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8:43 AM
@VLAZ that second strategy is very popular for a so-called "secret"
 
@RyanM Ironically, I might have used the word "secret" to mean the opposite thing.
 
Isn't that usage spelled "seekrit"?
 
@CodyGray Cody, Hello. Which C++ standard is the most popular?
 
that's probably somewhat unknowable
 
Yeah, I have no way of knowing
It doesn't really matter all that much.
 
8:57 AM
but I'd guess that IDE authors or maybe compiler authors with some sort of telemetry could have some stats
 
If you want to learn, C++17 is as good of a place to start learning as any.
 
what would be potentially useful is some sort of stats about the distribution that would let someone writing a tool or library or whatever say "I want to target at least X% of C++ developers and thus will develop with compatibility back to C++ Y"
 
1 year ago, Reddit said C++17. For whatever that's worth (nothing; it's entirely anecdotal, based on one person's opinion).
 
I have seen today a job vacancy. There was written: ... C+++ 11/14/17 ... Hey, how one person can know all subtleties of it
 
9:00 AM
Here's a JetBrains poll from 2019. They make an IDE that is popular (I guess? I've never used it.), so just what Ryan was saying.
And also what he just posted. :-)
 
That does seem like a slightly odd thing to write in a job req...like, surely they aren't using all three in one codebase? I hope?
 
@manro It's almost impossible to know all subtleties of C++. The job listing just means that you're familiar with and/or willing to use any of those versions.
@RyanM Eh, it's likely that they have legacy code still using C++11, but have migrated to C++17 for new projects. But also, people put the damndest things on job listings...
 
but also (and Cody can correct me if I'm wrong) I believe that if you know C++17 you mostly know lower versions, except for the hacky workarounds required to do things that you can do more easily in newer versions.
 
Yeah, that's almost entirely true.
 
I've heard of some pretty horrible template metaprogramming that's been made unnecessary in newer versions
 
9:05 AM
Microsoft used to have a survey asking what C++ language standard that devs were targeting. I remember filling it out a few years ago. But I can't find the results. I'm betting they were shared in someone's blog on MSDN, which is impossible to search effectively.
There are a tiny few edge-cases where some behavior changed between one standard to the next, or, a bit more commonly, where something was deprecated or even removed, but they're quite few and far between.
If you're writing code like that, you're probably an expert.
 
@CodyGray I think, that you a right.
This vacancy about C++ Cuda
 
Cuda is a completely different thing
 
yeah +1 for "people put the damndest things on job listings"
they are sometimes written by recruiters and not sufficiently reviewed by engineering
 
Why recruiters do that?
If they aren't competent
It can push away from their vacancies :-)
 
If they were competent programmers, they wouldn't be recruiters.
 
9:17 AM
Bad programmers are lowered to the recruiter position (often)?
 
Also the median engineer would also do a terrible job of writing job postings, but in different ways.
the correct answer is for them to sit down together and both write it.
but that doesn't always happen because they're in different organizations or maybe even different companies entirely
 
@manro No, almost never. They're two totally different jobs. Just like bad programmers aren't turned into sales people. But sales people don't know how to program.
 
I would be a horrible salesperson
I could do, like, sales engineering. But not sales.
 
You might underestimate your own abilities there. I would have thought I'd be horrible at it, but I have been forced to do it (the joys of a small company), and I'm actually not horrible at it. However, I do absolutely hate it.
 
That's possible! I would at least find it exhausting.
 
9:22 AM
Yup.
 
I do pretty well with people in general and could likely gain some advantages due to my technical background.
 
@CodyGray But old programmer could be :-) After retiring (in 50-60 years)
 
But...not my intended career path ^^;
 
@RyanM I hate people. :-(
2
@manro Why would you want to start a whole new career path after retiring?!
 
I could imagine someone, like, doing some contract recruiting on the side for extra income in retirement, maybe
 
9:24 AM
@CodyGray life without work is boring
you ll die faster
 
also contract recruiters make absolutely eye-popping per-hire commissions
 
Like real-estate agents in today's real-estate market :-)
But... also pass!
 
@CodyGray You endure me, so you can't say that. ha-ha :-)
Please, don't refute my statement :-)
 
Enduring or tolerating someone doesn't prove that I don't hate people
 
Why do you hate people?
If you hate only bad persons(f.e. violators, swindlers etc) - it's ok
I have one more question.
Also have seen in a job vacancy.
 
9:43 AM
I'm just not much of a people person. I like specific people, but I don't care much for hanging out with people in general or doing things that involve lots of people, especially people I don't know well.
 
Julia - is a stillborn language ...?
You are an introvert, it's ok
 
The Julia community thinks that Stack Overflow is a toxic place while also contributing to the toxicity whenever they use it.
But this isn't fun. I'll show myself out.
 
Julia isn't stillborn... There are people who use it, and, although I've never used it, when I looked into it, I thought it was pretty cool.
@E_net4thecommentflagger Hm? Have they actually said that somewhere?
 
That I recall, yes. More than once even. But I kept no references.
 
I don't understand the place of Julia in our world. You can use (R + C++) or python
 
9:50 AM
As I understand it, Julia is really meant to be a replacement for MATLAB, but with non-terrible performance.
I don't know too much about R, but I suppose you're right that it may also be a competitor to Julia.
 
Granted, there is an appealing edge to Julia for each language: its aggressive optimizations allow for better running performance without depending on impls in other languages (unlike Python). And it's actually free and open (unlike MATLAB).
 
I have read somewhere, that devs of Julia said, that if numPy was existed in the Julia development start time, they didn't start to make it.
 
That... seems unlikely? Julia should still have a huge advantage over Python in terms of speed.
 
Sorry for my English, but i think, that u understand what i wanted to say
 
It's a hard grab once you have a mature ecosystem in the Python world, yeah.
@CodyGray Numpy uses a native impl underneath. I don't recall if in C or in C++.
 
9:55 AM
I mean, it compiles to native code. It's going to beat the pants off of Python in every way.
Yeah, the NumPy library functions might be written in native code, but that isn't the same thing.
(It's C. But that doesn't matter.)
 
@CodyGray Also false. Many use cases for which both Python and Julia claim to excel in expect quick prototyping and bootstrap times. Python's ability to run new code dynamically is good. Julia isn't that great here.
At least last time I tried. Sometimes I had to wait several seconds just to update an interactive notebook cell.
 
You're saying that, in practice, Julia compiling to native code doesn't translate to much run-time speed boost?
 
If the time to compile the thing exceeds the time to run the actual thing, yes.
Or at least it's a hindrance.
On an interactive notebook environment, I don't want to wait this long just because I tweaked a parameter for a plotting function.
 
Right, yeah, I didn't have interactive usage in mind, necessarily.
My company has gobs and gobs of algorithms written in MATLAB, which we run over and over again on different data, without actually changing the code. Because they're in MATLAB, they're ungodly slow. I have ported some of them to C++, increasing performance on the order of 10 to 60 times (yes). But some of the algorithms are still under active development (tweaking), so me porting them to C++, as the only C++ programmer, is not a very smart idea.
This would be a fantastic use-case for Julia.
It's too late for us now, with such a large installed base of algorithms already written in MATLAB (and if we were going to port them, why port to Julia when you can port to C++), but if we were going to start over and I was advising, I'd have to strongly consider recommending to write in Julia, rather than MATLAB or Python or R.
 
Hm, It looks that Julia isn't so condemned
 
10:03 AM
Indeed it might have a higher benefit/cost ratio than translating to something else.
Now, if only the community cared to curate their SO tag properly.
 
But i saw extremely low jobs with Julia
 
Well, they probably wouldn't be programming jobs so much as data analyst jobs
It's still programming, but it's not programming for the sake of it (i.e., software development).
It's people who specialize in data analysis who use programming as a way to make their job easier
 
Hm, yes. How do you think, should I learn a little about Julia? If i'm interested in the data analysis area? Will it useful?
I saw, that i can call R from Julia
here is
 
It's never a bad thing to learn new things. Everything new you learn makes it easier to learn other new things.
That said, I don't necessarily think it makes much sense to spend a lot of time learning Julia when you don't even have a need for it, unless you just really like it and want to use it for fun (and/or are actively seeking a job using it because you like it).
 
10:19 AM
Learn Rust instead. You can call it from Julia. :)))
 
I'm guessing you'll struggle to find a data analysis job where they want you to program in Rust.
I don't say that to hate on Rust... I really wish I had time to learn it. I like the idea of it a lot.
 
@E_net4thecommentflagger What i can do with Rust?
 
Soon, you should be able to write Linux kernel drivers using Rust. :-)
 
@manro A great deal. The official website shows 4 major use cases (CLI, embedded, network, WebAssembly), but it has also ventures into HPC, game development, an more.
That is also true.
 
Basically, @manro, it's like C or C++, but designed to be a "safer" language and also more "modern" (using more modern constructs and more syntactic sugar, if you will). So you can pretty much do anything with it.
 
10:24 AM
My kernel drivers will destroy your PC :-)
 
The question is, where is it primarily being used. I'm not too sure about that, because I haven't gone looking for Rust jobs.
Haha, that's why my kernel drivers don't run on my PC! :-D
 
Rust want to dethrone the old boys C and C++?
 
I think that's the idea, yeah
 
Embedded was a place only form asm, c and c++
 
Oh, tons of things are in embedded now, including things that don't belong (cough Python)
 
10:31 AM
hm, i'm incompetent then
 
How did you jump to there from what I said?
 
I thought, that only asm, c and c++ in embedded
you said that it is false
even python there, oh)
 
With enough virtual machines on top, one can put nearly any language on a small device.
 
Yeah, there's a thing called Embedded Python, designed for use in embedded environments
That works because transistor technology has come so far that what is functionally an embedded device is actually an extremely powerful and capable computer
 
@E_net4thecommentflagger we can use rust even for stm32, wow
@CodyGray yes, i saw the modern raspberries
 
10:38 AM
You're not going to be running Python on an 8-bit PIC
But if you've got a big honkin' 32-bit or 64-bit ARM processor in there, sure, why the heck not? (Actually, there are lots of reasons why not. Power consumption/efficiency is one.)
The thing about technology fields, though, is that... if there's a way that something can be done, someone is probably trying to do it!
 
this tremendous quantity of languages creates a problem of choice
we need a unification
 
That's like saying that there are too many tools in your toolbox to choose from, so we need to unify them
Most of them have different purposes, and the rest comes down to what you personally prefer in a particular situation
 
At best, we can improve the ways in which they interoperate.
 
I don't really see that as being all that big of a problem
 
As you well mentioned, each may serve a different purpose, as in, do a specific task well. But if you want to do more than one task and use different languages, one needs to think about how to combine the outcomes. This isn't always trivial.
 
10:55 AM
Modern programmers look like MMA-fighters. They aren't super experts in one language, like in the XX-century.
yes?
 
Eh, some of us are...
Some are generalists, while others are not
 
And here is a dichotomy again. What is better :)
 
Nothing is objectively better
It all depends on what you like, what kind of job you want to do, what makes you happy
 
If say so: who will catch more money. Generalist or expert in one language.
 
Haha, it depends!
The generalist is probably on a better path to become a manager. Being a manager can pay better than just being a grunt doing the work.
On the other hand, the expert will have skills that other people won't, so there might be specialized things that only the expert can do. That'll lead to the expert getting paid more than the typical programmer who can do many things.
 
11:09 AM
The typical programmer can't become neither expert nor manager
He/she has a ceiling
 
Why?
 
He is a typical. To become an expert he should have more than average cognitive abilities
By my opinion
To become a manager he should have some abilities of interpersonal interaction
If he a typical person = i mean an average man
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think, that we can't leap over the ceiling of our predispositions.
 
Well, first, you'll have to find an average man :-)
 
I am no average man. I am min/max man.
 
11:24 AM
<insert joke here about me being mean>
 
You are a crabbie :)
Crabbie the gentleman
Cody, he stole your glasses
 
@manro These are definitely not Cody's glasses.
 
@E_net4thecommentflagger Your claws modified it
 
Where did you take it?
 

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