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Xeo
8:00 PM
Hm.
Well then, still, 4.
@MooingDuck Linky?
 
@Xeo what? Oh, no. I mean I saw a lot of SO questions saying "Now that we have {} uniform initialization, we don't need () anymore and why doesn't my code work right?" So you're addressing that question?
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Yes.
Benjamin Lindley made me have the idea.
Basically, my answer is already below that comment. Now I just want to transfer that over to SO. :)
 
@DeadMG I'm pretty sure your "Impact on the Standard" section is misleading. "The primary impact on the Standard is the deprecation of existing components. There are no additional language or library features required."
 
I haven't yet revised it
 
8:03 PM
> The propose of this proposal is to propose
 
@MooingDuck Aside from the ones proposed here, of course.
 
Xeo
> The purpose of this proposal is to propose
Sounds weird.
 
Yeah my proposed version is better.
 
lol
 
Xeo
8:05 PM
heh
 
> The purpose of this document
better?
 
Ell
the propose of this proposal is to propose a proposition proposing...
 
"This proposal defines..."
 
Ell
@DeadMG what is narrow encoding? ascii?
 
I have always been a fan of "this document".
 
8:06 PM
@Ell whatever the C++11 narrow encoding was. Backwards compatible.
 
@Ell Implementation-defined.
 
@Ell It's a mess, basically.
 
yeah
 
Ell
ahh right
 
the main purpose of having the narrow encoding in the list is to make implementers provide a conversion function from that to Unicode.
it's not to deal with that.
 
8:07 PM
From what, though?
 
whatever the C++11 narrow encoding was
 
Hmm. I still haven't posted that c32rtomb question on the mailing list.
 
@DeadMG Your proposal appears to make implementing a codepage-backed string very complicated.
 
Ell
"Unicode validation failure throwing an exception is well known to be a limited solution in many cases"
"it will validate that it is well-formed Unicode. If not, an exception shall be thrown."
 
@DeadMG It can change at runtime.
 
8:08 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes The encoding of a literal string cannot change at run-time.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Also, I suspected this at the latest from the moment when Joel admitted he doesn't know what the torque setting on a drill is for. Real men just know that. :)
 
@MooingDuck Good. Nobody should do that anymore- I'll be glad to contribute to the death of codepages. It's one thing to load old legacy codepage-stored data, and quite another to still be actually using it in that form today.
 
But the way the standard library interprets it can.
 
@DeadMG you're making it hard to load the legacy data (it appears)
 
if I have a struct with a constructor, can I still use aggregate initialization?
or will that automatically turn into a constructor call with c++11 if the arguments match?
 
8:09 PM
@sbi I don't know. I'm going to claim that's because I'm a robot.
 
@MooingDuck No I'm not. You can convert between any encodings in the list with the free function. And you can make a view of an existing encoding as Unicode with another free function.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes What do you mean, you don't know??
 
@melak47 Latter.
 
@melak47 Latter if the constructor is user-provided (i.e. anything that isn't something like foo() = default;).
 
@sbi I don't know what a torque setting is for.
 
8:10 PM
For torque, duh.
 
Xeo
Dammit, I just found this question. :( No repwhoring for me.
 
@DeadMG the predefined encodings use an enum, which is not easily extendable to the codepage concept. Maybe you address that later, haven't gotten that far yet
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes @LucDanton ok, cool :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, then the conversion function is just going to have to respect the current setting, just like everyone else.
 
@DeadMG unicode_string doesn't appear to be explicitly constructable from a unicode_string with a different encoding, except with the iterators.
 
8:11 PM
Yeah, I was about to mention that. There's no way to create my own encoding.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes What?
 
Xeo
And the robot even answered that and doesn't remember!
 
@sbi Why would I?
@Xeo Don't remember what?
WTF.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can effectively work with any encoding by presenting a view of it as Unicode codepoints. If you have some encoding that isn't pre-provided, then yes, you'll have to make that view yourself.
 
Xeo
1 min ago, by Xeo
Dammit, I just found this question. :( No repwhoring for me.
 
sbi
8:12 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because you've used a drill?
 
@MooingDuck Good catch.
 
@sbi I don't think I have.
 
I've used a drill, but I never read the manual.
So I have no idea what that is either
 
@DeadMG Are you certain you want to provide back() and front()?
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus I used to be a fanatical manual reader, but I have never read my drill's manual.
 
Ell
8:13 PM
I've used a drill many a time. I thought it adjusted the torque of the drill so you don't wear the thread?
 
@MooingDuck Yes. They're pretty harmless, and quite equivalent to *begin() and *(end() - 1)
 
I've used it to drill holes. It's pretty straightforward.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes O.M.G. Did I already wonder about young people today?
 
Ell
or if it's into wood, it only drills so deep
 
Point and click.
I don't tend to fiddle with unknown settings on machines.
 
8:14 PM
@sbi Why would I need to use a drill?
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus "Smith and Wesson: The original Point-And-Click interface."
 
@DeadMG care to add a const char(&array)[len] constructor overload to avoid doing a strlen at runtime on a string literal? Always irked me that std::string didn't have that.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Just use a UDL for construction from literals! :)
 
@MooingDuck What if the array is not full? (char x[1000] = "foo";)
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Often, drills are used to make holes. You can, however, also drive screws with them, stir a bucket full of color, and foam a pot full of milk.
 
8:15 PM
If anyone cares to help a poor stressed out college student who is behind on his cs material, stackoverflow.com/questions/13239623/…
 
@MooingDuck Not particularly, no. At least, not right now.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's full of zeros, no issue
 
@sbi Well, I never did it. I have however, worked several summers at my father's... what do you call that place where they repair cars? I know my way around many tools, but drills are not one.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck But you get a way oversized string from that.
 
@MooingDuck But the size is 3, not 1000.
 
8:16 PM
Oh, it's just about power?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Garage.
 
Then I didn't know that has a funny name.
 
> It is not mandated that this return type supports all the usual operations of unicode_string.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes What do I call it? "Kfz-Werkstatt". In English it's called a "garage", though, I think.
 
Usual in what sense? Does some_stream << (s + t) work?
 
8:17 PM
German words are really weird.
 
@Xeo I guess my proposal makes more sense if there's also a nonconst version that does strlen
 
Xeo
"car service station", it seems.
 
@sbi Next time we meet (Thursday?) you need to tell me how to pronounce "Kfz".
 
Like you're choking.
 
@LucDanton I'm dropping that.
it doesn't work properly.
 
8:18 PM
@DeadMG I'd rather encoding be a series of classes (like type_traits) rather than an enum, so it's user extendable.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's an abbreviation. (You don't want to know.)
 
@sbi Yes, I do!
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes "K" as the "ca" in "car", "f" as in "eff" and "z" as in... "Zettel", I guess? Don't know a good English word to use there for comparision.
 
And why does the convert function take encodings? Both sets of iterators should be providing a known (char32_t) interface.
 
@MooingDuck But then we'd be back to codecvt, which is the most worthless shit ever.
 
8:19 PM
@DeadMG I considered recommending a concepts(-like) approach that would allow for expression templates as an implementation detail but it's an (unneccesarily?) ambitious approach.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sigh. "Kraftfahrzeug" (You asked for it!)
 
One line functions (like setters), should they be placed in cpp file, or inside class in header file?
 
I know "fahr".
 
@DeadMG even if it's got no members it's still better than an enum.
 
Xeo
@VinayakGarg They shouldn't be one-liners, in the normal case.
 
8:19 PM
@MooingDuck If both are using char32_t, then what conversion are you doing?
 
@sbi Thanks. (Why would I not want to know?)
 
@MooingDuck If it's got no members then how does it effectively lead to different encodings?
 
@VinayakGarg In case of setters they shouldn't exist.
 
sbi
@VinayakGarg There should be no setters or getters.
 
@DeadMG it's user-extendable
 
8:20 PM
@MooingDuck How? It's got no members.
 
@DeadMG It's a tag. std::bidirectional_access_tag
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's a vehicle ("Fahrzeug") moving of its own power ("Kraft").
 
@MooingDuck A meaningless tag.
 
What if there isn't option? Is it bad design?
 
You need to put an implementation somewhere.
 
8:20 PM
If you want Unicode conversion with just iterators, then both iterators have to be encoding-awaer.
 
@MooingDuck The iterator hierarchy is completely unextendable.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wait, yes, yes it is. Nevermind.
 
And it sounds icky anyway.
 
BTW the one liner I am talking of, is for initiallization of static member
 
8:21 PM
Just take a bytestring and return another bytestring.
Static members shouldn't exist either.
 
@CatPlusPlus They have an encoding argument.
 
@CatPlusPlus aaaah
 
oh, yeah.
if you had a type trait, how dafuq could you deal with an encoding you didn't know until run-time?
 
@sbi And for the benefit of those that didn't notice: this etymology mirrors that of 'automobile'.
 
Bang your head on the desk until you die because you're dealing with Unicode
 
8:23 PM
@DeadMG does it take iterators that don't "point at" char32_t then? convert(stdstring.begin(), stdstring.end(), wstring.begin(), narrow, wide);?
 
sbi
@LucDanton Oh. Indeed. It might be a literal translation. That hadn't even occurred to me,
 
@MooingDuck Yes.
 
@DeadMG I guess that makes sense.
 
I need to hop off for a bit
 
@CatPlusPlus Why?
 
8:23 PM
feel free to prepare more questions/criticisms/etc on Unicode proposal.
 
Also you're all fucking masochists, writing Unicode libraries
@EtiennedeMartel Globals.
 
What if you want to add access qualifiers to your globals?
 
If setters (and static members) shouldn't be there, then what is the proper way?
 
Globals are bad.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm proposing one, not writing one. ^^
 
8:24 PM
Then what do you propose?
As a replacement?
 
I don't know, ummm
Maybe...
 
good design?
 
Global constants are perfectly fine.
 
locals?
 
inb4thecat
 
8:24 PM
Locals where?
 
Also go fuck yourself flood control
Locals where you need them
I believe you OOPers call it "dependency injection"
 
@sbi public variable then?
 
So, you're saying to replace static members with DI?
But, if I, say, have a private static member, which means it's an implementation detail, I'm not sure I want to burden my users with the requirement to pass me such a thing.
 
I haven't used a static member in years. Global state is bad mkay
Libraries with global state should die horribly in fire
But what do I know
 
@DeadMG Meh, I see that as a rare use case (basically, only text editors need that; and even then, the set of possible encodings is set at compile-time; unless you're making an application for making up encodings shrug)
 
sbi
8:27 PM
Why do you think you need to grab into a class instance's innards and shift it's bowels? If you want the instance to do something for you, you should just ask it using its public interface. Read this.
 
@sbi 'Nevertheless'/'nonetheless', 'nichtsdestoweniger', 'néanmoins' all have a similar etymology. Don't know of the Latin for that, if there is.
 
I just spent half of my life on this shit
 
@DeadMG: you're redefining std::istream& operator>>(std::istream&, string&);
 
@CatPlusPlus Non-const?
 
I don't treat constants as state.
 
8:28 PM
@CatPlusPlus lol. You're twenty.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yap. It's sad isn't it
 
You need to get out more. And stop worrying that much about static members.
4
 
cat bitching again
 
I'm depressed fuck you
2
 
fuck you too
 
8:30 PM
@CatPlusPlus It's good to be explicit, someone might get confused and think 'static' is the problematic part.
 
Woah, woah.
 
It's true I mostly use them as readonly stuff in C#. So I'd say I could live without statics. But not without constants.
 
Zyyy cannot be a real script. You're pulling my leg.
 
@CatPlusPlus Bromance between the little cat and the big cat.
 
8:30 PM
@MooingDuck It's "Common".
 
Well, constants are not state
 
It's just a code.
It's for stuff that is common to many scripts.
lol, Zyyy.
 
@EtiennedeMartel lol
 
@MooingDuck I am currently using the codes, not the names, in my enums (will fix the code generator sometime), and the puppy just copy-pasted it from there.
 
@DeadMG: I think I'd be happier if properties could be queried individually too. I would imagine that querying one property would be a lot faster than querying them all, unless all the codepoint_properties for all characters were precomputed.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What? What's Zzzz?
 
8:33 PM
@MooingDuck "Unknown".
It's for unassigned codepoints, I think.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes at least Zzzz is believable as some sort of "other" category.
 
@CatPlusPlus Then it's agreed. Let's drink.
 
My head is already in pain
 
@MooingDuck All Z...s are.
 
@DeadMG: Does the unicode_string interface provide a way to get at the code-unit-iterators?
 
8:34 PM
I probably got a cold again
Fucking cold.
Like I'm not miserable enough. Fuck you universe
 
@DeadMG: Actually, you don't detail the iterators anywhere, oh, right, there's a note saying that.
 
@MooingDuck @Xeo did say he was premature.
2
 
That's what she said
 
Xeo
Robot ripping stuff out of context again.
 
@DeadMG: It appears that the std::unicode::encoding::convert function cannot be used in any way with the std::unicode::encoding::unicode_string type. That seems wierd.
 
8:37 PM
@CatPlusPlus ⁵
 
@LucDanton I concur
 
Oh wait, yes it can, All unicode_string::iterators have the utf32 encoding. That seems wierd.
 
Don't force internal representation, it doesn't matter
 
@CatPlusPlus Hey, the universe won't pity you only because you feel bad. So clench your teeth, raise your head, and piss on everybody's cake.
 
Unicode iterators should return Unicode strings of length 1.
 
8:38 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Throw it on the ground first.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. That'll teach him. Fucking cake, acting all smug and sugary.
 
Smugcake
 
@DeadMG: There appears to be no easy way to initialize unicode_string with UTF8 that is not already in a unicode_string, unless a user creates a custom utf8 iterator.
 
Pass (foo.c_str(), whatever_that_enum_is::utf8) no?
 
unicode_string decode(byte_string, encoding)
 
8:40 PM
@LucDanton to what function?
oh, it can take utf8 if it's already in a std::string, that's something
 
unicode_string(const char*, encoding);
 
@DeadMG: Why are the std::string constructors overloads rather than just having a default parameter
 
> A constructor which can take an encoding is available for UTF-8 const char*.
 
@LucDanton wow, I failed to notice that. I guess I'm done analyzing this.
 
I wonder what unicode_string(const wchar_t*); does.
 
8:42 PM
Shits itself
That's what anything that uses wchar_t ultimately does
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Magic.
 
Did I mention I liked the old cat better?
 
Hey BF1942 is free
 
That's not new, is it?
 
lol
This is C related, not sure if this applies to C++, but could anyone just explain to me what -> exactly means? In specific this relates to linked lists.
 
8:48 PM
a->b means (*a).b. Next time, check your nearest book.
 
I don't have a C book :\. What does the . mean exactly... haha
 
We don't have C books either
 
Google really hates -> it gives ridiculous results.
So -> does not apply in C++?
 
Not in the same way.
 
Pointers are are bad anyway.
 
8:52 PM
Anyway, any decent introductory material on C (whether in book form or not), should cover this.
Jan 6 at 0:01, by R. Martinho Fernandes
a->b may be transformed into a.operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->().operator->()->b
 
That's the C++ version.
 
Is that just like NaN = +[![]] // 6
 
I don't know what that is, but looks like JavaScript or something.
 
yeah
lol
 
8:57 PM
btw, @Xeo, thanks for the publicity :P Got two upvotes on the answer to the question you wanted to post. :P
@sbi Now I have.
Man, that was a late reply.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes One was mine
 
@OstapHnatyuk a->b means "the member named b of the thing that a points at. As far as raw pointers go, C and C++ treat this the same.
 
        for( int i = length( pBuffer ) - 1;  i >= 0 && pBuffer[i] < ' '; --i )
        {
            pBuffer[i] = '\0';
        }
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf odd
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Why not use memset?
Oh, wait.
 
9:02 PM
There is a bug in the above...
 
So like if I had a struct and I called it q and I had an int called z would q -> z = 2 just set the z in q equal to 2? No rhyme intended.
 
Didn't see the second part of the condition.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf skips the last character
 
char* pBuffer = ....;
 
Xeo
Nvm, didn't see the - 1
 
9:03 PM
@OstapHnatyuk if you have a struct and called it q and it had an int called z, then q.z = 2` would set the z in q equal to 2.
 
well no, the i >= 0 takes care of that
 
@OstapHnatyuk if q was a pointer to a struct blah blah blah, then it would be q->z = 2
 
Oh, okay that makes sense now.
 
Xeo
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Nah, I thought int i = length(pBuffer), so on the first check pBuffer[i] would be out of bounds, but it was length(pBuffer) - 1
 
Thanks!
 
9:04 PM
it's code meant to remove pesky control characters from end of string
like in Windows error message string
:-)
and i just wrote that earlier today, forgetting that char is signed
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf oh! HA!
 
I knew I had written this before, but could not find it in the transcript, so I wrote it again.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no easy way to delete inadvertently?
 
lol
Nyarlathotep is the Crawling Chaos, so it seemed appropriate for some reason.
 
9:15 PM
@MooingDuck They are. They're stored in the UCD, which is effectively just a big-ass array of all the properties.
@MooingDuck No, and it shouldn't.
 
About 6KB big.
 
@MooingDuck Nope. Unicode is in codepoints. All Unicode algorithms and interfaces are in codepoints. There's no place for code units in the interfaces. They are an implementation detail exclusively.
@MooingDuck There should be both const char* and std::basic_string constructors with an encoding parameter.
 
@DeadMG it's just awkward alongside the convert function, but I agree
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's not as big as I feared actually
 
@MooingDuck How so? The class presents a UTF-32 view of it's contents, and you can always convert(str.begin(), str.end(), output, UTF32, desired_encoding);
 
@MooingDuck Actually, I just checked and the whole .o is under 5K. But I'm not including the Unihan database, which has properties specific for Han scripts or somesuch.
 
9:23 PM
@DeadMG so yes, when passing a unicode_string<utf8>::iterator to the convert function, you should claim it's UTF32.
 
@MooingDuck The string always presents a codepoints interface, as it should do. Originally you couldn't even specify the encoding. The encoding is only there to prevent having to deal with various copies and whatnot when dealing with text in some other pre-known format.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What are these names?!? o.o
 
17 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Nyarlathotep is the Crawling Chaos, so it seemed appropriate for some reason.
 
Huh... I see
 
Azathoth is what passes as its "parent".
 
9:26 PM
Did you guys in America vote yet?
 
so
any more niggles with ye olde unercode proposal?
 
@Rapptz Tomorrow, though some vote early for various reasons
 
Most states have early ballots. Few don't.
 
What does it mean to "be capable of storing losslessly all Unicode codepoints, and presenting them"?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Anyone who wants to load a text file provided by the user has to deal with what encoding it's in.
 
9:35 PM
@Rapptz Oh, that was not "has election day passed?", but rather "have any of you done early voting?"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Spitting them back out. Could use re-wording, I guess
 
Yeah. I have to vote tomorrow because my state sucks.
 
@DeadMG Isn't that what storing "losslessly" means?
 
@Rapptz Couldn't do an absentee ballot? I'm going in the morning as well.
 
well, arguably, you could have an implementation that stores them losslessly but didn't return them.
 
9:36 PM
What.
 
Damn it, it's snowing.
 
naw, you're right.
 
You're talking about encodings.
 
I already took the day off so I don't really mind. I just hate doing the whole primitive waiting in line thing.
 
@Rapptz Are you in one of those states that's been in hot water for voter suppression?
 
9:37 PM
No. I'm in Michigan.
 
@Rapptz I cast absentee ballots while I was in college there, and I only lived 20 minutes from home
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Arguably, I could encode it as an NP-Complete problem where the solution is the codepoint.
 
.
Not if you put strict complexity requirements.
 
fair shout.
something which I currently have completely not done.
 
I think it's fair to force all encoding and decoding to be constant-time for each codepoint.
Steam Big Picture looks nice.
I'm going to sleep now. Good night.
 
9:42 PM
nn
 
@EtiennedeMartel I know :(
 
I might need to get my winter coat tomorrow. I got out to get some coffee in it was a little bit cold.
 
what was the git source code bundle pasting thing again?
 
9:58 PM
gist.io, I think
 
oh thanks
"gist"
yes
 
not gist.io
gist.github.com
gist.io is for markdown parsing
 
10:23 PM
 
user142019
10:33 PM
Man.
 
user142019
I have a test tomorrow.
 
user142019
Analysis. The terriblest subject ever. With their UML crap.
 
You guys have such crappy courses.
 
user142019
I don’t even use classes. What do I need a class diagram for.
 
user142019
Scheiße.
 
user142019
10:39 PM
@pbhd hello.
 
Hua. Just sitting here and beeing drunk. Sorry.
 
user142019
@pbhd what does the + operator do?
 
It adds another beer.
Sorry. That was ++
 
user142019
lol
 
@Zoidberg'-- Wait. Analysis and UML diagrams? That doesn't quite go together, does it?
 
10:49 PM
Hmm. Was using the ++ operator recently, and while I was standing in front of the fridge I got scared about your +operator.
 
user142019
@NikiC nothing in that subject makes sense.
 
What if somebody gets stupid and passes 0?
 
user142019
@pbhd stop acting stupid.
 
@Zoidberg'-- Just to make sure I got that right: Analysis as in differentiation / integration / etc?
 
user142019
I don’t know the English terms.
 
10:51 PM
Ok. will only pass +1. No 0. And of course no negative numbers. Sorry.
 
user142019
Requirements, use cases, design, usability, testing, all that kind of boring crap.
 
user142019
Requirements you must follow, nothing much to add to it. And they may change. And testing is to find bugs before shipping.
 
user142019
Common sense, really.
 
Ah, then everything's alright. I already thought that they somehow managed to get UML diagrams into mathematical analysis ^^
 
user142019
We basically get two subjects: analysis and development.
 
user142019
10:53 PM
And next semester we get some more, I think. But I’m not sure.
 
user142019
We don’t get maths at all. ಠ_ಠ
 
are you in university or in school?
 
user142019
I don’t know how you call that in English. I think college.
 
user142019
It’s HBO-niveau in Dutch.
 
10:57 PM
@Zoidberg'-- And they really don't teach math there? :(
 
user142019
@NikiC nein.
 
@TonyTheLion I've seen that quote posted here a lot of times.
 
that's sad
 
user142019
You’re not even required to have had maths in high school since this year.
 
@Rapptz I've never seen that posted here ever
 
10:58 PM
Not the image, the quote.
 
I think math is the only interesting part when studying computer science ^^
The rest is just the usual BS :)
As you said: UML diagrams and stuff ^^
 
user142019
I’m not studying computer science.
 
user142019
More like, making software for customers.
 
user142019
Which is terrible.
 
uuh
 

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