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11:00 PM
and the summary basically seems to involve that the compiler doesn't statically analyze for dependencies
 
wow! that discussion on C# const-correctness got serious.
 
no, it got petty :(
 
seems odd to me that the compiler wouldn't automatically not repeatedly instantiate
 
sbi
@HJosef Hi!
 
man
I'm running out of money
after my rent goes out, and I pay for some food, I will have like
 
11:01 PM
@DeadMG then you're still better than me.
 
£30 left
 
sbi
@JamesMcNellis Ah, one of those. We all know those days.
 
@JamesMcNellis: Those days suck
 
meh, I'm late for beer-o-clock and there's 6" of snow on the ground to boot :(
 
@DeadMG on a related note, I too am available for work.
:)
 
sbi
11:02 PM
@DeadMG Yeah, it's like "one of those women". Those women... Oh. No, this isn't quite the same.
 
lol
well
it's not that I don't have any money
just that it all goes out and in badly
I go down to £30, then I get £1450
a tad disproportionate
 
my grandfather always said making money was the easy part – keeping it is hard
 
@FredNurk I have to disagree with your grandfather.
 
My father said the same thing about erections, but looking at my mother, I can understand.
 
and my ISP owes me £60
hahaha moo-juice
 
sbi
11:04 PM
@wilhelmtell Don't any of you whine about money. I have to pay for more kids than some of you (according to your whining, anyway) had girlfriends.
 
hey
 
@MooJuice you were just accepted to the club of politically incorrect personas.
 
it's not my fault that I don't date casually
 
@sbi it does explain the grumpiness!
 
That sounds like a good thing?
 
11:05 PM
@DeadMG actually, isn't that entirely your fault?
 
lol
 
@sbi i'll give you that. and yet, i still haven't yet completely figured out how to pay my next rent.
 
sbi
@FredNurk The grumpiness doesn't need any explanations. I'm old enough to have the right to be grumpy about anything, anytime I want to.
2
 
since when did you have to be old to be grumpy?
 
sbi
@wilhelmtell here, you advice your bank to transfer a certain amount from your account to the account of your landlord, whatever bank they use. Is it much harder where you live?
 
11:07 PM
it is if you don't have enough money :P
 
@DeadMG yes.
 
also
since you guys appear to be substantially more experienced than me
I wanted to ask
 
sbi
@DeadMG You have to be old enough to have the right to be grumpy. You can be grumpy even when young, but then you have no right to.
 
I hate my life and can't figure out why
it irritates me
 
This is C++ Chat not Oprah Chat ;-)
 
sbi
11:08 PM
@DeadMG I know. You're too young to value it!
 
rofl
 
@sbi it is a pity when a man with such explosive brain such as yours truly is idle. Someone out there is a million dollars poorer now because they haven't yet heard I'm available for work.
2
 
lol
 
DeadMG, simple answer, really.
@DeadMG, if what you are doing in your life is not satisfying you, it will simply irritate you. Find something you enjoy doing? :)
 
I spend all day doing that
that's why it irritates me, cause I lead a nice easy life full of doing whatever I like
 
11:10 PM
@wilhelmtell I feel pretty much the same.
 
@MooJuice we're not talking now about the "satisfying" and "enjoying" crap philosophies of life now. We're talking about paying the next rent.
 
sbi
@wilhelmtell Um, you lost me. Why is it a pity that my dangerously explosive brain is idle because you have a million dollars while unemployed? (Beer with me, I'm deep into my second bear tonight. A grizzly.)
 
@sbi hey now. "yours truly" means, oddly enough, me.
 
"deep in to my second bear"
That's a story I want to tell my children.
 
hey wilmhelmtell
 
sbi
11:10 PM
@DeadMG <serious> that can be a problem, you know. </serious>
 
are you proficient in C++?
I could pay you like
a penny an hour
to improve my render engine
 
@wilhelmtell, paying rent can be immensely satisfying :)
 
sbi
@wilhelmtell So you're done with your studies, and you're on the lookout for a job?
 
"beer with me"? "second bear"? oh my. amazing how much strength a man gets with a bottle of beer.
 
lol
 
sbi
11:12 PM
@wilhelmtell Two!
 
Kos
@DeadMG, I can.. if it would be enough for you if I tell you what I don't like in it :)
 
I can do that bit myself
 
I only have one bear in my office. He props up my feet.
 
@sbi haven't finished my studies yet. but on the lookout, yes.
 
sbi
@wilhelm Where are you living, anyway? Not, I suppose, in Switzerland, as your name would suggest, right?
 
Kos
11:12 PM
@DeadMG it's my dream to be paid for telling people why i think their code sucks.
3
 
hey, right now I'm coding 4 food here. Literally.
 
lol
 
@sbi Montreal.
 
well
I want to start testing my Direct3D rendered UI controls
of which I only have like, one, currently written
 
@Kos, I would love to see that business card - "Code-suck Measurer"
 
11:14 PM
but I realized that I have no art to display as a button texture
 
(though a few letters wrong, and you're dewmed)
 
Montreal isn't much of a city for hi-tec jobs imo. i'd be open to move, but i really love montreal. :-S
 
sbi
@wilhelmtell Never been there. (Toronto is the closest I have been.) So I can't help you there.
 
Kos
@Moo-, that's a lot of text for "consultant".
 
lol
 
Kos
11:15 PM
I just need to think of a business-speak-like buzzword for the "WTF/min" quantity.
ideas?
 
oh man
I remember that
that was hilarious
man
why do Microsoft's 64bit DirectX SDK tools suck so hard?
pix keeps crashing, corrupting files, and the tex tool won't even ope
n
 
@DeadMG you can simplify that question to "Why Microsoft suck so hard?".
 
@DeadMG, your answer lies somewhere between "64bit" and "SDK".
 
Kos
Sounds like they suck as hard as the Creative beta x64 drivers for SB Live.
 
Tomorrow is CUSEC though. So maybe I'll have some luck. :)
 
11:17 PM
hey
I like both Microsoft and Direct3D
 
@DeadMG sorry to hear that.
 
just their sdk tools quality is uh, in need of enhancement
why?
I think that MS have way more innovation and quality than Linux or Mac or OGL
 
sbi
@jweyrich We should ask @James about that, he is closest.
 
oh you know, I'm just one of these GNUish shiite evangelists.
 
@DeadMG, I kind of agree with you. But when I've done 3D I've used Ogre, which wraps up opengl/directx in quite a nice C++ manner.
 
11:19 PM
man
 
sbi
@jweyrich Oh boy. That's why you don't know how to pay the rent!
 
I tried OGRE
and all their
renderscene this
and I was like, wtf, that's no sense
 
Kos
@DeadMG, any experience with horde3d btw?
 
@sbi exactly. Time to surrender, I guess.
 
Kos
that one looks crazy
 
11:20 PM
no
 
Kos
XML-defined render pipelines and stuff
 
Really? Seemed to make perfect sense to me. And games like Torchlight would agree :)
But each tot heir own.
to their*
 
sbi
@jweyrich Welcome to the dark side!
 
I checked out SDL, SFML, OGRE and decided to write my own against Direct3D
 
I looked at the OGRE source code once and said "hell no!" We used OpenSceneGraph on the team I was on at my previous employer and it was quite nice; I liked it a lot.
 
11:21 PM
I end up with the exact features I want
and I'm not afraid of getting down and dirty with platform-specific details
 
Kos
Ogre's a game engine, not a rendering engine. Horde3d does rendering and graphics resource management.
 
@DeadMG and yet, Ogre is one of the most well designed engines you'll find. If not the most. Feel the pain.
 
sbi
@DeadMG Here's another one to look at: y60.artcom.de/redmine/wiki/y60
 
Kos
H3D's C api is like one screen of functions.
all resource-centered
 
C API? count me out
I've seen things like
glPushMatrix() in OGL
and it's like, no way, I am not dealing with that
 
Kos
11:22 PM
oh come on
you want object oriented
 
give me a nice D3DXMATRIX any time
 
Kos
you can have object oriented via C api
OGL's state machine oriented
that's why its crazy sometimes
 
@DeadMG, did you ever resolve that problem with the orientation, or just hack around it? :)
 
@sbi you see... it's interesting how many devels try to convert me to .NET. I just got a proposal this week to work with C#. I'm seriously considering it. Call me a traitor.
 
ah
turns out that it's just a mathematical fact of full 3D rotation
and that most games work around it by pinning the camera to a floor
since I have controls in all three dimensions, I figured that a little unwanted rotation wasn't that bad
the player can just rotate it back themselves
 
11:24 PM
@DeadMG LOL
 
Kos
DeadMG, what's the advantage of someObj->foo(params) over nsFoo(someObj, params)?
and having a C api instead of C++ api gives a whole degree of portability
like, use in python with no effort
 
Kos: The problem comes when you call nsFoo(params) and someObj is implicit
 
@DeadMG, I got around a similar thing in Ogre by having a separate scene node for each (X, Y & Z).
 
take, say, glPushMatrix
 
And so they were able to rotate indepedently.
independently*
 
Kos
11:25 PM
@DeadMG, I agree - consequence of ogl being statemachinish
 
the trouble with that is that all of my rotations are relative
 
Kos
and I don't like that part of it too
 
sbi
@jweyrich The company I now work for grilled me about C++ during the job interview. And then they made me write C# code. At gunpoint, mind you. Look at my SO user page. It's all C# questions and C++ answers.
 
you can't rotate them separately because they're not independent- they're all relative
 
@sbi hahaha. I'll probably follow these same steps.
 
11:26 PM
Well, at the end I had a nice rotate whatever free-moving camera with very minimal effort.
 
oh free movement is easy
it's free rotational movement that's hard
 
Kos
@DeadMG but still (especially in GL3 and up) that's mostly the matter of glBindFoo(x) + doSomethingWithCurrentFoo(params)... so like 2 calls instead of one. The size of state machine got small enough to make it possible to actually be comfortable with it
 
@Kos: But why would I put up with that? Compared to the ease of use of D3DXMATRIX
 
sbi
@jweyrich You mean you want to be cheated into doing something you don't like?
 
DeadMG, that's what I'm saying. It had free rotational movement.
 
11:28 PM
around it's own relative axis?
 
Kos
@DeadMG, now it's glm::mat4 instead of D3DXMATRIX anyway, so the same thing :)
btw- what's this thread about rotational movement being hard? can someone summarize the problem for me?
 
basically
let's take an arbitrary 3D object at an arbitrary point in space
you pitch it, then you yaw it
now it's rolled for no apparent reason
you spend literally a week trying to work out why this happens
 
That's Gimbal lock.
 
no, it isn't
 
@sbi not really. I like C#, but not to the point of using it on a daily-basis, I believe. I prefer low-level stuff - system internals mostly, but not strictly. The problem is that where I'm currently living, it's difficult to find a reasonably good job on this field.
 
11:30 PM
Anyway, the free camera: ogre3d.org/tikiwiki/…
 
Kos
what do you mean it's rolled for no reason?
 
well
 
Kos
why is magic involved? you observe the roll? or you calculate the euler coords back from the matrix and you have the nonzero roll?
 
the camera rolls, even though you don't post any roll requests
and I have nice pixel shaded multicoloured spheres upon which to observe the effect
 
Kos
i can't remember seeing that whenever i implemented a free-flying camera on eulerian rotation
 
11:32 PM
@DeadMG are you using a quaternion or a plain matrix?
 
a plain matrix
all the camera rotations are relative
so I kept a CameraRotationMatrix around and then rotated X, Y, Z axis so they were relative to the camera
then made a rotation matrix for each requested roll around the relative axis
then stuck them on to CameraRotationMatrix
 
@DeadMG like @MooJuice said, you'll very likely experience gimbal locks. You better employ a quaternion for this matter.
 
That's how I answered his original SO question :P
 
can't
 
Before he hacked around it, lol
 
Kos
11:34 PM
wait, why would quaternions be better than matrix multiplication
 
@DeadMG why not? You can convert them back and forth.
 
I already tried replacing my matrix with a quaternion
not much happened
more specifically, D3DX does not provide a function to rotate a 3D vector with a quaternion
I'd just end up converting to a matrix every time I needed to use it anyway
plus
 
Kos
you can use glm with directx, I think :D
 
gimbal lock is where you LOSE rotational freedom
I've got th problem of too much rotation, not too little
 
Kos
gimbal lock happens when you operate on eulerian coordinates
not on matrices
i can't see how a quaternion would help
 
11:36 PM
see
I never actually understood what Euler angles actually are
since I checked out D3DX in more detail, and it seems to me like they already use Quaternions for everything
if I wanted to use Euler angles in D3DX, I don't think I would actually know how
 
@DeadMG nor does OpenGL. But it's relatively easy to convert a quaternion to axis angles (euler)
 
I can replace my matrix with a Quaternion easily
but I'll bet it makes no difference
 
Kos
@jweyrich, is it?
 
Oh dear, I seem to have a variable called "preamble".
I suppose it is better than "tmp".
 
oh look
guess what?
problem still manifests
 
11:43 PM
 
I used to use variables called "tmp" and such all the time
but not anymore
just now I had
D3DXQUATERNION qrotx, qroty, qrotz;
 
Kos
btw
can $ be a valid part of indentifier in C, C++?
 
no]
oh wait
MSVC doesn't seem to object
 
it sounds horrifying in principle though
 
@Kos not standard, afaik.
 
Kos
11:45 PM
i've heard of it working on some GCC's and not working on some other GCC's.
I once thought that C looks fun when you emulate :: with $.
void Class$funcname(Class* this, int param) { ... }
it effectively kills the fun when you use an underscore instead.
 
ugh, takes me back to the days of BASIC.
 
Kos
come on, the sheer possibility of syntaxically and semantically correct usage of "this->field = 123" in pure C makes one feel like a god
 
no, it doesn't
it makes one feel like an idiot for not just using C++
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb I want to see the day you enter the chat and do not say "ohh" as the first thing.
 
Kos
11:50 PM
gave me quite a nice feeling in the days when I found myself unable to configure g++ to work with some arm target
 
@Kos Sometimes I catch myself using bitand, bitor, xor and compl.
 
Kos
@jweyrich, wow. and digraphs, perhaps?
 
trigraphs, lol
isn't there a WTF operator? the ??!??! trigraph sequence
 
Kos
trigraphs too.
 
can't remember what it actually results in
 
sbi
11:52 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb Di I offend you? I didn't mean to sound so harsh. (This was the Grumpy Old Man's way to say welcome, you know?)
 
Kos
char c = "sup":>8]
 
@Kos don't push it. haha
14
Q: Why are there digraphs in C and C++?

SydiusI learned today that there are digraphs in C99 and C++. The following is a valid program: %:include <stdio.h> %:ifndef BUFSIZE %:define BUFSIZE 512 %:endif void copy(char d<::>, const char s<::>, int len) <% while (len-- >= 0) <% d<:len:> = s...

I hope @JamesMcNellis doesn't read about my rants regarding MS.
 
Kos
char c = "sup, world" [8 :> ;\
i can't believe it compiles
or wait... let's change it
char c = "________" [8 :> ;\
great, new record in most emoticons in a valid C line
 
you can do better than that with lambdas in C++0x
you can do something like
 
Kos
[](){};
 
11:58 PM
@Kos use d= and you get one extra.
 
Kos
nice catch!
 
[](){[]([](){}()){}};
no wait, that's not right
 
maybe you could also typedef the char, or even redefine it? lol.
 
lo
 
Kos
throw a [&] somethere, DeadMG
 
11:59 PM
lol
but then it wouldn't be all one statement
oh wait, it could be
but I can't remember how to take lambdas as arguments
 

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