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5:00 PM
lol... stackoverflow homepage goes into the seconds
 
1
where they are?
 
They're late! This wouldn't happen with Apple evangelists. Classic of M$
 
They're always late
Just look at Internet Explorer 8 :D
 
meh... we're talking about counting down the seconds here. I'm sure they'll be here soon
 
they're volunteering their time to come chat with us, so we'll cut them a few minutes' break :)
 
5:02 PM
wat... they don't get paid for this? I would be late too
 
looks like @JerryNixon is here :) welcome back, Jerry!
 
Hi everyone. My name is Jerry Nixon. I am a Developer Evangelist for Microsoft. I am in Colorado. This chat is to address any development questions you have with your Windows 8 apps. My focus is XAML and Doris' focus is HTML. Please prefix your questions with QUESTION and, please, start questions so I don't miss anyone.
3
Let's roll
 
Hello!!!
QUESTION: When will Doris come here?
 
QUESTION about Visual Studio Express 12. Which version (RT / Full) of Windows 8 it will run on?
 
As a special favor to me everyone, please +1 this question (stackoverflow.com/questions/13016861/…) I want to make sure the moderator does not close the question as I think it is important.
 
5:05 PM
hah
 
@P5music Visual Studio is a desktop application. And desktop applications are ONLY on Windows 8 (x86/x64) chipset. Windows RT (ARM chipset) has a desktop with Office 2013 pre-installed. However, custom apps like Visual Studio do not run on ARM.
 
QUESTION: Given that there will be no store apps allowed with content above PEGI 16+, What are MS views on applications that can be used online/multiplayer as the online content can never be regulated to a specific age limit?
 
Jerry Nixon, sqllite's C/C++ isn't particiluar friendly with ARM/C++ for Win8 and WP8
 
@mikeschuld That's totally XAML related.
 
QUESTION Are there any plans for C support in .NET? Personally, I prefer C over C++ for its cleanness, and functions like NET__System__someothernamespace__somefunc would be very useful to me
 
5:07 PM
Hey everyone.
 
Hey
 
@mikeschuld I believe this question is still in the air. I suppose it is the answer that is in the air. The bottom line is that the app is responsible for its own content - no excuses. If you show content from other sources, like a storefront, it is not an excuse to show porn (as an example) when it is explicitly not allowed. Apps that leverage external content that breaks the store rules will be removed. Having said that, you might have been asking how to filter - which is complex, I know.
 
@JerryNixon I would +1 it but I'm a moderator who doesn't know C++ :(
(lol jk +1)
 
@SiPlus I have not heard anything about C in .Net. I believe CPP is the future direction for general development on the MS platform. Why do you prefer C, as a curiosity.
 
QUESTION : I read in "Microsoft_Press_eBook_Programming_Windows_8_Apps_with_HTML_CSS_and_JavaScript_S‌​econd_Preview_PDF" that certain file read/write operations are programmatically possible only having a Corporate account in Windows Store. Who has to be corporate, the user or the developer? Is this also for C#/XAML apps?
 
5:10 PM
@P5music Amusing file name
 
@JerryNixon C is much cleaner than C++, C++ is a pile of garbage from different programming paradigms
 
@SiPlus That's an interesting, balanced and overall well-thought PoV.
 
lol
 
sarcasm?
 
@P5music Yes, the real thing here is that there are certain declarations in the application manifest that only "company" store accounts can deploy and use. For example EnterpriseIdentity and IntranetNetwork. The reason for this is because company store accounts can be verified more reliably than individuals.
@SiPlus I have my preferences, too. So, I can't say your wrong. But thanks. I am interviewing the C++ team for DevRadio today (actually in 45 minutes) if you have a question for me to ask, I will sneak it into the episode.
 
5:13 PM
QUESTION: If you are going to make an application for the Windows Store, does it have to support the "Metro" GUI?
2
 
QUESTION So it is just for "specifically declared file types", for example the ones you mentioned, special ones?
 
question: How can I build print functionality to print a full list in a ListView derived dynamically from a data source. i've seen this question on forums multiple times but not answers - stackoverflow.com/questions/13023080/…
 
QUESTION: Do I have to have Windows Visual Studio 2012 also on a Windows 8 machine in order to develop Windows 8 Metro Apps?
2
 
@cubsink, not necessarily
 
QUESTION: Can I develop a GTK app for the Windows Store?
2
 
5:15 PM
@cubsink Games are exempt from the Modern UI guidelines (for the most part) but productivity apps (what we call everything else) aren't. In all reality you will not get rejected from the store if you violate the guidelines. But your app will certainly stand out. Guidelines should be your DEFAULT if you don't have reason to break them. Breaking them is okay if you have a reason, though. In the end you have to do what is best for your app. We know that.
 
I am here. Sorry to join late as I have some internet problem in my area.
 
QUESTION Because C++ is closely related to C, let me ask a C question here. When will C11 features (most of which are already implemented in MSVC for C++) be added to MSVC for C?
2
Hi!
 
no problem, welcome back @DorisChen :)
 
Xeo
@SiPlus Well, it's not like C11 added much, and I think _Generics are the only big thing next to atomics (which are already there).
 
5:16 PM
@cubsink by metro gui, do you mean the looks of your app, or if it runs "in metro" or on the desktop?
 
@Cicada I am also wondering that
 
@jpm0004 Yes, you need to have Visual Studio 2012 for Windows 8 to develop Windows 8 application. All VS with Express term in it are free to use
 
QUESTION (a largely dumb one which I'm asking because my brain just shorted out on me): can desktop apps targeting .NET 3.0/3.5 run on Win8 without a prompt to "install"/enable it? I'm a little confused after reading that .NET 3.5 is installed but not enabled by default. Or is that handled seamlessly by .NET 4.5?
4
 
Has anyone in here submitted apps to Apptivate.ms (The StackOverflow contest for Win 8 Development)>
?
 
@melak47 I meant, does it have to run "in metro". But I guess I got my answer :)
 
5:17 PM
@Xeo But alignas, alignof and bool are already in C++, it shouldn't be very hard to add _Alignas, _Alignof and _Bool to MSVC
 
@SiPlus use #defines
 
@SiPlus You can find Herb Sutter's response to this question in his blog article: What about VC++ and C99? herbsutter.com/2012/05/03/reader-qa-what-about-vc-and-c99
 
@cubsink no, the answer was not asnwering your actual question :) AFAIK, windows store will NOT allow desktop apps
 
Xeo
@SiPlus If MSVC was a C compiler. "Alas", it isn't.
And C++11 only includes C99 by reference.
 
QUESTION: Is there a free version of Windows 8 that is not a trial that would allow me to being creating Metro Apps? If not, has Microsoft released a version of Windows 8 for purchase?
5
 
5:18 PM
@Cicada I meant different thing. This stuff works in MSVC with .cpp extension, but with .c extension the C equivalents of C++0x things simply don't exist
 
@JerryNixon sorry, the Print code sample doesn't help
 
@jpm0004 DreamSpark Premium offers Windows 8 to students (which is what I have on my box). Additionally I believe it also offers a free year of Windows Store dev membership
 
QUESTION: What is the canonical way to develop accelerated 3d graphics on metro ?
8
 
@cubsink No, your app does not have to run in the new execution shell (Metro) in order to be in the store. No. Desktop apps can be in the Windows 8 Store, too.
 
@melak47 So to be 100% clear on this, I can't develop a desktop app even with support for metro that also can run in the normal desktop environment?
 
5:19 PM
@kbok XNA?
 
@SiPlus It's discontinued
 
@SiPlus Do you have a specific question for me?
 
@kbok SharpDX
 
@P5music Not sure what you mean. I think it's "yes"? Ask me again.
 
@DorisChen Yes, but it's more of a suggestion than a question
 
5:20 PM
QUESTION: Will there be a way to install tools like WACK on the Surface RT?
2
 
@cubsink I don't know about that. But last I heard, pure desktop apps are not allowed in the windows store. Ask @JerryNixon
 
@jpm0004 Yes, to build Windows 8 Store apps you must develop on Windows 8. Visual Studio will install on Windows 7, of course. That is because you can build many types of projects in VS. However, for Win 8 apps, you must dev on W8.
 
@DorisChen In all modern browsers except for IE, there's XMLHttpRequest.overrideMimeType function. It's the only way to get binary data using synchronous XHR. I would like to see this function in IE10.
 
@melak47 Desktop apps in the Store are just a link to the app's website.
 
@JerryNixon So to be 100% clear on this, I can't develop a desktop app even with support for metro that also can run in the normal desktop environment?
 
5:21 PM
@P5music You need to install Windows 8 RTM first and then you can install Visual Studio 2012 Express.
 
has XNA actually been discontinued or is microsoft just not talking about it
 
@JerryNixon Given that "Apps that leverage external content that breaks the store rules will be removed" does this mean that the apps ALREADY in the store (like a Reddit app for example, which readily shows quite a lot of port) should not actually be allowed to be there? Is this also why there will not be any browsers allowed in the store as anyone using a browser could just google image search and break the rules?
 
@RohanSingh XNA isn't discontinued, Managed DX is
afaik
 
Thanks @BoltClock & @Jerry Nixon
 
@kbok There are DirectX 11 XAML sample apps installed
@SiPlus XNA is not supported in Metro, but will still work in the Desktop environment
 
5:22 PM
@Cicada I believe GTX apps require specific drivers in order to work. The answer would still be yes you can get in the store. But you can't restrict the installing architecture. Which means your app would not run on every platform. You might get rejected if you do not handle this case. But, then again, I am only slightly familiar with GTX development, to be honest. (we're all friends here)
 
QUESTION are common file/write operations which does not involve some special file types (and Manifest declaration) related to enterprise or dangerous operations allowed also for individual developers?
 
@mikeschuld, generally as long as default use of your application does not result in pornographic material you are ok, if a user drives your app to pull that type of content, what they seek is what they get
 
@SiPlus Sorry, I am not your guy to answer that.
 
@SiPlus Starting wiht IE 9, it is fully compatible with W3C standard for HTML5 and I will call it a modern browser as well. If XMLHttpRequest.overrideMimeType is defined in W3C, IE 10 will implement it.
 
@DorisChen overrideMimeType is W3C standard w3.org/TR/2008/WD-XMLHttpRequest2-20080930/#overridemimetype
 
5:24 PM
@DorisChen Does W8 RTM install on my Acer notebook? Do the applications I create with the Express version also for the Full/Intel version?
 
@BoltClock What are you talking about? What "install"? You mean for the framework?
 
question: a geolocation app i'm writing populates JSON data in a listview...oddly, the content in the listview refreshes on its own? do you have pointers on what could be wrong?
 
And the lack of overrideMimeType is serious breaking of compatibility
 
Regarding XNA, see the following: wpcentral.com/xna-dead-long-live-xna
Monogame to the rescue
 
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo that's monogame
 
5:25 PM
@jpm0004 Yes, there is the version developers can install from their MSDN subscription. You should have an MSDN sub! You can have it for free - read this: blog.jerrynixon.com/2012/10/…
 
Have you checked IE 10 Developer Guide http://www.ietestdrive.com/Links/DevGuide10.html
If it is not supported yet, I will forward your feedback to the product team. Thanks.
 
MonoGame is a free OpenGL implementation of the XNA 4.0 Framework. It is built upon the excellent range of Mono compilers and is compatible with MonoTouch (iOS), MonoDroid (Android), MonoMac (Mac OS X), Mono for Windows and Mono for Linux.
 
@JerryNixon From the screenshots here: msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh506443.aspx It looks like in order to run any app targeted for .NET 2.x/3.x the user has to go through that wizard to enable the 3.x framework first?
 
@mvark I don't know the answer off hand. I can't answer it here. Can you email the question in as much detail as possible? jnixon@microsoft.com
 
Therefore if you have a game that uses XNA you aren't SOL
 
5:27 PM
as long as monogame supports the features you use
 
@kbok Direct3D, of course
 
@JerryNixon thanks..i'll email
 
@DorisChen Would be really great if the product team accepts the suggestion. Also, overrideMimeType is not part of HTML5 or XHR2, it's from HTML4 era
@DorisChen Thanks
 
@P5music If you have an app developed with preview version, you need to test it on Windows 8 RTM version. Check my blog for system requirement and installation instruction blogs.msdn.com/b/dorischen/archive/2012/10/17/…
 
@cubsink Yes, you can develop a desktop app that has Metro support. You cannot develop a desktop app that runs in the metro execution shell. It runs on the desktop. (other than that, not sure what you are asking)
 
5:28 PM
@SiPlus I see. Thanks for additional information.
 
@SiPlus The best way to build XNA apps is using MonoGame. The only built-in method is Direct3d. XNA is still a fine choice for game developers.
 
@JerryNixon DX in Mono? O_O
I thought only Wine has DirectX
 
Xeo
@SiPlus OpenGL in Mono
 
Or you meant Mono for Windows, @JerryNixon ?
 
@Akinwale You mean on Windows RT, in general, I imagine. Yes, you can. Read this: blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2012/06/12/…
@melak47 Desktop apps are allowed in the store. The "Certified for Windows" logo is required for such apps. And the store does not fulfill those apps, either. The Store is more like a catalog for them. Search for 7Zip in the store. Desktop app. And it's in there.
 
5:32 PM
@P5music If you use HTML5, you can use new HTML5 File support to do some operation.
 
@cubsink Is that really 100% clear? What are you asking me? Yes you can develop a desktop app. But when you add "even with Metro support" it turns nonsensical.
 
@DorisChen Microsoft recently stated that WebGL is unsafe. But WebGL has already became very popular, and it's supported by Firefox, Chrome, Safari and Opera. Would Microsoft add optional WebGL support to not break compatibility, disabled by default and enablable though security settings?
 
@cubsink: (@Jer
whoops
 
Similar to Opera
 
question: my app executes fine...but i see this warning in the output window. will this affect certification? the warning: 'WWAHost.exe' (Script): Loaded 'Script Code (MSAppHost/1.0)'.
Exception was thrown at line 2, column 49200 in ms-appx://ed37a667-c473-41ba-b986-2a8b6a099a33/js/jquery-1.8.1.min.js
0x800c001c - JavaScript runtime error: Unable to add dynamic content. A script attempted to inject dynamic content, or elements previously modified dynamically, that might be unsafe. For example, using the innerHTML property to add script or malformed HTML will generate this exception. Use the
 
5:34 PM
@SiPlus WebGL is not a W3C standard yet so IE won't support it until it becomes W3C standard.
 
@DorisChen But WebGL is a Khronos standard
 
@cubsink: (@Jerry Nixon correct me if I am wrong) Think about it like this, there are desktop apps and Metro apps, one runs on the desktop the other in metro you can't run in both. Both can be made available in the Windows Store.
 
@mikeschuld I do not know how those apps prevent disallowed content. I do know that they are required to. I don't know that they even do. But I can tell you this, if your rss reader app is marked for an age my daughter can download, and then that app displays that type of content (the bad stuff) I would want it removed. The app is responsible for its content, not the store. Your question is above my pay grade. Sorry, mate.
 
@mvark Are you using Scirra or a game creator software?
 
no
 
5:36 PM
@mikeschuld Just to be clear, XNA is supported, just not native. Use MonoGame.
 
@DorisChen I want to know what version of Windows8 I have to buy to develop Windows8 Metro apps for the Full/Intel OS version but using Visual Studio Express 12 and with my Intel notebook.
 
@mvark I have seen that issue using certain jquery libraries, are you using latest jquery libs?
 
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo @JerryNixon This is exactly what I am thinking too. And that was what I asked about. Sorry for being unclear.
 
i'm using 1.8.1.min.js ...& a 3rd party api to fetch JSON data
 
@mvark Don't use jQuery in Win8 apps, jQuery is not developed and optimized for Win8 apps
 
ssh
5:37 PM
QUESTION: Will Microsoft make sure that the applications sold in the app store are free from viruses and are safe to use?
 
@BoltClock Ah, I see. If the framework is required the user has to install that framework. You know it's only once, right? Anyway, you can't get around that. I do suppose a smart installer could install them silently for you, yeah. But you would need to be sure of admin rights on that machine. Remember, we are talking desktop apps here, not Store apps which do not have such scenarios.
 
@ssh Microsoft checks all applications before accepting, they also do performance and sandbox checks
 
@mvark I think you are using CDN for your jQuery library. Once you call external script through a iFrame or some other ways, you get into a web context mode which won't allow you to access any WinsJS, Win runtime. Try to keep all third party library local and follow this to see if you can make some scripts safe blogs.msdn.com/b/dorischen/archive/2012/10/02/…
 
@SiPlus Not sure what you want me to say there. Sorry
 
@JerryNixon That's true. How does Visual Studio 2012's installer get around that? From what I've seen it uses WPF 3.0 (or 3.5). Or is it not entirely managed?
 
5:39 PM
@JerryNixon I'm just answering
 
@P5music Windows 8 RTM is the version. Follow the instruction link I gave you earlier and you can pay about $49 to upgrade to a real Wins 8 license after 10/26.
 
Or community answers are disallowed?
 
@DorisChen i have the jquery file in my project's JS folder
@DorisChen my app runs fine...my concern is will the warning make the app fail the certification?
 
As long as you try to access any external scripts, and try to connect to Windows 8 from iFrame, you will probably see this msg.
@mvark I think it will. It's probably better to do a good check before you submit.
 
@JerryNixon Would you mind giving some feedback (and a possible vote) for my submission to Apptivate?
 
5:42 PM
@cubsink To beat this horse, think about the .Net CLR and how that execution RUNTIME is required for .Net applications to run. Similarly there is a WinRT and that RUNTIME is required to let WIndows Store apps (Metro apps) execute. They are similar but not the same. The .Net CLR gives .Net apps portability across the MS platform. The WinRT gives Store apps portability across architectures - and introduces a new set of paradigms to guarantee safety, performance, and battery life.
Not a correction, btw, just expanding!
 
^great answer
 
Has there been any consideration in making a tool that ports WP7 apps to Windows 8, at least semi-automatically? Or would that require too much intervention to be useful?
 
@user141603 That would be awesome, I love that my code isn't upside down with the new await keyword but I found it a little difficult to maintain my logic in some async methods from previous WP7 apps
 
@ssh This is impossible. However, the nature of Store apps is to not have access to resources without getting permission from users - we cannot prevent users from allowing access. To that end, Store apps are also in a sandbox that prevent them from screwing stuff up - even when given permission. Developers sometimes get excited over some of the limitations, but Store apps are intentionally designed to not wreck a system, kill performance, or nuke the battery.
@ssh Apps are also tested, which helps prevent viruses. Apps are also interrogated with automated tests. Insofar as it is possible, Store apps are the most trustworthy, curated family of apps in existence. So yes, the answer is no. :S
 
@JerryNixon Will there be a category for system apps on the store, which run out of sandbox?
Like file recovery software
 
5:48 PM
@SiPlus That's a great idea I've never heard before
 
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo what's the link?
 
ssh
@Jerry. Thanks . But these days (many) app developers are one of its kind building and releasing programs from their home. They may not really follow best practices for a good release build.
 
@DorisChen Do I have to pay to subscribe to MSDN?
 
ssh
QUESTION: Is it possible to enroll WinRT based device to a Windows domain and enforce security policies?
 
5:50 PM
@user141603 A Wp7->W8 auto-port does not make sense. Different frameworks. Different form factors. Different everything. Consider the auto-port tool to take a iPhone app and make it work on a Mac. It does not make sense. What you are prob getting at is that there is less reuse of code compared to WP8->W8. That's because WP is getting better. Prev apps still run and perform. But WinRT is now (finally) the standard. Porting them is manual, of course. It has to be.
 
@P5music Yes, MSDN subscription is a paid subscription. If you are work for startup, you can get Windows 8 RTM for free. You can join bizspark program microsoft.com/bizspark Otherwise, pay $49 upgrade will be a very good deal.
 
@user141603 Not to mention most developers do NOT build their applications with abstraction layers like they should. Porting would just exaggerate bad architecture and design. And those developers would just blame the port, never their own designs! But I am talking about THOSE developers, not us! :)
 
@JerryNixon Alright, that's what I expected. Thanks.
 
@P5music Every single developer should have an MSDN subscription. If you want one, read this: blog.jerrynixon.com/2012/10/…
 
@user141603 Take a look at Portable Class Libraries and try to use them if you know you are going to target multiple platforms, it is not complete, but much functionality is accounted for => msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg597391.aspx
 
5:52 PM
When are they going to kill off the Win32 api?
 
@Schneider NONONONONONONONONONO
 
Bizpark user here, definitely take advantage of that @P5music it's free
 
@ssh Windows RT devices can be 100% managed by configuration manager or intune. They can be subject to gpo like any computer. They are also 100% fulltime encrypted. They cannot be joined to a domain, however. Whatever reason you want to join to a domain is likely already solved in another way.
 
QUESTION (in case you missed) Will there be a category for system apps, like file recovery software, on the store, which run out of the sandbox?
 
@Schneider Once we kill ourselves, yes
 
5:53 PM
@DorisChen Are you talking about the $699.00 subscription?
 
@SiPlus No
 
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo Does PCL now support W8?
 
Got to go, goodbye
 
and WP8?
 
@user141603 it supoorts some functionality of .NET 4.5
 
5:54 PM
Everyone, I cannot stay late on this chat today. If you have any questions you are holding onto do it now.
 
15 mins ago, by BoltClock
@JerryNixon That's true. How does Visual Studio 2012's installer get around that? From what I've seen it uses WPF 3.0 (or 3.5). Or is it not entirely managed?
 
word on the street is that WP8 and Win8 will be very similar
 
MSDN Academic Alliance is awesome! Just got my win 8 pro key valid for 2 years! :)
 
WinRT async + WinMD is the right approach in general ....be nice to make Win32 obsolete
 
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo Yes
 
5:55 PM
@P5music bizpark is free for startups, just state that you are a startup (which I assume you are)
 
@goldenparrot Only for students and faculty, however
 
@P5music It's one of lower end MSDN subscription. Depends what you need, you can pick one from the subsction list as there are different package for it.
 
Can I arbitrarily claim to be a student? :D ... no? awwww
 
@JosephMarikle You can, you shouldn't. There are checks.
 
@JerryNixon what is the final story with WPF/Dx/WinRT interop?
 
5:57 PM
YMMV but if you get out to local user groups in your area and find a Microsoft Evangelist, simply mention to them you are interested in Bizspark
 
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo I am not a startup now.
 
@P5music if you make under $1million Bizspark is free
It doesn't require any official formation of a company or anything
 
2 minutes remaining! get your Qs in to Jerry and Doris now :)
 
@P5music If you just want to get Wins 8, the best is wait for the upgrade license after 10/26.
 
ssh
QUESTION: If a Windows 8 desktop machine (x86/64) is enrolled into a domain, will it start with usual login screen or Metro UI? If it starts with login screen, after logging in will it go to desktop or Metro UI?
 
5:59 PM
@DorisChen would you also be interested in looking at my Apptivate submission and leaving feedback (and possibly a vote)?
 
@DorisChen I could buy Windows8 Full/Intel even without upgrade. I just want to know if VS Express 12 will work on it and let me develop Metro Apps for the Intel/Full W8 machines.
 
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo Are you in bayarea? If so, please join one of our events and we can provide some feedback.
 
@P5music works great on my intel samsung slate
run win8 and dev in VS / Blend
@DorisChen, I wish, unfortunately I'm out in Houston, would love to get out there some day
 
@P5music If you machine has Windows 8 pro, you will be able to run VS. If you machine only has Windows 8 RT, you won't be able to run VS.
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo Perhaps to join one of the Wins 8 event in the area? Ping me and I will provide some local contacts for you.
 
@DorisChen I want a confirmation about VS Express 12 not the commercial VS version.
 
6:04 PM
If it's a Windows 8 pro, it will run VS Express.
 
@DorisChen Darn, SO won't let me pm because I have <20 rep, I actually volunteer with the local MS evangelist here and recently did a Win8 hackathon at the University of Houston and won the Dev Hackathon contest here a month back
 
@PaulLimen'SaltDeCarlo Keep up the good work and it will pay off...
 
Hoping to get on board with you guys soon
bye guys, I'm out
 
6:25 PM

Apptivate Chat #6 with Jerry Nixon and Doris Chen

2 hours ago, 1 hour 28 minutes total – 264 messages, 24 users, 49 stars

Bookmarked 5 secs ago by Abby T. Miller

 

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