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12:54 AM
to everyone, tada - suggested usage guidance for Web Apps and included the "check me first" questionairre that I've been collecting for a while:
https://stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/26701596

Feel free to pick apart, suggest questions / changes / updates (until approved/rejected I can make changes anytime, any number of times)
 
1:05 AM
@OlegValter 👍
 
@Rubén - also hard data for your question about : posts that were tagged with that were also tagged with . Quite a few of them, btw: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1262928/…
 
@OlegValter Thanks :)
 
@Tanaike thank you - feel free to amend, I am sure I missed something, and you wrote a whole chapter on that :)
@Rubén don't mention - let me know if it can be improve somehow to include data more relevant to your question and feel free to incorporat if find anything useful ;)
 
@OlegValter Thank you. I saw it. At Web Apps, when the script is modified, it is required to redeploy it as new version. By this, the latest script is reflected to the Web Apps. This is most important for using Web Apps, and I often see the questions with the issue due to this. But I'm not sure whether this should be included in. How do you think about it?
 
@OlegValter So far the core of the question about is about the tag when tag should be used rather than how is being used and is far, far away from what should be done.
For moments I'm inclined to think that is meta-tag. Could imagine a question with that tag that doesn't require other tags?
 
1:16 AM
In this case, "4. If you redeployed, did you increment the script [version][1]?" might be related.
 
@Rubén I can only make ontological queries, not deontological :) We had a discussion with @TheMaster earlier today/yesterday as I am sure you've seen - looking into it deeper, I agree that as it stands now, is a meta tag ( afaik, there is a due process on deciding if something is a meta tag and should be dealt with - give me a sec to find )
@Tanaike , I apologise, I have been preparing an answer to Rubén's question, you seem to have noticed what I wanted to show you first :) Do you think it should be featured more prominently? I agree that this is one of the most (if not the most) common problem with Web Apps ( sharing the crown with "anyone, even anonymous" )
 
By the way, the users want to access to Web Apps using various languages. So I published the sample scripts for requesting to Web Apps using various languages from the questions I had seen. When this was useful for users, I'm glad. github.com/tanaikech/…
@OlegValter Thank you. No problem. My type speed is slower. 😅 At "Prior to posting, consider answering the questions below:", I thought that the section 4 is more important from my experience. So for example, how about modifying to "When the script is modified and the script didn't work, please confirm whether you redeployed the Web Apps as new version. By this, the latest script is reflected to the Web Apps."? But please modify my English.
 
@Tanaike that is extremely useful ( I linked to your whole chapter in the wiki, though - let's hope those who read wikis are also capable of using TOCs ). Your works definitely need more visibility - the access flow flow charts (no pun intended) are fantastic and could save us so many questions
 
@OlegValter Thank you so much. I'm honored for it. I would like to link from my repository of "Taking advantage of Web Apps with Google Apps Script" to the wiki. By this, I think that it will help users post the questions in Stackoverflow.
 
1:33 AM
@Tanaike my processing speed is slower, though :) re:#4 - sure, sounds good, how about " If you modified the script, but the Web App seems work the same as before - did you redeploy the Web App to a new version"? (also I think this one would be easier if you or @TheMaster to add / change as you can avoid pushing it to suggested edits queue)
 
@OlegValter Yes, I saw it. I have to say that I'm agree on most on the TheMaster's arguments regarding web-apps / web-applications + something tags.
Anyway, before joining that discussion I would like more answers / comments regarding my question.
 
@OlegValter Thank you. I agree with your proposal. When I saw stackoverflow.com/tags/gas-web-app/info , it's "Edit pending" now.
 
@Rubén I do not disagree with them either (it took me some time to understand them, though). In the case of Web Apps, using just fail my own procedure question: they can't be referenced without GAS ( in a sense that when they lose in volume of concept if used via builder pattern )
 
@Rubén sure - will provide feedback, and let's see if others join in ( I am curous about why Cody keeps telling mods lost the ability to historically lock - I missed that one, need to look through meta ). I think historical lock on the tag would be an ideal solution. Or, if that is not possible, we need a consolidated effort of other tag specialists to create language / platform specific tags for their use cases
@Rubén - re:meta tag. I would consider something to be a "meta" tag if one cannot point to a "real" thing (be it platform, website, script source code or language). In that sense, is definitely a meta tag. It probably wasn't as Ian validly mentioned, but now it is slapped on everything just because no one knows what to refer it to. Though, it cannot be burned due to historical significance. Now it turns out it cannot be locked as well, hm.
@Tanaike oh, included a direct link to tag wiki, thank you! Let us hope there exists an intersection between a set of those who read your works and those who read tag wikis :) Also, I just noticed that I forgot to reference Google groups, can somebody add it (btw, new UI for them looks very good)?
 
1:57 AM
@OlegValter Yes. I hope that these help users resolve the each issue. I agree to add Google Apps Script Community. It has a lot of very useful discussions. I also think they will be useful for a lot of users.
 
@Tanaike 👍
 
@OlegValter 👍
 
 
1 hour later…
3:30 AM
@OlegValter AFAIK "historical lock" exists(ed) for posts, not for tags
IMHO what is closest case are tags about things that become deprecated but might still be used
but in this case is of a "small" technology that "had exploded"
 
4:23 AM
@Rubén I went through several discussions, and now see that there were no historical locks apart from those on questions. And blacklisting of tags, which apparently is not possible anymore. In that case, how about renaming to and include "The tag bears historical significance, but became too broad and undescriptive. Please use platform, product or language-specific tags instead"?
@Rubén I agree, it used to represent a thing (a technology), but now it just means "any web application", which is not descriptive. I wanted to joke about using & , but apparently we have 236 such gems already: stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/web+web-applications
 
@OlegValter How does doing such thing will help?
 
@Rubén because I think people slap the tags that are suggested just by taking a quick glance on the name. Nothing else stops them, but this at least provides a way to ask a question "hey, why my question about a PWA has something historical suggested?". Although that can't be safely done without prior change of the relevant questions to reference respective technologies / platforms. And without a noitce. And without a community consensus
 
@OlegValter Basically you are suggesting that we add tags to tags. Right?
That will introduce a new order of meta-tagging :)
By the way we already have [historical]
 
@Rubén that's like firefighting by burning down the building in the first place :) That said,
@RubĂ©n I wanted to suggest it, but... meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/261572/… :)
 
4:40 AM
 
[historical-db] or [historical-debugging] you nearly got me, I thought the had been reinstated
@Rubén both seem to represent a specific technical term, do you think will start to be used that way?
 
@OlegValter No
 
but there are a lot of tags that nobody pay attention to them until some crazy people start talking about them
:)
By the way, another tag of the Google Apps Script family of tags .
 
@Rubén fun observation: tag taxonomy discussion in a JavaScript (basically) community :)
@Rubén huh? Oh, and I thought that my list of tags was complete
@Rubén I think it should go
 
4:48 AM
@OlegValter they "should" start by calling that folksonomy
Folksonomy is a classification system in which end users apply public tags to online items, typically to make those items easier for themselves or others to find later. Over time, this can give rise to a classification system based on those tags and how often they are applied or searched for, in contrast to a taxonomic classification designed by the owners of the content and specified when it is published. This practice is also known as collaborative tagging, social classification, social indexing, and social tagging. Folksonomy was originally "the result of personal free tagging of information...
 
@Rubén word of the day :) And quote of the day goes to: "tagging is easy to understand and do"
 
@OlegValter Tagging is easy, make it work in a large, open community... not.
Tagging is as easy as posting a question in SO
:D
 
@Rubén - what are your thoughts on this? I would say - it should be dealt with. As was merged into . As we do not have tags for specific services (hovewer prominent they are, and even HTML Service is in disccussion with @TheMaster).
 
xmlservice is a service like Gmail Service, Spreadsheet Service, etc.
Is there any expert in Class XmlService in the house?
Do they want to follow that tag?
 
My world was much better before you mentioned this tag. :) I queried SEDE for "-service" tags. Here are the results:
 
4:59 AM
@OlegValter :O
 
@Rubén alright, things are not that bad as they seem - only the tag above. But I did not include other naming, though...
@Rubén do you mind if I go and burn down it from these 2 poor questions? Question for discussion: should it be a synonym of google sheets (since it is only possible to use with them)?
 
@OlegValter Actually one of the questions is not about Spreadsheet Service [Google Apps Script]...
0
Q: Using service key for SpreadsheetService authentication and getting Internal Server Error when trying to get the feed

bostI'm working with SpreadsheetService and I'm trying to get the feed from the spreadsheets URL (https://spreadsheets.google.com/feeds/spreadsheets/private/full). I'm doing the authentication using a service key. Seems like the authentication is working, but when I'm trying to get the feed I'm getti...

 
@Rubén yep, this one is simply about the Sheets API
 
It's either about (Sheets API v4)
It's about (Sheets API v3)
 
@Rubén and a class (?) SpreadsheetService. Is this a library for Java?
 
5:11 AM
Ha! wiki was edited two years ago
@OlegValter I didn't reviewed so deeply the question. It's better to ask to the OP
 
@Rubén there is an interesting history of the wiki
 
@OlegValter It might be about the Google Data API
in other words, it's not about the Sheets API v3 either v4 either GAS
 
@Rubén hm, mystery solved, the question is about indeed. It is about Java client library for the Sheets API
in any case, it is certainly not about "create, access, and modify Google Sheets files via Google apps scripts". So what do you think about the tag itself? I suggest we make it a synonym of google sheets. Its whole premise is covered by +
 
@OlegValter Good.
 
Thanks, done: https://stackoverflow.com/tags/google-sheets/synonyms
Everyone - voting needed (4 more people to go)
 
5:21 AM
@OlegValter OK. I think that nobody will complain
 
@RubĂ©n perfect (also adding required tags) 👍
 
6:04 AM
@OlegValter Why not just remove it from those two questions? And let the tag burn itself. Clearly no one is using it to refer to apps script? @Rubén Your thoughts?
 
@TheMaster we can, I am good either way. @Rubén?
 
6:16 AM
@TheMaster btw, I've started drafting up a meta Q&A for policy on tagging GAS - probably will take a while, I want to research other discussions, and they are, well, extensive
 
@OlegValter Good. I think focusing on one issue per question will be better instead of full meta on all policies. Like 1 issue per question and after consensus on all questions , a full meta question with links to all such questions.
 
@TheMaster Agreed 👍 If so, how about we can start doing this in parallel? I will still want to provide input on all, so will start drafting all regardless, but well can introduce a policy :)
 
6:33 AM
@OlegValter Sure. But I think the general meta should come after at least 2-3 individual questions: like, " Should [gas]+[triggers] be enough?", "Should the general approach be combined or builder strategy on tags"? Something like that: highly focussed.
 
@TheMaster huh? I do not disagree - I suggest we split the policy between us, so everyone will make a meta question, and others will participate as answerers, and vice versa. Not a week in, and the community established voting and peer review :)
 
@OlegValter Great.Shall I bring up the triggers issue first?
 
@TheMaster glad you agree - and I would like to start with services in the meantime. We also have libraries and formulas. And probably a lot more - do you know of something else?
 
@OlegValter I went ahead and removed it from those two questions. The first one was not about apps script anyway. With only one question, I removed it and downvoted the synonym. @Rubén Consider downvoting too. is also a ambiguous term for , when there are other spreadsheets involved like excel.
2
 
@TheMaster 👍 oh, you found the - I missed it
 
6:42 AM
@OlegValter @tehhowch was very good at it with tags. I got it from him.
 
@TheMaster was? Funny thing - I just finished collecting these for tag wiki (another "fun" tag to work with - previous version was basically a list of names with no distinction between deprecated, renamed and used. And this version is still subpar - need to move all this info to correct services, platforms and products ) and it completely slipped my mind - should do less tagging at 6AM
 
@OlegValter He isn't that active in the community anymore.
@OlegValter Nice job.
@CameronRoberts Welcome!
 
@TheMaster thanks, it was tedious as hell ( the depths of "everyone for themselves" in these tags are truly horrifying - Cloud Platform folks are simply decided "screw the -api convention" )
@TheMaster too bad, it is nice have invested people around.. They are still active, did something happen, or just moved on?
 
7:06 AM
@OlegValter :)
@OlegValter Don't know. But I think He already had a SO account or this was a alias. He had expertise from day1. He still answers questions rarely.
 
@TheMaster hm, if nothing happened, why don't we invite them in? Can ping
 
@OlegValter I did invite him just now. Technically we can invite everyone involved in this tag. Also voting should happen in a separate room with all top guys to bronze guys invited to only say yay/nay with the discussion meta question link at the top
2
 
@TheMaster I would hold our horses on that - let's enjoy the benefit of voting on 5-10 people for a bit, and grow slowly :) Re:voting - agreed. Actually, I am thinking about a bot as well (but that's for a later time, or a vacation)
 
7:26 AM
Good morning!
 
@OlegValter done!
 
@RafaGuillermo good morning!
 
and good morning :-)
 
@OlegValter I'm already past suspecting you are 😉
 
@ziganotschka stop, we reevaluated for now :) And good morning!
 
7:30 AM
aaah... ok... going through the rest of the messages now
 
@ziganotschka no worries - given the amount of active discussions - probably worth going from newest to oldest instead :)
 
That's a smart approach :-)
 
@ziganotschka :) Btw, the transcript actually can help (at least I try to pin important messages - and apologize if something went under wraps)
 
Good afternoon!
 
@Tanaike Good afternoon :)
 
7:41 AM
@RafaGuillermo Good afternoon!
 
@Tanaike good afternoon!
 
@OlegValter good afternoon!
 
Good afternoon @Tanaike and thanks @OlegValter!
 
@ziganotschka good afternoon!
 
8:01 AM
@OlegValter I highly doubt many people will show up than who already are here. But it gives them a fair chance to participate. For eg, if I was asked a opinion before creating or , I would've objected. I really think we should invite everyone. But it's highly unlikely many would participate or vote. We would probably only have us 5.
3
@ziganotschka if you can and agree with the discussion, consider downvoting it instead , so that the tag may be destroyed.
 
@TheMaster sure, I did not mean to argue for isolation :) re:these tags - I agree, that's exactly why it is cool that we now can reach a consensus before proceeding with something. When I see someone active in a tag who wasn't discussed before, I send the invite
@ziganotschka 👍
 
@OlegValter 👍
 
@TheMaster 👍
 
@OlegValter About your tag wiki edits, I think usage guidelines should only be in excerpts and usage guidelines should not be in the wiki.
 
@TheMaster I follow this when adding guidance: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/318337/…
@TheMaster I would go for the excerpt, but it is cluttered and disallows markdown. If we will have an better option sometime in the future I would say go for it, but as it stands now I prefer basically duplicating usage guidelines (+most of the time I add extra info there, well, try to at least)
on the side note, @TheMaster - there is something wrong going on with this question :)
 
8:22 AM
@OlegValter I think * Think of it as a sales pitch: in a room full of tags screaming “pick me!”, what would convince a question asker to select your tag?* only refers to the excerpt. In any case, I took a loot at famous tags and their wiki does include guidelines as well.
 
@TheMaster apologies, I meant this point specifically: "Provide basic guidance on when to use the tag. In other words, what kinds of questions should have this tag? Tags only exist as ways of organizing questions, so if we don’t provide proper guidance on which questions need this tag, they won’t get tagged at all, rendering the tag excerpt moot. Think of it as a sales pitch: in a room full of tags screaming “pick me!”, what would convince a question asker to select your tag?"
 
@OlegValter Yes. That's the line I was quoting as well
@OlegValter ?
 
@TheMaster it is revised to exclude all it was initially about, I passed by and since you also commented, could not help but post here
 
@TheMaster Yes, makes sense
 
@OlegValter Didn't notice it. Maybe op decided to change the question altogether to open the question?
 
8:28 AM
@TheMaster that's because the author of the post uses the term "excerpt" and "wiki" interchangably for some reason. I always considered it to be about the wiki, though
 
@ziganotschka 👍
 
@ziganotschka 👍
@TheMaster also JavaScript wiki
 
@OlegValter I mean "in context", where will all tags compete to say "Pick me, pick me"? Only the excerpt will be displayed when all tags are shown.
@OlegValter in both cases, the usage guideline is in the middle or the end. Wiki starts with what the tag is and it's history.
 
@TheMaster I apologize, I may be very bad in putting my thoughts into words - I meant that the author cited Jeff, who in his blogpost wrote about excerpts when
@TheMaster I try to start with at least a short "about" now - in any case, I agree with you on that and would gladly move that section further down when suggesting the tag edits. Most of the tags I worked on up until now either did not have wikis or had a poor one, or lacked guidance, so I tried to fix that (in fact, the whole idea of the meta post grew out of it). Now we have the manpower to strive for excellence :)
@TheMaster I apologize, I may be very bad in putting my thoughts into words - I meant that the author cited Jeff, who in his blogpost wrote about excerpts, but the author of the answer mentioned this in the context of wikis "what a good tag wiki should contain. In particular". I liked it and so started to implement something similar
and I apologize for the duplication of the messages, damn this 2 minute restriction on edits and deletion...
@TheMaster also, in favour of your position: Java does not have such a section
 
I'm away from here and I will come back after a work.
 
8:48 AM
@Tanaike have a nice day ahead!
 
@OlegValter I'm not strong about this position. I just think wiki won't be read when using tags and will be read when using excerpts
 
@TheMaster that brings us to question if anyone reads the wiki :) I am not either about mine, just try to provide as much context as I can to my explain my reasoning, you might've noticed I do not tend to defend mine at all costs
@TheMaster I rolled it back and tried to provide some guidance, thanks for checking up on it. I even think that if it had any research effort it is an interesting question to answer (albeit with little practical significance outside of "what if" scenario)
@TheMaster also without usage: C#, COBOL, Haskell, Smalltalk, Kotlin, TypeScript, LISP
@TheMaster With: perl (sort of), NodeJS, Python
 
9:04 AM
@OlegValter 👍
 
Also without: Go and our GAS
 
9:35 AM
@TheMaster I agree with this. It's better to implement important information also in the tag description and not rely on every user reading the wiki.
2
 
@ziganotschka note that I all for making the tag usage guidance available in the excerpt (usually in the condensed form). Although I do put the tag names there due to lack of markdown ( but can if we decide that it is better that way )
 
10:28 AM
The triggers issue is created. Feel free to directly edit the question and please comment and answer. Thank you.
0
Q: Should [google-apps-script-simple-triggers] and [gs-installable-triggers] be scrapped in favor of [google-apps-script]+[triggers]?

TheMasterGoogle apps script is a scripting language based on JavaScript to automate Google products like Google sheets. The script can be triggered in various ways based on time of day, a edit in a spreadsheet, opening the spreadsheet, etc. The difference between "simple" google-apps-script-simple-trig...

2
 
10:41 AM
@OlegValter It has only 1 watcher ( probably you). So someone wanting to follow only installable triggers are clearly alone( literally alone :))
 
@TheMaster oh, sorry, I haven't got a time to look at your question yet (will get some time to spare in a couple of hours)
@TheMaster yes, that's me :) I think I watch nearly everything GAS
@TheMaster side note - I think you should use a more representative question than stackoverflow.com/questions/60257557/triggers-are-not-firing - it was missed due to failing to provide main GAS tag
 
@OlegValter Actually that's my point. This is not a standalone tag, which is one of the criteria for meta tags.
 
@OlegValter I think that's exactly the point being made though
 
hm, I am not sure about this, see relative data for this tag - existence of this tag does not make it more or less likely to be answered, in terms of how many unanswered questions we have, it falls in line with ~30%:
4 Last 7 Days 25% unanswered
16 Last 30 Days 18.8% unanswered
136 All Time 30.1% unanswered

And the data on [tag:google-apps-script]
195 Last 7 Days 46.7% unanswered
807 Last 30 Days 41.5% unanswered
33,252 All Time 36.1% unanswered
 
@OlegValter Well, I for one wouldn't have seen any of those questions if it weren't for them also being tagged with
 
10:53 AM
@OlegValter I don't think you understand my point. With only this tag, the question is hidden from experts in . It has all characteristics of a builder tag but with extra length.
 
The tag being so specific like it is in its current form means that users are more likely to think that the gas-specific trigger tag is sufficient on its own
 
@OlegValter Could you guys @RafaGuillermo comment on the meta post instead. Nobody will find this discussion again, if we talk here. @OlegValter It doesn't matter if your comment humiliates my theory.
 
@TheMaster I apologize, I think I am badly wording my concern - I am not against the point, I just think that the reasons differ, give me a sec to clarify
 
@TheMaster Yeah was just constructing a comment, posted now
 
@OlegValter Existence of the tag hides questions from potential answerers, because it is not a standalone tag
@RafaGuillermo Thank you
 
11:00 AM
@TheMaster I do not want to comment on meta right now exactly for that reason :) I want to do a preliminary discussion before posting anything (especially since my point was about amending your point)
@RafaGuillermo 👍
 
@OlegValter As you wish :)
@Tanaike Consider sharing the views you shared yesterday in the question below. @ziganotschka @Rubén @RafaGuillermo @OlegValter
2
Q: Should [google-apps-script-simple-triggers] and [gs-installable-triggers] be scrapped in favor of [google-apps-script]+[triggers]?

TheMasterGoogle apps script is a scripting language based on JavaScript to automate Google products like Google sheets. The script can be triggered in various ways based on time of day, a edit in a spreadsheet, opening the spreadsheet, etc. The difference between "simple" google-apps-script-simple-trig...

3
 
@TheMaster I think it is better not to give extra reasons to dismiss the idea ourselves :) Besides, I agreed on + , so me saying publicly that I disagree with the analysis will certainly won't help
 
@OlegValter I see. A co-ordinated effort. Alright :)
 
@OlegValter 5-pronged attack!
 
@TheMaster yep :) So, what I was saying: The fact alone that the question was missed does not make it a good example of the problem because it falls under general margin of unseen questions in (let's use it as a comparison target). That being said [next goes the part that I do want to post publicly]: the tag was used in violation of a best practice to be tagged with GAS first because it contains google-apps-script-* prefix, and that is exactly what is the issue
@RafaGuillermo :)
 
11:16 AM
@OlegValter I see. I edited the question to make it more clear. The question only had 5 views at the time of writing the post(one of them was me). I can guarantee no post tagged with [google-apps-script] will have such less views. "Unanswered" is different from "unseen"
 
@TheMaster thank you, this I can agree with - lack of the main language tag caused it be seen much less than usuall, that is true. And my bad on "unseen" above - indeed I meant "unanswered"
 
@OlegValter If this tag didn't exist, then OP would've surely tagged google-apps-script and may be added triggers as well
 
@TheMaster I agree (on that point I do not disagree with you in any way) - given the lack of such combined tag, the question would either be tagged by language tag and, optionally, by triggers tag
 
@OlegValter In any case, I couldn't find similar questions such as that. But with only around 100 questions(80% retagged from google-apps-script watchers) in total, it is a example of what might come.
 
one question, just to be sure we are on the same page: what would you say if we added and put and and doGet and doPost there? Like a - we agreed that it is specific enough to warrant a short prefix. If you do, I think I am ready to make a proposal, if you don't, we can discuss and I'll think on the matter more
 
11:29 AM
@OlegValter Don't think it's warranted either. I'm sure we can add gas trigger related wiki in
@OlegValter The same logic in question applies: [google-apps-script]+[triggers] is perfectly valid instead of [google-apps-script] and [gas-triggers]. I mean what's the point. I know you're interested in separate wiki, but that shouldn't be the only motivating factor for segregating questions
 
@TheMaster understood - well, as I mentioned before, I can agree with it if we add the info to triggers
@TheMaster nah, I would not die over keeping wikis separate :)
 
@OlegValter Why not just add it now? I'll approve.
 
@TheMaster huh, good point - @RafaGuillermo @ziganotschka @Tanaike @Rubén, are there any reservations about that?
 
@OlegValter None at all. I'd even link to the official docs on triggers there
 
@RafaGuillermo thanks! re:docs - always do :)
 
11:41 AM
@OlegValter It's certainly a good idea to add it to the wiki.
 
@TheMaster gave a short reaction, longer one a bit later (with the tag wiki update - simple triggers info needs a revamp, I only touched installable before. Plus needs to be merged and made more condenced)
@ziganotschka 👍 I will start then, and ping here once done, as usual, if by that time there are reservations, and we reach another decision it won't hurt
 
@OlegValter More in general. Would it not be more more consistent to have either and OR + and + ?
 
@ziganotschka that one is on you @TheMaster :) Re:web-app - the discussion should be in transcript somewhere...
 
@ziganotschka I'm not against that idea either. But I believe warrants a separate tag due to it's unique nature, templates, Google injected scripts etc. Once again, I'm not against doing away with if the community desires it. But it needs sufficient discussion. On that note, should be ok, if someone can point a valid reason ( except the need for wiki )
@OlegValter
 
@TheMaster @ziganotschka need for wiki is covered by including a section in , so I am ok with that. I do not see a valid point for [gas:triggers]
 
11:56 AM
@OlegValter It seems triggers wiki currently includes only sql. But related tags show they're used with c#, JavaScript etc.... Should we invite the top answrers there for a chat? Or do we go ahead with wiki editing?
 
@TheMaster I think we can go ahead - I just scrolled down a few of them and seen quite a few tagged with gas. Since there was no attempt on our side to include info in the tag - it just contains info on SQL
although, is synonymized with it
 
@OlegValter ok. But it'll be better to be brief on our part, if others like js, c# want their share
 
@TheMaster yes, I agree, that is why I want to take time to edit and mentioned that it must be condensed - we should not take over
 
@OlegValter we can synonimize too, if needed ;)
 
@TheMaster I just wanted to post that idea :) And I ran out of stars for today, btw
 
12:01 PM
@OlegValter oh. What's the limit?
 
@OlegValter "that one is on you" means that I should mention it as a comment on the Meta issue?
 
@TheMaster give me a sec, I think it counts as comment vote
 
@ziganotschka no he meant me. We had a similar discussion before. Search this room
 
@ziganotschka no, I referred to TheMaster as I already asked about it before :)
 
Ahh. ok!
 
12:16 PM
Good evening!
 
@Tanaike good evening!
 
@TheMaster Thank you. I agree with and .
@OlegValter Good evening!
 
@TheMaster btw, "Triggers are rules, that when they evaluate to true perform one or more actions." from except is certainly not sql-specific :) I would also add Azure Functions and Google Cloud Functions while I am at it (also, it save us from unwarranted criticism that we are trying to take over something)
@Tanaike I literally can't star anymore for today - 👍
 
@OlegValter Oh!
 
@Tanaike Consider posting a answer here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/399489/…
@Tanaike Your answer would be more valuable
 
12:31 PM
@TheMaster oh, I can still pin, which is good. I need to spend some time reading chat faq.
 
@TheMaster Thank you. Can you give me a time to do? When I prepare the answer, I would like to post it.
2
 
12:51 PM
It is almost my bedtime. I’m going to bed. Good night!
 
@Tanaike good night, see you!
 
1:17 PM
@Tanaike Sure. And Thanks!
@OlegValter Honestly I don't know the difference. Sometimes star is hollow, sometimes solid/filled. It says pin at times too....
 
@TheMaster oh, there are several meta posts on that :) meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/338383/…
 
1:41 PM
@OlegValter Ahhh.. Thank you. Wonder why just a pin icon won't work. Bad design decision
 
@TheMaster well, someone thought it is a good idea to fix input area size to 84px :)
 
Hi
I disagree with +
Did you know that there is already a discussion / about ?
20
Q: Should the [triggers] tag exist?

ScootsI recently came across the triggers tag while reviewing suggested edits. Somebody wanted to add database-triggers to a question. Thinking I'd spotted something that should probably be setup as a tag synonym, I had a closer look, and triggers seems to be horribly ambiguous. From just the first p...

 
@Rubén oh, that's a good find, btw
 
@OlegValter :)
 
2:07 PM
@TheMaster The downvoting button throw and error... anyway, the synonym was rejected :)
 
@Rubén that said, the reasoning of supporters is a bit different as I see it - they are not against the tag per se, but would like to see a more specific tag. Which brings us back to . Although we still can make a case here - if it has already been debated than it is not so clear cut... I will expand upon it later
 
@OlegValter I think that we should prioritize other things than I don't see any harm on having the simple / installable tags that we already have.
What about this
3
Q: Utilizing Chat to Better Support Troubleshooting Questions

Robert HarveyLike them or not, troubleshooting questions are here to stay. They comprise the overwhelming bulk of questions asked at Stack Overflow. In this post, I propose some simple changes to the way the commenting system and the chat system interact to better support these questions. Troubleshooting qu...

 
@Rubén see the earlier discussion on policies - it is the first of the policy quesions that are going in parallel, it's not that it reprioritized. I think the discussion will set pace steadily for it, there is nothing time-pressing in discussing it
 
@OlegValter What earlier discussions on policies?
 
@Rubén I've seen that one, but I am not sure if I can read, discuss and work that much :) But it caught my eye, so I will certainly read through it
@Rubén oh, give me a sec
 
2:20 PM
@OlegValter The feature request doesn't imply that we should meet some kind of quota
Even it doesn't imply that supporters use it.
 
@Rubén I apologize, but I think we have a misunderstanding here - I just meant that I cna only read it later :)
 
@OlegValter I think that is too early to discuss specific "policies" for . Maybe when this chat room have ~20 regulars
 
@Rubén huh, why not? The earlier we do, the easir it will be going forward
 
@OlegValter Just follow the current SO policies
@OlegValter Policies wrote / discussed by a very small group doesn't look like a policy to me
 
@Rubén who knows which one is the policy, though :) Even the -vba group of tags can't decide if the battle is won
 
2:24 PM
@OlegValter Exactly
Maybe you could write a "manifesto"
 
@Rubén but what if they are defined by those who have expertise in the matter they discuss? Re:number of people - that what meta posts are fow - what happens in chat is just a preliminary discussion
@Rubén that is what we are trying to acheive here, are we not? I did not yet finish the timeline of how the "policy" questions came to be (I think you were away during the last part - have you seen about a meta post on policies and a decision to split into multiple discussions? To finally combine them into a manifesto of sorts)
 
@OlegValter Please don't expect that I will scroll the whole chat every day
 
@Rubén that's exactly why I tried to add a timeline :) I understand you perfectly. But there is also the transcript, and anyone here can always ask for recap
 
@OlegValter Timeline good, write it in the chat, bad (it will require that at sometime someone have to scroll the chat to find them
 
@Rubén yes, sure, believe me, I am scared now to go away from chat even for a while :) Last time it took me 20 minutes to address the discussion that took place before (or to even greet anyone)
 
2:31 PM
@OlegValter Use the chat for what the chat is ... to chat
You don't chat with people that is not paying attention, right?
 
@Rubén sorry, could not understand you here?
 
by the way... I'm going afk
 
to everyone: the dreaded moment finally came - where do we want to track the important points? Chat is indeed somewhat unmanagable
 
@Rubén I added a answer there. It wasn't even a request by OP's own words because it fails spectacularly on 4 criteria, but it's just a discussion- I believe the brass finally went with burninating the combined tag instead.
1
A: Should the [triggers] tag exist?

TheMastertriggers excerpt states: Triggers are rules, that when they evaluate to true perform one or more actions Given that definition, The tag is valid with all of those related tags in your question. If there are rules, that evaluate to true, then more actions are performed. It's not ambiguos at al...

2
 
2:53 PM
@Rubén There are transcripts and highlights. That should be enough IMHO. All policy proposals will be discussed in meta publicly and then we're deciding vote in a separate room by inviting all important answrers and questioners in the tag
3
 
@TheMaster true - too bad I could not finish updating @Rubén on what happened :) I think it is asking a bit too much to expect everything to be perfect, a month ago there was nothing like that (or am I missing here). Doing everything by ourselves without the discussion is what usually gets us in the mess of tag/policy/you name it discussions years later
@Rubén and if Tanaike's data is correct (as I am sure theirs is) without properly policies in place to discuss we will soon start to drown (I think we already are). I agree though that there is always a room for improvement. @TheMaster's idea behind a separate room for fixing discussed proposals and voting on them looks very promising. Meta posts ensure publicity. And here we can address our individual concerns to look like the uniified front when one of us makes a proposal
 
3:14 PM
@OlegValter In addition, I tagged @Rubén on all important posts for his attention.
 
3:26 PM
@TheMaster thank you for doing that ( I do remember you adding @s ) - the only issue is once you open notifications, they are read all at once. But they stay there in order, so that's not a big deal (unless you are a mod with > 600 pings per day)
 
@TheMaster Thank you. Please bear in mind that now my SE inbox is flooded. I might not be able to review all them and it might take a while to me to answer to some of them.
 
maybe we should get a Trello board (or your poison of choice) for that matter (please don't kill me :))?
 
@Rubén Thank you for your time and work.
@OlegValter I'm not comfortable with discussing SO matters outside SO. Also, it'll be hard to get other questioners, answerers on board. Requiring login would be huge block
 
3:42 PM
@TheMaster no problem (I think I am finally getting a hang of it with the chat), just pitching since Rubén complained about the lengthy discussion and poor visibility of important points (they are not the only ones who are concerned - afaik requests for better chat experience pop up from time to time for quite a while, but it does not seem like a priority to SE). That said, we do have 124
starred messages - I will go and clean up a little (at least unpin some)
another viable solution is doing what other chat rooms do - add a bot here with at least an ability to answer "what are the most important topics from today" (counted by number of stars, for example, I don't know, it requires a more thorough analysis) and "are there any pending votes?" / "are there new meta discussions started by members of the chat?" (not in that horrific form, ofc), etc. I could dedicate some of my free time to that ( although I do need to tend to what I already promised to )
 
4:33 PM
@TheMaster @Rubén - btw, I should remind that in case of severe disagreement we can simply vote. And we can wait for more people to join if either side feels underrepresented too. @Rubén, I am worried that the discussion starts to heat up if only handled in public, and it certainly does not help our cause
 
@OlegValter Pinned messages will be automatically unpinned as per your star question
 
@TheMaster thank you for explaining - I did notice that, but did not figure out they are not moved to "show all" ( I was worried that the old ones get unpinned, so I removed pinned duplicates only )
 
@OlegValter This is actually a internal issue. There is no quantifiable risk here. We're the ones who are gonna tag/retag. Public perception doesn't have a value, as far as this question is concerned.
@OlegValter If we have interaction with any other tags like [gas], then public perception would be important
 
@TheMaster if you say so :) Re:public - I mentioned it in regards to tag which will likely require interaction with sql folks at some point
 
@OlegValter If they thought this was an issue, they would've changed the excerpt a long time ago. Use only with [sql] or something like that.
 
4:42 PM
@TheMaster I am not arguing with you :) In fact my remarks address @Rubén more - we could make things look cleaner before publicly disagreeing in our midst. No worries, though, if you think that's ok. Re:tag wiki - I agree, I do not think there will be an issue, the tag wiki also looks like it has room for splitting it into sections
In fact, I am continuing to add info as we speak
 
@OlegValter I'm not arguing with you either ;)
 
@TheMaster good to know :) Abd apologies for constant alvalanche of clarifications - I am always unsure that I worded my points even remotely appropriately / articulated enough [off-topic: ...and now I reached the voting limit on comments, votes per day next]
 
@OlegValter I'm sorry. I don't understand this as so far all our discussions have being done publicly (there aren't private chat rooms in SO / SE)
@TheMaster I agree
 
4:58 PM
@Rubén yes, I know, but to go here someone actually has to express interest in reading the chat :) While Q&A form is better for serving prepared, discussed, reviewed and chatted (if an option) versions, like proposals, that everyone can vote upon. But from what I've seen so far (this is a general observation) it usually devolves into "discussion on the spot" with hundreds of comments, answers, etc.
...The chat transcript will be forgotten a week from now, meta post can suddenly come alive years from now. That said, please do not mind it too much, it is just my concern
 
So far I think that the "public" interactions are being done very civilized , nobody have offended the other, calling names, pointing fingers... and ever better nobody is reverting the changes done by the other
 
@Rubén I hope it will never get to that :) And I did not mean to insinuate anything, I apologize if something came off as that
 
BTW usually before editing a Q I check if it was already modified and do my best to avoid an "edit war"
 
@Rubén - on the bright side - already included the tags into the question, thank you! API tags a bit later, as I have a huge draft that I want to finish and publish that concerns rethinking naming conventions about Google APIs and products. I.e. It was decided to name APIs without *-api where they should've been made so (e.g. BigQuery API is for no reason). Btw, what are your thoughts on this? If others have them as well I would appreciate it @Tanaike @ziganotschka @RafaGuillermo
@Rubén hm, did I do something?
 
@OlegValter Yes. You said that "if discussions starts heats up"...
usually an edit war leads to disscutions heats up
 
5:09 PM
@Rubén ah, now it is clear :) No, I did not mean that. I meant that discussions spanning several Q&As with multiple comments looked heated to me. The term "heated" sounds neutral to me, so maybe I used it incorrectly
 
@OlegValter human language is ambiguous.. and jumping from one context to another usually doesn't help.
If there is something really important to talk about it's better to "schedule a session" (like for the next ten minutes nobody will see their WhatsApp)
 
@Rubén hm, I like the idea. Do you mean room events?
 
@OlegValter 👍
@RubĂ©n 👍
 
@Rubén @TheMaster 👍 Do we have one we want to schedule or just keep in mind?
 
@OlegValter I like voting events
@OlegValter For triggers, I suggest a voting event. Preferably after a minimum of 3 days of discussion.
 
5:21 PM
@TheMaster agreed, maybe in like 5, just to be sure? @Rubén @Tanaike @RafaGuillermo @ziganotschka?
 
@OlegValter 👍
 
@OlegValter I will be great to have events for voting or just to learn of each other
 
@Rubén agreed, never used the feature before, so also curios how it will work :) Let's wait on the input of those left and have a first vote on triggers in 5 days ( I hope I will finish the tag wiki today )
 
@OlegValter and event could be spontaneous ... just declared it...
"Now that all are here at the same time let stay here for the next 30 minutes to..."
 
5:36 PM
@Rubén that was just another refertence to a planned one :) Oh, nearly forgot to pin the messages on voting an events. Re:declarative - sure, I am in ( don't know whether we can have a full session at any time though )
 

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