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1:47 AM
@HostileFork I don't think we are now. But it's rebolsource.net safe?
 
@GrahamChiu Well, I think we should have snapshot copies of the r3-alphas for various platforms, perhaps even in the repo
 
@HostileFork probably the Linode instance is corrupted
Or someone has hacked into it
 
@GrahamChiu And use those instead of wget'ing. But I hope sanity prevails and we don't end up with Rebol Perfect Diet Dining In Cleveland. Well, who knows, if they keep up their web presence maybe we should move the code over to the cafe.
 
@HostileFork sure. We need to secure our supply line. Avoid single failure points.
And rebol source is owned by Andreas who is MIA
 
Though if Rebol is to declare a new headquarters, you'd think it would be photographable.
 
1:52 AM
Though I guess it's just a matter of recompiling sources from rebol/rebol
 
The Rebol Cafe is invisible to Google Cameras
Funny, if it were funny.
(Note: not actually funny, nor is Rebol Perfect Diet.)
But just more evidence that I guess I need to go to Cleveland.
OMG. The Invisible Rebol Cafe has a Steve Jobs quote printed on the wall, apparently! I'm famous for thinking Steve Jobs sucks :-)
This is a semi-informed opinion, e.g., I think Steve Jobs sucks based on what would be considered hearsay. Fairly well-supported hearsay, but not primary sources, e.g. we have not met.
There are also some videos of him. And I would say far from considering him a thought-leader, I consider him a jerk.
Would never say he was dumb, but.
Jerk.
"A smart person who steered the world in a twisted, totalitarian way that had less to do with empowerment and more to do with control."
 
2:21 AM
So do you want to upload a R3 binary so we don't need to wget?
 
 
1 hour later…
3:38 AM
@GrahamChiu Seem to recall someone had the foresight already to port Red source to Rebol 3. All should be well.
 
3:58 AM
@GrahamChiu Sent Mac 2.7.8 binaries.
 
@rgchris The most significant point about the Red port is, that attention was given to the mechanisms by which routines could be twisted. I could make a YouTube video about how wacky the retriggering in R3-Alpha was by which FIRST became PICK -> 1
The Ren-C evaluator was designed trying to allow for more composability, and I keep pushing for definitions.
How does pathing relate to PICK, how does it relate to GET, etc.
@rgchris I am wondering what you think of get 'undefined-thing joining the blankifying chain train, with get* 'undefined-thing being the fundamental upon which GET is based in its blankification.
This idea, of having userspace composition of the more "fundamental" and "information-bearing" primitives, is feeling good to me
It's more information to know that the undefined thing is undefined, vs a blank. It's more information to know that the SELECT*'d thing is not there vs selected and a blank, but most people don't care, hence use the "masking" userspace wrapper
So, this to me, helps with that problem of people who were wanting block/VALUE to give voids before, even if they didn't expect it from objects. Now that blocks give the error, it's nice if get 'block/VALUE does not
Prudent?
 
@HostileFork Would have to think about that. Might not be so bad...
Can't say I like the -* naming scheme. Can't they be contained in a context allowing use via binding? with primitives [select [strict mode] 'not-there]
 
@rgchris My idea is that get-value is today's GET, e.g. fail if undefined.
@rgchris How often do you think you, personally would use the * versions?
My impression, from what you say, is you wouldn't be their primary customer.
 
Not so often.
 
Well, if you don't use them, why care what they're called? :-)
 
4:09 AM
Even so, I think if they were referenced in context—it'd be more readable if they weren't strewn with *s.
@HostileFork Still likely to try and read source by someone that does.
 
I have been using them, and so far I actually have to say I'm liking it, I hated /any and /opt for instance
You don't really need them unless you're writing a "generic"
I read the * as "special" or "see note below"
foo* => foo(special, see note below)
 
This may be irrational, but I'm protective of the default word space as well.
 
@rgchris You were going to use get* for something else?
One thing about the * operators, is that, I feel they really never mix with multiplication
I think some of these things, you just have to use and get a feel for before you have a totally grounded opinion.
 
@HostileFork No, but my sense is that it should reflect the common usage of the language. Although SELECT*, GET* would be fundamental primitives, they are somewhat specialist in userspace.
 
I actually never felt good about /opt
It's been one of those "I didn't like it enough to really, honestly, justify breaking compatibility with GET/ANY" things. It wasn't really that much better.
So it was a nagging thing on my mind, like, this isn't better
But I think this reformulation is actually better
 
4:15 AM
Was /OPT around in R3 Alpha?
 
Nope, it's because I thought GET/ANY didn't make /ANY sense
 
Don't recall ever encountering it.
 
Added in Ren-C
 
Ah. Yes, /ANY isn't great.
 
But I never actually pulled /ANY from the vocabulary, an emulation kept it alive
You didn't need to run in r3-legacy to get/any
Which is a sign of my uncertainty
 
4:17 AM
How would new GET mesh with GET-WORD! behaviour? Would get 'is-a-value-from-the-void be equivalent to :is-a-value-from-the-void ?
 
Never felt good about get/opt or set/opt
Nor get/any or set/any
@rgchris No, :is-a-value-from-the-void would be GET*, and we will have some pretty big mechanical issues if that weren't the case.
But I have thought about it, yet thinking about it is part of what made me feel that the literacy of get 'is-a-value-from-the-void looked kind of fine
It's legible, short, and fits with those other "friendly" operators like SELECT or PICK
Which are blankifying wrappers for their native, more-informative forms
I'm trying to build a summary or thesis of the why of this being a way of working, and I think it can be summarized by saying that while computers carry binary data, humans concerns rarely intertwine the ways to handle data presence with the way to handle data absence.
 
any [get 'is-a-value-from-the-void type-of :is-a-value-from-the-void]
vs
any [get 'is-blank type-of :is-blank]
 
@rgchris I don't understand the intent, what if the value is a logic false
type-of :is-a-value-from-the-void gives you BLANK! as the type of a void
Already well designed
 
Whereas type-of :is-blank and type-of :is-false will return a datatype!.
Wasn't a question, just musing on behaviours.
 
@rgchris Still don't understand, that's actually part of what I think is done right.
I think blank being the type of a void is clever.
 
4:26 AM
Yep, that's what I was expecting :)
 
It finesses a few things.
And I mentioned I'm a little bit wary of GET being so cavalier blanking things
But, then I proposed get-value
Which isn't too ugly, and I think a blanking GET blends with a blanking SELECT, blanking PICK, etc.
I'm really compromising here :-)
Maybe some would feel compromising too much, but, I do like consistency.
And it does suggest pick-value, select-value, etc
We have, I think, given in to the idea that casual users want a conditionally false thing, based on rare dealings with LOGIC! or BLANK!
Those who are particularly interested in falsehood or blankness pay
And tying into my greater point, I think it's because, Rebol is leaning to a world where true and false booleans are less interesting points than value or non value.
That if you look over all the codebases, the typical person is more interested in "a value or not" vs "true or false"
You cannot completely dismiss boolean logic in a programming language, but it's a matter of where you put your emphasis.
Rebol leans heavily to the "value or not", and stylistically that has been enabled, but there hasn't been a formal statement or way of systematizing the philosophy across the board.
 
I suppose it is odd that PARSE never returned FALSE.
 
Well, a related point.
I tend to think of ANY and ALL as more the, "no value" on failure exemplars
And I have some perpetually wild ideas to avoid using an extra value cell to get all [() 2 ()] to be 2, that drive me a little crazy.
@rgchris Anyway, I am digging around and really do think the formulation with GET* and SET* with usermode wrappers is an improvement. If you can think of challenges, let me know.
It will be a much more lenient GET
But look at what people wanted, they wanted (apparently) block/VALUE to be a blank if value is not in block... or at least, code was thus written
 
Wait, PARSE does return false. Been away from the console for a few days...
 
I'm suggesting if you want that level of lenience, use get 'block/VALUE, and it doesn't look too bad. And since it doesn't look too bad, you don't have to feel as bent ouf of shape that block/VALUE errors when VALUE is not in block.
@rgchris I want to make parse continuable and integrate with the debugger, this will influence the return result
 
4:46 AM
Not the same direction as Red's callback facility then?
 
 
1 hour later…
5:50 AM
@rgchris Seems rebol.com binaries are all available afterall via web archive
 
 
2 hours later…
7:54 AM
@HostileFork He has lead the company to produce pretty attractive computers, but at a price: freedom to adapt these and the story goes he was not always the nicest person in the world. Another person made into a saint but was a wolf in sheepscloths. youtube.com/watch?v=V4nCaxHN-cY
They should do the true story about Steve as well ;-)
@GrahamChiu :-)
 
8:55 AM
I want to pose this question on SO, but I am not sure if it will be considered to be too broad: "Where is the boundary between a language and the operating system". When for example a C program that writes data to a file is compiled, what code is in the executable file, is it just the code to call the OS write?
 
9:06 AM
The answer will vary, and what you call the "OS" is going to be very fluid
What's "the OS" and what's "a library". Most programs take some number of libraries for granted. You can use various tools to dump the dynamic dependencies of executables, to know what "libraries" they are using
The C language itself doesn't specify quite how it achieves what it does. It has a "standard library" but the question of how the whole thing comes together in terms of linking is the choice of the person who implements the compiler/OS.
The lack of prescriptiveness in how C accomplishes its observable effects is the reason things like emscripten can be written and still obey the standard.
33
Q: How do system calls work?

xyzI understand that a user can own a process and each process has an address space (which contains valid memory locations, this process can reference). I know that a process can call a system call and pass parameters to it, just like any other library function. This seems to suggest that all system...

 
 
2 hours later…
11:17 AM
print "Hello World!" #rebol
 
11:30 AM
Thank you for this explanation Brian! Very enlighting as usual.
So the gcc for the selected platform will probably guide the detailing used for the instructions.
 
12:01 PM
@HostileFork Is that link to vfprintf.c correct, it leads me to vprintf.c not to sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=stdio-common/…
 
 
2 hours later…
2:10 PM
 
 
2 hours later…
4:16 PM
@iArnold SE.SE might be the place for such a question, Fork's response aside.
@RebolBot tweet {print "Always nice to hear from you, @helloworldb0t!" #rebol}
@RebolBot alive?
 
 
2 hours later…
5:53 PM
@giuliolunati The security of Telegram has faced notable scrutiny; critics have claimed that Telegram's security model is undermined by its use of a custom-designed encryption protocol that has not been proven reliable and secure, and by not enabling secure conversations by default. Telegram has also faced criticism for its wide-scale use by the terrorist organization Islamic State. (from Wikipedia)
 
6:44 PM
@MarkI oh. Well, if terrorists use an insecure channel, that's good for all of us! ;-)
 
6:58 PM
@rgchris rebolbot down for a couple of weeks now
 
Ah.
 
7:18 PM
Apparently Carl didn't know rebol.com was down so hopefully we will see it back up again soonish
But this latest incident demonstrates that we really do need to cut our apron strings from rebol.*
We talked loosely a couple of weeks ago about achieving parity with r2. I think we need to concentrate on this and fork somewhat agrees.
4
So, if you need things from R2, what's the single most wanted functionality that is missing from ren-c at this time for your needs?
If we can decide that, then @HostileFork will have some direction in what to work on next ( after travis builds of ren-garden ).
I'm going to say ODBC, and I think ODBC was near the top of @Brett's list as well.
 
7:33 PM
@GrahamChiu Can't you wrap ODBC with FFI already?
 
@ShixinZeng I don't really know how the FFI interface works :(
In r2 we had load/library and we were up and running
Maybe I just need documentation
 
@GrahamChiu here is a simple example of wrapping qsort from glibc
 
@ShixinZeng While you're here .. what's the long term plan for support of r3gui?
Is that going to be dropped? Or maintained?
 
here is a tool that auto-generates bindings (FFI wrapper) of a C library
2
@GrahamChiu We (Atronix) still depend on GOB! and DRAW dialect, so we will make it work on Ren-C
2
 
@ShixinZeng these are OS independent?
@ShixinZeng But r3gui is at a higher level
 
7:41 PM
I understand, but we're not using it, so I don't think we're going to spend much time maintaining it
 
@ShixinZeng Sure. But to get it going with current ren-c? Is that on the table?
 
@GrahamChiu Are you asking about the c2r3 tool being OS independent?
 
@ShixinZeng yes
 
Like I said, we will make GOB! and DRAW work, but not sure how hard to bring up r3gui, if it's not too hard, I will try
@GrahamChiu c2r3 is using libclang, which is available on both linux and Windows, but I've only tested on Linux
 
@ShixinZeng Ok.
@ShixinZeng libclang is available by default on windows?
 
7:47 PM
@GrahamChiu no, it comes from Clang, and you have to download it
I'm using it as a C parser
 
So, it's only used the once to derive the wrapper
and endusers don't need it
 
Interestingly, the tool itself calls into libclang, which is a C library, via FFI, and the libclang wrapper was generated by the tool, so it kinda bootstraps
@GrahamChiu Correct
 
Ok, so a lot of this information is not really known by many of us since we aren't C developers :(
Anyway, I have created the FFI stub for our wiki github.com/r3n/renclib/wiki/FFI
 
There is also a gtk-demos
 
@all it would be great if everyone, no matter what skill level, could pitch in and help document the new features of ren-c
@ShixinZeng there's a lot of work you've done which isn't well known!
 
7:53 PM
Yep, I'm not good at advertising my work :(
 
@ShixinZeng well, the more we know, the more likely we are going to attract new users and developers IMHO
So, are these bindings tested regularly?
Do we know if they all work?
 
@GrahamChiu unfortunately no. We didn't have FFI enabled on Travis until a few weeks ago, and there were no testcases in the testing frame for it
But occasionally, we test it, and I knew that @HostileFork had run gtk-demos a few times
 
Ok, now I know where to look I can try and upskill
And I guess we too can use gobs and draw if worst comes to worst
 
@GrahamChiu Yes, just speak up if you have any question about C function wrapping
 
@GrahamChiu If Gobs and Draw are there, don't see why R3GUI wouldn't work, Ren-C language changes and missing DELECT notwithstanding.
 
8:02 PM
And feel free to help update our wiki ... as the ancestors said, 千里之行,始於足下
 
:)
Speaking of Wiki, I started this page about the struct! that is used in FFI a lot
 
@GrahamChiu very enlightening! ;-)
 
Need a wiki to track the various wikis!
 
8:21 PM
@GrahamChiu would you comment on import remotely issue?
@rgchris have you seen httpd PR?
 
8:43 PM
I do now—will take a look at it.
2'000'000'000 ?
(my arbitrary number antennae are twitching)
 
@rgchris quick and dirty way to disable pre-chunking
 
I don't suppose there's a way to accept the changes without the tab/space switch?
 
@rgchris I can change that before you accept
@rgchris done.
 
9:25 PM
Pushed changes, thanks!
Or merged. Whatever. Will migrate to spaces one day, perhaps—my editor is easier to navigate with tabs though. Sorry all...
 
9:42 PM
@rgchris Also for me tabs were more handy...
@rgchris Please test if troubles are gone!
 
Hm, still get 'Program terminated by uncaught signal #13' on multiple refresh. Will try to test a bit more attentively when I get some time.
Also, seems I need to return a value from my action block or I get an error.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:38 PM
>> x: 10 set [:a] [x]
== [x]

>> a
== 10
SET has a feature that it will fetch words like that, which is a strange feature. But it seems to me if you do this, your result should be [10], not [x]
>> x: 10 set quote :a 'x
== x

>> a
== x
It seems also that if this is a generic feature of SET then it should apply to a plain GET-WORD! as well. One bad thing about the block feature producing for instance [10] is that the block would have to be generated from scratch, because it is distinct from the input block
Is this weird idea actually worth having? Does anyone use it? Should SET just be simpler and perhaps people who want to do something odd like this invent it themselves?? (I vote "not worth it")
 
11:57 PM
@rgchris can you trap all writes
 

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