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00:26
Huge asteroid hurtling close to Earth today: 'Asteroid 2019 SP3 will whizz past us at over 30577km/h and should miss Earth by 372,868km.' Not sure the validity of this.
Either ways, the comment was priceless:
NASA receives $21 Billion in the US Budget. The US military budget is $750 billion.
Either way, this is the reason why all life on earth may be wiped out.
Off to the farm now, be back in 1-2 days.
@TelKitty I think Nasa outsources most of that
same with the military
 
5 hours later…
05:09
I wonder if there would be any interest in a header only library that somehow displays the current configuration of the OpenGL state machine.
 
3 hours later…
08:06
@Mikhail if it's lighter weight than having to run renderdoc I'd say so
Yeah so render doc has this lame "capture step", would be cool if you could inspect the capture at runtime.
#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
int x;
printf("%d",(x=1)+(x=2));

return 0;
}
why i am getting output 4?? in c
08:34
it's called undefined behavior
don't do that
 
1 hour later…
09:55
Render doc looks technically sophisticated, what kind of bugs did you use it for?
 
4 hours later…
13:42
@ratchetfreak the funny thing is my C professor wanted to explain x=1 will assign 1 to x and it's value will be 1
And used this as an example
it's UB because the assignments are sequenced before but are not sequenced in relation to each other.
what happend to "left to right"? ...out the window, to free up the optimizations?
@ABuckau never existed afaik
@Mysticial deleted
user8104581
14:33
I wonder what the record for downvotes is
user8104581
It's already at roughly 700
user8104581
-692
A: I'm resigning as a moderator from all Stack Exchange sites

Sara ChippsWe’re sorry to see you go. We understand there are some folks upset about the decision made this week. We aren’t going to share specifics out of respect for all individuals involved but this is a site reaching millions of people and we have to do what we believe fosters a spirit of inclusion an...

@andreyrk the feature anouncement to remove Hot Meta Posts has -730
-733
Q: We’re removing “Hot Meta Posts” from Stack Overflow's sidebar for now; moderators now fully control [featured]

Tim Post tl;dr: We're removing the "Hot Meta Posts" from Stack Overflow's sidebar while we work on looking at how Meta can better meet its goals. To ensure that moderators are able to bring important posts to the community, we'll be giving them exclusive access to the featured tag. "Featured on Meta" w...

next one is up is a request to rename MCVE with only 300 downvotes
-331
Q: Min-Reprex: a less awkward name for MCVE

Shog9 Update: ok, ok, this was a wee bit premature - here's the follow-up proposal: MCVExit redux: I don't need a milkshake to know when I've missed the mark Five years ago, we set out to write up some guidelines for folks asking debugging questions on Stack Overflow. Andrew Thompson, auth...

user8104581
14:51
Ah, I expect the Sara Chipps' answer to beat the feature removal and maybe hit 1k+, considering it's growing so fast
@andreyrk use SEDE to check
user8104581
Next phase of pronoun-gate is here:
-22
Q: An Update to our Community and an Apology

Sara ChippsFriends, Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior. We recognize it has caused concern in the community as a whole. We mad...

> But we must also acknowledge the way in which we implemented it and our communications surrounding the decision could have been much better.
Yeah, no kidding.
SE keeps claiming that it's "community driven" but their decision making process is usually pretty opaque.
16:23
Once this thing gets voted to the top, the whole Q is gonna be one of the better laughing stocks:
28
A: An Update to our Community and an Apology

George StockerHere's what I was hoping for: On behalf of Stack Exchange I want to apologize to all of you. I messed up. When I made the call to terminate Monica's moderator relationship, I believed that it needed to be done at that moment, and in the manner it was done. I was wrong. Through my actions, ...

user8104581
This isn't the kind of early life stories I was expecting to have to tell my grandchildren in the future.
how a massive community got destroyed by mismanagement...
@EtiennedeMartel Not to mention, from the looks of things right now, it seems downright dishonest. At least as Monica describes the situation, she asked some questions for clarification of a proposed change to the CoC. This tries to claim that there were repeated violations of the existing code of conduct--but nobody seems able to point to a single shred of evidence that any such thing actually happened. At least to me, it sounds disturbingly like: "I am not a crook!"
It feels like a kneejerk reaction that they hoped they could sweep under the rug.
16:40
@EtiennedeMartel If it had been posted five minutes later, they could blame it on being a kneejerk reaction, but it's getting close to a week later. By this time, they should at least have put a little thought into things before posting--and anybody with an IQ higher than their shoe size should have known this "apology" (which is much more accusation than actual apology) was completely unacceptable.
I think they didn't think they'd need to apologize, or explain, or do anything really.
In SE's mind, SE is theirs, and the community doesn't exist
@EtiennedeMartel apparently not, tim made a comment that they were aware of the consequences
@EtiennedeMartel if that's the case they need to freeze and lock the metas
@JerryCoffin The other question is did anyone actually review this "apology". Sure one person may have slipped up, but that's kinda what having people work together is for.
Sorta like code reviews.
@EtiennedeMartel I hate to agree, but that certainly seems to fit with how they've acted for a while now.
It's not exactly new. The whole "the community decides everything" thing was Jeff's idea, but even he had the tendency to overrule the community's wishes whenever he disagreed. When he left, things got better, but now it seems SE is no longer some sort of community driven project, but just yet another tech corporation with shareholders and for-profit motivations.
I guess it has always been that, but it wasn't as obvious.
16:53
@EtiennedeMartel meta has been dead for a few months, and by that I mean that SE staff no longer read or interact with meta
@EtiennedeMartel It's had shareholders and for-profit motives from day one. At one time they were willing to believe that their users were intelligent enough to help guide them toward a meaningful business model. Oddly, their current pursuit of profit seems to be done largely by courting potential users who are the most likely to be strongly averse to their pursuing profit.
@Mysticial Yeah--I'm (thankfully) no longer in a position where I review letters that get sent out to customers and such, but back when I was in such a position, we had a clearly stated policy that all written communication with customers had to be reviewed by at least two people (and likewise, every conference call had to have at least two of our people on the line). SE is a much larger company in a much more sensitive position, and this is clearly a much more sensitive topic.
If they didn't have at least a few people review it before posting, their management is even more idiotic than I'd previously guessed it could be.
@JerryCoffin Or it could be similar to some of the failures of CRM (cockpit resource management). For example, the junior pilot not challenging the captain even when he/she sees the captain doing something very wrong.
@Mysticial If so, it's a still greater failure. A situation like this calls for high-level involvement, not junior pilots.
Or rather, a toxic environment where you can't (or afraid to) challenge your superiors.
@Mysticial The point is that even if it went out under somebody else's name, the superiors should have been directly involved in writing and vetting this before it was posted. Given how seriously this can impact their business, it would be entirely reasonable to ask the CEO to read it before it got posted.
17:09
true
user8104581
I'd guess internal management is pretty confused in SE atm, with the CEO change and on-going problems
Though the assumption that this can "seriously this can impact their business" might not be true. Since I've given arguments that us users are currently actively harmful to SE's business direction.
In which case, it doesn't matter how much they offend us because we don't matter anyway.
@Mysticial I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they believe we don't matter. But the reality is that somebody at a high level should have sat back and realized that regardless of anything else, a web site need traffic to have any relevance at all, and (as they've shown in some of their own blog posts) dedicated users account for a lot of their traffic.
They might want to change the profile of who generates how much traffic, but they have to remain aware of the fact that you aren't going to survive long enough to get new users if you cut your traffic too drastically in short term.
I'm still in shock over how bad this has been
I suppose there is an alternative possibility though: I'd guess they probably have more users more engaged (especially on meta) right now than they've had in years (and for that matter, we have more traffic here in the Lounge lately too). As @EtiennedeMartel has observed in the past, controversy and conflict drive traffic and engagement. So, it's possible this whole thing was intentional (or at least when it became apparent what was happening, they decided to ignore its long-term problems).
17:19
My guess is that they felt like they had nothing to lose. It's not like you can reasonably boycott SO, ya know.
user8104581
The majority of people that access the network likely don't know about the issue, but with fewer mods they do have things to lose, wouldn't be surprised if the environment became more hostile
@EtiennedeMartel Well, some people obviously could, but I think almost anybody who tries to create a direct alternative is likely to run into roughly the same difficulties they have. Somebody else might or might not handle those problems better, but what we're seeing is a microcosm of the sort of problems humanity faces as a whole, and nobody seems to have really obvious cures.
The problem with having something be "community driven" is that over time it's easy for that to become an increasingly closed club that is hostile to newcomers.
My suspicion is this:
1. The meta population is negligible compared to the entire user base.
2. The meta population is actively harmful to growth because it's the same population that's doing all the "unwelcoming moderation".
3. Therefore, the loss of the meta population will minimally impact the site's survival. If anything, it will actually help it.
4. The user/staff relationship has deteriorated to the point that SE has deemed it to be unsalvageable or at least extremely difficult to do so.
5. I still think SE people are reasonable people. So they wouldn't intentionally shit on their use
@Mysticial Even then they're only shitting on the meta users, which they probably want to get rid off anyway.
user8104581
17:26
The questions' revision log is pretty amusing: meta.stackexchange.com/posts/334248/revisions
@Mysticial You certainly have a reasonable point that shitting on meta users is unlikely to noticeably affect most of their traffic (and indeed, meta users may on average be inimical to the site as a whole).
Aw man, I hate it when a business tries to claim its customers are friends.
It's never in the customer's best interests.
@EtiennedeMartel We're not their customers. We're their product.
It's even worse then.
17:51
@JerryCoffin I guess the argument that you shouldn't pee on your own product because nobody will buy it doesn't quite work here.
@Mysticial Yeah facebook and google kinda broke that
@Mgetz Right. So SE is trying to copy them. The more the baker pees on his bread, the more people will buy it! Is it because it adds flavor?
Responding here as it is the top post. We aren't going to re-litigate the past. We can't share more details as they involve real people, both moderators and people that work here. What we can say now is that we will do better in the future. We'll be clarifying the CoC and putting out processes for how to remove moderators as well as one to appeal a removal ASAP. — Sara Chipps ♦ 3 mins ago
user8104581
The past is a few days away
@Mgetz "Dear friends, you can't force us to even act like we actually give a shit about you, and we're sure as hell not going to without being forced."
18:02
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 36 mins ago, by Magisch
I don't know why this needs to be said again but this is still policy in the tavern: Absolutely no personal attacks on staff members. None. Zero. Criticise staff as a unit all you want but nothing personal. We will kick enforce this here without exception.
@Mgetz I guess it's a good thing I used a plural pronoun for the staff then... :-)
yep, I linked it as a reminder only
user8104581
hopefully this is not prohibited here: pastebin.com/JH1BTnEd
18:19
@Mgetz The rule does indicate rather backward thinking though. There should be an exception for staff members--attacks on staff should be tolerated to a greater degree than attacks on normal users.
@JerryCoffin personally I disagree, it should be the same. Ad hominem should be strictly discouraged.
user8104581
@Mgetz I think @JerryCoffin didn't mean that kind of personal attack
@andreyrk I didn't either? we were just discussing?
user8104581
@Mgetz I mean, I might have interpreted being allowed criticizing only "staff as a unit" as not being able to point fault at a specific person at all
@Mgetz I have no problem with discouraging it. But most businesses have some sort of complaint desk, and a decently run one realizes that most people coming to the complaint desk have legitimate complaints--and sometimes people who are frustrated are going to express it inappropriately. That shouldn't be punished unless it becomes truly egregious. Even if the phrasing is personal, the attack is because the company fucked up, so it should be tolerated to a much greater degree.
18:29
@JerryCoffin There is a contact link at the bottom of the site that alerts the CMs directly IIRC
@Mgetz I'll take your word for it. My kids watch The Flash enough to make it clear that Meta-humans are dangerous should be avoided, so I won't be checking in there to found out.
lol
Hm. I have this weird idea. In my program the RPC thread frequently needs to consume counters from another worker thread. I'm considering temporarily pinning RPC thread to the core-id of the hyperthread sibling core of the worker thread during the consume. This way the worker thread won't suffer any hits from cache line ownership changes.
I wonder if this has been done before.
Chances are that it's total overkill though.
However, if NUMA is involved it's likely to make a difference.
18:47
@Mysticial completely different topic: I am amused that the NUMA limitation on EPYC is a windows one and not a chip one. The package could operate as s single domain but doesn't.
19:02
@StackedCrooked That precise scenario? Probably not. Something pretty similar? Yeah, wouldn't surprise me anyway.
@StackedCrooked Depending on how much processing you're doing (vs., how much data you'd be moving around) it could even be counterproductive. Could also depend on whether you care more about ultimate speed, or about minimizing power usage (i.e., using two threads on a single core could save power but force more serialization).
@fredoverflow I find your voice to be very soothing. :-)
@JerryCoffin Definitely not trying to optimize for power. As you may have expected, it's a packet processing program. I'm mostly trying to avoid small amounts of packet loss every time the RPC needs to get the counters. However, I'm just fantasizing really. If I were to seriously consider this I'd definitely need to get some measurements to confirm the problem actually exists.
And once I'd have those measurements I can implement this optimization and see how much of a difference it makes. And then scrap it.
Tracking all these measurements also is very intrusive to the code. So often the hard part is finding a way to organize all of it so it looks clean.
@StackedCrooked If you're after speed, you might be better off trying to pin the threads to two cores that share the highest level of shared cache, but are still separate cores.
@StackedCrooked Coder's rule #1: It was hard to write, so it should also be hard to read! :-)
Remember, nobody will value your work if you make it look like it was simple and easy.
19:18
@JerryCoffin The reader should suffer just as much.
@JerryCoffin That's also true.
@StackedCrooked I've actually run into a few managers who thought that way. One fairly directly accused me of being lazy because I'd spent quite a while writing some code, and when I was done, it was fairly short and simple (never mind that a more senior guy had tried to write it, and ended up with something longer and more complex that only sort of worked...)
That's frustrating.
@JerryCoffin I never realized how wise this idea was untill just reading it now
However, a manager can read the code and understand it should know better.
@StackedCrooked It was. But I don't work there any more, and it's been long enough it's almost starting to be fun looking back at it.
19:26
@Mgetz The processor group thing?
@StackedCrooked Yes, he should have. Honestly, I think he may have understood it, but it was a startup that hadn't raised as much money as they needed. I think they were looking for an excuse to say I was being fired for cause instead of layed off (because a layoff would make them liable for unemployment costs).
I once worked for a startup where the manager was a sales person, not a technical person. The company provided "video streaming solutions". One day he found a customer that had some video files that needed to be converted to another format. So a colleague of mine was tasked to do this. He wrote some scripts that called ffmeg etc. When he showed his work the boss was complaining that it didn't look like a product he could sell. (Even though it was already sold.)
So the developer was tasked to write a GUI application that visualized the conversion.
I'm 100% sure the customer didn't care about that at all.
He just wanted his files in the right format.
@StackedCrooked I've probably told the story before, but a few decades ago, I did something similar. Had written a program that did some transformations on (still) picture files from the command line. Friend complained that it wasn't graphical, so I wrote a (hobbled) version for MacOS that was graphical, complete with sliders and such to control what it was doing--but since it had already computed the optimum settings, it wouldn't let you save a picture until the controls were all set correctly.
I feel like I needed to rectify this, the numbers I provided you with were originally wrong, it turned out my GPU was not compiling the code correctly for the GPU. These are the actual numbers:
The maximum number found on GPU was: 2.09715e+07
The GPU took: 8534.17 milli-seconds
The maximum number found on CPU was: 2.09715e+07
The CPU took: 26154 milli-seconds
@Mysticial Yeah, MS limits to UINT64
and it's a bitmask
19:34
@Mgetz Yeah. On 32-bit, it's limited to 32. IOW, the native word size.
@Rick double or single?
Friend seemed to think this was better, and didn't notice that all the graphical "stuff" was just window-dressing, and it was pre-computing the settings.
@Mysticial odd wouldn't the double size compare and exchange instructions allow larger?
or is that because some archs don't support that?
@JerryCoffin Huh. You had to set the controls correctly so they match the precomputed settings? That means the controls aren't really controls, right?
@Mgetz If they wrote the entire scheduler to use a word-sized bitmask it's easy to fall into a ton of traps that make it hard to break out of that.
19:36
@Mgetz floats
@StackedCrooked They were controls--it showed the picture, and you could see how changing each control affected what it looked like. You just couldn't save until you got them right (and in this case, there was an actual "right" value for each).
@Mysticial indubitably, and they probably tried to make it as lockless as possible using Intel guarantees
@Mgetz Not just that, but you can't do 16-byte atomic bitmasking without hacking around cmpxchg - which is ugly.
@Mysticial even cmpxchg16?
@Mgetz Like you would need to use a series of cmpxhg16 to emulate something like an atomic 16-byte AND or OR.
And then stuff like bit-scanning for finding which bits (and which cores) are available or busy.
19:39
ah fair, I don't think you can lock AVX or SSE either
16-byte masks doesn't solve anything either. Instead of a 64-core processor group, you now have 128.
yep it's only going to get worse
Point being that a fully flexible solution would inherently result in all-to-all data dependencies with O(N^2) complexity. Sure N is still small, but I can see why M$FT doubled-down on limiting the all-to-all aspect.
@Mysticial I suspect that's actually what they swapped away from..
If I want to set processor affinity in POSIX with N cores, I need to send in an N-bit long CPU affinity mask - which is dynamically allocated.
This isn't scalable.
It might work fine up to a few thousand or even tens of thousands of cores. But the O(N^2) aspect of it isn't great.
@Mgetz I don't think they ever did it to begin with. They probably always had word-optimized schedulers.
19:44
@Mysticial I thought internally at least Linux used something similar to windows
The main gripe is that 64 isn't the optimal spot for forcing partitioning. IOW, you can still efficiently do all-to-all at larger sizes.
@Mgetz I think they used to. But then they added support for arbitrarily long CPU bitmasks. It used to be hard-coded unsigned int[4].
The other thing is that M$FT recognizes that any hardware topology that has a gazillion cores will have enough NUMA and other locality aspects that you can't do all-to-all anyway even with a perfect scheduler. IOW, the user/application will need to get involved anyway.
It just turns out that 64+ core architectures with flat-ish topology exist now.
But they sure as hell didn't back in Win7 when they did the processor group thing.
So M$FT is correct in the need for processor groups. The mistake is choosing 64 as the threshold and tying it to the word size.
So in y-cruncher, my one and only processor-group-aware parallel framework tries to emulate all-to-all on top of the processor groups. It's ugly and suboptimal. Something that I intend to revisit in the future or just ignore if I happen to get the "multi-region" computing modes to work where the algorithms themselves are aware of locality regions which can then be mapped directly to processor groups.
@Mysticial I'm actually curious if the NUMA core assignment is optimal on EPYC or not
20:01
@Mysticial I don't know the internals, but definitely Windows NT 3.1 already used a 32-bit mask for processor affinity and such anyway.
@Mysticial side note what did MS do to piss you off today? you don't normally do M$FT
@Mgetz Nothing. I almost always use M$FT.
the late 90s called they want their Billy G back
I think I only use M$FT in casual contexts.
20:59
@Mysticial The number of causalties does not render SO a casual context.
21:39
@JerryCoffin have you ever encountered a practical use of machine learning outside of image classification in your entire career?
@Rick Yes. Well, maybe, anyway. The phrase "machine learning" wasn't big at the time, but years ago I wrote code to find similarity between patents based on the text they contained.
Oh, also did some analysis of things like which patents cited which other patents and such. Then did some training to figure out to weight the different factors to fit with some predetermined classifications.
21:55
@JerryCoffin when you were looking at the text to find similarities how accurate what that?
did it do a fair enough job to free up people from doing that work?
*how accurate was it
22:17
@Rick It did a reasonable first-level search--at least as good as most people could by reading a patent and deciding on phrases to search for by hand and such (and with quite a bit less manual labor).
I have done machine learning in the past, but I feel very skeptical about its practical value. Maybe, I am being too harsh and need to reevaluate my thought process.
The stuff you say ಠ_ಠ
Is questioning one's own assumption a bad thing?
Questions are delimited by a question mark. You made a blanked statement about a emerging technology that has enabled automatic, end-to-end image detection.
I said excluding image detection
22:29
Sure, all speech to text and translation is currently using machine learning
But also things like predicting real estate or corn yields
Anyways, the real problem with the comment is that the skepticism isn't supported, and goes against the realities that everybody is using fancy deep learning, at present.
I think you lump too much into machine learning. Image recognition I understand, but I would prefer to speak to professionals in those industries to know where machine learning actually being employed to solve whatever problem they are working on.
How do you know that they are simply not bruteforcing a solution which might not have been viable 10 years ago?
22:46
I'm a professional in that industry.
@Mikhail what do you use image recognition for? face detection? Object detection?
I use deep learning for many things, recently did a bunch of work on semantic segmentation for assaying sperm quality, doing stuff now on embryos, also detecting cells in a petri dish.
I also use it for image reconstruction.
But also worked on audio for $$$ when I was in undergrad.
@Rick All forms of introspection are bad. Four year-olds aren't introspective, and they're happy, so we should all aspire to the ignorance of youth.
23:02
@Mikhail And when dealing with all these facets, for example, biological embryos exhibit different behavior from say an audio wave. If you were just looking at a pattern without building for the context, wouldn't we always do worse in modeling that behavior, than by simply understanding the laws that govern that behavior employing the appropriate structure to deal with it?
@Rick Maybe. Much of what machine learning does is let us simulate some underlying laws with some degree of accuracy without putting a lot of effort into figuring out what those laws are. In a lot of cases (e.g., audio, many biological systems) it's nearly impossible to know enough about the environment to apply the fundamental laws directly even if/when you do know them.
For example, you're processing an audio signal recorded in an auditorium of some sort. While it's easy to get an idea of the room's resonances from basic measurements, it's much harder to be sure how the presence of the audience affects the acoustics.
@Mikhail There are general strategies for doing well on a test even when you don't know the material. There are certain things you can do to improve your odds, so for example if your test was on a scantron.
They tell you to pick some letters when you don't know the answer, they tell you how to vary the selections, etc.. That's all based on statistics and some pattern they have witnessed test-makers are predisposed to do. However, that's very different from studying the material and being prepared.
@JerryCoffin true.
23:17
@Rick I've managed (a couple of times) to not just pass, but get quite high scores on tests without knowing the subject mater at all. If you look through multiple choice tests carefully, later questions will often make the answers to earlier questions obvious. "1. what is the state of water at room temperature? ... 3. At what temperature does water solidify? ... 7. At what temperature does water convert to gaseous form?"
@JerryCoffin I wish this was the kind of machine learning what as actually being done. But I don't think it is.
@Rick Not really, no. Most of them really seem to work out to some sort of comb filter.
@JerryCoffin I mean transfer learning.
@Rick That too--even when things work as we'd like, we're not really creating artificial intelligence nearly as much as artificial idiot savants.
I don't even think Alphazero does transfer learning
@JerryCoffin lol it's that what companies value, idiot savants.
23:58
isn't*

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