good point
 
@RMartinhoFernandes not on reference_wrapper<T>
 
Why not?
What's special about reference_wrapper?
 
Xeo
12:18 AM
I think partial specializations are still prohibited in std. Atleast they were in C++03 IIRC
 
@Xeo: wouldn't that be because of iffy compilers? Iffy compilers implementing C++11. That would be great fun
 
@Xeo Really? Then how would you add a hasher for tuples and pairs?
That would suck
 
Did you defined reference_wrapper?
 
Xeo
@KerrekSB You don't.. ? :P
 
@Xeo hug?
 
12:20 AM
Oh, you can only specialize for user-defined types? That actually makes some sense.
 
So by argument-from-disgust, I hereby declare partial specializations as "alright".
 
I guess you could turn the standard library into a pretzel.
 
Compilers don't care.
Har har.
 
Xeo
I'd search the standard if I weren't looking for the normative text on why that reference_wrapper thing won't work :)
 
@CatPlusPlus I know.
 
Xeo
12:21 AM
But I think I actually found it
 
That's actually an FPA. I would hate to have to retract that.
 
@KerrekSB you don't need to AFAICT. Also, if you did, it would break the semantics of a tuple: which would be a straight-up combination of the elements. It should relay directly to those hash<> impls and only to those
 
@sehe Yes, that's what I mean
By virtue of hash_combine of course
 
@RMartinhoFernandes If people were to specialise based on type they do not "own", there would be not guarantee of uniqueness.
 
Making composites of hashables hashable.
 
12:22 AM
@KerrekSB Mmmm. Perhaps I'm spoiled by using boost too much. I'm not even aware if c++11 doesn't specialize hash for tuples
 
I'm evil overlord of my program and I own everything in it!
 
@Xeo which reference_wrapper thing?
 
@sehe C++11 is missing hash_combine, and everything derived from it
Hence the FPA
 
The behavior of a C++ program is undefined if it adds declarations or definitions to namespace std or to a
namespace within namespace std unless otherwise specified. A program may add a template specialization
for any standard library template to namespace std only if the declaration depends on a user-defined type
and the specialization meets the standard library requirements for the original template and is not explicitly
prohibited.179
§ 17.6.4.2.1
 
Ah, so namespace std { template <> struct vector<foo> { vector() { cout << "Fuck off.\n"; } }; } is not valid.
 
Xeo
12:24 AM
@curiousguy The one why template parameter can't be deduced for operator< e.g. when using reference_wrapper
 
@sehe actually, there is a problem when you customise library code.
 
The behavior of a C++ program is undefined if it declares
— an explicit specialization of any member function of a standard library class template, or
— an explicit specialization of any member function template of a standard library class or class template,
or
— an explicit or partial specialization of any member class template of a standard library class or class
template.
A program may explicitly instantiate a template defined in the standard library only if the declaration
depends on the name of a user-defined type and the instantiation meets the standard library requirements
 
@sehe How do you know if other library code can call your code?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No, because cout is already in the same namespace.
 
If it can, do you in which context you code can be called? etc.
 
12:25 AM
@sehe Ooh, can I paste that?
 
@KerrekSB No, it wasn't. Now it is.
 
@KerrekSB To where?
 
Super Meat Boy is a bit annoying as a game, but has neat soundtrack.
 
@sehe Whither? To my answer.
 
12:26 AM
@KerrekSB Go right ahead.
I'm on a SO break - kind of :)
 
@sehe My condolences
 
I try to be on a SO break for months.
 
@sehe "user-defined type" now that I think about it, what is a user-defined type?
 
Xeo
@curiousguy You got the wrong quotes.
 
I think I knew the intent, but...
 
12:27 AM
Isn't std::vector<int> a user-defined type?
 
Xeo
They don't answer the question
 
@curiousguy: One that the user defined?
That's plenty clear for my taste. One that the standard didn't define, then?
 
You don't define vector<int>, though, compiler does.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes did this paragraph change?
@sehe is std::string user defined?
 
@curiousguy: Do you think so? Of course not, the standard specifies it and the standard library declares and defines it. End of story
 
12:29 AM
@Xeo really?
 
@curiousguy The grey area would be BOOST_STRONG_TYPEDEF(std::string, mystringnow)
 
@sehe That doesn't actually rule out partial specialization of class templates, does it?
 
Technically, things are clear there too: mystringnow is user defined and can be specialized for
 
@sehe I don't think, I am sure.
 
12:31 AM
@sehe the standard uses "user-defined types" several times as the complement of "fundamental types".
 
Ooh, another Enlightened.
 
std::string is not a fundamental type.
 
I view "user" as typical language user, and standard library is language implementer area.
 
Xeo
4
A: Why can template instances not be deduced in `std::reference_wrapper`s?

XeoEdit: Moved my guesswork to the bottom, here comes the normative text why this won't work. TL;DR version: No conversions allowed if the function parameter contains a deduced template parameter. §14.8.3 [temp.over] p1 [...] When a call to that name is written (explicitly, or implicitly...

 
user means not a language primitive.
 
Xeo
12:32 AM
Really. See the edit at the top.
 
Anything in std:: is "user", sorry.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Thanks I see what you mean
 
I don't know if the standard uses the term consistently.
 
It looks like it might.
Good call on the user defined thing. I'm having to call it a day. Still recovering from sickness
Cheers all, keep up the good work :)
 
"A user specialization of allocator_traits may provide different defaults" : clearly here user = you or me, not implementer
 
Xeo
12:38 AM
2
Q: Find all members of all classes/structs N bytes offset from the start of the class/struct?

GlaielGamerOk this is kind of a complicated problem, I've been trying to track down a bug in a fairly large codebase for the past 4 months, that only happens on a platform where valgrind isn't available. What's happening is that is a single byte, 0x01, is getting written in a weird spot (random when it ha...

 
I have a terrible headache. I always thought I was coldproof. This sucks.
 
Clearly, you need to update your AV more often.
 
@KerrekSB No.
@RMartinhoFernandes "I have a terrible headache." how do you know it isn't the C++?
 
Xeo
12:54 AM
> "it's the quote right below in my answer." I don't think so. – curiousguy 7 mins ago
@curiousguy mind elaborating? ...
 
If you have a headache with a cold and when thinking about C++, maybe it's not the cold... ;)
 
Xeo
I meant the comment
 
@Xeo re: [temp.arg.explicit] ?
 
Xeo
3 mins ago, by Xeo
> "it's the quote right below in my answer." I don't think so. – curiousguy 7 mins ago
 
See my first comment.
Explicit template argument specification [temp.arg.explicit] "Template arguments can be specified when referring to a function template specialization by qualifying the function template name with the list of template-arguments" Not the case here.
I read the standard as saying the whole section applies to function<Arg>(arg)
It is called [temp.arg.explicit] for a reason.
To me the section is not defining fun(arg), only fun<something>(arg)
Thus it is not applicable here.
 
Xeo
1:01 AM
Sometimes it's a bit abstruse why a specific text is placed in a certain paragraph, but in this case it doesn't matter. It clearly speaks about non-deduced arguments and deduced arguments, and it's also referenced from [temp.deduct.call].
 
All function calls but one in code examples have explicit template args.
@Xeo "It clearly speaks about non-deduced arguments and deduced arguments" yes, but I interpreted that as applying only to functions template called with explicit template arguments.
 
Xeo
@curiousguy That wouldn't make sense, explicitly specified template parameters are never deduced. They even say that in the same quote.
 
@Xeo I did not say that explicitly specified template parameters are deduced!
However I agree with you that the whole section is not 100 % about the f<> syntax.
"A trailing template parameter pack (14.5.3) not otherwise deduced will be deduced to an empty sequence of template arguments. If all of the template arguments can be deduced, they may all be omitted; in this case, the empty template argument list <> itself may also be omitted."
Explicitly specifying template arguments does not mean template deduction is turned off!
One example in this section is: f<int>(5.6)
where f is : template<class X, class Y> X f(Y);
 
Well, well.
 
1:14 AM
> I would like word of mouth referrals, as opposed to online reviews which could be biased.
I'll never understand meatbags.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Hey, don't lump me in the same pile as that guy.
 
And I got to use this:
 
@Xeo "if the parameter type contains no template-parameters that participate in template argument deduction." not the case here, so quote proves nothing. I am not even sure that the quoted text serves a purpose in the standard. IMO it should be deleted.
 
But that's a paradox!
Also, why people care about OOP theory so much.
 
1:23 AM
@CatPlusPlus Because all the cool languages are OO
 
Haskell isn't.
WHAT NOW.
 
Zing!
Arrgh. :abbreviate firend friend
 
Haskell isn't cool.
2
 
@CatPlusPlus POO theory? There is such a thing?
 
Rule 34.
 
1:25 AM
@EtiennedeMartel Yo momma isn't cool.
You wouldn't know cool if it was breathing down your neck.
@CatPlusPlus What?
 
Nothing.
 
I have an idea for a math-themed restaurant. The signature dish would be Haskell Curry and we would server 𝛑 for dessert.
 
Where did you find that π?
 
at yo momma's house
U+1D6D1 MATHEMATICAL BOLD SMALL PI
 
Xeo
> By your reading of the quoted standard clause, this clause is wrong. By my reading, this clause is just useless. – curiousguy 1 min ago.
I'm giving up, anyone willing to take over?
Also, where did @KerrekSB disappear to?
 
1:29 AM
Yo momma's house.
 
some of the many faces of pi (in my charmap): 𝜋𝛱𝛡𝛑𝚷ℿℼᴨϖπΠⲡⲠ𝝕
 
@Xeo Am I needed? I want to depart.
 
Xeo
@KerrekSB Yes, please save me. :(
 
There are some weird pis there.
A few of them look like lowercase omegas.
 
Sometimes I think Kerrek is a time traveler from the distant past
they do, but I was just searching my charmap for pi, take it up with that thing
 
1:33 AM
I travelled here from 1987.
 
@Xeo Hehe... my therapist told me I need to "pick my battles", alas.
 
Xeo
;_;
 
See? Who says "alas"?
 
What does it mean?
 
I think the SB stands for "Super Badass"
 
1:34 AM
lol
 
alack and alas
what woebegotten dictionary hath you?
 
Will you explain what "alas" means?
I don't feel like googling it.
 
GTS
 
Xeo
"sadly", "unfortunately", "regrettably"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I hope you at least know what that means
 
1:37 AM
Nice, headache is fading away.
 
you're welcome
My wife brought home cake. Sweet.
 
OK, enough SO. I'll put in ten more minutes of Super Melee before bed.
 
Xeo
Great. My answer even got a downvote now. -.-
 
@Xeo Sorry about that. I'm sure you'll cap before long...
 
Xeo
Fuck that, I'm going to bed for today. G'night everyone.
 
1:48 AM
Is it me, or does anyone else like refactoring?
I feel like I love refactoring code.
 
2:24 AM
2
Q: "Unable to find a version of runtime to run this application" for 32bit app on 64bit Windows

HaraldI am developing a 32bit WinForm app (target: .NET 3.5). My client insists the app be installed into "Windows\System32\clientname" folder and autostarts on startup. Also, the app must be 32bit, so I can't use "Any CPU". I am developing under Win7 x64 with VS2010 and all versions of .NET are insta...

Clients...
 
 
4 hours later…
cpx
5:55 AM
How do I prove int f() { return 42; } the value return by f is neither const or non-const?
I can't assign to function call..
 
What are you trying to do, can you elaborate a bit?
@cpx cpx?
 
cpx
nothing useful :s I was just wondering if its true that built in types have neither const or non-const rvalues.
 
how on earth can it neither be const or non-const?
do you want to check if its either or?
 
6:10 AM
Argh, headache.
 
@cpx Functions shouldn't be constant. How can the compiler know if the return value changes at runtime or not?
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Thanks.
 
cpx
@RMartinhoFernandes: hmm what does it do? I cannot compile it on g++ 4.5.1 with c++0x enabled.
 
@cpx ideone is running g++ 4.5.1, and it compiles fine there.
What error are you getting?
Regarding what it does... nothing. It fails compilation if the type of f() is const.
It's asserting that the type of f() is not const.
 
cpx
6:41 AM
> #error This file requires compiler and library support for the upcoming ISO C++ standard, C++0x. This support is currently experimental, and must be enabled with the -std=c++0x or -std=gnu++0x compiler options.
 
Are you sure you have C++0x enabled?
-std=c++0x?
 
cpx
I don't know what else to do, i already have c++0x checked in setting.
 
What IDE are you using?
 
cpx
> Have g++ follow the coming c++0x ISO C++ language standard [-std=c++0x]
in Code::blocks
 
Did you set that in the project specific options (right-click > Build Options), or in the global options (Settings > Compiler and debugger)?
 
cpx
6:46 AM
Setting > Compiler and debugger, should i change it in build options?
 
In the project specific build options there's a "Policy" dropdown. What's the value in it?
 
cpx
Hmm, didn't work :/
 
That's weird.
 
@StackedCrooked 9gag.com/gag/1066718 Seems like a good way to cancel print jobs, huh?
 
@Ozbekov Yep :D
Saw that too yesterday.
Perhaps it's easier to explain functional programming by calling it "function oriented programming".
 
cpx
7:00 AM
facepalm
It's g++ 4.4.1
I didn't notice the version when the last I'd installed it.
 
So you have the strategy pattern, but instead of putting the strategy in an object you just pass it as a function.
 
You only put strategies in objects in crappy languages that can't handle functions.
Which is pretty much just Java.
 
7:16 AM
@keithlayne easiest way to find unicode code point is to insert symbol in Word, then keypress [Alt X] :-) works to some extent also in standard windows accessory "write" (a.k.a. WordPad).
 
7:32 AM
25
Q: non-class rvalues always have cv-unqualified types

FredOverflow§3.10 section 9 says "non-class rvalues always have cv-unqualified types". That made me wonder... int foo() { return 5; } const int bar() { return 5; } void pass_int(int&& i) { std::cout << "rvalue\n"; } void pass_int(const int&& i) { std::cout << "...

That is, there are no scalar const rvalues.
@DeadMG Sometimes I wish my room had garbage collection running in the background.
Do we have a good FAQ on C++ references? I'm so tired of people thinking C++ references are just like Java references. I don't want to see abominations such as T& r = *(new T); anymore :(
 
What? Where did you see that? Ugh.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Have you really never seen that? :)
 
No.
That's incredibly twisted.
Oh, wait, is that where those legends about delete &r; come from?
 
exactly
 
cpx
@FredOverflow I shall test on my new g++ 4.6.1 compiler!
 
7:46 AM
Also, "how do I make my reference refer to something else?" - "You can't." - "What do you mean, it's possible in Java, so how do I do it in C++?" - "You want a pointer." - "No, I don't like pointers, I want a reference because I prefer . over ->. So how do I do it?"
@cpx This issue seems to be fixed in g++ 4.5.0
 
@Fred: no, C++11 does not allow partial function template specialization.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Why not? Because we already have overloading?
 
Hmm. Herb Sutter wrote something about that.
 
I just find it so odd that we can fully specialize function templates, but not partially.
Then again, C++ tends to be an odd language...
> There is some discussion going on within the committee about potentially allowing function template partial specialization in the next version of the C++ standard, whose work is just getting under way.
I love reading old articles, they're like a time machine :)
 
9 hours ago, by keith.layne
Angry birds is actually a simulation of an Iranian attack on the US.
{| |} Karrar ( karrār, "striker", nickname of Ali, first Imam of Shi'a, It is the first long-range unmanned aerial drone manufactured in Iran. Iranian announcements about new advances in military technology cannot be independently verified. Unveiling The long range drone was unveiled one day after the activation of the nuclear reactor in Bushehr, on August 22, 2010. Television footage showed the president of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad applauding as a blue cloth was pulled back to reveal a short aircraft painted in military-green with the words Bomber jet on its side, images showing the ...
 
8:01 AM
repeat all the memes!
 
8:25 AM
@FredOverflow i once, in a flash, fully understood it. then it was gone. :-(
 
@AlfPSteinbach Were you high?
 
no, probably sleep-deprived or something maybe
 
8:47 AM
Morning
for a while there I thought I was the only one in the room, then it actually loaded :P
 
Hi
Does anyone know what the required steps are for having my own packages into an officiel Debian and Ubuntu repository ?
 
cpx
This one seems to be relevant to my question:
> if T is a non-class type that is cv-qualified, the cv-qualifiers are ignored
when determining the type of the resulting rvalue. ( 5.2.3/2)
 
Tin
@LucDanton, hi, are you still there? I was studying your suggestion (ideone.com/8R9u0#) and also some posts that I read, I came to the following solution => pastebin.com/jKp7t1aT What do you think about the ShapeContainer copy constructor for instance, and also the FooObj/FooRef classes? How would you define the FooRef copy cstr/assignment operator? If anybody has also a suggestion, pls feel free :-)
 
@ereOn not exactly a C++ question, but any way. You are going to just start making your own software and package it as a PPA if you are dedicated to maintaining it and it proves popular, Debian/Ubuntu (might) add it
 
cpx
Hm, how do you post a quote?
 
8:57 AM
@cpx 'like this'?
 
@thecoshman: You are right. This has nothing to do with C++. Sorry. I usually join this chat because C++ is my favorite language and I didn't really thought about the relevance of the question ^^ Thanks for your answer.
 
Prefix it with > .
 
cpx
> quote
 
But Markdown just gives up on multiline messages.
 
@ereOn hay, no worries, secretly, the C++ bit is just to scare noobs away
 
8:58 AM
Is it possible that a package that is not very well written ends up in those repositories ?
I wonder, because I just looked at the source code of SQLRelay
 
. testing chat workings...
. multi line?
 
And I really find it very badly written.
 
d'oh
 
And I wonder how it ended up maintained.
 
@ereOn Yes. Case in point: GCC. :)
 
9:00 AM
AFAIK... it is more down to how good the end product is, not the code for it
 
@thecoshman Yes, WordPress is a fine example... not-so-nice code, but great developer documentation, and good product.
 
cpx
int y = const int(); // invalid
const int(); // how is this valid?
 
. so... is this a quote...
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ
 
cpx
Probably VC++ bug? I haven't tested on g++ 4.6 yet
 
6 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Prefix it with > .
 
cpx
9:04 AM
> This is a quote
 
6 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Prefix it with > .
 
Isn't there a room for trying out chats...
 
cpx
> Sandbox!
@RMartinhoFernandes: should I append a dot to multiline quote?
 
Damn you Internets. Stop sending duplicate messages!
@cpx No, that's just a full stop to end the sentence :)
 
cpx
oh
 
9:08 AM
Sure, but since the product is a library, isn't a clean code design what makes the product good ?
 
Nothing works on multiline. Don't even bother trying. It's... by design :(
 
@ereOn functionality, robustness and a good API, more like. The internal code design is irrelevant to the user of the library
 
I agree. but in this case I was talking about the public interface.
Well, it doesn't matter much, was just a question that popped out of my mind yesterday and your answers make sense indeed.
 
@ereOn well, what you said was "clean code design". That doesn't sound like "the public interface" to me. ;)
 
Isn't the public interface a part of the code design ?
Perhaps my idea of what the "code design" is, is a bit off. I never read a formal definition.
 
9:11 AM
Are there programs that you would choose to do in C rather than C++? (assume no legacy code)
 
> oooh, you mean prefix with a chevron not a period
 
i'm getting very annoyed. when i double click on "Blue Öyster Cult" folder in Windows Explorer list view, then on the first click it hastily scrolls the window contents, so that the second click lands on "Lynyrd Skynyrd". does anyone know the ip address of the MS guy who did that particular piece of user sabotage?
ok, they're all PHB's. one cannot reasonably expect them to do rational things. it's useless to get annoyed. i know. but i get very annoyed anyway!
 
Tin
@AlfPSteinbach, what does PHB means?
 
The pointy-haired boss (often abbreviated to just PHB or "The Boss") is Dilbert's boss in the Dilbert comic strip. He is notable for his micromanagement, gross incompetence and unawareness of his surroundings, yet somehow retains power in the workplace. In the Dilbert TV series, in which he is voiced by comedian Larry Miller, the character is notably smarter (although still quite stupid and inept) and more openly corrupt. He is also parodied in Bee Movie as Dean Buzzwell, also voiced by Larry Miller. In Dilbert The PHB's real name is unknown in the comic, although in one episode of the...
 
@ereOn I don't think there is one. But I'd say "code design" sounds more like how the library is internally structured/designed. The public interface is just how the library is presented to the user, it doesn't say much about how it is designed
 
9:22 AM
@jalf: Fair point.
 
@AlfPSteinbach hehe, my Explorer is set to hide that folder ("Blue Öyster Cult") - or perhaps I have dragged it somewhere by accident. Must have been around 2005, last time I actually used windows.
 
youngsters...
 
Tin
@sehe, what OS do you use generally? Linux? OsX?
 
@AlfPSteinbach old farts ¬_¬
 
cpx
Even with g++ 4.6 I still can't do #include <type_traits> :(
3 hours ago, by cpx
> #error This file requires compiler and library support for the upcoming ISO C++ standard, C++0x. This support is currently experimental, and must be enabled with the -std=c++0x or -std=gnu++0x compiler options.
 
9:29 AM
hm i posted wrong song because when it wasn't on youtube the search came up with a different song instead. i'm getting ever more annoyed!
ok, the closest to BTO "life still goes on" seems to be Noah and the Whale "life goes on". which sounds like plagiarism of Kinks' "Lola". which is not a song about young woman, as one might think, but about a transvestite. it's quite catchy though. for those young folks here who have not heard or (or like "join the new conservatives"):
 
@Tin : Linux - in case it matters :) I'm an omnivore. I program on windows for a living, so I don't spit on it. Windows is quite good. Usually. But not nice enough to voluntarily use it at home
 
@cpx why don't you use -std=c++0x?
 
@AlfPSteinbach exactly
 
9:46 AM
@sehe well the baseline standard for the compiler is c++98/03. that won't change until they've implemented most of C++11. which will take some time.
 
@AlfPSteinbach yeah - you're not tellng me anything new. However, without further context, the complaint Even with g++ 4.6 I still can't do #include <type_traits> :( just begs the response RTFM
 
@AlfPSteinbach well... the spec has been worked on for a long time. The features that made it into the final spec can't be that different from the working version
 
Tin
@sehe, thanks. I was just curious about what OS does more experienced C++ developers use ;-)
 
cpx
> Have g++ follow the coming c++0x ISO C++ language standard [-std=c++0x]
I already have it checked it in built options and compiler and debugger in code::blocks. :s
 
@thecoshman but GCC needs to come (reasonably) close to implementing the final spec correctly before they're going to make that the default mode.
 
Tin
9:53 AM
@sehe, in my case, I like Windows especially because of the MSVC debugger, otherwise, I'll be using Linux (ubuntu) all the time
 
How close an earlier draft version was to the final spec is irrelevant, unless GCC implemented that draft exactly (and they didn't)
@Tin they use (1) the OS they feel most comfortable with, and (2) the OS they need their code to run on.
It's as useful a question as "what kind of car do C++ developers prefer"
 
@jalf my point was, they could have been working on implementing the features as the draft defines them so that when the finalised specification is released they would have a good baseline
 
No cars at all.
 
But yes, ofc you want to make sure that the default version you compile with is as stable as reasonably possible
 
@jalf it doesn't have to be useful to be curious :_)
 

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