last day (16 days later) » 

5:28 PM
-17
Q: Is it OK for moderators to delete answers?

OleRecently I asked this question and there was no answer so I worked with DexieJS to flesh out an MVCE on Stackblitz and I wrote up a blog post that explains it. After that, I posted an answer with links to the MVCE and the blog post in case anyone would find that useful. After that I got a bunch ...

 
Deleting stuff is not "rude". Might be right or wrong, but it's not "rude" nor "polite". Is what we elect moderators for.
 
Ole
I love how when a question is asked that is critical of moderator powers / overreach minuses start pooring in right away. No one takes time to actually look at hte full context, they just hear "What there's a possibility of super power abuse" MINUS!
 
It was a link-only answer with no content besides links. I understand you want to have this answer on SO, but then it should be an answer that adheres to the rules on SO.
 
Ole
It's still useful for people that need to see the information. Now the information simply exists in the comments instead of in an answer. Nothing is changed.
 
Could you... post a screenshot without the current April Fool's theme on please? (link)
 
5:28 PM
@Ole why can't your flesh out an answer that answers the question directly without relying on the external resources, then provide the links for extra info. If you do that correctly, it will likely be undeleted
 
@Ole Your answer has been handled like any other link only answer. Nothing rude happened here.
 
Zoe
Even if a mod didn't delete that, I guarantee you it would've been flagged and deleted anyways...
 
Looking at your answer, I probably would have flagged it as Not An Answer and posted a comment: "This is a link-only answer - if the link dies, the answer contains no useful information. See Are answers that just contain links elsewhere really "good answers"? or Your answer is in another castle: when is an answer not an answer? for more information. Please edit your answer to summarise the salient points from the link so that if the link dies, your answer is still relevant."
 
Ole
That policy is silly. If Medium, Github, and SO all of a sudden dies then the world is in big trouble. I'm not going to undue a blog post that I wrote within the next year and the info is also on Github and Stackblitz, so there are now plenty of places to see it. The links were for other SO users that might have this question. We live in a world of distributed information. It's not all going to exists on SO. In the end deleting the answer and moving content to comments just shifts the content.
If anyone wants to post a better answer they are free to do so. Meanwhile, if anyone comes across the post, now they have useful information that did not exist before. All this did was show that moderators will abuse their super powers if they feel like it. There's no other effect here.
 
Saying "so I told them that if they want more here on SO they should provide another answer" doesn't justify your answer being here. You're admitting that your answer is not on Stack Overflow, and that you're refusing to place it on Stack Overflow. Why should a link to your personal blog be advertised on Stack Overflow?
 
Ole
5:28 PM
Because I already did two days of work to develop an answer for my peers that might also be looking and there's no reason to repeat all of that information all over again and SO does not have a Stacblitz capability.
 
There is a very good reason: if you do not post the content here on a post, but only link to it, it's going to be deleted. I think that's a great reason to do it.
 
The tour states "With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming." Links to other people's libraries don't help build the library here, unless they're supporting good content here.
 
Whether or not the policy is silly is not what's under discussion here. Under the current policy (which does have a long history of reasons behind it), answers containing only links and no content of their own are not considered very good answers, and are candidates for flags. You are not a new user, you have over 9000 points, I'm very doubtful you were unaware of the way link-only answers are treated, but even if you were, saying that the moderator who had enforced that policy was "rude" is a bit of a stretch.
 
Ole
It is rude to delete information that other SO users may find helpful.
 
No, it's not. Those are the rules. It's rude to do stuff flaunting the rules. Like ignoring a "do not smoke sign", or entering to my house with shoes when I told you you shouldn't wear shoes within my home.
 
5:28 PM
@Ole If you don't agree with the policy you should post a feature request (it it wasn't posted before). As it is now, deleting link only answers is accepted policy and you shouldn't expect to be exempt from it.
 
Ole
I already asked for this feature: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/352225/…
 
"that policy is silly" ... maybe in your eyes. But the policy is still made up by us, the community and has its reasons. If you disagree you could start a debate here on Meta, but ignoring the policy is not an option.
 
Ole
There is a reason why police have their body cameras on.
 
@Ole You can question whether it was right or wrong, OK or not, but I assure you that "rude" it was not. This is the platform you chose to post on, these are its rules and its policies. We are the moderators elected by the community to enforce those policies. No one attacked you, no one called your information bad, or insulted your skills. You posted a link only answer, people commented that that was not OK, you did not improve your answer here on the site with their feedback, it was then flagged, and deleted by a moderator. This is all normal process.
 
That's a different rant about you not liking moderator actions. Not a feature-request regarding this specific policy.
Moderators always have their "body cameras on". Moderator actions are public.
 
Ole
5:28 PM
@MadaraUchiha it's rude because it did a disservice to other SO users. It did zero to improve their world.
 
@Ole Everything users and even moderators do is tracked and recorded, and the history is almost always visible to those with high enough reputation score, and 99.9% of the actions we have access to are both visible and easily reversible. What kind of transparency problem do you think exists here?
 
Ole
The same problem that caused all the blog articles critical of SO that I linked in this post: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/352225/…
Just look at the general behavior on this discussion. People drew their conclusions before looking at any of the context.
 
@Ole So let me get this straight. You ask a question that goes against current question-writing policies, you receive feedback in the comments, you ignore said feedback, the question then ends up downvoted and deleted, after which you make a fairly rant-y post on meta, which also gets downvoted. And now, you repeat the process again, with an answer you've written. Did I miss anything? You are here by choice, you are also not new. What do you imagine happening when you post things ignoring the guidelines and feedback?
 
Do you want a discussion about the general policy (should moderators be able to delete specific answers) or your specific case (why was my answer deleted)? You're mixing the two and it's very unproductive imo.
 
Ole
It's OK to leave comments. It's ok to downvote the answer. It's OK to leave a different better answer. It's not OK to just come in and nuke an answer.
 
5:28 PM
I wonder why topics like this get blown out of proportion from the beginning and continue to eskalate. We now arrived at body cams. What. How is all this easier than editing your answer and providing the link to your blog post as reference? Smh
 
@Ole It is OK, as it is part of the platform which you chose to post upon. You can't pick and choose which parts of the policies you think should apply to you and which do not. If you have a concrete proposal to make a change to the policy (for example, to make it so moderators are not allowed to delete answers under some circumstances), I suggest you make a serious post here on meta, detailing your plan. But you will not do it, because you already know how that is going to go. And no, it is not the fault of the community. Deleting has its purpose, and calling it "rude" is a disservice.
 
Ole
It's not easier. It's a lot more work, but after a lot of feedback from other in the community SO changed their policies and they will do it again, and now they have a reference discussion to do it with.
 
@Modus. We haven't (yet) gotten to comparisons with killing or even to godwin's law. Better than some other threads I guess.
 
All you needed to do, and all you still need to do, is add the relevant bits of information to the answer itself, leave the well-written blog post and examples there, they are valuable but they cannot stand on their own, your answer needs to answer the question by itself, and extra links with additional information is welcome. The moment you do that, your answer is very likely to be undeleted within seconds.
 
Ole
It's very easy to see what the moderator behavior and motivations are from these types of discussons.
 
5:28 PM
"Motivations"? What do you believe moderator motivations are???
 
Ole, the word "motivation" doesn't appear in that question. Please, try to be patient with me and explain wich do you believe the moderator "motivations" are.
 
Ole
The first question the moderator should ask is "Does this action make SO better". In this case it did absolutely nothing.
 
You said that the answer contains a link to the MCVE. What would happen if the link has gone 404? Then the answer would be useless. Without context around the link, the answer would be useless if the link has gone 404.
 
You've linked to that 3 times now. What are you expecting us to glean from that? What actionables does that give me as a moderator to reflect upon? Also, that question seems to be mixing moderators and users, which also have moderation powers. Moderators are those with a diamond character next to their names, like mine.
 
Zoe
5:28 PM
@Ole yet you forget your answer is useless if the links die
 
Ole
As you can see in here meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/352225/… the net effect on many users was that they felt unwelcome on SO.
 
It did. Imagine a question with 20 answers, all of them being link-only. Which one would you click?
 
Ole
Don't imagine stuff. This was a concrete answer with concrete useful links. We don't need to go into hypotheticals.
 
@JonasWilms ... And all of the links have gone 404...
 
Zoe
@Ole ok. Votes and deletion isn't inheritly rude, even if they're frequently considered that. You need to realize you were wrong. There are policies against link-only answers, and also links to an MCVE in the question
 
Ole
5:28 PM
By the time they are gone the internet will have 10 other sources. Nuking the answer just assured that now there is less releveant information on SO.
 
@ole policies have to be universal, if they aren't, they aren't policies. As you made the police comparison already: What would you do if a police officer saw you while driving too fast, but wouldn't stop you? Moderators (and police officers) aren't acting on based on their feelings, they follow rules set up by the community.
 
Another thought to consider: Following links at work might be restricted. It's so much better to include relevant information in the answer, not only for the possibility of links going 404.
 
This is getting long. A moderator should move comments to chat.
 
Alright, I've heard enough of this. @Ole You've been given clear actionables on improving your answer and getting to its undeletion. Your accusation of the deletion as being "rude" as though someone intended to mock you for making it is false and frankly quite rude in and of itself. I will stop entertaining you here. If you wish to fix up your answer and make the internet a better place, feel free. If you wish to go on about how terrible our moderators are without providing (or listening to) any constructive feedback, feel free to keep commenting here.
 
Ole
The bottom line is that nuking the answer did not make SO better. All it did was shift the content, which was rude and annoying, especially given the amount of time I just spent developing it and providing it for no financial reason.
 
5:28 PM
There can be many things that prevent your link from opening and causing the answer to be useless. A few of them: The link can go 404, A slow internet connection, A proxy or ISP blocking the website...
The comments are finally moved to chat.
 
It did make SO better. At least for me, and for many others that set up that policy
 
@Ole Wow, your desktop looks wonderful, is it an Ubuntu?
 
@peterh Looks like Ubuntu, yes.
 
@MadaraUchiha Ok, but lately the Ubuntus I've seen were not so beautyful.
 
@peterh Maybe you just haven't met the right one
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5:35 PM
@Ole Btw, Ole! The mods are not so evil guys! Yes, that mod really deleted the post, but this link-only policy is very easy to circumvent: copy-paste the most important part of the remote content into your post, and so will it be okay.
 
@peterh Ironically, they hadn't clicked the link that would get them here and continue the discussion.
3
 
starts a ping war
 
@Ole You can also send a direct, private message to the mod in flag. So, copy-paste, edit, and then flag the OP with a polite ask, roughly so: "I think I inserted the important parts into the answer, may I ask for an undelete?" The probability that it will be undeleted is imho more than 90%
 
I think that there are two issues here: 1) Was it rude for the moderator to delete your question? and 2) Are there situations where link-only answers are appropriate?
I think that all agree that the former, that deleting an answer that goes against stated policy is not rude, and that moderators have been elected to enforce policy. The second question still stands, but the first gets in the way of the second.
But this is why we have meta, for the community discuss and decide whether the current policy makes the site better or not. Nothing wrong with posting a link in an answer as long as there is also adequate explanation of the answer so that it stands on its own, with or without a link.
If you disagree, if you feel that there are edge cases where exceptions should occur, then perhaps re-ask this question more of as a policy change request, complete with details on the specifics of which edge cases should be allowed, and less as a rudeness complaint, and let's discuss it.
 
We should have a separate Comments are not for extended bickering. Discussion seems to overrate what was happening in the comments.
 
Zoe
5:39 PM
@peterh that's not a private message, that's a flag and it goes to the first mod who handles it, not necessarily the one who deleted
 
Yeah, I closed because it was a one-sided, double-barrelled question with nonproductive discussion. Not because there is no discussion to be had on the subject
 
@double-beep Pinging who? But the comments looks like flooded the inbox of the OP.
 
@peterh: good idea -- let's fan the flames of anger and take the discussion further along that road.
2
 
@peterh The "meta effect" is real, but I don't think that necessarily makes the meta users the bad guys
5
 
Zoe
I really don't get the misconception deletion is rude. It might've been useful, but SO has standards. If it was a comment, that would've been acceptable, but as an answer it needs to be complete without links and external references
3
 
5:41 PM
Any given post will usually get a certain amount of attention. Especially in the case of poorly received posts, low score means less visibility, so pile-up is generally less common
But once you bring it to meta, you suddenly get lots of eyes on it
2
 
@Ole I've seen multiple times that such an evil player finally got to the modship. And a year later he was a fair mod. He got what he wanted. But the majority of the MSO community won't get it ever, this is the cause of the wild west-like sociological structure of the meta site.
 
Yeah, a ton of eyes on the post when you bring it up on meta.
 
This continued accusation of certain users being "evil" is kinda rude. @peterh could you please tone down your language?
2
 
@Ole Medium.com, for instance, is blocked in China (1, 2). I wouldn't be surprised if it's blocked by some other firewalls too. GitHub isn't blocked in China, but there's nothing to say that it won't be blocked by firewalls at workplaces, etc.
4
 
@peterh Attacking an undefined minority group is not productive imo. If you got something to say, say it and be specific. As for the downvotes on main, they're anonymous, and could be cast by anyone with enough rep to vote.
 
Zoe
5:44 PM
Also @Ole, you appear to draw foundationless assumptions as to what is useful, and what isn't, and basing rudeness off that. You've been presented with several posts backing up a valid deletion that you blatantly ignore. I highly suggest you actually read those
 
Ole
The other thing that is interesting is that now that moderator super powers were questions, not only did they downvote this post, they also downvoted the referenced question.
 
@ErikA Oh for sure, but the meta effect is a well-known and observable phenomenon
 
@ErikA Exact rep to downvote, not vote
 
@MadaraUchiha True, but don't go attributing it to power-mad high-rep users without any facts
 
@ErikA Granted.
 
Zoe
5:45 PM
@Ole because according to your description, the question is off-topic. If it has an off-site MCVE, it should be closed
 
@yivi Yes, of course. Btw, I think "evil" means to harming others for your own benefit. The generally hostile attitude of the MSO doesn't benefit even for the ones doing it. Thus, it doesn't really fulfill the definition, but I simply couldn't find a better word for that (not even on my native language).
 
@Ole I didn't vote on that question simply because it was linked from meta. But it was already closed when you did link to it. It's not suprising it gets downvotes.
 
Ole
The fact is that an answer with useful links that illustrate how to go about creating many to many relationships with dexie was delete. That's a fact. The second fact is that this action did nothing to enhance the experience for SO users.
 
Off-site resources can be blocked. Try to use text instead of images
 
Stack Overflow is a repository of questions and answers, not a repository of links
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Ole
5:46 PM
Regardless of whether something can be blocked the moderator action did nothing to enhance the experience for SO users.
 
@Ole I disagree. Part of the experience is that the answer is right there
 
Ole
Stephen you will find that 100ds of thousands of answers have links in them.
 
It is indexable by Google and other tooling
 
@Ole You still don't get the point. If we don't enforce quality standards, we will lose good content over half-adequate link-only meh content.
 
@yivi Honestly, that piranha-like bullying what is going on the MSO, I can't really understand it on a rational way. My best hyphothese is that it is more like a psychological phenomenon, i.e. an irrational reaction of the antagonistic community members to their unfulfillable hunger for the diamond.
 
5:47 PM
@Ole Are you open to the idea that some other users may think that their experience is enhanced by moderator deleting some posts?
 
@Ole Yes, but not only links, those are much rarer.
 
Where is Servy BTW?
2
 
@Ole: don't complain -- elaborate. Re-ask your meta question with specifics on where you think the policy should be changed, on what edge cases should be allowed. Else you're just ranting and are going to change nothing
 
Zoe
@Ole A generally good idea when posting an answer is looking away from all the links. Is it still useful then? Yours wasn't. If you cna remove all the links and it's still self-contained, you have a proper answer. If you don't, it'll be deleted
 
re-ask a meta question
 
5:47 PM
Lundin is also missing, right @Jean-FrançoisFabre? :)
 
@Ole But they have context around the link. Link-only answers get nuked
@HovercraftFullOfEels The question is closed BTW as not seeking discussion.
 
Zoe
@Ole it would've been deleted either way. If not by a moderator, by community members. And either way, I have a feeling this would've ended up with a meta post anyway
 
I miss Lundin at least.
 
Ole
I'm not open to the idea that moderators deleting posts enhances the experience because those posts will simply sink if they suck. Anyone can post a better answer. The best answers float to the top.
 
@smileycreations15: I know it has been. I'm suggesting a new rantless question
 
5:48 PM
@ErikA Yes, exactly this is what I am talking about. I think your false accusation is far more harmful as if I would call you evil.
 
@Ole And again, that is not the platform you have signed up for.
20 mins ago, by Madara Uchiha
@Ole It is OK, as it is part of the platform which you chose to post upon. You can't pick and choose which parts of the policies you think should apply to you and which do not. If you have a concrete proposal to make a change to the policy (for example, to make it so moderators are not allowed to delete answers under some circumstances), I suggest you make a serious post here on meta, detailing your plan. But you will not do it, because you already know how that is going to go. And no, it is not the fault of the community. Deleting has its purpose, and calling it "rude" is a disservice.
 
Ole
SO can easily put in place a "Shade" on answers that are sinking if they want to make the experience more zen like and less noise like.
 
@Ole then you wish to change site policy -- make your case, and back it up
 
Ole
I just did.
 
@peterh Eh... I think your accusation of me making a false accusation is false
 
5:49 PM
@Ole No, you did not.
 
sorry, but no
 
Ole
Sorry but yes :)
 
Again this is degenerating into a rant. I'm gone
 
Zoe
@Ole What you have is a statement saying "This shouldn't be deleted because I posted it". You have no grounds, you have no meta posts, and you have a highly disagreed question.
 
(x) doubt
 
Ole
5:50 PM
BTW - I still think all of you are great.
3
 
Zoe
So no, you do not have any grounds, or anything even remotely decent to back up your statement.
 
Ole
We should probably try to do some real work now :)
 
@Ole and no disrespect to you or your contributions, but this question has degenerated and is not productive
 
When this message stack stop overflowing?
 
Honestly, what really makes me amazed here is that all you had to do is copy a paragraph of the blog post, and maybe an example snippet, and added them to your answer, and that would have made it into a great answer.
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5:50 PM
^
 
Zoe
What we have, however, is actual posts to back it up:
664
A: Are answers that just contain links elsewhere really "good answers"?

devinbLinks are fantastic, but they should never be the only piece of information in your answer. An analogy would be if you are standing at 100 Main St. and you ask where 98 Main St. is. A good answer would be "It is the next building over". points at building If you instead include a link, ...

 
Instead, you chose to go on meta, make a post that's 10% constructive and 90% rant, and continue to engage everyone in the comment section on your post, and here
3
And you have still not taken any of the feedback any of the users here given you into heart.
3
 
Zoe
@MadaraUchiha Most of the entire discussion has been "No, you're wrong" with no substantial proof of anything else
 
@Zoe no u
2
 
Zoe
@MadaraUchiha You can't use me as proof of anything though :p
 
5:53 PM
@Zoe no u
 
@MadaraUchiha no u, don't lie
 
Zoe
wait, what?
that doesn't make sense xd
 
@Zoe no u
 
@Zoe yes it does
 
Zoe
@MadaraUchiha Aw, thanks for noticing <3
@double-beep nej
 
5:55 PM
@Zoe no u
 
Zoe
I'm no?
Nested "no u"'s are confusing :]
The meta post reminded me of a SEDE query to write though ^^"
 
@yivi Do you know a good word, matching this description: "Harming others on irrational urges, without any benefit for anybody, to fulfill an unfulliable wish?"
 
@peterh You continue being rude. I have no desire on continue talking to you. Have a good day.
 
@peterh But "irrational urges", "without any benefit" and "to fulfill <anything>" are not facts. They are stories you told yourself about the motives of others whom you don't know.
 
Zoe
What context am I missing here? xd
 
5:58 PM
22 mins ago, by peterh
@Ole Btw, Ole! The mods are not so evil guys! Yes, that mod really deleted the post, but this link-only policy is very easy to circumvent: copy-paste the most important part of the remote content into your post, and so will it be okay.
This
 
@yivi Sometimes I've used "irrational antagonism" description for that, but here the problem was that most of my wonderful chat-partners had problems to understand the word "antagonism". I've used "irrational hostility", too, but the problem with it that calling a hostile user hostile is roughly so insulting, than calling an evil man evil.
 
Zoe
@MadaraUchiha Sooo essentially the type of stuff that escalates to suspensions and flags. Fun stuff
 
@yivi So, it seems our most wonderful MSO users, particularly the irrationally antagonistic ones, can't be "insulted", not even by the truth.
 
shall we reopen the question? It may better suit as a dupe of one of the many FAQ ones about link-only's
 
Zoe
You can still close a question as a dupe of a closed question
 
6:00 PM
@yivi But they are obviously allowed to bully good-standing users on the site and to their revenge downvote crusades, and knowing well the limits, they are practically untouchable, particularly if they are organized.
 
Zoe
And the question is still a rant
@yivi There's an ignore button - please use it rather than telling people not to talk to you. It's also significantly more effective on your end
Np
 
@yivi Btw, oversensitivity around some topic is a clear signature: the oversensitive person knows very well, that he is dirty. Having a clear conscience, people is just laughing on the "insults". They are only "harmful" if you know very well, that the critics are right. As you wish, I stop now.
 
Zoe
And we have flags!
 
yup
 
6:15 PM
BTW the question has now been re-opened.
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