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12:25 AM
@kealist it depends on what the travis script says .. and I don't think there is one setup. Perhaps @HostileFork can do this?
 
Build 0f12936 on 13-Jul-2017/21:46Z is now available for download. Please use debug builds and report issues. No warranty of fitness is implied.
These are the direct links for OSX x64, Win x64, Linux x64, and Android-arm.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:18 AM
0
Q: Simpler way to do repeated `back back series`

Geeky ISometimes, I tend to do next next a (repeatedly) to get at a particular element. This works well when you need 2 or less traversals. However, it gets cumbersome pretty soon. A loop is too much overhead for this simple case. Fortunately you can do at series pos in some cases if you know the posit...

 
 
1 hour later…
4:35 AM
@rgchris I don't think I'm using to-webform but
>> import <webform> ()

>> to-webform ['a 'b]
** Script Error: to-webform must return value (use PROC or RETURN: <opt>)
 
4:48 AM
0
A: Simpler way to do repeated `back back series`

Graham Chiuskip allows you to move forwards or backwards from the current position in the series. >> series: [ 1 2 3 4 5 6] == [1 2 3 4 5 6] >> series: skip series 2 == [3 4 5 6] >> series: skip series 3 == [6] >> series: skip series -3 == [3 4 5 6]

 
 
2 hours later…
6:54 AM
@ShixinZeng is sleep no longer in the lib context?
>> sleep
** Script Error: sleep has no value
** Where:
>> rebol/build
== 8-Jul-2017/14:09:10
 
 
1 hour later…
8:07 AM
@giuliolunati I've written a little script that displays the current electricity price for me. How difficult would it be to display that using sl4abox, and update it every few minutes as per the script. I want to use an obsolete phone and the wireless internet in the house.
 
 
5 hours later…
1:19 PM
@GrahamChiu right, it was not exported from **process** module
>> process: import 'process
== make module! [
[self: call get-os-browsers sleep terminate]
[
call: make function! [[command /wait /console /shell /info /input in /output out /error err return:]]
get-os-browsers: make function! [[return:]]
sleep: make function! [[duration return:]]
terminate: make function! [[pid return:]]
]
]

>> process/sleep 1
 
@GrahamChiu should work well, have you tried it?
 
2:20 PM
posted on July 14, 2017 by @draegtun Barry Walsh

@draegtun wrote: Following on from adding help #some-topic in Abusing help with tags? I was wondering about adding literals like help 'bugs ?? At the moment HELP with literals doesn't provide much enlightenment... >> help 'bugs 'bugs is a lit-word I was wondering we could hijack literals do same thing as (in this example) the BUGS function cur

 
 
4 hours later…
6:23 PM
@GrahamChiu What do you expect the outcome to be from that? As of now, lit-words are not recognized as keys—is it implied that you'd want to REDUCE the block?
 
what is this language
 
@VermillionAzure Rebol
 
@rgchris Doesn't tell me too much
It just goes over syntax and a few features. I care more about use cases, lineage and where it comes from
It looks a lot like smalltalk IMO. Is it inspired but ST?
 
@VermillionAzure Yes, it is inspired by SmallTalk.
 
@rgchris So what makes it different than Smalltalk or better?
 
6:37 PM
I don't know too much about Smalltalk.
 
@rgchris I mean, why use it over another language? And how is its performance and integration with other languages?
 
What I can say is that it's designed as a messaging language, comes packaged with network protocols and is self-contained within about a half-meg binary.
 
@rgchris So what does it run on? VM?
 
@VermillionAzure Rebol is a language that has high level aspects, but wasn't designed to hand-hold. Douglas Crockford, of JSON fame, was an early user...and said
 
Depends—Rebol 2 would run on 30+ platforms. Our current Rebol 3 work-in-progress runs on Windows, Mac, Linux, Android and a few others.
 
6:40 PM
What kind of VM is it?
 
> "Rebol's a more modern language, but with some very similar ideas to LISP, in that it's all built upon a representation of data which is then executable as programs. But it's a much richer thing syntactically. Rebol is a brilliant language, and it's a shame it's not more popular, because it deserves to be."
@VermillionAzure It's written in raw ANSI C89, and the goal is to have as low a footprint as possible. I like to say when people see a car, and you might ask "how big is that car" the answer is it doesn't really fit in the parking space...you need the factory that built it, also the factory that made the tires, also the housing for the employees that did all the work...it's bigger than that.
 
@HostileFork No, that's not what I mean
I mean, does it JIT? How much of it compatible with C? Does it have continuations? How does that mess with things?
 
@VermillionAzure Well, it doesn't run in any VM. Here's the evaluator: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/src/core/c-eval.c
@VermillionAzure Nope. But if you want to see cool stuff, I can show you some.
 
@HostileFork No, it's not. ANSI C (C89) doesn't allow for C++-style comments
 
@VermillionAzure Delete them if you'd like. the exceptions
 
6:48 PM
@HostileFork Hmmm
 
@VermillionAzure If you want to know what makes Rebol interesting, part of it is about throwing out the rulebook. It might be telling that my other favorite language lately is Haskell, and the two are complete opposite ends of the spectrum, while having commonalities in "attitude"
Rebol is a paintbrush. Haskell is an awesome 3D CAD program that monitors everything and holds you in check.
 
@HostileFork How does binding to C functions work?
 
@VermillionAzure Since we stuck to C89 "for the most part", the TCC compiler can be embedded into the executable. We can just use a string for the body of functions, if we wish: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/tests/misc/fib.r#L5
Can compile that without hitting the disk, even
 
@HostileFork So it's all dynamic?
 
@VermillionAzure Well, that's thanks to how TCC is written. Not particularly our work. But you can also load extensions as DLLs, or build them into the executable, or not build them at all. Our main corporate user is Atronix: atronixengineering.com/zoe
 
6:54 PM
@HostileFork Any videos or talks?
 
@VermillionAzure Well, I like the Red programming language talk, albeit one might think of it as a competitor. Same difference.
You could dismiss it as "more readable Lisp" if you want
But it's more bendy, cares less about "the rules", and that makes it bad (if you want formalism) and good (if you like seeing a language get bent into a pretzel to suit your whim)
 
@HostileFork I'm more concerned about integration, power, and usability
Today's the first time I'm hearing of rebol
I like the ideas but something feels off
 
@VermillionAzure It's an experiment. Here's the essay that kicked it off: forum.rebol.info/t/back-to-personal-computing/186
Very few people work on these projects, and they use them for their specific work, and develop the ideas without being that concerned with popularity.
 
@HostileFork Mmm I see. It's sort of a personal crusade language for productivity and battling complexity
 
@VermillionAzure Yup!
 
7:05 PM
But how does that show through in Rebol? How does it increase usability?
 
@RebolBot alive?
bot went down the other day :-( Well, I can copy/paste
>> parse to-string read vermillionazure.com [
    thru <title> copy title to </title>
    (print title)
]
VermillionAzure &#8211; Programming and things
>> parse to-string read vermillionazure.com [
    to <title> copy title thru </title>
    (print title)
]
<title>VermillionAzure &#8211; Programming and things</title>
@VermillionAzure PARSE is a dialect. Introducing PARSE
 
@HostileFork So how can I debug this?
 
@VermillionAzure I actually have a reasonable amount of work done on a debugger. I want it to be usermode, though. It's a bit of a trick to push everything into usermode (e.g. the console) but we're part of the way there
 
@HostileFork I've written a recursive-descent parser for Scheme and error-handling is a major issue that we never tackled yet
 
Since the PARSE dialect is recursive, it could be framed as a recursive application of a SUBPARSE function: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/src/core/…
Well, you ask a lot of good questions.
 
7:13 PM
@HostileFork Languages + software engineering productivity is my jam. I want to go to grad school for it too
 
I'm just a volunteer, here. But it is my scripting language of choice, so, I'm interested in where it does work.
 
@HostileFork I'm interested in finding a very productive and safe language for scripting/architecture building
one thing I find insufficient for current scripting languages is the lack of order and architecture you can do with them
 
@VermillionAzure Well, ok. Let me give you another example then.
Firstly, ELSE is an infix function
It completes its left hand side, if it evaluates to the absence of a value, it evaluates its right hand side.
+: enfix function [a [<end> any-value!] b [any-value! <...>]] [
    if set? 'a [ ;-- there's a value on the left, not <end>
        add a (take b) ;-- normal add of one right hand value
     ] else [ ;-- nothing on left, switch to variadic sum
        sum: 0
        while [not tail? b] [
            sum: add sum (take b)
        ]
    ]
]
Let me break this down for you
ENFIX is also an infix function
It grabs a SET-WORD! token on its left, and does an assignment to it with the value evaluated on its right.
FUNCTION is a function generator. RETURN is also not a keyword; it's FUNCTION that invents it
So FUNCTION is an "executable thingy" that makes "executable thingies".
It is arity two. First parameter is a block that is the "spec". Second parameter is the "body"
 
@HostileFork So it's a higher-order procedure got it
 
When you "enfix" something, all you're saying is, you get your first argument from your left... not your right
You can be arbitrarily high arity otherwise
 
7:18 PM
@HostileFork interesting
 
Even variadic
This is someone choosing to turn + into a variadic enfix function, which is able to look left and detect an "end", e.g. start of expression
Once they do, they get 1 + 2 evaluating to 3
But, if they say (+ 1 2 3) they'll get 6.
And IF is a function, ELSE is a function, etc. etc.
@VermillionAzure The evaluator grinds across it. But it's done in an interesting way. This is going to be useful background reading: blog.hostilefork.com/rebol-vs-lisp-macros
I know that Lispers might take one look at it and go "oh, FEXPRs, I get it": you do, in the sense that you know this stuff is going to be uncompilable. You don't, in the sense that you don't see the nuance with that attitude.
@VermillionAzure If it's not obvious, functions let the last value chain out
And while loops chain out their last body evaluation, etc.
 
@rgchris to-webform should be a procedure
 
If a WHILE loop never runs, it voids. So you can ELSE it even. The ELSE clause runs if the while loop doesn't.
 
@HostileFork Still confused. This is about macros, not enfix notation right?
 
@VermillionAzure No macros above, and none built in to Rebol yet. Though Red has them built in (updated, better link)
 
7:26 PM
Another thing: the notion of Lisp macros there are kind of weak IMO because they've evolved so much over time
Modern "Lisp" (Scheme) macros are almost declarative, and not procedural, and they're also hygienic. Particularly, Racket and Scheme support this
defmacro is old
 
@VermillionAzure Because I'm willing to go hard with c++ (top 1% on SO, FYI, for C++ tag) I don't tend to get bogged down on how fast my scripting language goes, so I'm okay if the interpreter churns a bit, if I like what it's doing.
Red folks really want to just use Red
 
@HostileFork Hmmm
 
@VermillionAzure Rebol's binding model is kind of a Rube Goldberg machine. My first question is why it works at all. My second question is, seeing that it does, how can we push it.
 
Looks like it has libRed
Sounds perfect
@HostileFork I think the blog post you linked me is wrong
Modern Lisp dialects have something similar to code + scope in the form of what is called "syntax objects"
It's used in the implementation of macros, specifically Racket. And Racket's macro system has been recently redone to make sure that socpe is statically determined, even in the presence of macros
 
@VermillionAzure Perfect except they have been taking an odd agenda. They got funding and are beholden to some interests there. I'm more interested in the platonic ideals of it all.
@VermillionAzure You mean the link is wrong or you disagree with the macro implementation in a language I do not speak for?
 
7:34 PM
@HostileFork He says that Red macros are different because they carry their scope around. Modern Scheme and Racket macros do too.
The implementations, at least, use them. It's not in the modern Scheme standard but it's known in that world
Macros, however, are required to bind to the scope that they're defined in, at least in Scheme. So that's how they make sure things resolve there
 
@VermillionAzure Worth pointing out. Red chatters are @ gitter.im/red/red
 
@HostileFork Wait a minute, you wrote that
 
@VermillionAzure Ok, well, FEXPRs exist. People already talked about this: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11587952
Unfortunately, it's still missing the subtlety of what's being done now
I'm very sure no one is doing what Rebol is doing now, because it's too weird.
Doesn't make it good, but I assure people, no one has done it... ever.
@VermillionAzure Rebol has a very unsophisticated idea in it. The idea is "definitional scoping". And this idea is, that each construct walks the stuff you give it, and slaps an invisible pointer on it. stackoverflow.com/questions/21964110
I've said it's like building your code from a Rube Goldberg machine. You might as well be making a MineCraft calculator.
And you get quickly into questions about how bad that dumb idea is. If every symbol has to obey its invisible pointer, does this mean that when I make a derived object and the symbol in the function pointed to the archetype, does object creation have to make a copy of the method, just so the body can have a new invisible pointer, to the derived thing?
Does every recursion of a function, have to arbitrarily pick which stack level the invisible pointer actually means?
These are the dumb implications of the dumb idea.
 
8:06 PM
@HostileFork Are you sure?
 
@VermillionAzure Relatively so.
@VermillionAzure I was the architecture lead on Intentional Programming at Microsoft Research, and I read a fair bit.
 
@GrahamChiu What does that mean?
(and doesn't answer my question)
 
@rgchris PROCEDURE and PROC are like FUNCTION and FUNC but force the result to void, whereas FUNCTION and FUNC complain (by default) if you give back void.
 
Ah.
 
I feel the complain-by-default change has been a good one. It prevents accidental results from dropping out and leaking implementation details, and such. But again, feedback welcome.
 
8:11 PM
It shouldn't be though—it should raise an error if the input block is not recognised.
 
@rgchris Raising an error, e.g. through FAIL, is not a return result
 
Yep, I changed that.
 
@VermillionAzure In any case, I told you some "dumb implications" and so, to me, the interesting work is the work on addressing the dumb implications. github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/wiki/…
 
Vermilion is a brilliant red
 
posted on July 14, 2017 by rgchris

When DOing a module with a LIT-WORD! value for TYPE and NAME, an error is generated. Looking at where the source breaks down, it appears to be related to the application of AS on said LIT-WORD! values: >> do {Rebol [Title: "Foo Bar" Date: 14-Jul-2017 Type: 'module Name: 'foo.bar] 1234} Module: Foo Bar Version: Date: 14-Jul-2017 ** Access Error: series is source or permanently locked, can

 
8:58 PM
@HostileFork What do I have to do if I get this error?
Script Error: confirm doesn't have RETURN: enabled for blank!
(and I want to return a blank!)
@ShixinZeng do you know where percent-encoding of urls happens?
 
@ingo Never noticed this function (consciously?). Looks like you fell out of the CASE, and it seems someone (me?) annotated it to return LOGIC!. I guess submit an issue and let the users have their say, you could make it a CASE? or you can add blank...I'll defer to those who use this and want to study its ergonomics.
        response: ask question
        unless with [choices: [["y" "yes"] ["n" "no"]]]
        case [
            empty? choices [true]
            string? choices [find?/match response choices]
            2 > length-of choices [find?/match response first choices]
            find? first choices response [true]
            find? second choices response [false]
        ]
Actually that would be a void. I don't see how that would return anything but LOGIC! or void
 
@HostileFork me neither, just while researching someting else I found an error, and then I got this.
(I added a to-value before the case)
 
@ingo Well file a bug here, because that shouldn't return blank.
Oh. Then it would return blank.
Well, it says return: [logic!] and you're hitting something that doesn't match the cases.
Then blankifying a fall through.
So it's complaining.
either say return: [logic! blank!] or force your result to a logic, not a blank.
If you think there's a good reason semantically to have a tristate return, then okay, send as PR and explain why. People will look at it.
 
@HostileFork return: [logic! blank!] was the missing link. Not sure about tristate myself, but that's how it was originally, so I just wanted to bring it into a working state again.
 
9:19 PM
@rgchris Can't to-webform use a string! for the first value in a pair?
>> a
== "foo"

>> to-webform [a "foo"]
== "a=foo"

>> to-webform reduce ["a" a]
** Script Error: to-webform must return value (use PROC or RETURN: <opt>)
 
@GrahamChiu Wasn't part of the original spec.
Non-word-conformant keys were represented by TAG!
Apparently that's not working either :(
 
Can you change the help then for to-webform or add a URL to more help?
 
There's a URL included in the source header. Would add it to function specs if you could reference the header from a module.
 
A common pattern I use is for a list of variables. Once I get the values, I want to pass it to the to-webform function.
the variables have the same name as in the actual webform
 
@GrahamChiu Can you give me the briefest example of this?
 
9:25 PM
sure .. it's the example I posted last night
let me find the url
 
to-webform ['a 'b]
@GrahamChiu This? ---^
 
so just feed a block of variables to to-webform and get the formdata out
 
Ah. That'd be very hard to detect as distinct from the current convention used by TO-WEBFORM. Would be easy to convert though.
Perhaps if it conformed to a strict block of GET-WORD! then it could be done.
 
It seems a duplication of effort on the user to be able to get the formdata if the names of the forms are used as variable names
I guess I should just preprocess it, but it would be helpful if it were all included
 
@GrahamChiu And yet has one difference.
 
9:32 PM
@rgchris oh sure, that's bad planning :)
I can fix that
 
@GrahamChiu As I said, I could also accept the [some get-word!] form and expand it.
 
So, an example of what you can accept?
 
This proposal would allow you to do:
to-webform [:fkey :email :password :submit-button]
 
Looks ... ugly :(
 
An alternative would be to bind your parse rule to an object, then just: to-webform object
 
9:36 PM
yep
 
Currently don't accept MAP!, need to add that.
Ah, could really use a Mechanize clone. Need to get an HTML parser up and running.
 
>> preprocess: function [b [block!]][result: collect [for-each value b [keep value keep get value]]]
== make function! [[b result: return:][
    return: make function! [
        ["Returns a value from a function." value [<opt> any-value!]]
        [exit/from/with (context-of 'return) :value]
    ]
    (result: collect [for-each value b [keep value keep get value]])
]]

>> preprocess list
== [a "foo" b "bar"]
 
Yep.
 
where list: [ a b ]
 
Think the object approach might be neater though.
 
9:41 PM
but in my none rebolbot example, I just have a list of variables - no parsing involved
so that means constructing the object which may not be as clear to casual users
 
params: make object! [fkey: email: password: submit-button: _]
parse page bind rule params
to-webform params
 
@HostileFork Nice!
 
feel free to do a PR :)
 
@GrahamChiu I think it's more clear if your object is named for what you intend to do with it than a random set of params.
 
@rgchris fair point
 
9:44 PM
@GrahamChiu Your code, your call!
 
@rgchris community code
 
That may be, but I'm not going to change community code unilaterally...
 
@rgchris PR ?
anyway, looking to best use your <webform> module code
 
It's tricky—my <webform> code is opinionated as to how I best feel this type of data should be represented. It may not best represent a wider idea of generic.
 
10:17 PM
posted on July 14, 2017 by IngoHohmann

Is tristate really the best way? not sure, but it seems like it was like this to start with. And it gives you a chance to check wether it was a real no, or anknown input.

 
 
1 hour later…
11:34 PM
@GrahamChiu Updated version of AltWebForm for Ren-C
 
@rgchris no syntax changes?
 
No—just fixes for now.
 
Ok.
 
Need to think about what to accept and how to accept it.
 
If it's all working then you could amend the lookup table github.com/r3n/renclib/blob/master/usermodules.reb
 
11:38 PM
Would you prefer I update the R3N version or update the lookup table?
 
@rgchris Lookup table
in case something breaks :)
 
11:53 PM
@GrahamChiu Any reason why the lookup table doesn't have a Rebol header?
 
@rgchris Doesn't need it?
 
@GrahamChiu Still good practice though.
 

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