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06:00 - 19:0019:00 - 21:00

7:00 PM
sorry
 
Someone had a really nice redesign a while back, didn't they? and we were all debating the color
 
@NobodyNada Was it Ashish..?
 
@JanDvorak I hoped it wouldn't be just a nomination round ...
 
would a dedicated room to discuss the website changes be useful?
 
Do we have a list of the content that is desired to be updated? Pointers to where it resides on GitHub?
 
7:01 PM
@JanDvorak if you think it would need that much discussion, then yes
 
A set of Github issues would suffice, I suppose. That would also assign responsibilities to the repo contributors.
Win-win
 
@Kyll time to give that plopper a job
 
So do we discuss topic #6 now or not?
 
@Makyen basically all content, maybe excluding the tour
@πάνταῥεῖ yes
 
7:02 PM
There's always need to get documentation updated.
 
@BhargavRao I've been trying to get the time to do just that actually, never managed to
 
@JanDvorak that will work but it would need tasks for content, interaction and visuals
 
Not just yet another style sheet
 
Are you looking just for updated text? Updated styling? Or completely updating the site?
 
7:05 PM
I mean, the wording of some text are still as I wrote them initially
 
each of these can be a separate issue
 
@Makyen I think both
 
@JanDvorak yes, true
 
Should there be a comitee installed?
 
now we still need someone to raise the issues :-D
 
7:06 PM
Another room?
 
Who would attend to a room dedicated to monitor socvr.org for inaccuracies?
 
So we/I envision it would be easier for new SOCVR users to find their way around/get up to speed and help the regulars in the day to day operation.
@JanDvorak I would/could
 
SOCVRWR = SOCVR website reviewers :-)
 
:)
 
@JanDvorak Kyll?
 
7:08 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I have the Ministry already
 
@JanDvorak Let's try a room and see how it goes?
 
Perhaps: Open a Github issue per page, pin a pointer to the first one in the room for a week, then move to the next one being pined the next week. That would draw attention to each page in succession, with industrious people being able to work on more if they desire. Maybe a first issue which is organization??
 
It's a heavy burden fo small rodents ;-)
 
I won't stand in the way of that
 
@Makyen I like that a lot!
 
7:09 PM
same
 
So to conclude: Leverage GitHub issues, advertise them in the room. Agreed?
 
yes
 
Let's have a gist or a google doc where folks can recommend revisions
 
@TylerH why not just use GitHub issues?
 
7:10 PM
@NobodyNada That may be fine; I'm just not familiar with github
I thought gists were a github thing?
 
@rene and Co. You're free to take the sopython code base....
 
not a fan of Google Docs as if it was an issue tracker
 
@TylerH They are; I'm just thinking we should use issues on the website repo instead of somewhere else
 
Okay, so
 
That has user editable wikis and q and a stuff that could be used and it has users log in via a stack app and you can add/remove approved editors etc...
 
7:12 PM
Smokey's issue page is a good example
 
You all probably had enough timeouts by now. Thank you all for participating, it's time to wrap up and move on. This room will stay open while we keep discussing issue #4, then be locked until the next meeting. Conclusions will be published soon.
 
@JanDvorak I mostly included it because I know it highlights users' contributions in different colors so you can easily see who suggested what
 
Thanks :-D
 
@JonClements Ok, I will have to discuss this with @gunr2171 as he is hosting the stuff
 
@TylerH that could be a useful userscript for Github
 
7:13 PM
@JanDvorak rlemon from Room 17 has a dark theme for SO chat that does something similar, and you can pick which color for which user
 
You could take my chat user colorizer script as inspiration.
Mine assigns colors automagically
 
So again: There's a thin border of blaming a particular user, or it's just their fault posting OT questions frequently.
 
re the minefield thing: I don't think making requests needs to be a minefield. If we find that someone's accidentally posted two requests for the same user, we let them know, they delete it, and we can be done with it.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ wouldn't blame be accurate (not appropriate) if it's their fault for posting OT questions frequently?
 
Moving to 3+ or even 4+ should avoid most false accusations
 
7:15 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I entirely agree. Now, how can an external reader distinguish between such a user and harassment from a regular? THAT is the critical question.
 
how would you assign ownership to such an action without it being 'blame'
 
@Kyll delay between question and its respective CV
 
Note: The discussion for Issue 4 has significantly broadened beyond the narrow question of if we want to remove the link to the user. While, I'm fine with that, the broader discussion of what constitutes targeting (etc.) was not something the rest of the room users knew was going to be discussed.
 
@rene okay it's a light weight flask app and easy to setup - it's at github.com/sopython/sopython-site if you want to take a look. And obviously it's live on sopython.com in case no one's seen it.
 
@JanDvorak Still susceptible to user profile crawling accusation
 
7:16 PM
@Kyll That's the culprit, yes. Exactly what are my doubts.
 
@Kyll how do you crawl something that doesn't exist yet?
 
@Kyll we should just add a nice modal for everyone who visits SOCVR's chat or transcript that says "please familiarize yourself with our policies before you grab your pitchfork" :-) and whitelist room regulars to avoid it
 
You could mash f5, yes, but that's a different thing
 
@TylerH What about the torches?
 
torches are a DLC :P
 
7:17 PM
@Kyll torches are necessary for preventing creeper spawns so they're OK imho
 
@Kyll Not to mention tar & feathers
 
at least until later on in SO when we've started glowstone harvesting
 
creeper spawns are user targeting. We must let them roam free.
 
@JonClements thx, will pass it on
 
harvesting glowstone? Just soak some redstone in a barrel of ... what was that? I don't remember.
 
7:18 PM
@JanDvorak We would still need to define in what time-frame those 2, 3, 4, etc. cv-pls requests were made to trigger user-targeting detection. Is that in a 24 hour period? 12 hours?
 
@Makyen consecutive
 
New Proposal: discuss all issues by proxy of analogy and parable. If we avoid direct discussion of issues then we can skirt any accusations of untoward behavior
 
4/user/day is limiting
 
@JanDvorak no, because then a stalker just has to interleave requests
 
If someone abuses the RAW, we'll smack them anyways
 
7:19 PM
@JanDvorak Consecutive is very game-able.
 
I'd say something like 1 every ~3 days
 
if we want to go with /user/day, then 4 is limiting and bound to happen by accident, and 2/user/day is bound to happen by accident to everyone, everyday
 
If it happens by accident, no big deal -- just trash the message and move on.
 
Not that I'm doing so often, but sometimes I have a look at a particular user's profile and drill down to their questons. But usually I don't blame that at the SOCVR, but just put my regular down and close votes there. I'm aware of serial voting, but sometimes there are bad users that deserve that.
 
I actually can't understand why you have this problem, if you accidentally make 2 request delete one (if someone notice), who cares if question is closed or not... there are 100K that are not
 
7:21 PM
@Makyen I've asked what time we use, I recall having seen reports going as far as 12 hours back
 
@πάνταῥεῖ yeah, that's not allowed.
or at least posting the corresponding CV-plses isn't
 
@JanDvorak It's not allowed to judge a particular users question quality?
 
Everyone: Please keep in mind that we're not (as far as I know) talking about absolute limits, just auto-detection (with an auto-post? in room) for a human to step in and look at the issue, and perhaps inquire of the person posting.
 
@JanDvorak I mentioned that's not the instrument I use.
 
if we call out any case where the same person cv-plses the same person's question twice in the span of three days, how many false accusations do we have to diffuse? six per day?
 
7:23 PM
(Slightly AFK, already in another meeting, gunr style)
 
@Kyll Have fun :-D
 
If we want to expect the bot to err on the site of calling out needlessly, be sure to word the warning in a way that indicates that maybe, just maybe, they, in fact, did not do anything wrong after all.
 
@JanDvorak they shouldn't get to the point where they need to be defused.
 
@Makyen I even sometimes prefer to open a personal chat room with them.
 
3 mins ago, by NobodyNada
If it happens by accident, no big deal -- just trash the message and move on.
 
7:24 PM
^
 
ah, sorry, I meant defused
eh, even a trashed accusation can lead to a self-defense and a wave of rule discussions
by "defused" I mean steering those rule discussions
 
@JanDvorak That's valid for any content posted on SOCVR as fa ras I've seen =p
 
Yes. And I think that's a concern to be adressed.
 
We already have a number of instruments at hand to reach out a particular user, beyond the SOCVR.
 
@JanDvorak We can have rule discussions, as long as we're actually getting somewhere with them and not repeating a discussion we've had a dozen times before
 
7:27 PM
Yeah, these ones are bound to recur :-)
 
I understand our rules are limiting, and we could be more productive without them, but they're a necessary evil.
 
If it is necessary is it truly evil?
 
I'm not convinced they're necessary
@TylerH yes
 
@JanDvorak shall we discuss that some more, then?
 
@Adriaan just dropped in lets switch to ice hockey
 
7:30 PM
@Makyen just FYI, this is what the RO's will see when a user or post is targeted: i.stack.imgur.com/nfpVg.png we basically analyze what is posted and in which context after which we take action of leave it
 
@NobodyNada I don't think it would succeed. The room owners will do anything to avoid being accused, however unfoundedly, by meta.
 
@TylerH I don't believe that's really necessary as mentioned. If non of my comments or close votes are fruitful, I'd rather consider mod flagging before posting serial requests.
 
@rene if those autoflags are limited to slack ... I say go wild, we can tone them down later :-D
 
@πάνταῥεῖ sorry, I was just posing a metaphysical question out loud...
 
@JanDvorak because, in the past, we have messed up and been under the Meta spotlight
 
7:32 PM
@TylerH Metaphysics is just fine ;-)
 
@JanDvorak at the moment they are, also due to false positive rate
 
@NobodyNada I can sue anyone over anything
I'd suggest to keep them to slack
 
@JanDvorak Sure, if you have a good lawyer at hand :-P
 
Ahh... Mention gunr and they appear :-)
 
Not even that. I can sue anyone over anything and I'll ruin their day even if I lose the suit.
 
7:34 PM
Don't want to be a spoiler but are we still discussing anything related to the meeting?
 
And those folks on meta don't even have to pay the charges.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Doesn't take a lawyer. You can file almost anything for yourself. That doesn't mean you will win :-).
 
@JanDvorak Ruining so's day is just regular business when telling them the truth :-P
 
@JanDvorak We don't want to risk being sued for anything resembling a valid reason.
 
@Makyen I'm not after winning anything.
 
7:35 PM
I would suggest to not care about meta's bickerings until a CM comes to mark one as valid
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I understood that. I was trying to point it out to others.
 
@JanDvorak you mean like this one?
We had perfectly good intentions with that, but it looked awful in the spotlight
 
OK, but accidentally "targetting" users is a different beast.
 
OK. So, is there some in-room notification (i.e. beyond Slack's notice to ROs) still under discussion? Are we still discussing having some stated detection level (instead of the currently unstated exact detection level, just keeping the nebulous "don't target users")?
 
If someone posts five questions per day and all of them get closed, it's not because we're targetting them.
I don't think we want or need a stated detection level
 
7:40 PM
They'd be q-banned by the time they came to third, so don't worry much about those circumstances
 
@BhargavRao I thought you're not supposed to tell us that?
 
It's common knowledge by now
 
Mods also know what users know
 
@JanDvorak it is? where?
 
On meta :-D
 
7:41 PM
Mods have no idea (or extra info) about when a user will be banned or not.
 
@NobodyNada and our observations
 
Once I thought I knew what a streamer knew - and got TO'd anyways
 
So I come to the conclusion that topic #4 isn't really a thing?
 
By the conclusion it looked like the rules were going to get really strict.
 
@JanDvorak not really; just more formalized IMO
 
7:44 PM
We may see similar things like serial DV's and warn SOCVR users about that?
 
"no two cv-plses for the same user in the span of three days or we shout at you, and be sure to keep track of it yourself" seems really strict.
 
@JanDvorak That's not what I'd consider serial.
 
Neither would I, but it seemed like the upcoming rule.
 
@JanDvorak it was never meant to be conveyed like that.
 
Good to hear that
 
7:46 PM
@JanDvorak I don't believe we need one as mentioned.
 
hence topic #4.2
 
I think we are more looking to is this an accident or on purpose and can that be described in a rule
 
I interpreted it more like "no two cv-plses for the same user in the span of three days or we give you a friendly reminder and trash the request"
Which isn't really a whole lot different from what we've done before
 
I predict many trashes in that case
 
@JanDvorak is that a bad thing?
 
7:48 PM
yes
 
@JanDvorak we really only have 3 or 4, maybe 5 max per day
 
also, "friendly reminder" is bound to YMMV
@rene yeah, I call that "many"
 
yes, my reminders are never friendly
 
user4639281
@Jan generally we do give friendly reminders, it isn't our fault that people explode into balls of fire when reminded.
 
@JanDvorak oh, ok
 
7:49 PM
@TinyGiant eh, not sure ;-)
 
user4639281
Mainly the people who need the reminder, are doing it on purpose
 
@JanDvorak A trash doesn't mean "you're bad; go sit in the corner;" it means "oops, let's delete the message and forget about it"
 
user4639281
As far as I have observed
 
@NobodyNada it feels more like the former, though
I will note that I'd rather not be nicer to undeserving masses than to the regulars
 
user4639281
I would rather be fair to everyone
 
7:51 PM
Human interaction is hard :-P
 
Personally, I'm happy with a solution that allows me to keep not paying any attention to who the the user is when I make a request. I don't want to have to be looking back over my requests going: "Did I previously post a cv-pls request about this user in the last X-time?" I don't have a problem with being notified, or asked about why, I'm posting such requests.
 
@JanDvorak Maybe we need to discuss that then. It looked like that to me at first as well
"Trashing" a message is practically the same as just deleting it
 
@Makyen I simply set some users to ignore if I see them getting a little cv-pls-happy
I've only had to do it one or two times ever
 
trashing accidental two-cvs-for-same-user seems excessive
 
@JanDvorak why? It's just adhering to the rules
 
7:53 PM
Trashing shouldn't be seen as a punishment; it should be more like a "wafflez."
 
active cv-pls lines don't get moved until they are completed
 
Also, it seems like accepted practice to cv-pls a self-dupe and the duplicated post. This would ruin the practice.
 
1 hour ago, by Kyll
@JanDvorak In which case we ignore the warning.
 
@TylerH yeah, creating rules and then saying "they're rules" to defend the rules doesn't defend the rules.
 
@JanDvorak obviously we have created these rules more or less based on discussion and reasoning
so adhering to the rules is not done for its own sake
but for the sake of why we made the rule in the first place
 
7:54 PM
@NobodyNada we're still janitors, not law-enforcement
 
Yeah, but you can't argue "these are the rules" while creating them.
 
@JanDvorak But now we're discussing trashing, not the rules themselves (as far as I could tell)
 
trashing is part of the rules
 
but we're discussing the "trashing" part specifically, and we're building it on top of what we've previously discussed
 
7:55 PM
"don't target users" is reasonable. "Don't post cv-pls the same user twice in three days" is not, even if we acknowledge the rule was broken by accident.
 
@JanDvorak Auto-trashing anything other than obvious abuses feels excessive. I was happy when I understood that a human/RO was going to be notified, and could then handle it on a case by case basis. Are we moving away from that?
 
We're not auto-trashing
 
even manual trashing for auto-detected accidental infractions seems excessive
 
IMO it's not excessive
4 mins ago, by NobodyNada
Trashing shouldn't be seen as a punishment; it should be more like a "wafflez."
 
@JanDvorak let me defuse the three days: we monitor up to 24 hours max and if there is a time gap of several hours we are much less eager to take action.
 
7:58 PM
And yet it yields 3+ false positives per day?
I'd rather not start trashing those.
 
@JanDvorak self-dups tend to generate multiple cv-pls requests because the dup (or dups) has/have to be closed, and the original question is often closable too.
 
I know, that's what I'm saying
 
@JanDvorak :-).
 
@JanDvorak not 3+, 3 or 4, max 5, from the top of my head but I already asked for exact stats.
 
I'm surprised 3/day still generates 3 FPs/day.
 
8:01 PM
by FP, do you mean accidental targeting?
 
user4639281
It is fairly easy to determine when a someone is going through a user's profile and requesting close votes for all of their questions. It is also fairly easy to determine when someone just happens upon two bad questions from the same user while reviewing posts. It is extremely difficult to determine when someone is trying to fake it.
 
That means three different regulars post each day, while not targeting anyone, three cv-plses for questions by the same user.
 
user4639281
Whoa.... forgot to scroll down. Way out of context
 
I'd say, don't try to monitor the non-obvious cases. If someone on meta does whine, we can say "yeah, the ROs missed that, and it's clear why".
Or perhaps, if you want false positives, fine, but don't trash over them.
 
what do you mean by false positives?
 
8:05 PM
false positive = same user posting a cv-pls on three different questions of the same other user without intending to
 
@JanDvorak IMO that's not a "false positive," it's an accidental violation of the rule
 
It seams like there are metrics which could be defined (including filtering out cases of self-dups, etc.) (actually, detecting, going through a profile vs. through new/active posts should be reasonably easy to detect). I'm not sure if it's worth the effort to do so when what we are talking about is informing a human that something should be looked at. Reducing false positives on the part of the auto-detection reduces the effort which the humans need to spend looking into each case.
 
@NobodyNada if you can violate a rule accidentally, let's not have that rule.
 
we've already discussed the importance of that rule -- it keeps us away from trouble on Meta
 
If someone is burning through a user's question list, we'll notice even without a script. If someone is trying to obfuscate it, they should be responsible for it on meta, not us.
We didn't have a reasonable way to track it, simple as that.
Did a CM tell us to monitor our members and prevent them from doing it? No.
 
8:09 PM
Then our case is that we're messing up on accident, not on purpose.
Is that going to make us look a whole lot better?
 
yes
It's not us messing up.
 
@NobodyNada I think the issue is that it's not necessarily violating the rule. The rule is "don't target specific users". The rule isn't don't post 3 cv-pls requests about the same user in X-time. The rule inherently requires knowing the reason behind the user finding the questions to cv-pls.
 
^
The current rule is "don't target users". The current rule is doing just fine. Having the rule is all that meta wants from us. Don't fix what isn't broken.
 
@JanDvorak If someone posts targeted requests, all of us are targeting the user, whether on purpose or not.
 
no, we're not
 
8:12 PM
Sure, "we targeted a user on accident" is better than "we targeted a user on purpose," but neither of those look good.
 
@JanDvorak it will be seen like that. Pardon for jumping in. I can see both points.
 
> Do not post multiple successive moderation requests for posts of the same user. It will be considered as targetting a user which is explicitly forbidden.
 
user4639281
^^ I agree with that
 
"multiple successive" is much harder to do accidentally than "twice in the same day".
comma before "which", though, I think
 
That's copied and pasted from the rules
 
8:14 PM
@JanDvorak Yes, there should be a comma.
 
@JanDvorak I don't think that implies they must be unbroken; it just means "close together"
 
@NobodyNada Doesn't mean it's right ;-)
@NobodyNada "close together" is still a different thing than "in the same day"
very different
 
"In the same day" is the script's detection threshold
18 mins ago, by rene
@JanDvorak let me defuse the three days: we monitor up to 24 hours max and if there is a time gap of several hours we are much less eager to take action.
 
Spam your internal flag queue as much as you like as long as it doesn't result in trashes or rule bickerings :-)
I don't think there's a need for the queue, but w/e
The queue only makes us responsible for something we shouldn't be
so, the conclusion is to keep status quo?
 
An accidental infraction doesn't need to be a big deal; it should just be "trash if they're too close together and move on."
 
8:20 PM
status quo then
 
is that good or bad?
 
I can live with status quo :-)
I was worried of trashes for duplications spanning several cv-plses.
 
OK, then can we move the remainder of the discussion to the main room then? I want to close the room for now.
 
@JanDvorak yeah, and I probably went too far with the 3 days thing
@rene Sounds good; I'm not sure there's a whole lot left to discuss
 
OK
 
8:23 PM
I the conclusion status quo x5 then? :-)
 
Yep !
Thanks everyone for participating
 
@JanDvorak Sure; pretty much "trash if ROs decide could look bad; leave it otherwise"
 
room mode changed to Gallery: anyone may enter, but only approved users can talk
 
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