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7:00 PM
and a gigantic waste of time for all involved
 
@DeadMG even if I agreed (with the part that this is replying to), I'm not sure what the point of putting that in an answer to that question would be
 
It's a really fancy HTTPS implementation.
 
@CatPlusPlus It sure is secure. It doesn't work. No download, no danger.
 
You cannot not have it.
 
How about "number of times: " + 42 causing a weird error? :) You must understand C-strings to see why that's wrong.
 
7:00 PM
@stdOrgnlDave The point is to help the questioner. The most effective way to do that is to get him to use a remotely effective tool to perform his task.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, maximizing security minimizes usability.
 
what tool do C++ programmers use to concatenate strings? std::string::operator+.
 
Woot. Got it. Slow as fuck.
 
the OP wants to concatenate strings, so show that.
 
@DeadMG Ewww.
 
7:01 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Assuming you have some Unicode hijinks worked out :P
 
Oh, wait, operator+ can move stuff now.
Not that bad, but still far from optimal.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Hardly an expression template based implementation, I agree.
 
but that's more of an implementation detail which you would only override if you were already a language expert
 
@DeadMG I'm sorry but you're stretching this a long long way. that advice is directly applicable for anyone dynamically allocating anything, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between type and type* is much better to correct than telling him to not even bother with learning it by doing strings
 
7:04 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes what's that notation called?
 
@DeadMG Even something as simple as a std::concat function would be appreciated.
 
@stdOrgnlDave The most effective way to solve the OP's problem is to use std::string.
 
@MooingDuck Some call it "rvalue this", but that's a bit... weird. Those are function ref-qualifiers.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes s1.append(s1.end(), s2.begin(), s2.end())?
he can learn about type* in a time and place when he actually needs to use it.
 
@DeadMG How does that work for seven strings?
The plan is to have such a std::concat variadic.
 
7:05 PM
and doesn't learn to horrifically misuse it by using pointers as arrays
@RMartinhoFernandes Very true. But IMO, expression templates would be the best solution.
 
So it can do a + b + c + d with a single allocation. An expression template would be neat, but I guess the committee would be a lot more weary of adding that.
 
all you're teaching him are bad habits he will have to unlearn later
@RMartinhoFernandes It would be a lot more backwards compatible.
 
@DeadMG please edit his question from "why is the compiler telling me this" to "please teach me computer science, what should I do instead of this and why, without even knowing the context of me trying to do this"
 
It kinda hurts things like auto&&.
 
@stdOrgnlDave It's called the XY problem. Look it up.
 
7:08 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Were you the one that, on some big-list question, suggested allowing operator auto be overloaded?
Because I thought it was a great idea.
 
the OP has a Problem X- his shitty MAGIC_BUFFER C-string code is awful. Problem Y is that one of his functions is busted, which is absolutely no surprise to anyone. Instead of asking about problem X, he asks about problem Y, even though X is the one that really needs addressing.
 
@GManNickG Hmm. Interesting. No, it wasn't me.
 
@GManNickG I have suggested it in the past. Haven't seen it on a big-list question, though
 
I once had some idea about explicit operator void, but I forgot now.
 
3
Q: Influencing automatic type deduction

DeadMGLet's say that I'm writing a function that returns some sort of proxy object, let's say for lazy evaluation or some other purpose. If I write code like auto x = func(); then x will be the type of the return value - not the type of the object that I wanted proxied. Is it possible to alter auto ...

 
7:10 PM
OMG, a renegade!
 
@DeadMG yes, but the problem Y you address assumes a lot about his motivation. perhaps he was doing this to learn about this kind of thing? perhaps it was a homework question. it is not my job to tell him to use std::string on his mystrcat homework
 
@stdOrgnlDave If he has a homework assignment set by an idiot professor, it's his job to tag that. If he does not mention arbitrary restrictions, they do not exist.
 
Is there still no way to detect endianness at compile time?
 
I cannot psychically deduce everybody's random professor's mindsets, and nor should it be done
if you tag C++, you get C++, not "What my professor thinks is C++".
 
@MooingDuck #if it away. <boost/config.hpp> does that.
 
7:12 PM
and if he was capable of using this stuff safely, he would not need our help with it
it is a terrible solution to a simple problem where a vastly superior in-built solution exists and he mentions no reason why he would not use the best tool for the job
 
@DeadMG that's my point. you can't deduce his motivation or needs. it's not like I furthered a misunderstanding on his part; I helped him overcome a fundamental weakness. it's the difference between returning a class Foo or a weak_ptr<Foo>. that's pretty important to understand.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I was surprised when answers in stackoverflow.com/questions/1001307/… said it wasn't possible. I'll keep searching
 
@DeadMG generally people do that to learn
 
@stdOrgnlDave C-strings aren't worth learning. Nobody should ever learn C-strings unless you're writing your own String class for some strange reason. Which there isn't much reason to do, since even if you need good Unicode support, there's ICU, and writing your own Unicode support is dumb, and non-Unicode is provided well by the Standard.
 
lol
Come on, you're pushing it too far now.
 
7:15 PM
C-strings aren't like assembly, where you have to have assembly to implement C++
they're a relic which is best buried and long forgotten and never, ever, taught to anyone
they are nothing but a giant pit of bugs and wasted time
 
@DeadMG, C strings are for C API.
 
@Abyx Still don't need to know them. c_str(), done.
 
@DeadMG they're useful only for understanding how string literals work
 
also, they are fast
 
@Abyx not really much faster than std::string,
 
7:16 PM
@DeadMG I don't disagree with that, but I don't agree with the "don't let them learn" approach.
 
@DeadMG and vector<char> to get string from a C library?
 
@Abyx or std::string
 
@Abyx std::string can serve all C-string interoperation.
 
@MooingDuck listen to @DeadMG, you shouldn't be writing your yet-another-unicode class, give up and use ICU
 
@MooingDuck char [N] uses stack-allocation, not heap-allocation. or maybe you suggest to use custom allocator?
 
7:18 PM
@stdOrgnlDave he's right
 
That's a corner case.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes There's nothing useful to know. More relevantly, if you were skilled enough to make a judgement on what to learn and what not to learn, you wouldn't need help learning C-strings. They're not complex.
 
@DeadMG in C++11 maybe, not in C++03
 
@Abyx no, use std::string
 
@Abyx What's wrong with C++03's std::string? In that specific respect, anyway.
 
7:20 PM
@DeadMG ok, how use std::string with void get_str(char* outStr, size_t outStrCapacity) ?
(in C++03)
 
@Abyx std::string str; str.resize(outStrCapacity); get_str(&str[0], outStrCapacity);
 
@DeadMG not guaranteed in C++03
 
Not contiguous in C++03.
Sucks.
 
that's not true
 
^^ that
 
7:21 PM
it is contiguous in C++03
 
@DeadMG not guaranteed
 
there's no other way to fulfill the complexity requirements
 
Oh, wait, that's what they fixed in 03.
 
ow, they really did?
ok then...
 
@DeadMG std::deque is not contiguous and has similar requirements, isn't it?
 
7:22 PM
At least they did it for std::vector. Not sure about std::string.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes really? I thought it was fixed in 11?
@RMartinhoFernandes fixed vector, not string from what I heard
 
@LucDanton Nope. c_str() is special.
 
@DeadMG Can't use c_str with char*.
 
you have to not only append in O(1), but you have to return a pointer to a contiguous buffer in O(1).
 
The result of c_str has no bearing on &s[0].
 
7:23 PM
c_str can return a copy.
 
but it does mandate what implementations you can use
 
Then why does c_str() return a const char* and not a char*? (Which is highly annoying.)
 
unless you really think some Standard library vendor maintained two copies of the internal string?
 
@DeadMG how to possibly know how to do this without knowing what a pointer is?
 
@stdOrgnlDave you have to know pointers, just not the details of c-strings
 
7:24 PM
@RadekdaknokSlupik Because you are not supposed to modify it.
 
@stdOrgnlDave If you need to interact with legacy C APIs, then learn how to use a single pointer at that point. Not C-string pointers-as-arrays null-terminated rubbish.
 
@DeadMG The Hell++ implementation is well known for being tricky.
 
@FredOverflow and why am I not? Because the internal storage is not guaranteed to be contiguous.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik The result of c_str() is contiguous.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Because the C string you get can be some temporary buffer. It wouldn't be clear what would happen if you changed the C string.
 
7:25 PM
@LucDanton There's a difference between, I dunno, a strange value for CHAR_BIT, and storing multiple copies of the string so you can return one for c_str().
 
But &str[1] - &str[0] is not guaranteed 1.
And &str[0] == str.c_str() is not guaranteed either.
 
It's all fun.
 
I have seen STL's lecture on this and he states that, even though it was not technically a requirement, there was basically no other possible conforming implementation
 
meh, C strings
 
or maybe it was Herb's lecture... or something.
 
7:26 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes the result is, but how std::string stores the string isn't specified.
 
@DeadMG What's your opinion on STL (the person)?
 
he has a kinda low definition of "advanced"
 
aside from that, I haven't really seen much of him
he doesn't show much that interests me
 
yes, @DeadMG thinks everyone should learn visual basic because it's a decent abstraction of a GUI
 
7:28 PM
lol
 
@stdOrgnlDave Never said anything like that. I haven't seen much VB, but from what I have seen, it's probably the awfuls.
 
Gosh, what?
 
as far as I'm aware, there's basically no such thing as a decent GUI abstraction
 
Apropos VB, anyone in this room started programming in BASIC? :)
 
@DeadMG but a much superior solution exists to the win32 api if you just want a simple GUI, so we should all use it
 
7:28 PM
not really
 
not even bother learning any other kind of GUI
 
you'd have to consider interoperation costs
 
mono is there to save the day
 
plus, it's easier to implement cross-platform GUI later if your existing GUI is in C++
 
.net is pretty cross-platform with mono
 
7:29 PM
@stdOrgnlDave That involves changing a whole language, not just picking a different GUI framework. You have to implement logic behind those buttons.
there's no point having a button if clicking it does nothing
when you consider language, you have to include all your needs, or if multiple, then interop costs
 
and I wouldn't write a GUI in C# because it'd be a bitch to interop with my C++ logic
 
@DeadMG not really, there is C++\CLI
 
so I guess you likes the C++
 
@Abyx Whose badness is only just topped by PHP.
 
7:31 PM
C++/CLI is just fuckin ugly
 
There's an open-source C++/CLI implementation! With extensions!
 
I don't think so.
 
Yes, extensions to the CLI extensions to the variant of C++ with all the Microsoft extensions!
 
is there a standard strlen variant for char16_t*?
 
I get it. you're a troll. I thought you had actual good advice to help me with but you're one of the most guru-ish gurus I have ever met. I worked at a company
where we were cleaning up a code-base that had most classes inheriting from upwards of 50 other classes and you're worse than the guy who wrote that. you only have one lens through which to view a problem and that's the only one you even care to try to look through. I wish you luck in life but you've officially lost all respect from me
 
7:32 PM
@MooingDuck char_traits
 
@stdOrgnlDave we told you multiple times not to argue with the puppy
@RMartinhoFernandes >.< of course. Thanks.
 
I don't see what the problem is. I think that inheriting from 50 classes is really bad too.
 
@stdOrgnlDave was that a rant to @DeadMG?
 
Right. You should inherit from 42 classes at most.
 
I think your problem is just that you can't judge the tools that you use and you have an irrational fear of not using them.
 
7:33 PM
@MooingDuck I thought you were just being funny because you said "the puppy"
 
@stdOrgnlDave only kindof.
 
a program is a piece of art, and the final product is what matters- languages and libraries are just tools
you judge them, you pick the best, you throw out the rest
 
wtfwtfwt\f "a program is a piece of art"
 
there's nothing to be attached to and no reason to go back to one that doesn't work
 
I'm close to rage quitting
hahaha
 
7:34 PM
some people have to learn the hard way that the C++ puppy is not to be argued with
 
@DeadMG That doesn't sound like art!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No, that's what you do to the tools.
 
Art can be great even with crappy tools.
 
Arrrg std::async y u block.
 
nobody's paintbrush has value because it's a paintbrush, it has value because of what it was used to create
if it can only be used to create crap, for example, C-strings, then throw it out and get a better tool
 
7:35 PM
@DeadMG youtube.com/watch?v=5GpOfwbFRcs please watch this and try to learn a lesson from it
 
Does std::future::~future block?
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik how are you launching your async?
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik You've destroyed the future?
 
@Collin it goes out of scope.
@stdOrgnlDave std::async([] (Socket sock) -> void { … }, std::move(socket));
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Don't think so.
 
7:36 PM
@RadekdaknokSlupik if you're not telling it to launch the thread, on GCC at least it probably is just going to defer it, that seems to be the default policy
 
You need std::launch::async
 
hmm still not working with std::launch::async.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik are you compiling with pthreads?
 
Yep.
At least when I set a breakpoint it says _pthread_start somewhere in the stack trace.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik wait did you say it goes out of scope?
 
7:40 PM
Yes.
Oh wait. I'm just calling std::async and I don't use the result.
Not sure what the rules are in that case. Does it get destructed immediately?
 
std::async creates an object std::future
std::future is the promise - when you call it, it either has the result (the thread was executed) or it doesn't and it then computes it
letting the std::future go out of scope seems like it shouldn't block
 
@stdOrgnlDave I disagree (on the side of safety), if you start a calculation in function A, it might be important that it finishes before function A ends.
 
he's not actually starting it though?
 
Here is the code in question.
 
thanks
 
7:44 PM
@stdOrgnlDave sounds like he's not finishing it. doesn't it automatically start when you call async? (I know little of the threading stuff, I'm guessing)
 
@stdOrgnlDave Not sure what the intended lesson is here. The guy's company blindly rushed into a new technology without considering it (whereas I gave a simple objective comparison of std::string and C-strings), and secondly, my statement of programs as art was only to give the comparison of the end result and the tools you use to make it- not as a blanket statement. I do consider programs art- and art that does not serve a purpose is bad art.
 
server.start() enters an infinite loop calling the given lambda for every incoming connection.
But when the future goes out of scope, its destructor is called. Will the destructor wait for the async operation to finish?
This is confusing me.
 
but only a madman would use suboptimal tools to try and produce good art.
 
so you're actually passing an std::future to server.start()
 
No, a lambda.
 
7:45 PM
@MooingDuck Not if you choose deferred.
 
std::async returns an std::future.
 
yes, sorry, too many conversations at once
 
And I'm not using the result of std::async.
I just want it the callback to start an async operation and return immediately.
 
you have to guarentee it start
 
std::launch::async | std::launch::deferred gives "Invalid operands to binary expression." :/
 
7:48 PM
Eww.
Sounds like a broken implementation.
 
Anyway, std::launch::async | std::launch::deferred is the default. I can leave it out.
 
I think you may have your {}'s mismatched
 
The destructor of future doesn't wait for the result. Any async call returns immediately.
Sounds like a bug.
 
Hmm…
> In std::async(std::launch::async, foo, arg1, arg2); the returned future is not assigned anywhere and it's destructor blocks until foo finishes.
4
Q: std::async won't spawn a new thread when return value is not stored

bamboonConsider I have lamba foo which just does some stuff and doesn't need to return anything. When I do this: std::future<T> handle = std::async(std::launch::async, foo, arg1, arg2); Everything runs fine and the lamba will be spawned in a new thread. However, when I don't store the std::f...

 
Where is that?
 
7:51 PM
this will block if it is not compiled with pthreads
 
Doesn't match what I saw in the standard.
 
oh, that question seems to answer it
 
Oh, nasties.
> The thread object is stored in the shared state and affects the behavior of any asynchronous return objects that reference that state.
Couldn't they make it clear instead of using tricks?
Dammit.
Well, if you want a fire-and-forget thingy, std::thread(F).detach(); should work.
 
just use an std::thread
std::async was not meant for servers listening to sockets
 
No potential for pooling, but there's some contention on whether the current wording actually allows pooling.
 
7:55 PM
I use std::thread and detach() and it works.
:)
 
why may I ask did you think of async in the first place?
 
checkin I just did: "Default IP is now loopback instead of Brad's IP address."
 
Imma try using std::promise/std::future with Boost.Asio (no threads) when I finally decide to get back to my BitTorrent client.
@MooingDuck lol
 
@stdOrgnlDave I never used std::thread before.
Only std::async.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik ahh, yeah, well read up on promises/futures, you'll see why that made sense for it to block. letting the std::future out of scope caused your thread to block because your thread was waiting for the promise to be fulfilled
 
7:58 PM
Hmm, wait not promise. packaged_task sounds more like it.
@stdOrgnlDave Not waiting for the promise. Waiting for the spawned thread to end. They made it so that the destructor of future destroys the spawned thread (see quote above). The promise doesn't really need fulfilling in this situation.
 
that doesn't make any sense though.
 
Requiring so would add the possibility of throwing from a destructor.
Either that, or the broken promise would be ignored, and the effect would be the same.
@stdOrgnlDave Yeah, it's weird.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes where's that quote from?
 
The standard.
§30.6.8p3
 
sigh, I need a copy.
 
8:03 PM
There's a link to a recent draft on my profile.
 
If the promise is broken in that situation, a broken_promise exception is indeed stored in the future's shared state, but it is never retrieved (only a call to get() does so).
 
it is definitely stupid
reading it
I guess I shouldn't criticize though, I wasn't invited to be on the experts panel
I've never liked std::async though
roflol did you just say LISP
 
8:27 PM
@stdOrgnlDave I happen to get internet for a couple days here in Jordan. 2 pings... What's up?
Can't stay and chat though. It's almost midnight here and I need to get up at 7am.
 
@Mysticial not much, I forget why I pinged you, sorry
 
@bamboon And here was my other ping. :)
 
@Mysticial sry to disrupt you, but I just pinged you because some guy wanted SSE optimization help and I told him you were the one to go
 
@bamboon Yeah I saw it. I just look a quick look at it - and... long story short... it's looks unsalvageable... lol
And why am I seeing yet another silly question atop the SE hotlist? lol
 
aaargh
had a dump without TP again
why oh why did I forget to buy more at the shop when I went earlier
I knew we didn't even have any at all every anywhere
 
Xeo
8:39 PM
@Mysticial: Where's the character from?
 
@Xeo Sora no woto.
 
Xeo
Interesting anime?
 
@Xeo Meh... not that great.
 
@Xeo it's great =)
 
@Mysticial oh hey, you changed your avatar. Someday I'll learn to look at names
 
8:42 PM
It really depends on whether it suits your genre.
 
kinda boring in first half, but it's great anyway
 
It was okay for me. But the plot is very slow.
Until like the last 2 episodes.
"visited 262 days, 1 consecutive"
 
Xeo
I recently started watching Maji de Watashi ni Koi Shinasai after playing the VN for a bit... made me laugh so much
 
aww... I had consecutive until a few days ago... maybe I should've left my AF on.
 
btw, speaking of avatars, @Xeo, what's on yours?
 
Xeo
8:44 PM
Accelerator from Toaru Majutsu no Index
A psychopath who just wants to be a hero. :>
 
AHHH!!! Google is showing all my search results in Arabic...
 
Xeo
lol
 
@CatPlusPlus thanks man! It works great.
@Mysticial Learn Arabic.
 
or use a proxy
 
Xeo
Or.. just switch the google language?
 
8:45 PM
or append &hl=en to the URL.
 
lol... anyways, I need to hit the sack. It's almost midnight here and I got an early morning tour with about 10 miles of hiking in the desert tomorrow.
And I still want some time to find Mars and Saturn since the sky isn't as polluted with city light as Chicago.
 
@Mysticial what are you doing there?
 
@Abyx Just a normal vacation.
 
Xeo
g'night
 
Anybody familiar with X programming? Which of the following should I choose and why? :)
__PTC_XLIB__       * This is the raw XLib target.
__PTC_XSHM__       * This is the Mit-Shm target.
__PTC_XDBE__       * This is the X DBE target.
__PTC_XDGA1__      * This is the X DGA 1.x target.
__PTC_XDGA2__      * This is the X DGA 2.x target.
__PTC_XVSHM__      * This is the XVideo+Mit-Shm target.
 
Xeo
8:56 PM
Choose "Run"
 
Nevermind, I just chose the first one and it works after linking with X11 :)
 
9:16 PM
What's up.
 
9:36 PM
Ohai
 
Hi Tony.
Oh wait I mean sehe. :P
 
I think it was DeadMG who started the ohai business. On his (then-)WideC web pages, nonetheless
 
nah, I think it was a comment
 
I don't think.
 
Jan 12 '11 at 22:00, by DeadMG
ohai sbi
Earliest match in Lounge<C++>
 
9:41 PM
didn't have Wide webpages back then
also, I told you like five times that I dropped the C :P
 
I'm going to design a language and I call it Narrow.
 
@DeadMG Plurg <:] What did you have for dinner? Can't you parse parens? It says `(then-)WideC` right there?
 
lol
here was me thinking it was more like (then-)(WideC web pages)
 
@DeadMG No. That would have required... the parens
Jan 31 at 21:55, by Tony The Lion
> Ohai and welcome to the Wide Language website.
That was the time, anyways.
Also, quoted quote fail
 
definitely still has no C though
anyway, the point is that I am right as always
 
9:53 PM
It's time to sniff some coke.
 
You shouldn't inhale soft drinks.
 
That doesn't apply if it's unsigned: "Unsigned integers, declared unsigned, shall obey the laws of arithmetic modulo 2^n where n is the number of bits in the value representation of that particular size of integer." - n3290 § 3.9.1. This is clarified in footnote 46 "This implies that unsigned arithmetic does not overflow because a result that cannot be represented by the resulting unsigned integer type is reduced modulo the number that is one greater than the largest value that can be represented by the resulting unsigned integer type."awoodland 18 mins ago
I'm not misunderstanding that quote right?
 
Yes. But overflow is still UB.
Let me check the context of the answer's quote.
Right. Your quote is complementary to his or hers.
I.e. the answer is correct but narrow in scope: "Is overflow UB?" "Yes".
 
yeah it felt like a big omission from that answer
since what you'd assume at first glance to be overflow isn't defined as such
 
Ell
Hi all
 
10:08 PM
I'm slightly curious about the "Unsigned integers, declared unsigned" bit now - when could an unsigned integer not be declared unsigned? Is that an exception for char which can be either?
@Ell hi
or does that have some crazy relation to casting?
 
You know what would have been neat in C++? The ability to allow someone to mark a type as signed or unsigned.
several of the builtin types take several symbols "long long" and no usertype can do such a thing
 
@MooingDuck you mean a user type?
 
@awoodland yes
unsigned bigint
 
That sounds like more pain than it's worth!
I'm not even sure how long long works in the grammar
 
@awoodland not if you just make signed/unsigned/unspecified some sort of implicit template parameter
@awoodland oh, allowing spaces? Yeah, that's not worth the trouble :P
 
10:14 PM
enum signedness { signed, unsigned }; template<signedness sn> class bigint {…};
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik that's the right concept, but it's wierd that we can only use signed and unsigned on certain builtin types.
 
You cannot have everything.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik I just said it would be neat. THere's no inherent reason it can't be done, other than it's probably not worth the effort.
 
long long sounds Chinese.
Ik ga slapen. It's 00:17 and I have a chemistry exam tomorrow.
 
Ell
Good luck
Mine went okay today :L
Apart from I forgot reacting mass calculations
 
10:20 PM
mass is always conserved in chemistry
of course, very technically, exothermic reactions release energy, which is mass, but the quantity is negligible and it's usually not considered
 
I made the 2011 exam yesterday and I had an 8/10 for it so it won't be a problem. See you guys!!1
 
Ell
Bye bye
 
bb
 
Ell
Ugh enggish exam tomorrow
Better start to kill a mockingbird
 
you know, the similarities between prisons and schools are amazing
 
Ell
10:27 PM
Haha
I've never had the pleasure of a prison
 
if you've been to school, I wouldn't be so sure
 
Ell
:L
 
@DeadMG more and more high schools are modeled after prisons in USA. They're built to be virtually indestructable, and make it easy to supervise everyone.
 
more relevantly
some idiot politician makes you study your country's irrelevant history instead of doing what you're good at or what you need to know, like basic finance
 
Ell
You choose your options?
Actually basic finance etc. Is good idea
But you can choose not to do histort
 
10:43 PM
I think teaching history is important.
You need to know where you went if you want to know where to go.
 
@Ell in many high schools, such classes are not optional
@Ell I was unable to choose not to do history in highschool
 

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