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1:10 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Mark
Classical computers can work without a clock. Early designs were clocked because it's simpler, and current designs are clocked because that's what everyone has experience designing. — Mark 12 mins ago
 
 
2 hours later…
2:50 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by guest
-1) "|x><y|*A" how this become (<y|A)*|x> and not |x>(<y|*A) if "Yes, you calculate from right to left"? -2) Do you know any software for that "convert Dirac to matrices and vectors" and back? — guest 9 mins ago
 
 
8 hours later…
10:20 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by glS
$\sigma_y$ corresponds to circular polarization of the underlying EM field — glS 7 secs ago
 
 
1 hour later…
11:35 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by glS
I don't quite understand what you are saying. What does "fewer distinct circuits than distinct oracles" mean? There is only one oracle, encoding the function that checks whether a given input is the one you are looking for. Also, if I understand you, you are counting the process of loading a classical database into a quantum state as part of the cost, correct? Also, I guess $n$ is the number of elements in the database here. Why should building the oracle require a number of operations scaling with $n$? $n$ elements should correspond to $O(\log_2 n)$ qubits on which it would have to act — glS 3 mins ago
 
12:00 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by glS
there are also protocols in which dissipation is used to generate states (by having the target as fixed orbit of a dissipative operation), although I can't find a reference for these works atm — glS 11 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by glS
it's a good question, but I'm not sure there are good non-opinion-based answers to it. One the one hand, I would say it's natural to consider unitary dynamics, as non-unitary maps always come with some noise attached, and if you want to perform controlled computations, you ideally want as little noise as possible. On the other hand, people do essentially consider "open system dynamics" every time noise and error in a circuit are considered. Also, there are algorithms involving non-unitary operations (e.g. IIRC HHL2009 by Harrow et al. does). — glS 12 mins ago
 
12:25 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Mark S
What’s the question? — Mark S 4 mins ago
 
12:40 PM
@Shree I would like to reproduce the Meta SO Comment archive on MSE
Is that possible with Boson, and if so, how?
 
@Magisch I am not so much familiar with Bason. It's not running on main room(SoBotic). I only know some command of Boson. Bhargav is not pingable here. I ping him about this message on main room.
 
Thank you
 
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Mithrandir24601
So, given the above comments, what do you mean by authenticated channel? And given such a channel, why wouldn't Eve be able to perform a QFT in this case? Are you asking if there are definitions of authenticated channels where it is/isn't possible for an Eve to perform unitary transformations, or if all authenticated channels allow this, or is this a more general question about what's generally taken to be acceptable for Eve to do given a certain authenticated channel? — Mithrandir24601 ♦ 18 mins ago
 
1:40 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by AJ Rasmusson
Oh yes, thank you! I forgot about circular polarization. I will edit my response. — AJ Rasmusson 13 mins ago
 
 
1 hour later…
2:55 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by diemilio
I did find a book last night that explicitly mentions that this notation should be avoided to prevent this precise confusion I am talking about (Quantum Computing for Everyone, by Chris Bernhardt). In the chapter about quantum gates, the output of 2-bit gates is represented as a single state rather than 2 separate qubits. — diemilio 20 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by diemilio
Thanks Mark S. I see your point about having H gates in front of the CNOT to align the qubits in the Hadamard basis; however, my question is more about the general notation used for arbitrary input/output qubits. Maybe there is something I am missing about how to read the output. My understanding is that if the 2 output qubits are $|π‘₯⟩$ and $|π‘₯βŠ•π‘¦βŸ©$ as shown above, the way to interpret the state would be: $|π‘₯βŸ©βŠ—|π‘₯βŠ•π‘¦βŸ©$. This obviously incorrect for general qubits, because they could potentially be entangled, and therefore can't be expressed as the tensor product of 2 separate qubits. — diemilio 20 mins ago
 
 
1 hour later…
4:10 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Mark S
If $|x\rangle$ was not in a superposition and was equal to, say, $|0\rangle$ or $|1\rangle$, would they be entangled after the application of the CNOT gate? — Mark S 8 mins ago
 
@Boson alive
 
Yes, I'm alive
 
@Boson list
 
QuantumComputing_Comments;MSO_Comments
 
@Boson quota
@Boson track meta comments 1500 -p ONE_BOX -n MSE_Comments
 
4:12 PM
Tracking comments on meta as directed in SOBotics Workshop
New tracker started: MSE_Comments
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Script47
'If you notice someone who is using the wrong pronouns, we encourage you to gently correct them in a comment.' - Would this not increase noise? Is there no other way to handle it? — Script47 7 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by mkt
Like many others, I was initially pleased by this post and optimistic about what would follow. The lack of follow-up so far has been very disappointing and I've retracted my upvote. I hope this is fixed soon, but your company's conduct has been atrocious and I'm not sure I should I expect it. — mkt 6 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Russell McMahon
@mason You may have heard the old "joke" - "What do you call a person who speaks 3 /2 /1 languages" -> trilingual/bilingual/American. It's not a matter of SPEAKING their languages but of understanding that not everyone speaks Fort-Worth Texan, or Texan, or even USAian. | Your "... there isn't discrimination..." is NOT what I'm saying - it appears to be an aide to identify people to drive off. And your text "from "That says to me ..." on is about what I should have expected. If you (re?)read the "be nice" policy you might find that what "That says to me..." isn't what the policy says. — Russell McMahon 7 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Joe
Perhaps your objection is to the factoid slideshow as a source? If so, then perhaps that deserves more of the attention here? — Joe 8 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Joe
It seems to me though, that the question at hand here is whether the original question was a valid question for the site. As such, it's a question for the site itself, not for SE generally? — Joe 9 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Bart
I kinda hope the answer involves an actual stick ... — Bart 16 mins ago
 
4:35 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by glS
great answer, thanks! — glS 22 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Monica Cellio
@Xirema does my edit make it better? — Monica Cellio 43 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Andras Deak
I'm saying your stance is not in harmony with the CoC. You're implying that "he" and "she" should be respected, but "ze" (etc.) not, and people who object to being addressed as "they" (there are many, I've heard) should not. Much subtler things are seen as misgendering by many. — Andras Deak 58 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe the transgirl
Having used the title on SO for pronouns for a really long time, I can say with confidence that most users don't check it at all. — Zoe the transgirl 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by nitsua60
[continuing Cesar's last comment] ...just as you would any time you see any user acting in what appears--to you--to be bad faith. — nitsua60 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by gerrit
@Raedwald Moderators have their own set of rules on top of the Code of Conduct. — gerrit 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Raedwald
The unfamiliar cases, rather than trolls, could be troublesome. — Raedwald 2 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rjzii
This is an important question! Most sites on the network have prohibitions against greetings and the like. There's not much of a reason to state your pronouns when asking about Boost Templates or the like. Likewise, the answer can likely be written without addressing the OP directly. — rjzii 2 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Meeep
@Andras There's no need to use unique pronouns in order to avoid misgendering someone. For example, if someone states that he is male, use "he". If someone states that she is female, use "she". In any other case, it would be correct in English to use "they", since it's a gender neutral pronoun. There are also many other ways to speak in English in case of unknown/unclear gender, so a person should be able to choose how they want to speak, as long as they're not intentionally misgendering someone (like using "he" about someone who says she's a woman). — Meeep 3 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
For other languages, please check the answer to: "How does this apply to languages other than English?". That may be a good option/solution as we discuss with mods of those languages when we do that. — Cesar M ♦ 3 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Monica Cellio
@Wrigglenite it is, though. I avoid number landmines too. We almost never need specific third-person pronouns on SE, because we shouldn't be talking about other users most of the time. When we're talking with people, it's second-person. — Monica Cellio 4 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Goyo
I don't think I would be able to write as I naturally would while at the same time using words I am uncomfortable using. — Goyo 5 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Magisch
@Shog9 it's probably a good idea to move the comments to chat and lock this. It's going to be 200+ deep an hour or two later. — Magisch 6 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
If people are requesting things in bad faith, you are welcome to escalate to mods and mods can contact us CMs when in doubt too. — Cesar M ♦ 7 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Raedwald
Most users do not need to engage. Sometimes moderators must engage. — Raedwald 7 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user1725145
@Monica - the sentence that I quoted has huge implications for people who live or work with people who are sensitive about pronouns, in real life. Therefore, it is a very important freedom that SO appears to want to strike down. I think in the CoC, these 2 parts directly contradict each other. Do you feel like betting which one SE will choose to enforce? (By the way, like everyone, I was shocked at how they treated you - I hope you are recovering a bit now). — user1725145 8 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
@Zoethetransgirl if you would normally use he/she, then you must also use the correct pronouns. "Explicitly avoiding using someone’s pronouns because you are uncomfortable is a way of refusing to recognize their identity and is a violation of the Code of Conduct." So if you use he/she normally but when a they comes up you resort to name, that is explicitly avoiding. — Cesar M ♦ 9 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Jasper
@Joe Yes and no. I don't oppose to the sideshow as a source (even though finding a corroborating source definitely would improve it), which makes the answer fine. I do think that its use as a source reveals the flaw inherent in the question. Perhaps this isn't the right place to discuss the specifics of this one situation, though. — Jasper 9 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe the transgirl
For the record, I've only seen trolls use those (who, ironically, were or at least presented as cis, and multiple popping up around chat before the release of the CoC). They're also not pronouns - the two you mentioned are titles. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334900/…Zoe the transgirl 10 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Nathaniel
@ArtOfCode It'd be helpful for non-moderators to have access to this, so they can determine if they would be willing to become moderators in the first place. — Nathaniel 11 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Wrigglenite
The fact that you're calling it "avoiding pronoun landmines" makes it sound like it's not the way you would usually write. — Wrigglenite 11 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Turner
The compelled speech is in the blog "we want to make it clear that the Code of Conduct requires people to use the correct gender pronouns when someone shares their pronouns or makes them public" — Peter Turner 12 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Raedwald
"Using someone’s pronouns is a way of showing respect for them". I think you mean "Correctly using..."? — Raedwald 13 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Monica Cellio
@Xirema can you suggest a way for me to make it clearer? It's not a dog-whistle (and I don't like the kinds of people such a dog-whistle would attract). I just want to be allowed to write clearly without favoring or disfavoring any group. I respect all people's identities. — Monica Cellio 13 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Scott Hannen
@MonicaCellio - Apparently 'how you naturally write' is defined by someone else. — Scott Hannen 14 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Andras Deak
There are plenty of genders (or lack thereof) for which English doesn't have unique pronouns for. That's kind of the core of how this debate started. — Andras Deak 15 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Shog9
Comments here are gonna get craaaazy really fast - if you have a question, consider posting an answer here or separate question, so that we can gauge frequency and... Y'know... Expand the FAQ with frequent questions. — Shog9 ♦ 15 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by AProgrammer
Gender is part of some languages. The issue in those may go far beyong simply using additional pronouns. — AProgrammer 16 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Scott Hannen
Does this mean that someone other than me defines 'how I naturally write?' I'd argue that however I write is how I naturally write. — Scott Hannen 17 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Monica Cellio
@user1725145 I don't think so, since they're also allowing us to write as we normally do, which for some of us means avoiding pronoun landmines entirely. — Monica Cellio 18 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Xirema
I'm going to be honest: this phrase, "The new CoC allows me to not use those pronouns at all. Therefore, the reason for my firing does not apply." feels a little dogwhistle-y to me. I know from experience that it's very common for people who don't want to respect the identities of the people around them to very conspicuously (and it's always conspicuous) stop using pronouns at all when referring to those people, and they'll couch their decision with this kind of claim. — Xirema 18 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
@Script47 As for gently correcting people - that is related to known pronouns only. So, if you see someone referring to someone who is a she by he, you can gently correct them. That is fine. Your Highness is not a pronoun, it is a title. - As for edits, for past posts, you can fix it if you're fixing other things too, we are not discouraging edits, but you don't have to go out of your way to find posts from the past 11 years to edit either. — Cesar M ♦ 19 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user1725145
Are you really sure about that Monica? "Explicitly avoiding using someone’s pronouns because you are uncomfortable is a way of refusing to recognize their identity and is a violation of the Code of Conduct." appears to force you (or me) to use pronouns. Also, the part about not using language that might offend - that is an invitation to people are looking for reasons to be offended. Also, do we really believe that this CoC will be the end of the matter? Past experience in general shows that each barrier that is pushed back is just preparation for the next one. — user1725145 20 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Monica Cellio
@NathanOliver that's saying you can't pick and choose; you can't use "he" but refuse to use "xe". On the other hand, the key change here is that you can now write in a way that doesn't require any of those pronouns. (I'm actually fine with "xe" et al, but out of deference, I agreed not to use them.) — Monica Cellio 20 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Isaac Moses
I've seen many suggestions for how to write this requirement, and I think this is the best-formulated one I've seen. — Isaac Moses 22 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Jasper
@Joe No it's not. This one question initiated the situation, but I was hoping to find an existing answer on meta before I asked this. I want to know whether this type of Q/A pair is considered on topic or not and that can then indeed be applied to this question. (I'll admit that that one comment isn't entirely the same story, it is more about the very question.) — Jasper 23 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Taryn
@bart I will never give away my secrets — Taryn ♦ 24 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Monica Cellio
@Wrigglenite I normally write gender-neutral. For example, for a non-specific reference (like to a generic user) I don't use "they" -- used to use "he" but we know that's wrong and I don't do that now (and fix it when I come across old uses). On those rare occasions on SE when I need to refer to a specific person, I have until recently used "he" or "she" if I knew, but I was told in the TL discussion that that's discriminatory if I'm not going to use all the pronouns, so I agreed and said I wouldn't use any of them. We're only talking about singular gendered pronouns, not all of them. — Monica Cellio 25 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by ArtOfCode
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Nathaniel
If the stated pronoun is "they," it sounds like you will be required to use singular they. — Nathaniel 26 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Zoe the transgirl
What about using names even when prounouns are known? Assuming Monica's (since deleted?) answer on a different question is correct, the policy on names was vastly different. — Zoe the transgirl 28 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by NathanOliver
Are you sure you like this? Q: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )? Yes, if those are stated by the individual. and Q: If I’m uncomfortable with a particular pronoun, can I just avoid using it? We are asking everyone to use all stated pronouns as you would naturally write. Explicitly avoiding using someone’s pronouns because you are uncomfortable is a way of refusing to recognize their identity and is a violation of the Code of Conduct. seem to be forcing us — NathanOliver 29 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Monica Cellio
@JonH I am pointing out that the original reason does not apply, and so we should correct the error and get on with things. — Monica Cellio 30 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Wrigglenite
You normally don't use pronouns? At all? — Wrigglenite 31 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by kbelder
"Moving On" is a great response to all sorts of internal SE controversies. SE made that impossible this time through their actions. The difference, compared to all the other nonsense tempests in teapots that happen here, is that this time SE engaged in bullying. They went to the media and used their corporate weight to discredit Monica by impugning her reputation. It is and should remain a millstone around their neck until they undo the harm they inflicted. — kbelder 32 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by ArtOfCode
[ Boson ] New comment posted by JonH
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
I think there's some misunderstanding! You're always welcome to silently disengage if that's what feels correct for you. We actually often find disengaging is the best answer when you're in a situation that makes you uncomfortable. Just be certain you don't do harm when you disengage by making a statement that you can not or will not comply with their request. — Catija ♦ 36 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Pace
I think, from my reading of above, as long as you use usernames (and not pronouns) for everyone then that is fine. The concern is when you use pronouns for everyone you agree with and usernames for those you disagree with. I don't see "disallowing the use of the user name and instead mandating a pronoun". Instead I see, "You are not required to insert pronouns where you otherwise would not." — Pace 37 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by ChrisF
@Script47 There's always been a tension in the suggested edits workflow between people who think any change is a good change even if it leaves other things wrong and the rest of us who think you should try and fix everything. — ChrisF ♦ 40 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Magisch
It might be helpful to feature this and unfeature the podcast for now. — Magisch 41 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Script47
@HDE226868 previously (I believe it was a SO post) was edited to make the code more inclusive and there was a big debate on that and sadly it ended up on Twitter and the useless edit was accepted. But, in doing so it wasted loads of time. — Script47 43 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by gerrit
"I refuse to interact with gays" is a form of disengagement, but is certainly not nice. Disengagement is not always a friendly option in social relationships. — gerrit 43 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by HDE 226868
@Script47 I think Cesar's referring to doing so while you're in the process of writing the post or making another substantial edit - not editing posts purely to make language more inclusive. — HDE 226868 45 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Vogon Poet
Do you ever consider votes when you look at an answer? The answer may be "no" on sites with black-and-white answers however the majority of sites have responses with varying degrees of quality, which are put to a survey through voting. The vote asks every viewer, "Is this content on topic? Is this content useful? Is this content appropriate? Is this content clear? and Is this content well-researched? These are the survey questions every single SE vote, close vote, & flag vote is an answer to. SE is very much a survey. If you have ever voted on SE, you have completed a survey. — Vogon Poet 46 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Script47
'If you are writing or editing a post and can make it gender-inclusive without changing the meaning, you are encouraged to do so.' - Wouldn't this flood the queues with these sort of edits which isn't helpful unless you'd be picking up a shovel too. — Script47 48 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Goyo
@IEatBagels You missed the other half, You want to make money someone's got to do work somewhere. People have done a damn awesome unpaid work. — Goyo 49 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Nathan Merrill
"Explicitly avoiding using someone’s pronouns because you are uncomfortable is a way of refusing to recognize their identity and is a violation of the Code of Conduct." How are moderators supposed to tell whether or not a user is avoiding pronouns? — Nathan Merrill 50 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by ColleenV
I am disheartened by the delay in making this right. I hope that no-one is assuming that if you are ignored long enough all of this will go away. — ColleenV 53 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by diemilio
No, but that is precisely at the core of my confusion. I was under the impression that this input/output notation worked for any arbitrary qubits of the form $|x⟩ = Ξ±|0⟩ + Ξ²|1⟩, |y⟩ = Ξ³|0⟩ + Ξ΄|1⟩$, but it seems that it only works when $|x⟩$ and $|y⟩$ can only take values of $|0⟩$ or $|1⟩$? — diemilio 11 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by quantumorsch
Thank you very much! Yes, I know about non-unitary approaches to universal quantum computing and especially those involving noise on purpose via engineered dissipation with encoding of the computation outcome in the steady state of the evolution (cf. nature.com/articles/nphys1342) as I studied it for some time - but that is exactly the point of my question: those models are hardly ever talked about, almost nobody in the community and certainly industry seems to care — quantumorsch 17 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Shadow
So if someone asks to be called "xe" or "borg" or "pookipop" I must use that? That is beyond ridiculous. — Shadow 6 mins ago
To cite myself from here: "These users tend to take it personally, and will resort for any kind of claiming to be bullied because of their gender, cultural background, or whatever reason to find they feel discriminated. Probably along with flagging comments or answers as rude or abusive."πάντα αΏ₯Ξ΅αΏ– 8 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by FreeMan
"Explicitly avoiding using someone’s pronouns because you are uncomfortable is a way of refusing to recognize their identity and is a violation of the Code of Conduct." Forcing me to call a male "she" (or vice-versa) in opposition to my religious beliefs is inherently offensive to me, yet nobody seems to care about that. — FreeMan 9 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by IEatBagels
@Goyo Yes, but people have done an awesome job knowing fully well that it was under a private platform that exists to make money (and, on the side, help people) — IEatBagels 10 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Script47
@LShaver sounds like I'm trying to clarify an unclear CoC change which could potentially involve users getting banned. The purpose of this post is to clarify and that's what I'm doing. — Script47 11 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Thomas Owens
I agree that I'm not going to do much digging. However, I'd rather have the tools to support cases where a user is indicating that they feel unwelcome. Consistent with the new CoC updates, for example, let's say that they claim they are being misgendered by a user. I'd rather have the tools to investigate this easily rather than just handing it off to a CM. There are less than a dozen CMs for 170+ sites. I'd rather be able to take action quickly than hand off to a CM. — Thomas Owens 12 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Mgetz
@CesarM and yet the result is that all it takes is one user in bad faith and their friends to abuse this policy. I have grave concerns about this being used to abuse and target users. — Mgetz 13 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Flexo
@Catija This seems worse than we had before - unless I've missed something you're effectively saying it's ok to not answer a question because of how someone identifies. That to me seems less inclusive and welcoming than what we had before which told users to only focus on the content of the question and not on the asker. — Flexo 13 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dharman
"When the gender of the person referred to is unknown or indeterminate, the third-person pronoun he may be avoided by using gender-neutral alternatives – possibilities in English include singular they, he or she, or s/he." - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_languageDharman 14 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user1725145
@Meeep But you can't make the assumption that Robert is a "he" unless they have explicitly told you that, according the CoC. Some names (eg Nicola) are female in some countries and male in others. — user1725145 15 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Meeep
@user1725145 I think "Robert can use the carpark when they visit the shop" would be incorrect (or at least very awkward) because there's already a gender established at the beginning, since Robert is a male name, so using a gender neutral pronoun to someone already established as male would be wrong. But if you replace it with a gender neutral word that still refers to a specific person, it could be correct, such as "The manager can use the carpark when they visit the shop". — Meeep 17 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by OrangeDog
@Catija that doesn't appear to be what the CoC requires — OrangeDog 18 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Goyo
@LShaver Not using pronouns is not misgendering. — Goyo 19 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerberus
@Xirema: So you are basically presuming people are guilty of discrimination? And you will interpret a linguistic preference as justification for accusing or insinuating against someone? 1984. — Cerberus 21 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dragonrage
@Jnat /Cesar thanks for the clarification. — Dragonrage 22 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Aza
I do hope you understand that raising this point as vocally and loudly as you are is absolutely a dogwhistle and will draw (and is already drawing) those people to support you and advocate for the same. It's a dogwhistle regardless of what your intent is. For this reason, this post harms the ability of moderators to support queer justice. — Aza 23 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by LShaver
@ScottHannen I agree. In an effort to be more welcoming, sometimes those of us who have been comfortable for a long time need to feel a bit uncomfortable in order to bring in those who haven't been. — LShaver 24 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cerberus
@rjzii: It's not Euro-centric: it is Americo-centric. This is an American social issue. Most people in Europe would be baffled by it. — Cerberus 25 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
@Makoto And thanks to how Monica was treated (mentioned in the press) we know what "getting into trouble" could mean. — Modus Tollens 26 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by JNat
To add to Cesar's comment, see mine here. — JNat ♦ 27 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
Made known is when you become aware of the fact. If it's in the comments, then, fine. Correct and move on. There's no obligation to go out of your way to seek it out, but if someone tells you directly, comply and that's it. — Cesar M ♦ 28 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Null
@EmC Yeah, I'm reading that already but the answer needs to be visible to the public so we can point a troll to that. — Null 30 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Aza
This is good praxis. This post is thorough, complete, and clear, thank you. To the people challenging this on grounds of moderation: moderators are trusted to be able to enforce policies according to their best judgement, and there's really not a whole lot more to say. — Aza 31 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Scott Hannen
@LShaver - or we use usernames when we wish. No one is misgendered and no one uses words they find unusual. Then no one has to feel uncomfortable. Making some people uncomfortable by compelling them to use specific language almost seems to be the point. — Scott Hannen 32 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by LShaver
@Goyo hmm that's unclear. What did you mean by "words I am uncomfortable using"? — LShaver 32 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Machavity
In a similar vein, some method to track said field (in the same way we track edits) so someone cannot use this to troll in the opposite direction ("They misgendered me!" "Well, it said 'she/her' 5 minutes ago...") — Machavity 33 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tim Post
Disengaging is an option, and the reasons you do it are entirely up to you. As long as you don't disengage in obvious protest of someone's pronouns, it's really no different than just ignoring someone in chat, or muting someone on Twitter. But if disengaging in any way reveals to the person that your basis for excluding them is simply who they are, well, that's .. something we'd need to have a conversation about, especially if it kept coming up. — Tim Post ♦ 34 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by fbueckert
I feel like this kind of cuts to the core of many concerns; it elevates specific wording over conveying information, technical or otherwise, and by doing so, changes the paradigm. Moderators can't resolve such bad faith; the pronoun can be correct for that user, but is being used as a lever against another user. Taking one side or the other conflicts with the CoC. — fbueckert 35 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Goyo
@LShaver I am not talking about misgendering here. — Goyo 36 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
The intent of the requirement is to avoid users feeling singled-out, disrespected or invalidated. If someone's natural writing style always pertains equitably to everyone through typical discourse or isn't frequently interpreted as a clever means to avoid someone's stated pronouns, then, in theory, one might conclude that would work. In practice, it may simply not, and if we received multiple complaints of deliberately avoiding someone's pronouns, regardless of the intent, we'd need to take corrective action. — Cesar M ♦ 37 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Roddy of the Frozen Peas
So pretty much you shouldn't comment or answer until you read the biographies of all parties involved. — Roddy of the Frozen Peas 38 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
@Dragonrage Well, that would be a problem then. — Modus Tollens 39 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Em C
@Null there's a post on the mod teams with a mod-specific FAQ (but for this, basically the same answer, we can always ask the CMs) — Em C 41 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by gormadoc
@Zoethetransgirl "Your Grace" isn't a title - it's a style or term of address. It clearly performs all the work of a pronoun, complete with changing with context: "Your Grace" and "His/Her Grace." Why can't it be accepted as one? — gormadoc 41 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by HolyBlackCat
"We are asking everyone to use all stated pronouns as you would naturally write. You are not required to insert pronouns where you otherwise would not.", as stated in the OP — HolyBlackCat 42 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rjzii
@CesarM At least compromise here and have the FAQ recommend people put their preferred pronouns as comment to the question when pronouns are not relevant (ex., SO question about TCP/IP stacks). — rjzii 43 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by LShaver
@Goyo I think this gets to the intent of the CoC change. I can understand how that would feel unnatural -- but compare it to how uncomfortable it would feel to be mis-gendered because someone isn't willing to modify their writing style. — LShaver 44 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dragonrage
@ModusTollens, I think I have read maybe 3 about me sections on the SE network, and one of them was mine. — Dragonrage 45 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gus
We're going to need a "pronouns" field, so there's a record of when someone added/changed their pronouns — Gus 46 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Mad Scientist
@ScottHannen Yeah, it might be more like avoiding situations and discussions where it is likely that you would have to refer to them in third person. — Mad Scientist 47 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Makoto
@CesarM: It's a big deal to me. Now, bad questions and users acting in bad faith have a legitimate and sanctioned way to get me into some trouble. I'm not happy with this decision. It's like this angle wasn't considered. >:( — Makoto 49 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rjzii
@CesarM So the CoC is OK with dead-naming users through the data dumps then? — rjzii 49 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Houseman
That would be cool. Maybe it could be integrated with @ notifications, where you could do p_@{user} and it would fill in whatever the user has set? — Houseman 50 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user1725145
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Milo P
Seconding re: they/them. I tend to refer to people online who I don't know as "they" until I find out otherwise, so I'd like to make sure that it's interpreted under this CoC amendment as "ambiguous they" rather than "definite they" (since the latter could be considered misgendering). — Milo P 51 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
I read it as "as long as the pronoun is stated (in comments, posts or about me section) it has to be used" — Modus Tollens 52 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gus
Except that unless there's some sort of timestamped log, all the old posts are eligible for "Gentle Corrections"... — Gus 53 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by JNat
That would be correct, yes. — JNat ♦ 54 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Don&#39;t Panic
@CesarM that's true, I guess that's something I've never actually seen before on Stack Overflow. — Don't Panic 55 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Scott Hannen
Talking to that person is easier, because "you" is gender neutral. Unless it's determined that anyone is permitted to specify any pronoun that person wants in place of "you." — Scott Hannen 55 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
Move on to the new pronouns going forward and when make known it has changed. — Cesar M ♦ 56 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rjzii
This is a really important point as well since dead-naming is a concern for a lot of people. — rjzii 58 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
@Makoto For now, yes. We do. It's rarely come up so far, and if it becomes a big noise problem we can reassess, but I don't expect this to be a huge thing popping up in all questions n answers. — Cesar M ♦ 59 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Flexo
@Catija I wouldn't expect to see any pronouns in a well written question on SO other than "I". We've suspended well respected users in the past for adding a few letters at the end of every post. — Flexo 59 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Don&#39;t Panic
I'm happy to refer to people in whatever way they tell me, but I don't understand why it should be in the question/answer on a technical site when we normally edit out any personal off-topic stuff like "hello, my name is askdjfhga" or whatever. Does this indicate a general change in that policy, or is this an exception? — Don't Panic 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Xirema
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rjzii
@CesarM Nothing to check, I read that part. I'm telling you that you are going to get push back and all sorts of problems as a of that policy. Enforcement is going to be very painful for everyone involved. — rjzii 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Rand al&#39;Thor
@Nathaniel Moderators who don't have accounts on the programming site Stack Overflow also don't have access to the network's Mod Team. — Rand al'Thor 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Turner
@zoe funny, the only seen trolls I've seen since this hole kerfuffle began were those popping up in chat rooms ostensibly to flag things they take umbrage with. — Peter Turner 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Scott Hannen
[ Boson ] New comment posted by JNat
We ask that you use gender-neutral language when uncertain, and use the stated pronouns once they're made known. If you wanna "go the extra mile," looking at the user's "about me" before interacting is certainly nice, but we're not requiring it. — JNat ♦ 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by user1725145
Makoto, the company's priorities have been clear for a long time now. — user1725145 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Rand al&#39;Thor
I've actually seen a case, in general discussion around neopronouns, where someone mentioned an example and someone else said "please keep this discussion to real pronouns, it's not helpful to use made-up ones as an example" only to realise that those were actually real (accepted) neopronouns. — Rand al'Thor 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rjzii
@Catija No, not in the formal question. If SO is intended to be canonical technical documentation then the Q&A should remain that well. The comments to the questions are the appropriate place for that information. — rjzii 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Script47
@CesarM but how in the world would you moderate if someone is doing it in bad faith or not? Wouldn't simply saying 'no one would choose a pronoun like attack-helicopter' be invalidating an individual's feelings, especially if they're being genuine. — Script47 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by gormadoc
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Null
@CesarM How do we determine what is requested in bad faith? What, exactly, is a pronoun? If a user requests "qwfg" and "poiu" as pronouns are those bad faith or just new neo-pronouns? I know that's kind of a trolling question but as a moderator I need to know how to respond when a troll tries that. — Null 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cesar M
@rjzii please check "What should I do if I make a mistake and use the wrong pronouns?" If you make an honest mistake because it's been a while and you forgot, that's fine. Correct it, and move on. — Cesar M ♦ 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Xirema
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Andras Deak
OK, I see, thanks. Though I still think that "should be used correctly in the language" and "people should be respected" are beyond a point opposing aspects. I think that's exactly how this all started. — Andras Deak 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Monica Cellio
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rjzii
@CesarM No offense, but outside of the TL where you can see long histories of interactions, how the hell are people going to be able to make that assessment? You have better stats on network use than us, but I'm hard pressed to believe most people using the network really recognize that many other people's usernames (barring high rep) let along remember them well enough to know their pronouns. — rjzii 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cindy Meister
@Zoethetransgirl No, and we're so accustomed to not knowing or caring that it wouldn't even occur to us to do so. But, just to be sure... — Cindy Meister 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Keen
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Makoto
You mean to tell me... @Catija...you want me to keep that language in a question about Java?? Are you serious? — Makoto 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Meeep
@Andras That's exactly why I said that the CoC overcomplicates the issue. I'm not saying that pronouns should be "respected" but that they should be used correctly in the language someone's speaking. I'm also saying that people should be respected by not intentionally misgendering them. — Meeep 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Houseman
@CesarM How does one know if something is requested in bad faith, especially if it's a "neopronoun" they've never seen before? Who says that one pronoun is any less legitimate than another? — Houseman 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Xirema
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Xirema
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Catija
Please don't remove these. We don't have an official way to notate this for the time being, so if someone opts to put this in their post, please leave it there. Many users won't be aware of these changes, so we need to assume good intentions and roll back and possibly comment to let them know. If it turns into a rollback war, please draw the attention of the mods. — Catija ♦ 1 hour ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rjzii
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Qwertiy
@CesarM, I want you on English site to use my pronoun in Russian. According to published rules, you must to. — Qwertiy 32 mins ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cyn
I'm no fan of the idea of "oh so I can just stop using pronouns" and I agree with your issues with it. I still stand by my belief that someone saying that shouldn't be kicked to the curb and held up as the poster child for transphobia. Let's try to start fresh. — Cyn 33 mins ago
 

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